DOAnestMan

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 16, 2006
49
0
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Hey all-
I was wondering if people had any tips on how to improve one's chances of having their intern year in an ACGME program approved by the AOA. I am just beginning my third year and have heard that starting to work on approval earlier is better. I have heard conflicts on how easy or hard it is to get approval and was wondering if anyone here had advice to share. Thanks.
 

drusso

Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
Nov 21, 1998
8,591
3,229
Over the rainbow
Status
Attending Physician
DOAnestMan said:
Hey all-
I was wondering if people had any tips on how to improve one's chances of having their intern year in an ACGME program approved by the AOA. I am just beginning my third year and have heard that starting to work on approval earlier is better. I have heard conflicts on how easy or hard it is to get approval and was wondering if anyone here had advice to share. Thanks.
Did you do an ACGME-approved transitional year? If so, it's pretty straightforward to get it approved via the Resolution 42 pathway on the AOA website.

http://www.do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_postdocres42

Basically, demonstrate a reason why you needed to do your internship in the geographic area you did it, attend an osteopathic conference or educational event, and get a letter from the Dean of the school.

I got mine approved without much difficulty.
 

gagolden

Call me the DOgg
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
May 17, 2005
243
0
Status
To anybody who as gotten their IM residency approved.

I am interested in getting my ACGME residency approved.. well after the match that is. After reading before mentioned link, I was left with a question

Do you have to complete all of your requried roations during your internship year, or can you spread them out over the course of three years. For example, your pediatric requirement, can you do that PGY II.

Interviews should be starting here in a few months and I want to be informed during them.

Thanks
 
About the Ads

Dr Trek 1

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2003
834
6
34
Visit site
Status
Pre-Medical
You guys are doing this just so that you can practice in one of the "five states" right? Just clearing up how this process works.
 

Taus

.
Moderator
10+ Year Member
Feb 1, 2005
3,915
509
Philly
Status
Attending Physician
Dr Trek 1 said:
You guys are doing this just so that you can practice in one of the "five states" right? Just clearing up how this process works.
this whole issue is only a problem for the 5 states.....it shouldn't be an issue for anyone else
 

drusso

Moderator Emeritus
Lifetime Donor
20+ Year Member
Nov 21, 1998
8,591
3,229
Over the rainbow
Status
Attending Physician
Dr Trek 1 said:
You guys are doing this just so that you can practice in one of the "five states" right? Just clearing up how this process works.
Yes and No. Depending upon how things play out on a national licensure level for DO's/MD's/FMG's there are some potential liabilities to being "orphaned." That's why I'm boarded by the NBOME (ie COMLEX steps I-III) despite having completed ACGME-accredited internship (which I got dual approved), residency, and fellowship.
 

gagolden

Call me the DOgg
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
May 17, 2005
243
0
Status
Taus said:
this whole issue is only a problem for the 5 states.....it shouldn't be an issue for anyone else
Well, there are many of us that want AMA training (do to location-family etc.), but chose DO over MD for a reason. We are pround of being a DO and want to maintain tied with the AMA

Then there are others, like me, who want to keep the option of doing AOA fellowships following a AMA residency. Cant do it if your internship and residency are not approved by the AOA
 

Taus

.
Moderator
10+ Year Member
Feb 1, 2005
3,915
509
Philly
Status
Attending Physician
gagolden said:
Well, there are many of us that want AMA training (do to location-family etc.), but chose DO over MD for a reason. We are pround of being a DO and want to maintain tied with the AMA

Then there are others, like me, who want to keep the option of doing AOA fellowships following a AMA residency. Cant do it if your internship and residency are not approved by the AOA
ahh...got it...my mistake
 
OP
DOAnestMan

DOAnestMan

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 16, 2006
49
0
Status
Resident [Any Field]
For me, the issue is definitely wanting liscensure in the 5 states...particularly 1 state. I was wondering if anyone who has successfully had there ACGME internship approved had used the "other extenuating circumstances" clause to gain approval. I have plenty of DO internships available, but the program I am really interested in is not. Thanks again.
 

Induc(junc)tion

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Mar 21, 2006
141
0
Status
I am in the same sort of dillema. Almost every anesthesia program that I am looking at are categorical allopathic programs. I have plenty of DO internships around, but I dont want to limit my chances at an allopathic spot by only being able to apply for advanced positions with an osteopathic internship. I would like to hear more advice on people who have done this successfully.
 

Arch Guillotti

Senior Member
Staff member
Administrator
Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 8, 2001
7,749
1,553
Status
Attending Physician
ACGME anesthesia programs are supposedly moving towards a standardized 4 year track for everyone and getting rid of the advanced spots. I would go for the categorical spots unless you want to practice in one of the big five, then it becomes more complicated.
 

Induc(junc)tion

Member
10+ Year Member
5+ Year Member
Mar 21, 2006
141
0
Status
Thats the thing, I may end up going back to Michigan at one time. I really would love to match into a categorical gas program, as that first year is more tailored to critical care and surgery type stuff vs. primary care crap. I was thinking of ranking all advanced programs higher than categorical however, and then just scrambling into an AOA intern year position if need be, otherwise it would be up to Resolution 42 to decide my fate.
 
About the Ads

Nickelpennykid

New Member
10+ Year Member
7+ Year Member
Aug 17, 2006
364
0
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Does anyone know which states make up the "5 states" ??????????
 

me454555

Senior Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 29, 2003
488
6
38
New York
Visit site
Status
Resident [Any Field]
Let's say I don't get my TRI approved but I do a residency in one of those 5 states. Will I have a problem during residency as I'm practicing on a training liscence? Or does this issue only affect me when I apply for full liscensure after residency?
 

(nicedream)

Fitter Happier
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 10, 2004
2,042
1
The Sea
Status
Let's say I don't get my TRI approved but I do a residency in one of those 5 states. Will I have a problem during residency as I'm practicing on a training liscence? Or does this issue only affect me when I apply for full liscensure after residency?
It will affect residency. Some residencies won't rank DO students if they don't have assurance that the student won't have problems with licensure.
 

(nicedream)

Fitter Happier
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 10, 2004
2,042
1
The Sea
Status
From what I hear, it's not that difficult to get AOA approval of a TY/Prelim. It seems like everyone that says it is a problem, are people that did an AOA internship - maybe bitter? I know several that have done it in PA and FL.

There are other options as well.

1. Rank categoricals, and if you don't match at one, scramble into an AOA internship year (if you're worried about getting approval).

2. Do a dual-accredited internship.
 

Neurodropout

Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 9, 2004
136
0
Michigan
Status
Resident [Any Field]
2. Do a dual-accredited internship.

This is what I am looking for, but I am not having much success using the online resources to figure out which internships are dually accredited AND offer preliminary spots. Also, does anyone know if you can rank a dually accredited internship through the ACGME match and still have it be considered dually accredited? Or do you have to do the AOA match to have it be dually accredited? Does scrambling into a dually accredited spot change it from being dually accredited?
 

(nicedream)

Fitter Happier
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 10, 2004
2,042
1
The Sea
Status
This is what I am looking for, but I am not having much success using the online resources to figure out which internships are dually accredited AND offer preliminary spots. Also, does anyone know if you can rank a dually accredited internship through the ACGME match and still have it be considered dually accredited? Or do you have to do the AOA match to have it be dually accredited? Does scrambling into a dually accredited spot change it from being dually accredited?
You know, I think you have to apply through AOA match for dual-accredited programs - but you can scramble into them. Better option is skipping application to PGY1 altogether, and scrambling into AOA (or dual) program.
 

hossofadoc

7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 13, 2002
206
2
38
Visit site
Status
I know that the programs that are dual accredited in our OPTI, you have to go through the ACGME match. I'm not sure about the other programs if you have to do this. I can post the programs that are in our OPTI if you want me too.
 

jhug

1K Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Nov 11, 2001
1,323
0
Valley o' the sun
Visit site
Status
Well, there are many of us that want AMA training (do to location-family etc.),
i know it may seem like semantics but...there is no such thing as an "AMA program". The American Medical Association spends all it's time and resources protecting and advocating for physician (md/do) and patient rights...the AMA does not have direct control over allo medical schools or post-graduate programs....but they can wield some influence over them (as was seen in colorado and equal fees for students...something the AOA claimed it couldn't accomplish)
 
About the Ads

Neurodropout

Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 9, 2004
136
0
Michigan
Status
Resident [Any Field]
I know that the programs that are dual accredited in our OPTI, you have to go through the ACGME match. I'm not sure about the other programs if you have to do this. I can post the programs that are in our OPTI if you want me too.
Are any of those programs free standing internships, without being linked to another residency program? If that's the case, I would like to know about them.
Thanks
 

hossofadoc

7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Dec 13, 2002
206
2
38
Visit site
Status
Neurodropout-The programs are U. of KY, U. of TN, ETSU, U. of North Dakota- bismark and Miniot, Hanover Regional Medical in Wilmington, NC, Anchorage, AK....and we are working on a lot more... still tba.
 

Vince

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Apr 9, 2001
389
1
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
Just got my approval letter the other day. I did an ACGME Transitional Year at a hospital that also has an AOA Traditional Rotating Internship and prior grads have gotten approval. That probably helped, and both interns have the same rotations, except electives of course which vary. I had to do a little more crap during internship that my MD counterparts didn't have to do. I had to keep patient logs, reading logs, conference/workshop logs, etc. Also had to meet with the AOA DME and my own program director quarterly. I couldn't make it to the AOA conference in Orlando last year so I went to the California DO society annual meeting, OPSC. My reasons for getting it approved were combo of geographical, personal and radiology residencies on the west coast, and one of my rads programs I applied to had a linked internship and if I had matched to a DO internship, I would have been dropped from any chances at that program. As competitive as radiology is, I didn't want to risk it. I sent copies of my NRMP rank list as proof (so you may want to print that stuff) and my program had to send a letter that stated what rotations I did, etc. You can do most of this stuff early on, especially writing your statement on why you had "exceptional circumstances" that necessitated you doing an ACGME internship, and send it to the AOA early. And then at the end of internship, you can send a letter or copy of your diploma saying that you successfully completed the internship and that's it.

In my case it was a matter of more paperwork and hassle, but I figured what the heck, who knows where I'll end up. I honestly don't see myself practicing in any of the 5 states, but should I have personal reasons to leave private practice radiology, i.e. ill family members, moving, who knows, I might have a better option of teleradiology, because some teleradiology companies might want me to be licensed in one of those states.

Hope this helps.

Vince
 

Stimulate

10+ Year Member
Nov 9, 2006
207
2
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
I graduated in 2003 from AZCOM and matched into a categorical anesthesiology residency. I applied under the new rules for AOA-approval and after jumping through the hoops I was able to get approved. I used the extenuating circumstances clause by stating that I really wanted to live in the Midwest and that given the competitive nature of anesthesiology I had to apply allopathic because the number of available positions was greater. There are not that many osteopathic anesthesia residencies. There is a DO anesthesia residency in the same city as my ACGME residency so I couldn't use location as an excuse.However, were that not the case, I would find a reason why you "had to be" in a certain city.

Also, be very aware of the requirements for getting approval. My internship was heavily critical-care based and there is a requirement for continuity clinic exposure. If you talk with your ACGME program director you may be able to structure your internship to meet the reqs. Do this early, don't expect your PD to change your schedule once everyone's schedule is out.
 

(nicedream)

Fitter Happier
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 10, 2004
2,042
1
The Sea
Status
Recommend bringing issue up during interview to make sure program will accommodate, or waiting until match is over?
 

Stimulate

10+ Year Member
Nov 9, 2006
207
2
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
I would wait to you have a position somewhere or perhaps ask the residents you meet there. You would be surprised at how many DOs are out there. You may meet some at the programs you are interviewing and they can tell you about if/how they got approval.

I wouldn't start asking about accomodations the program director can make for you until you definitely have a guaranteed spot. :)
 

ZspartanDO

New Member
10+ Year Member
Feb 14, 2006
5
0
Michigan
Status
Medical Student
Two questions to anyone who knows about this whole process:


Anyone know about the ER requirement or ambulatory requirement for the AOA approval of ACGME internship? In my program we do ER in 3rd year, but not sure if the AOA will accept that....anyone know? FYI I have heard of once case of getting the ambulatory "waived" b/c we do enough clinic during the 3 years to make up for it so I'd imagine ER may be the same. (I just don't want to burn up one of my electives this year doing ER if I don't have to.)

Also, anyone use the reason to get approved based on competetiveness of fellowships...e.g. I want to do cardiology so I wanted a university IM program...I'm in Cali for IM but for fellowship I may want to go back to Michigan (hence the need for the AOA approval)...not a location thing for my rank list but more of keeping options open. Will that work?

THANKS!
 

georgewbush

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 22, 2001
27
0
Visit site
Status
I am a DO Pathology resident. Since we don't have to do an internship I am in a little different situation. I have to complete Item 42-D.3.

Item 42-D.3.- Attend an AOA or Specialty College Annual Convention or prepare and conduct an osteopathic clinical presentation that must be reviewed and approved by PTRC (Program and Trainee Review Committee) reviewer.

Have any of you done the presentation?
 

Stimulate

10+ Year Member
Nov 9, 2006
207
2
Status
Fellow [Any Field]
The presentation sounded too painful for me so I attended my state's DO convention (free for residents). Just make sure you get them to send you a certificate of participation or a letter verifying your attendance. The state DO society people are usually very friendly (they want you to be a member) and willing to comply with this. Any expenses you occur in this process (travel, etc.) would be tax-deductible as well. :)
 

georgewbush

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Jan 22, 2001
27
0
Visit site
Status
So they approved the state meeting?
Because although it does not say "national" specifically that is what I understood, since it says AOA or specialty college.
 

dermpathdoc

DO Path
10+ Year Member
Aug 24, 2005
477
10
Pacific Northwest
Status
Attending Physician
I am a DO Pathology resident. Since we don't have to do an internship I am in a little different situation. I have to complete Item 42-D.3.

Item 42-D.3.- Attend an AOA or Specialty College Annual Convention or prepare and conduct an osteopathic clinical presentation that must be reviewed and approved by PTRC (Program and Trainee Review Committee) reviewer.

Have any of you done the presentation?
In this Instance you would need ot coordinate with the American Osteopathic COllege of Pathology or American Osteopathic Board of Pathology...they would be the appropriate Program and Traninee Review committee. We generally recommend a resident presentation be given at the annual AOCP/AOA convention. That would fulfill the requirement. GO to the AOCPa website or email [email protected] for more details.
 

acurarte

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 5, 2002
67
0
Phoenix
Visit site
Status
The AOA is getting rid of the traditional internship year and is moving toward tracked programs. This news came from my program director who heads the educational committe for the Osteopathic College of Ophthalmology. There will still be traditional internships available for those undecided about what they want to do. However, most residencies will be tracked.
Therefore this thread topic will soon be a nonissue. The AOA wants to retain all DO's as members and understands that a lot of DO grads are doing ACGME residencies.
 

eddoc

Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Aug 5, 2001
36
0
NY
Visit site
Status
and just how do you know this? do you have any proof other than "my program director told me." call me crazy, but I am a little skeptical about random anonymous posts on the internet claiming the AOA is making radical changes.

I am a categorical intern in an ACGME approved general surgery residency in NY, and the chances of me getting my internship AOA approved are not very good. To save myself from all the trouble of applying and making phone calls, I would love to know where you got this information from.

thanks in advance acurarte.
 

acurarte

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 5, 2002
67
0
Phoenix
Visit site
Status
If you would like to know for sure, call the AOA. I do not think that it is a secret. As the chief resident I was asked to make up a curriculum for our future interns (when we convert to a tracked program) for my program director to review. I also discussed it with some of the other board members in our college of osteopathic ophthalmology. Perhaps we are all getting the wrong info, but I doubt it.

As a side note, I did two years of general surgery at UNM and therefore did not do a traditional internship. When I changed career plans and was accepted into an osteopathic ophthalmology residency I had to get my "internship" approved by the AOA. I did not find it all that difficult.

Again, if you want the proof just call the AOA.

Good Luck and good night!
 

(nicedream)

Fitter Happier
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 10, 2004
2,042
1
The Sea
Status
The AOA is getting rid of the traditional internship year and is moving toward tracked programs. This news came from my program director who heads the educational committe for the Osteopathic College of Ophthalmology. There will still be traditional internships available for those undecided about what they want to do. However, most residencies will be tracked.
Therefore this thread topic will soon be a nonissue. The AOA wants to retain all DO's as members and understands that a lot of DO grads are doing ACGME residencies.
The elimination of the traditional rotating internship and conversion of all programs to "tracked" internship years has nothing to do with the issue at hand (those that do ACGME residencies). All the change means is that instead of having to do a separate "internship" and then apply to DO residencies, the internship will simply be PGY1 of the residency, eliminating the need to do a separate internship FOR THOSE DOING DO RESIDENCIES. Whether DO programs are tracked or not will not affect those doing ACGME programs. The question is how will the AOA and the state boards deal with the requirement of a rotating internship in light of the fact that it will no longer be possible for one to do a rotating internship prior to their ACGME residency program.
 

acurarte

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Mar 5, 2002
67
0
Phoenix
Visit site
Status
The elimination of the traditional rotating internship and conversion of all programs to "tracked" internship years has nothing to do with the issue at hand (those that do ACGME residencies). All the change means is that instead of having to do a separate "internship" and then apply to DO residencies, the internship will simply be PGY1 of the residency, eliminating the need to do a separate internship FOR THOSE DOING DO RESIDENCIES. Whether DO programs are tracked or not will not affect those doing ACGME programs. The question is how will the AOA and the state boards deal with the requirement of a rotating internship in light of the fact that it will no longer be possible for one to do a rotating internship prior to their ACGME residency program.
You have a point, however, the tracked programs will not be required to do a traditional rotating internship any longer. This parallels what the ACGME programs do. Therefore, ophthalmology trackers will have an internship developed by their college and the dermatologists will be required to do as their college requires instead of the traditional core requirements that the AOA currently has set in place.

Perhaps I am wrong, but it is the traditional rotating internship that causes the problem. That is whay I had to "make up" a month of IM when I made the switch from a ACGME program to a DO program to get an "AOA approval" of my internship. The AOA approval was required by one of the states I have a lic. in. If the traditional rotating internship is no longer required, then on what gounds will the AOA have not to approve an ACGME internship (regardless of specialty)? If this was the case I would not have had to make up a month of IM which would have been quite nice.
 
About the Ads