Im guessing there are plenty out there that can get by without sacrificing excessive amounts of time to medical school studies. I was just wanting to hear stories of you or friends that are capable of this. Do you just get by and have more fun in life or do you use your talents to really achieve highly?
Anyone not have to work that hard in med school?
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I worked hard but not so hard compared to my classmates but my grades suffered. I was always the guy who Just passed the exam.. I studied just enough to pass the exam. In the middle of pharmacology, i freakin took a vacation 3 states away for like 4 days. I passed but my grades suffered and my board scores.. all passing on first shot.. were marginal.. and my residency site reflected this.
why does it make me sound pathetic
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Nah, I have to work pretty hard. It's not always the most time-consuming thing, but it sure is mentally draining. It's harder to study for 8 hours than it is to landscape for 12, that's for sure.
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Another person's best might only be the minimum necessary to pass. Does it really matter how hard someone tries really? The results are what matters most. Whether someone suceeds by being smart and lazy or just a hard worker the results can be the same.
Anyway my goal wont be to barely pass, but I am questioning a scenario more along the lines of whether it is worth it to spend extra time to honor classes or just settle for a p or hp. At a certain point studying provides diminishing returns and a great deal of time could be used to marginally raise ones grade.
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i know that a lot of people bust themselves to honor but honestly, it's not worth it. i mean, i'm a pretty hard worker and all but killing my sanity and being part of the rat race to get a weeny "H" just doesn't cut it.
plus several M4's I've talked to have told me that honoring doesn't really weigh much into residency placement. so although it would be in our best interest to really know our stuff for ourselves and our future patients, but what do they know?
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DBR, i can see where you're coming from. I have a few friends, who just pass, and they are fine with it. I also have friends who study as much as the ones that just pass and honor everything...although those are far and few between. Hm...me...i fit right in the middle...i study hard, but i also know that life is more than just sitting on my arse 12 hours a day staring at the book and looking at SDN every few...
I also agree with you that not wanting to have a "life" at all is somewhat pathetic, but it's what some people choose to do. I mean, it's everyone's own prerogative. Oh, and btw it doesn't give anyone the right to say you don't deserve to be in med school because you are just passing and don't mind just studying enough to pass...jeez...come on people get real...
For most of the people I talk to, the time they spend studying vs the time they spend not studying depends on their level of comfort in how well they want to do. Yep.
I also agree with you that not wanting to have a "life" at all is somewhat pathetic, but it's what some people choose to do. I mean, it's everyone's own prerogative. Oh, and btw it doesn't give anyone the right to say you don't deserve to be in med school because you are just passing and don't mind just studying enough to pass...jeez...come on people get real...
For most of the people I talk to, the time they spend studying vs the time they spend not studying depends on their level of comfort in how well they want to do. Yep.
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I have to agree. Plus no matter how hard you work, there is always something hanging over your head.
I can never gauge how much I have to study just to pass. I kinda envy those people who can. In all honesty, if the professors wanted to be jackasses they could very easily make a test that would fail everyone.
Seriously...? I cant tell if you are being sarcastic or not.
I dont think it's unreasonable to want to maintain some semblance of a life. Get over yourself.
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Hmmm let's see....
Past 3 weeks I haven't studied at all. I missed about a week's worth of lectures too.
Anyway, I usually study maybe at most 2 hours/day on regular days. Of course I hit the studying up hard before exams, but that usually only occurs about a week before an exam. For most exams, studying 2-3 days in advance was fine.
Past 3 weeks I haven't studied at all. I missed about a week's worth of lectures too.
Anyway, I usually study maybe at most 2 hours/day on regular days. Of course I hit the studying up hard before exams, but that usually only occurs about a week before an exam. For most exams, studying 2-3 days in advance was fine.
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I'm the kind of guy who goes to all the lectures and small groups, but otherwise only studies "smart, not hard." Often I try to review the day's lectures for a few hours and make notes/study sheets/flashcards as needed, but I'm never one of those hardcore people who studies for 8 hours every day after class. Before the exam, I step it up to make sure I do well, and I've honored everything so far. I think that some of the success comes down to understanding the exam writers for each class. I'm still surprised at the number of people in my class who never expect certain questions that some of my friends and I KNEW would be on the exam. Everyone approaches the material in a different way.
Anyway, I don't think some of the higher-end figures posted on SDN (8-10 hours studying every day, more before an exam) are typical of US med students. A few hours a day during "the grind" along with being hardcore during "the crunch" right before an exam will often suffice.
Anyway, I don't think some of the higher-end figures posted on SDN (8-10 hours studying every day, more before an exam) are typical of US med students. A few hours a day during "the grind" along with being hardcore during "the crunch" right before an exam will often suffice.
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You obviously haven't done 12 hours of landscaping before...
Why do people go to college?
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why was this moved to pre allo?
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Just shut up if you're ignorant about someone else's personal life. I've done as much as 15 hours of landscaping in a day. I've worked for my dad every summer from 8th grade until the summer after M1.dude arent you in an anesthesiology residency?
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While I say I work a lot less than other people in my class, by no means would I say I'm not working "hard".
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It really depends on what you want to do.
I think most people try their hardest for those first couple of tests and after than people decide whether all that work is really getting them anywhere in terms of class placement. Some people decide to just relax until Step 1, others focus on the boards early, still others do research or get clinical experience instead of studying.
Eventually people adapt their studying to fit around the rest of their lives.
I think most people try their hardest for those first couple of tests and after than people decide whether all that work is really getting them anywhere in terms of class placement. Some people decide to just relax until Step 1, others focus on the boards early, still others do research or get clinical experience instead of studying.
Eventually people adapt their studying to fit around the rest of their lives.
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In my experience, the people that muse about "a life outside of medicine" are the ones that don't even get into a single school.
A couple anecdotes: the people sitting at my table at the student luncheon where I will be going to school were all excited (including myself) about our student clinic in which we get to volunteer our time to help people without even the most basic medical coverage. This is time we're talking about here outside of studying books, learning clinical skills, taking tests, etc. They weren't wondering how much work they'll have to do to get by so they could take a surfing vacation, they were wondering what they could do to contribute to healthcare now, with their free time, in addition to studying to be good doctors.
If you don't love the idea of medicine then I think you should consider doing something else. In the end its a job and it will be far from perfect, but its a more grueling job than most others, so why anyone would pick a grueling job over something more easy when they're only looking for a paycheck so they can go surf is beyond me.
A couple anecdotes: the people sitting at my table at the student luncheon where I will be going to school were all excited (including myself) about our student clinic in which we get to volunteer our time to help people without even the most basic medical coverage. This is time we're talking about here outside of studying books, learning clinical skills, taking tests, etc. They weren't wondering how much work they'll have to do to get by so they could take a surfing vacation, they were wondering what they could do to contribute to healthcare now, with their free time, in addition to studying to be good doctors.
If you don't love the idea of medicine then I think you should consider doing something else. In the end its a job and it will be far from perfect, but its a more grueling job than most others, so why anyone would pick a grueling job over something more easy when they're only looking for a paycheck so they can go surf is beyond me.
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IMO, this doesn't sound like a voice of reason. In my free time, I plan on chilling the %@$# out and enjoying life, not contributing more to healthcare. An anecdote of mine: after studying for a immunology class throughout the day, I threw my books underneath my bed and proceded to beat my roommates' asses in halo till 2 AM. Thereafter, I slept in till noon.
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I apologize for the quick assumption - very interesting you think the studying is harder though.
different strokes for different folks, i guess
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IMO, this doesn't sound like a voice of reason. In my free time, I plan on chilling the %@$# out and enjoying life, not contributing more to healthcare. An anecdote of mine: after studying for a immunology class throughout the day, I threw my books underneath my bed and proceded to beat my roommates' asses in halo till 2 AM. Thereafter, I slept in till noon.
I've definitely gotta echo this sentiment. Some people do devote everything they have to medicine (and often they burn out because of it). But at the end of the day, part of being a professional is the ability to draw the line. As a physician you still have the right to grow as a person through varied experiences and to have a family, etc. If you *don't* take time to unwind, relax, and enjoy life now and then you are going to end up being miserable and ultimately be a bad physician. Here we counsel patients about stress and lifefstyle and recommend ways they can step away from their jobs and enjoy life--I certainly am going to practice what I preach.
I have played counter-strike until 2am online during medical school and I have gone out on *gasp* a Thursday night. Some people really have to work their tails off every day to pass. Some people are shooting to be #1 in everything and work every day. But a lot of the rest of us have a good sense of how we study and learn that even better during 1st year, make adjustments, and still have free time. Heck, while I was on my medicine clerkship doing about 72 hrs/wk, I still worked out just about every other day and hiked a couple times a week.
You do not have as much free time as you have had before medical school. BUT YOU DO HAVE FREE TIME. You just have to take all those things you did before medical school and prioritize a few of them. Don't worry about losing your "life" when starting medical school. There will be weeks where you literally just study nonstop, but there are also a lot of weeks in between.
At the end of the day you realize that medicine is about treating patients and that what you need to do is whatever is necessary to be a good physician. This means taking some time to really learn this stuff as best as you reasonably can and sometimes putting in extra hours to make sure someone is okay. You have to be ready and willing to respond to emergencies. But you also have to retain that humanism and well-roundedness that comes with being a person who is able to set boundaries, plan their time, and have fun and keep a positive attitude.
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Hmm, a statement like that would keep you out of medical school. At my school, we look for people that specifically will endeavor to maintain a life outside of medicine.
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I wonder if you'd be surprised to find out that some of them embellished their work/activities section in order to show you what you wanted to see. I didn't say that successful applicants proudly proclaimed their dedication to studying and volunteering to the exclusion of everything else in interviews or on the app. And of course I didn't mean that people do NOTHING but medicine -- I bet I can beat you at counterstrike btw (which is a terrible game anyway, quake is better) -- but if you don't like the idea of spending a lot of time on medicine, then it's probably not for you.
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As a patient, I would probably want a doctor who is a good communicator which is a trait independent of the first two years of med school as far as evaluation is concerned. Step 2 CS (taken later) is pass/fail. I'd want my primary care physician to be able to send me to the best specialist available if I needed one. If I need surgery or a procedure, I probably want the doctor who had the most experience with cases like mine. We pick this up in residency just like 90% of everything that makes a person the best doctor possible. I don't think that doctors recall the sort of minutiae covered in the preclinical years to the same detail expected of them as medical students.
The amount of work that you need to do to reach your goals varies by memorization speed, extent of exposure to the material in years prior, and the school's grading system. If a student does well on board exams but doesn't care to commit local professor X's research on the allosteric binding site of compound Y to memory, I'm fine with that.
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Depends on three things:
1. How you define excessive
2. How comfortable you are doing family practice/peds many miles from the sea
3. How naturally brilliant you are
I go to a decent but not top 10 med school and most folks I know work incredibly hard. Personally, I work a lot harder than I did in undergrad. I usually work late into the night most weeknights and one weekend I work, the next weekend I try to take off. I stll have time to go running, but that's about it for hobbies.
I go to a pass/fail school. The problem with just doing barely enough is that you'll end up not learning the material well and get ho-hum board scores. If you want to do an uncompetitive residency in an undesirable location, this is not a problem. If you want to do even a moderately competitive residency in a decent town, this can spell trouble.
I'd guage myself somewhere in the middle of the pack in terms of intelligence. There are some brilliant minds at my school who could probably coast a bit, but most of these minds are attached to great work ethics and they put in hard hours. Med school material is not hard, there's just a lot of volume.
Folks who want to cruise through med school will either have a rude awakening or somewhat limited career options.
You will have to work far more hours than a 9-to-5 job just to get by. You will still have fun in life, but it's going to be in more limited doses than before.
Many premeds do not take the time to really enjoy themselves in undergrad, which is a crime in my book. It truly is the best opportunity of your life to have a good time, especially if you're going down a medicine path. Med school is definitely not going to be the place you can coast.
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I think your original reply did come across a lot stronger than this. Everyone tries to grind into you the idea that medicine is really hard and is really hard work because it is and those of us who have already started down this path don't want others to follow if they really won't be happy. But I remember being afraid that I was going to have no life when I started medical school and this was not at all true. Some students really do have to work incredibly hard all the time just to get by, but not all of us, especially if you learn how to really study. I started off strong, working hard in my classes before realizing I was just going to burn myself out. As a result, I got some honors and some passes both in the basic sciences. Clinically, I got a pass, lots of high passes, and a few honors. But I got honors in the areas that I wanted to pursue most. I would say that I worked hard when I needed to, but not all the time. And there were plenty of times when I was downright lazy. Still managed very competitive board scores and a strong application for residency. And I think that I will be a good doctor.
As for counterstrike, in my prime I would have pwned you. I got to the point where I could play without crosshairs. Not sure I'm proud of that though.
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You know, I liked the OP's question, because I was kind of wondering the same thing. I also wanted to know, how many people, like Tired Pigeon, I'm going to run into. I would really hope the majority of medical students don't judge me lazy based on wanting to have some sort of social life.
Why would anyone not want things to be easy? I thought humans generally preferred things when they were easy.
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I threw up in my mouth a little.
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IMO, this doesn't sound like a voice of reason. In my free time, I plan on chilling the %@$# out and enjoying life, not contributing more to healthcare. An anecdote of mine: after studying for a immunology class throughout the day, I threw my books underneath my bed and proceded to beat my roommates' asses in halo till 2 AM. Thereafter, I slept in till noon.
2 am. You're an amature.
Killjoy.
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If you're going to hand down judgment on anyone's use of time, free or otherwise, make sure you think a little bit before you speak. Helping people with no medical insurance, for example, is not "pathetic". Or studying more because they need to in order to get the right score.. some people want a top residency, and that's what makes them happy, who are you to judge?
My friends and I get drunk every week, but I'd be more inclined to call that pathetic (even though I do it) than anything anyone does to contribute to healthcare.
Edit: And there's no way you could beat me nevercold I WAS NASTY. Which is also something I'm not sure I'm proud of.
My friends and I get drunk every week, but I'd be more inclined to call that pathetic (even though I do it) than anything anyone does to contribute to healthcare.
Edit: And there's no way you could beat me nevercold I WAS NASTY. Which is also something I'm not sure I'm proud of.
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I'd just like to throw in there that I do think some of it is hard. Leukemias and lymphomas are bad enough, and then when you toss in lymphoid leukemias, it actually is fairly hard.
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You kids should all pick up some Call of Duty 4. The graphics are amazing.
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Agree. It's not rocket science, but is probably on par with many upper level college science course, except that the volume is absurdly increased. Nothing will be beyond the grasp of the typical matriculant, but it will take a lot of investment of time to get it all. Drinking from a firehose is a nice analogy.
While there are folks who don't do stellar in med school and still become doctors, I don't think many people try to take it easy and coast. The problem with doing that is that at least at some schools the margin for error is really small -- it's way too easy to fall below the pass line and have to repeat things. At many med schools you will see former classmates falling to the subsequent class list (at a price tag of another year's tuition), because of failing things. It's hard to fail out of med school (because you get lots of second and third chances), but really not so hard to fail a course or two. At some schools as much as 10% of students will fail a course, and these are people who got mostly A's in college. Most people find they have to work a lot harder than college just to pass, let alone do well. The volume is such that it takes a ton of time just to make sure you've looked at everything a couple of times before the test. It takes a lot more than that to know if well. It's frequently the situation where you go into a test knowing you cannot possibly know everything, and are hoping you know enough to do alright; in this respect it is very different than college where if you studied hard enough, you could know everything fairly well.
Also after second year, you start rotations, during which you will be in the hospital as much as 80 hours a week during some specialty rotations, and are expected to go home and read and look up things at the end of the day. Nothing much you can do to coast during such rotations.
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I have to agree with Law2doc. As a second year medical student, I can tell you I work my a** off and still perform in the lower third of my class. Before I got here, my GPA was 3.97 and I had only a few B's. I have learned that for me to pace myself, I have to budget time for each class, my family, and myself. This retains my health and sanity and ultimately will serve my patients well.
The problem with having to be the best, is that there is always someone who will perform better. I find that my favorite doctors (my mentors), are the ones who learn to balance their personal, spiritual, and professional lives, take an active interest in their patients, and also commit to their health. It is much more about attitude than it is about grades.
As far as working hard - if you don't you WILL fail. No one gets through medical school without working hard, regardless of the grades. We have a few "sandbaggers" who say they don't study, but I see them in the library at 11 pm still going at it. There is just no way the volume of material can even be read, much less understood, if you don't spend the time. So if someone tells you they "passed" in medical school - that means something. I don't think you can compare it to "passing" undergrad or high school or something. Even Kaplan tells us to shoot for 65% for boards. 65% is usually flunking anywhere else. For boards, Kaplan tells us this should be our goal.
The problem with having to be the best, is that there is always someone who will perform better. I find that my favorite doctors (my mentors), are the ones who learn to balance their personal, spiritual, and professional lives, take an active interest in their patients, and also commit to their health. It is much more about attitude than it is about grades.
As far as working hard - if you don't you WILL fail. No one gets through medical school without working hard, regardless of the grades. We have a few "sandbaggers" who say they don't study, but I see them in the library at 11 pm still going at it. There is just no way the volume of material can even be read, much less understood, if you don't spend the time. So if someone tells you they "passed" in medical school - that means something. I don't think you can compare it to "passing" undergrad or high school or something. Even Kaplan tells us to shoot for 65% for boards. 65% is usually flunking anywhere else. For boards, Kaplan tells us this should be our goal.
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I think we've all seen way too many people naively (sure it's a word) swaggering in with the wrong mindset end up splashing into the rapids thrashing around in the water blaming other people for not saving them or the water for being so darn cold and the waves for coming too often or the current for smashing them into rocks to eventually drown and become forgotten to have any sort of tolerance for someone who refuses to swim their ass off to get to shore.
Sorry pal. Enough people sink to scare the **** out of the swimmers.
Sorry pal. Enough people sink to scare the **** out of the swimmers.
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