SomedayDentist

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Hi:

Just wondering if anyone has ever put a "stop payment" on a secondary application fee? Two of the schools have sent rejections letters then a MONTH later cashed the check. Both times I've thought about stopping payment because the stop payment fee of $12 is a lot less than the secondary fee!
 

snoopdoug

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Sounds unethical to me. And probably illegal as well.

SomedayDentist said:
Hi:

Just wondering if anyone has ever put a "stop payment" on a secondary application fee? Two of the schools have sent rejections letters then a MONTH later cashed the check. Both times I've thought about stopping payment because the stop payment fee of $12 is a lot less than the secondary fee!
 

Paulie Walnuts

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but i dont know anyone who actually did it. unethical, i dont really think so. it's your money. the fee is for processing the application. stopping the check, it's telling them to stop reading the application. you, don't get in. they, stop considering you. they're out $75, POOOOOR dental school! if you got in somewhere else, stop your checks. doesnt hurt ANYBODY, period. (sorry for the rant... i think it's unethical from a business perspective, that the entire process costs so much money in the first place)
 

BeachLuvr

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I don't think that's a good idea. Just because it could look like you wrote bad checks...which would be a bad reflection of you, which might get around...haunting your rep. forever...and ever... :rolleyes: . This might just be one of those situations where you suck it up and take the blow...

Dental school app. process costs a buttload, but again...think of it as a long term investment.

Well, I'm off to get my immunizations today. Owww :(
Suckin' it up and takin' like a man....err...a woman...? Let me just go
 
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SomedayDentist

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BeachLuvr said:
I don't think that's a good idea. Just because it could look like you wrote bad checks...which would be a bad reflection of you, which might get around...haunting your rep. forever...and ever... :rolleyes: . This might just be one of those situations where you suck it up and take the blow...

Dental school app. process costs a buttload, but again...think of it as a long term investment.

Well, I'm off to get my immunizations today. Owww :(
Suckin' it up and takin' like a man....err...a woman...? Let me just go
I agree with you all but I was just wondering if anyone had done it. I think if someone was to do that.....and then apply again the next year to the same dental school is would hurt you as an applicant.
 

agaex

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Paulie Walnuts said:
but i dont know anyone who actually did it. unethical, i dont really think so. it's your money. the fee is for processing the application. stopping the check, it's telling them to stop reading the application. you, don't get in. they, stop considering you. they're out $75, POOOOOR dental school! if you got in somewhere else, stop your checks. doesnt hurt ANYBODY, period. (sorry for the rant... i think it's unethical from a business perspective, that the entire process costs so much money in the first place)
Actually, not only is it unethical, it's also illegal to do so. When you write a check to someone, there is an agreement that is made between you and the other party promising payment for their goods or service. Stopping the payment is equivalent to stealing. It doesn't matter how poor the service or results are, or how rich the other party is, the agreement stays. After the agreement, you're free to request repayment, etc.
 

crazy_sherm

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I was under the impression that dental schools don't really start looking at your application until they receive the fee for the secondary. Once they receive your check, they trust you will honor the amount you have promised them, and will begin reviewing your application. The outcome of that review is part of what you are paying for. If everyone started canceling their checks because they didn't like the outcome of the school's decision, then pretty soon, schools will start requesting cashier's checks or money orders.

Therefore, I don't think it would be appropriate to stop payment on the check just because you didn't like the outcome. What if they had admitted you but not cashed the check yet? Would you feel like canceling the check still? It would be one thing if the school shredded your application and didn't bother reviewing it at all, but it sounds like they did what you paid them to do, even though it wasn't the acceptance you hoped for.
 

jk5177

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Along the same lines. I turned in a deposit for NYU, but apparently they haven't made use of it. Now, what if I get accepted into a school of my choice, I'm thinking of stopping the payment for that 500$ that was holding my place. I don't think there would be much risk because they can't damage my rep in the future since I'm not going to there school, and I don't ever plan to go there. What do you guys think? It is 500!!! And that is no small amount.

Ethical? It is my check, and I have the right to stop payment on it anytime I wish. It is their responsbility to make good use of it asap and not wait around.
 

agaex

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Hmm, this question was addressed before. You can cancel your check if you like, just know that it is both unethical and illegal to do so. There is a binding agreement between you and the other party when a check is written for good and services rendered, or to be rendered.

jk5177 said:
Along the same lines. I turned in a deposit for NYU, but apparently they haven't made use of it. Now, what if I get accepted into a school of my choice, I'm thinking of stopping the payment for that 500$ that was holding my place. I don't think there would be much risk because they can't damage my rep in the future since I'm not going to there school, and I don't ever plan to go there. What do you guys think? It is 500!!! And that is no small amount.

Ethical? It is my check, and I have the right to stop payment on it anytime I wish. It is their responsbility to make good use of it asap and not wait around.
 

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jk5177 said:
Along the same lines. I turned in a deposit for NYU, but apparently they haven't made use of it. Now, what if I get accepted into a school of my choice, I'm thinking of stopping the payment for that 500$ that was holding my place. I don't think there would be much risk because they can't damage my rep in the future since I'm not going to there school, and I don't ever plan to go there. What do you guys think? It is 500!!! And that is no small amount.

Ethical? It is my check, and I have the right to stop payment on it anytime I wish. It is their responsbility to make good use of it asap and not wait around.
Hey....I was in the exact same situation last year, and I did the stop payment as soon as I got into another school. Like you said, its your cheque and $500 is nothing to ignore. Trust me, nothing will happen...I happily took my $500 and used it for my summer vacation in Central America right before dental school started, and I couldnt be more happy that I didnt let NYU cash that cheque.

Dont listen to agaex...this guy is a total idiot. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who encouraged people to take on more debt, and thought by going to BU, he would be able to drink coffee with the academic elite. So you can imagine that he is financially inept and just a simple ******.
 

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Dr.BadVibes said:
Hey....I was in the exact same situation last year, and I did the stop payment as soon as I got into another school. Like you said, its your cheque and $500 is nothing to ignore. Trust me, nothing will happen...I happily took my $500 and used it for my summer vacation in Central America right before dental school started, and I couldnt be more happy that I didnt let NYU cash that cheque.

Dont listen to agaex...this guy is a total idiot. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who encouraged people to take on more debt, and thought by going to BU, he would be able to drink coffee with the academic elite. So you can imagine that he is financially inept and just a simple ******.
It's really unecessary to attack someone personally for a comment they made. Of course, you can stop a check. It is certainly unethical, however. Ethics are one of the foundations of healthcare and something that every dentist I have worked with stressed to me. If you aren't sure about schools, then you are going to have to lose some money. Just remember you'll earn it back quickly! :)
 

TucsonDDS

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I don't think it is ethical to stop the payment on a check if the school declines you. Although it costs us buttloads of money to apply it also costs the schools money to process the applications, let alone the "insufficient funds" fees that they will most likely receive from their banks. Believe me, I don't think it is ethical for AADSAS to charge so much for the crappy service that they provide but that is out of our hands. How would you like it if you were charging patients diagnostic and consulting fees (which didn't cost you any more than time), they went with cheaper quote from another dentist and decided to cancel the check they wrote you. You would be out the time and the 15 or 20 bucks that your bank would charge you for the returned check fee. It just isn't ethical and in reality you are steeling from the school which will just drive up tuition even higher.
 

agaex

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Actually, I don't mind Dr. BadVibes attacks anymore. He is obsessed with money, and in the end, he will learn it the hard way. I really don't understand why people can't get a simple fact such as FRAUD through their heads. If it's okay to just start cancelling checks because you don't like the outcome, or can't stand the outcome, then the world will soon be unravelled. It'd be like a patient cancelling their check because you did shoddy work on their teeth. All of a sudden, it's not okay to cancel the check because I'm not getting paid. It seems that over the past 30 years, the paradigm has switched from, it's wrong to do that, to it's only wrong if I get caught. If you learn to play by the rules now, your life will be that much easier. Because if it's ok to do it, ie stealing by cancelling a check, to someone else because you're unhappy with them, you'd best be prepared to have it done to you. And although Dr. BadVibes believes he pulled a fast one on NYU, and has stated it MANY times throughout MANY threads, would you, as a potential colleague of his, recommend him to others inspite of his fraudulent and money scheming activities? I would think not. If he's skimming corners that badly now, think of how his dental work will be or the potentials for abuse by overcharging. This is the reason why money money money should never be the issue. That $500 you might save is not worth it, since it really is a drop in the proverbial bucket. Don't listen to a fraud like Dr. BadVibes, who apparently, believes it's okay to break the law, so long as you don't get caught.

Sorry Dukie, this post isn't directed at you, I just replied to it.


Dukie said:
It's really unecessary to attack someone personally for a comment they made. Of course, you can stop a check. It is certainly unethical, however. Ethics are one of the foundations of healthcare and something that every dentist I have worked with stressed to me. If you aren't sure about schools, then you are going to have to lose some money. Just remember you'll earn it back quickly! :)
 

agaex

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I agree! Finally someone who knows how the world works.

TucsonDDS said:
I don't think it is ethical to stop the payment on a check if the school declines you. Although it costs us buttloads of money to apply it also costs the schools money to process the applications, let alone the "insufficient funds" fees that they will most likely receive from their banks. Believe me, I don't think it is ethical for AADSAS to charge so much for the crappy service that they provide but that is out of our hands. How would you like it if you were charging patients diagnostic and consulting fees (which didn't cost you any more than time), they went with cheaper quote from another dentist and decided to cancel the check they wrote you. You would be out the time and the 15 or 20 bucks that your bank would charge you for the returned check fee. It just isn't ethical and in reality you are steeling from the school which will just drive up tuition even higher.
 

agaex

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Show me where in the U.S. Statutes, Common Law, or even UCC does it allow you to cancel out an agreement (the written check) out of convenience, such as you not liking results etc. If you can show me, and not just your own uninformed opinion, I will remove all of my remarks and stop posting. If you cannot, stop trying to propagate your fraud to others!

Dr.BadVibes said:
Hey....I was in the exact same situation last year, and I did the stop payment as soon as I got into another school. Like you said, its your cheque and $500 is nothing to ignore. Trust me, nothing will happen...I happily took my $500 and used it for my summer vacation in Central America right before dental school started, and I couldnt be more happy that I didnt let NYU cash that cheque.

Dont listen to agaex...this guy is a total idiot. Keep in mind that this is the same guy who encouraged people to take on more debt, and thought by going to BU, he would be able to drink coffee with the academic elite. So you can imagine that he is financially inept and just a simple ******.
 

souperman

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I have a friend who got into a school and he sent in a deposit to save his seat in that school. There was a mix up and his check went to the wrong admis. office(the check was then late and the committiee had to meet to decide if they would honor his check). In the mean time he heard from another school that he prefered over the first so he called the first school and told them not to bother with it and he canceled his check, they just said okay we will send the check back to you, no big deal.
 

souperman

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My last story has nothing to do with the ethics debate on this thread, it is only a response to the original question, if it has been done. Personaly I think that just because you feel others are acting in a way that you feel is wrong does not give others the right to do so.
 

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agaex said:
Actually, not only is it unethical, it's also illegal to do so. When you write a check to someone, there is an agreement that is made between you and the other party promising payment for their goods or service. Stopping the payment is equivalent to stealing. It doesn't matter how poor the service or results are, or how rich the other party is, the agreement stays. After the agreement, you're free to request repayment, etc.

IF ITS ILLEGAL TO STOP PAYMENT ON A CHECK THEN WHY DO BANKS ALLOW IT TO BE DONE. Think! Thats a crazy comment.

Also, it has nothing to do with ethics.
Just call them and tell them that you dont want to be considered and put a stop payment on it. Who cares if it makes them mad.

Also, it wont ruin your reputation people. I mean come on do you really think some person in the cashiers office thats makin $5.50 an hour is going to go home and tell their spouse that some kid cancelled a check to the school???

And will that person call the ADCOMS of all the other schools? That would be unethical.

Take an ethics class first before stating whats etical and not because your WRONG !
 

jk5177

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Interesting that this issue brings up more ethical questions than many of the threads I've seen.

Not having any ethical courses, this is my belief, and this is what I will do. The minute I find out I get accepted into any other school; I mean any other school than NYU, I will call NYU and tell them I'm pulling out, so please stop processing me. At the same time, I will ask them to stop the check, and to return it to me. If they refuse to do so, I will enquire the reason. Depending on that, I will determine if I want to cancel the check or not.

Posters here have mentioned that check is a ethical binding contract, and that is an interesting concept. When I write a check, I am starting a contract. Well, I like to hear from a lawyer's perspective on what is legal or illegal to do.

I get the sense that we are allowed to cancel them means that we are legally allowed to do so. So legally, that is not a problem, and if it is legal, then that usually (not always) helps with the ethical argument.

Also, the risk of peple cancelling checks is common, and is the reason why most places don't like accepting checks.

The other thing is that NYU have my check for about a month now, why aren't they cashing it? Why are they holding on and leave the door open for applicants to stop payment? Wouldn't they want to cash the check asap?

Or... let's make this a more interesting ethical questions. What if I stop payment on the check and donate that money to a non-profit org? Wouldn't that make up for the first unethical behavior? NYU is too damn rich, and they don't need 500 from me, whereas the 500 to a non-profit org can be of great benefit. It's like robin hood stealing from rich and giving to the poor.

I want to see some heavy ethical debate here, so please do so.
 

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I stopped payment on a check two days after I sent it in. I sent the check into CASE, and I heard from another school two days later. so immediately, emailed the school explaining i had stopped payment.
 

Tzips

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You've made two points I'd like to address:

jk5177 said:
Also, the risk of peple cancelling checks is common, and is the reason why most places don't like accepting checks.
Yes, but thanks G-d most dental schools still accept checks. If they start running into many problems of cancelled/bounced checks, they may very well reverse this policy, which would mean a whole lot more aggravation for future dental applicants. I'm just conjuring from the fact that most do take checks that this has not been a huge problem - probably because most applicants think that such a thing is unethical.

jk5177 said:
Or... let's make this a more interesting ethical questions. What if I stop payment on the check and donate that money to a non-profit org? Wouldn't that make up for the first unethical behavior? NYU is too damn rich, and they don't need 500 from me, whereas the 500 to a non-profit org can be of great benefit. It's like robin hood stealing from rich and giving to the poor.
Hate to break it to you, but Robin Hood is not the greatest example of an ethical person. Yes, he may have been doing what he did out of the best intentions in the world, but the bottom line is that he was stealing, which was illegal even in those benighted times. Stealing "from the rich to give to the poor" is completely unethical as well as illegal; if not, I fear I'd feel compelled to contact you when you are a rich dentist and forcibly donate 3/4 of your earnings to the poor starving inner-city kids. My argument? "__ is too rich, and they don't need 500, whereas the 500 to a non-profit org can be of great benefit. It's like robin hood stealing from rich and giving to the poor." If we don't want this happening to us - and I certainly don't; I'd like at least 80% of my hard-earned profits to go to my family - we have no right to call this decision on others.

And there's another question entirely: say you cancelled your check. Are you going to now call up the d-school and tell them, or let them try to cash a bounced check and pay the $30 penalty? You know, this reminds me very much of another thread; I'll post it as soon as I dig it up.
 

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I'm in a similar ethical quandry:

I paid my secondary app fee online with a credit card. However, the charge then appeared weeks later was for some other institution I did not recognize (plus I forgot about the fee). I called the credit card company and they cancelled the charge.

Just prior to the interview I realized what I had done when I got the confirmation of cancellation form from the Credit company. The interview went fine, though I decided I did not like the school and would be going elsewhere. They however did not mention the missing fee which leads me to believe either they havn't noticed or the credit people paid them and are waiting on my signed approval for the cancellation.

Should I go ahead and cancel the fee ($60)? If I'm not going there anyway will it matter if I piss them off? My gut feel says this fee won't even cover the hotel while I was there and screw them for having a school I didn't like :D
 

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One poster said that they called the school prior to cancelling the check and got the OK. I don't have a problem with this at all. It is the people who cancel the checks because they did not get accepted that bothers me. The schools and admissions staff work long and hard (ok, maybe not so long or hard) to choose people to attend their schools. These schools have to spend money to pay their salaries and this money comes in part from the admission fees that we are paying. We know up front what these fees are and we can choose whether to accept these fees and pay them or not pay them, it is our choice. If you feel that it is ethical to tell these schools that they will get the fees that they requested to do the work that you requested and then not pay them, that is fraud and it is illegal. Will anything happen to you, no, it is very unlikely. Could the schools prosecute you if they choose, yes. they could turn you into the states attorney general office and then you could be arrested for fraud. Do I think this will happen, no because it is more of a pain in the ass for the school to go after someone for 60bucks. Banks allow you to cancel checks for a couple of reasons; 1 is if you do not recieve goods or services that you agreed upon and 2 is if the check was lost. I think that if you ask the banks manager about the legality of cancelling a check without either of the two examples above he or she will tell you not to do it.
 

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jk5177 said:
Interesting that this issue brings up more ethical questions than many of the threads I've seen.

Not having any ethical courses, this is my belief, and this is what I will do. The minute I find out I get accepted into any other school; I mean any other school than NYU, I will call NYU and tell them I'm pulling out, so please stop processing me. At the same time, I will ask them to stop the check, and to return it to me. If they refuse to do so, I will enquire the reason. Depending on that, I will determine if I want to cancel the check or not.

Posters here have mentioned that check is a ethical binding contract, and that is an interesting concept. When I write a check, I am starting a contract. Well, I like to hear from a lawyer's perspective on what is legal or illegal to do.

I get the sense that we are allowed to cancel them means that we are legally allowed to do so. So legally, that is not a problem, and if it is legal, then that usually (not always) helps with the ethical argument.

Also, the risk of peple cancelling checks is common, and is the reason why most places don't like accepting checks.

The other thing is that NYU have my check for about a month now, why aren't they cashing it? Why are they holding on and leave the door open for applicants to stop payment? Wouldn't they want to cash the check asap?

Or... let's make this a more interesting ethical questions. What if I stop payment on the check and donate that money to a non-profit org? Wouldn't that make up for the first unethical behavior? NYU is too damn rich, and they don't need 500 from me, whereas the 500 to a non-profit org can be of great benefit. It's like robin hood stealing from rich and giving to the poor.

I want to see some heavy ethical debate here, so please do so.


Ethics shouldnt even be an issue here.

I think these people are concerned about what the schools will think of them if they do this.

WELL HERES MY THOUGHTS>./.......... WHEN A SCHOOL DOESNT ACCEPT YOU DO THEY CARE ABOUT YOUR FEELINGS???

How man people that didnt get into dental school this year got a visit at their home from a profession or a person from the ADCOMS ????

HOW ABOUT THIS...... How many that didnt get a seat even got a phone call explaining why they didnt get in?? much less in the rejection letter did they take the time to explain why you werent considered???

I didnt think so.

I say the hell with these schools. If you get in a different school cancel the checks people !
 

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vertical bite said:
IF ITS ILLEGAL TO STOP PAYMENT ON A CHECK THEN WHY DO BANKS ALLOW IT TO BE DONE. Think! Thats a crazy comment.
If they have rendered services it is illegal and they could theoretically take you to small claims court and win easily ( they won't, but could).

The option of stop payment exists for cases where services were not rendered or when a check has been lost or stolen not for you to screw people out of their money.
 

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velikimajmun said:
If they have rendered services it is illegal and they could theoretically take you to small claims court and win easily ( they won't, but could).

The option of stop payment exists for cases where services were not rendered or when a check has been lost or stolen not for you to screw people out of their money.


No you are confused. :laugh:

DO THEY PROCEED WITH YOUR APPLICATION IF YOUR CHECK HAS NOT BEEN PROCESSED?

NO.

SO nip it by putting a stop payment on the check and that will stop the process.
I think this is why some schools take so long to contact you. They do wait to see if you have paid and check cleared.

:laugh: MAN!
 

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velikimajmun said:
If they have rendered services it is illegal and they could theoretically take you to small claims court and win easily ( they won't, but could).

The option of stop payment exists for cases where services were not rendered or when a check has been lost or stolen not for you to screw people out of their money.


DO YOU THINK THEY RENDER SERVICES BEFORE CASHING THE CHECK?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good luck getting a professional school to do anything for free my man !
 

velikimajmun

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vertical bite said:
No you are confused. :laugh:

DO THEY PROCEED WITH YOUR APPLICATION IF YOUR CHECK HAS NOT BEEN PROCESSED?

NO.

SO nip it by putting a stop payment on the check and that will stop the process.
I think this is why some schools take so long to contact you. They do wait to see if you have paid and check cleared.

:laugh: MAN!
if you have been rejected like the original poster. Then you have recieved service. period end of story. I don't care about the ethics the fact is if he cancels the check then he could be taken to court and would lose. Though no dental school would ever do this. They may however stop taking checks or be more likely to process apps slower and wait for the check to clear as other schools do to avoid the hassle of dealing with the dross of society.
 

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vertical bite said:
DO YOU THINK THEY RENDER SERVICES BEFORE CASHING THE CHECK?

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Good luck getting a professional school to do anything for free my man !

Did you read the original post?

Are you literate?
 

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velikimajmun said:
Did you read the original post?

Are you literate?


hahahahahahahahaahahah

nice one !

GOOD STUFF ! :laugh: :laugh:
 

jk5177

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Thank you for taking the time to respond to my posts. It is always appreciated, however I like to reflect on what you said and pose some questions in response.

Tzips said:
You've made two points I'd like to address:

Yes, but thanks G-d most dental schools still accept checks. If they start running into many problems of cancelled/bounced checks, they may very well reverse this policy, which would mean a whole lot more aggravation for future dental applicants. I'm just conjuring from the fact that most do take checks that this has not been a huge problem - probably because most applicants think that such a thing is unethical..
To me, they can do whatever they want. If they switch to credit card, it won't be any more difficult for the students. Consider all the trouble that we have to go through already just to apply; we ought all all agree by this time that the whole application process is not as efficient as it could be.
Furthermore, an assumption is made here that they are accepting checks as a mean to ease the application process for all; which I would question the validity of the assumption. The school can simply deposit my check, but they haven't done so.

Tzips said:
Hate to break it to you, but Robin Hood is not the greatest example of an ethical person. Yes, he may have been doing what he did out of the best intentions in the world, but the bottom line is that he was stealing, which was illegal even in those benighted times. Stealing "from the rich to give to the poor" is completely unethical as well as illegal; if not, I fear I'd feel compelled to contact you when you are a rich dentist and forcibly donate 3/4 of your earnings to the poor starving inner-city kids. My argument? "__ is too rich, and they don't need 500, whereas the 500 to a non-profit org can be of great benefit. It's like robin hood stealing from rich and giving to the poor." If we don't want this happening to us - and I certainly don't; I'd like at least 80% of my hard-earned profits to go to my family - we have no right to call this decision on others.
I hear what you are saying about Robin Hood not being the most ethical person. I also hear you say that stealing is wrong. Do you think there are any situations where stealing may be justified? Honestly. Do you think there are any exceptions in this universe, where stealing is justified? Just on the top of my head, say if my family is hungry, would I be stealing from the rich? I would. And I likely I would take the full responsibility of such actions. Full responsiblility can mean legal or karmic. Let me put myself in the shoe, if I became a hot shot dentist, and some client, who can't afford dental care steals from me, would I mind? At these point, I can say no. That client needs money more than I do. You may call me a socialist if you like, but I believe it is important to spread the wealth. I am blessed to have the opportunity to be a dentist, and this blessing is extremely rare, less than 1% of the population in the world have this opportunity.

I went tangential a bit. The original idea was about dental schools. Can we say that dental schools are well off? Can we say that the deans are rich? I would say yes. And what are they doing with all this money? Do I have the right to dictate what ways should the dean spend his money? These are good questions.

Tzips said:
And there's another question entirely: say you cancelled your check. Are you going to now call up the d-school and tell them, or let them try to cash a bounced check and pay the $30 penalty? You know, this reminds me very much of another thread; I'll post it as soon as I dig it up.
Of course I would tell them. It's not a matter of ethics, to me it's a matter of how things ought to be done.

Tzips. Once again, thank you for responding to my thread and providing this most interesting opportunity to discuss an ethical question. I enjoy sharing my thoughts with you. Hope you feel the same way too.