AOA president speaks on Rocky Vista/For Profit schools

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DO_for_Change

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Finally on his blog.

Only 15 people have commented, mostly negative. There needs to be more. Spread the word.

Please take the time to voice your concerns to the AOA, COCA, Colorado Osteopathic Associate, and more.

Colorado Society of Osteopathic Medicine: Marie@ColoradoDo_Org

AOA's COCA (accreditation division): [email protected]

Predoctoral accreditation:
[email protected]
[email protected]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] Colorado Springs Osteopathic Foundation
.[email protected]

Denver Osteopathic Foundation
[email protected]

Write to Peter B. Ajluni via his blog or snail mail. If anyone has his email, please pass it on.

Do what it takes

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I am a first year student who's worried more about my classes than anything else, but this topic alarms me greatly. Although DOs have made tremendous progress in marketing and proving to the public and MDs the competency and usefulness of OMT; however, I feel that there still exist underlying "discriminations" from the general public and some older physicians. A school that is "for-profit" that has DO moniker after it will only hurt the progress we and those that experienced and worked through real discrimination.

Although I cannot be certain of the quality of the Colorado school, but I can only imagine the type of students and physicians it will attract. I have been complaining about my loans, and this has affected my future decision into medical specialty/residency, and can only assume from my experience that same thing will happen at this school. If that becomes the norm to worry more about business side than the patients then it will only hurt reputations of the physician,and especially DOs.

I understand that we need more doctors, but do AOA want to have a reputation as degree producing factory as some of the foreign schools have become?

I love the osteopathic philosophy and learning about the history of medicine. (i.e Flexner Report in 1910 where most of the medical schools shut down because it was deemed inadequate both MDs and DOs.) I just hope that AOA do not make the same mistake of accrediting unfit medical program due to 'political' or 'economic' reasons, which will only destroy the reputation that AOA has worked very hard to garner in the past.
 
I am a first year student who's worried more about my classes than anything else, but this topic alarms me greatly.

I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. There are several reasons I believe this topic is being blown out of proportion:

1) The general public has little knowledge of DOs. Heck, the general *medical* public has little knowledge of DOs. A single, new DO school that opens for profit will not be even a blip in people's radars. Even without for-profit schools people still dis us (remember MSNBC and the "fake doctor" that Paris Hilton had?). Why is it going to be any worse now?

2) I'm an MS-IV and I had no idea that all medical schools in this country were not-for-profit. I don't believe that Rocky Vista is going to advertise itself as "the first for-profit medical school in years!" People will find out incidentally, and when they do they probably won't even care.

3) The only way Rocky Vista will make money is if they attract students. The only way to do that is to attain a reputation of high Board pass rates and good residency placements. I'm sure the school will produce fine physicians.

4) I think only DOs worry about Rocky Vista. The AMA hasn't said anything. There is no activity on the allopathic or pre-allopathic forums about it. As someone else said in a different thread, even so-called non-profit schools generate a huge amount of "profit." It's just semantics. I don't have visions of greedy administrators charging an arm and a leg for a poor education. I just don't see that happening at all.

There are many things to worry about as an osteopathic doc. Rocky Vista should probably be at the bottom of your "worry list."
 
3) The only way Rocky Vista will make money is if they attract students. The only way to do that is to attain a reputation of high Board pass rates and good residency placements. I'm sure the school will produce fine physicians.

Medical schools (MD or DO) will never have a problem finding students to matriculate...even with awful boards scores unimpressive matchlists, students will still apply bc it gives them one more chance to become a doctor

4) I think only DOs worry about Rocky Vista. The AMA hasn't said anything. There is no activity on the allopathic or pre-allopathic forums about it. As someone else said in a different thread, even so-called non-profit schools generate a huge amount of "profit." It's just semantics. I don't have visions of greedy administrators charging an arm and a leg for a poor education. I just don't see that happening at all.


I think LCME prohibits for-profit med schools. And doesnt profit made by non-profit schools go right back into funding education...instead of to investors. I agree tho that the quality of the school will have to meet a high standard just like every other school
 
To do what? Get the degree changed to "MD"?
JPHazelton said:
Oh sorry. I will just post it on the blog then.
I know you are fully aware this thread has little to do with the "DO" designation. You're just looking for invitations to display your contempt. Your act is growing old, JP.
 
I think only DOs worry about Rocky Vista. The AMA hasn't said anything.
The AMA may not have said anything, but they're not a blanket organization the way the AOA is. LCME, on the other hand, tightened the accreditation restrictions requiring allopathic medical schools to be not-for-profit about five seconds after Rocky Vista was announced.

Abraham Flexner thought that profit motive and medical education were fundamentally incompatible in 1910. Nobody, especially Dr. Aljuni, has provided a satisfactory explanation yet of how human nature has changed in 100 years to make this suddenly acceptable - and his comments that AOA can't tell COCA what to do are cowardly. I'm an allopathic student and perhaps shouldn't post here, but the Rocky issue worries me also. My state has an extremely fine osteopathic medical school and lots of terrific D.O.'s. My overall impression has been that the AOA wants to expand the number of osteopathic medical school seats fast enough to "catch the wave" of the physician shortage, whereas it takes years to start (or even expand) an allopathic school. AOA appears to me not to care much about where all the experienced deans and professors are going to come from (or even how they're going to expand the AOA fast enough to supervise all the new schools), and how the osteopathic profession may be affected. Allopathic students are also watching. I can tell you that the school that I attend does not generate a profit, nor does the state expect it to (nor does my state osteopathic school, which is university-affiliated and state-supported).
 
I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. There are several reasons I believe this topic is being blown out of proportion:

1) The general public has little knowledge of DOs. Heck, the general *medical* public has little knowledge of DOs. A single, new DO school that opens for profit will not be even a blip in people's radars. Even without for-profit schools people still dis us (remember MSNBC and the "fake doctor" that Paris Hilton had?). Why is it going to be any worse now?

2) I'm an MS-IV and I had no idea that all medical schools in this country were not-for-profit. I don't believe that Rocky Vista is going to advertise itself as "the first for-profit medical school in years!" People will find out incidentally, and when they do they probably won't even care.

3) The only way Rocky Vista will make money is if they attract students. The only way to do that is to attain a reputation of high Board pass rates and good residency placements. I'm sure the school will produce fine physicians.

4) I think only DOs worry about Rocky Vista. The AMA hasn't said anything. There is no activity on the allopathic or pre-allopathic forums about it. As someone else said in a different thread, even so-called non-profit schools generate a huge amount of "profit." It's just semantics. I don't have visions of greedy administrators charging an arm and a leg for a poor education. I just don't see that happening at all.

There are many things to worry about as an osteopathic doc. Rocky Vista should probably be at the bottom of your "worry list."

The term "slippery slope" comes to mind.
 
...
Abraham Flexner thought that profit motive and medical education were fundamentally incompatible in 1910....

That wasn't his point at all. He wasn't upset by "for-profit" schools; he was pissed at the doctors who were taking money to teach students and giving them a sub-par education. He was an idealist who believed that the physician was a "social instrument" and his main concern was that public health was closely linked to the quality of the medical training.

The whole idea behind the Flexner Report was to close any medical school that wouldn't follow the AMA's proposed model: increased entrance requirements, full-time faculty, 2 years of science and 2 years of clinical training, teaching hospital availability, large endowment size and keeping costs low for the students. He didn't think it was possible for a "for-profit" school to keep those standards without being incredibly costly, so he recommended that they all be attached to existing state-supported schools.

That said, I'm not a fan of "for-profit" schools. But...it's not going away anytime soon. No amount of bitching is going to change that. No online petitions for disgruntled pre-meds is going to change that. If you want to change it... become a part of the organization. Join the AOA, show up at the conferences, participate in the meetings, get elected as a local officer and work your way up into the organization.
 
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Medical schools (MD or DO) will never have a problem finding students to matriculate...even with awful boards scores unimpressive matchlists, students will still apply bc it gives them one more chance to become a doctor

If the school wants to be accredited though it has to produce students who pass the boards.

As an aside, do you think for-profit medical schools might create an competitive marketplace where school A can charge more than school B because its students have higher board scores/match results.
 
If they are going to go ahead and ignore the important reasons behind Flexner's report (geeez, look at our tuition!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) then please why don't they just be honest and pubically state their motivations? Be honest in your greed, RV (or any med school in general)!!
 
If the school wants to be accredited though it has to produce students who pass the boards.

As an aside, do you think for-profit medical schools might create an competitive marketplace where school A can charge more than school B because its students have higher board scores/match results.

Caribbean schools takes a lot of students who do NOT pass the boards yet people still go there, because it offers them a chance to become doctors. I'm not sure I like the reputation that school produces which is known to take a lot of students, charge a lot of money, and hang them out to dry when they end up not passing their boards. Look at law school which does this....there are many Third Tier law schools which charge a lot of money but churn out law students who don't pass the bar and end up unemployed. In fact, when law schools began to proliferate, one of things that started to happen was the image of unemployed lawyers began to pop up. Everyone could get into law school now, but not everyone could live as one.

I hope that Rocky Vista does not start a rush into creation of such a system. At the very least, there should be standards of accreditation which stipulates that the vast majority (90%+) must match successfully. At least in that case, we won't be in danger of seeing a proliferation of medical schools with low standards and high tuition.

As for creating a more competitive marketplace....I seriously doubt it, mainly because the places with the highest scores/match results are not always the most expensive. The most expensive medical schools are filled those private schools which are 'unranked' (Tufts, Boston med etc). Not to say that they are bad, but according to US News, schools like UofChicago, WashU, Cornell etc do not have students coming out with the most debt, even though they typically the highest board scores/best match results. One of the reasons is that those schools can offer their students more scholarships. Hence, the most competitive schools are currently not the most expensive.

With a for-profit school...I'm not sure the marketplace for education will work out that way since there is already an established hierarchy in medicine.

People will still aim for the Harvard/Yale/Stanford, and keep the newest med school in the back, especially given the 'stigma' of being a for-profit school.

I've seen this in China when the gov't decided to allow for private 'for profit' schools to proliferate. To this day, 15 years after the deregulation of the educational system, the best schools are still the public schools---the oldest ones with the longest reputation---i.e the government schools.

Private schools there tend to be all for-profit, and has a reputation of being a place of 'last resort' for wealthy kids who do not test into a government (i.e "good") school. And because private schools cannot always attract the best students, they tend to see lower test scores. That is starting to change as some private schools, with the best resources, start attracting better students, but progress has been slow.

I'm going to stick my head out and say that this will happen with the creation and possible proliferation of for-profit medical schools in this country.
 
Caribbean schools takes a lot of students who do NOT pass the boards yet people still go there, because it offers them a chance to become doctors.

In a world where people spend billions on lottery tickets, for profit medical education is a bad idea.
 
Sooo, does anyone know what their stated intentions/reasons for opening specifically a for-profit school were? Did they couch it in terms that avoided profit, or something? Surely there was an awareness that it would be the first one in a while, and that it is generally frowned upon? Will there be more? Bleech.
 
Sooo, does anyone know what their stated intentions/reasons for opening specifically a for-profit school were? Did they couch it in terms that avoided profit, or something? Surely there was an awareness that it would be the first one in a while, and that it is generally frowned upon? Will there be more? Bleech.

All the information about RVU was made people and well known to everyone. The only people who frown about the school are a handful of SDN posters. RVU will be a great school in a few years. The leaders of that school have done a great job in planning and promoting the school and it will be a great asset to the Osteopathic profession.
 
All the information about RVU was made people and well known to everyone. The only people who frown about the school are a handful of SDN posters. RVU will be a great school in a few years. The leaders of that school have done a great job in planning and promoting the school and it will be a great asset to the Osteopathic profession.

I'm not sure how information is made "people" as you indicate.



I also find it odd that the vast majority of your posts are all regarding RVU.

Your employer perhaps?
 
I am just trying to defend the school since it is approved and is opening whether you like it or not. It is part of osteopathic medicine now and all DOs should support it and hope it trains great docs in the future
 
I am just trying to defend the school since it is approved and is opening whether you like it or not. It is part of osteopathic medicine now and all DOs should support it and hope it trains great docs in the future

So by your logic, because we live in america, we should support everything congress and the presidential administration do because its going to happen whether we like it or not?

Or if a walmart opens up next-door to mom&pop groceries, you should just support it because its going to happen whether you like it or not, and will provide bargains?

That is made of lulz and fail.
 
I am just trying to defend the school since it is approved and is opening whether you like it or not. It is part of osteopathic medicine now and all DOs should support it and hope it trains great docs in the future

As I understand it the school has only been granted provisional status.

Like many of you I am concerned about the opening of for profit medical schools. This says nothing about the quality of students, quality of staff, and facilities. I am very concerned about what the public's impression of these schools and the profession will be. I think that as DO students and physicians we should all be very concerned about the public perception of our profession because as DOs increase in number and the public becomes more aware of the degree people will start looking into this type of thing.

At a non-profit school any extra money made is invested back into the school. A for-profit school, by definition, does not do this. By definition a for-profit school will only invest as much as it has to in order to continue accreditation and enrolling students (this should not be a problem since people who are passionate about be physicians will go almost anywhere). Of course a for-profit school will have good facilities (and faculty) at first because they know they have to overcome the fact that they are for-profit. However, I think that we (and the public) cannot believe that the sole focus of such an institution will be training good physicians. This is not the spirit we should be embracing in medical education. In my experience, there seems be a consensus among (this is just in my experience) medical students, DOs, and administration at other DO schools (though I doubt they would say so in public) that the opening of for-profit medical schools is a terrible idea.

Just another thought I was told there is already another for-profit school in the works in the midwest (I suspect there will continue to be more of these as long as they are allowed).
 
Wow two year old threads that you just revived HopefulDoc. Where in the midwest is this school planning on opening?
 
I was told there were 2 more coming and one would be in Kansas City (which already has 2 allopathic and 1 osteopathic medical schools).
 
Wow two year old threads that you just revived HopefulDoc. Where in the midwest is this school planning on opening?

Sorry, didn't mean to revive a dead thread. I guess I didn't see when the last post was.
 
I am a first year student who's worried more about my classes than anything else, but this topic alarms me greatly. Although DOs have made tremendous progress in marketing and proving to the public and MDs the competency and usefulness of OMT; however, I feel that there still exist underlying "discriminations" from the general public and some older physicians. A school that is "for-profit" that has DO moniker after it will only hurt the progress we and those that experienced and worked through real discrimination.

Although I cannot be certain of the quality of the Colorado school, but I can only imagine the type of students and physicians it will attract. I have been complaining about my loans, and this has affected my future decision into medical specialty/residency, and can only assume from my experience that same thing will happen at this school. If that becomes the norm to worry more about business side than the patients then it will only hurt reputations of the physician,and especially DOs.

I understand that we need more doctors, but do AOA want to have a reputation as degree producing factory as some of the foreign schools have become?

I love the osteopathic philosophy and learning about the history of medicine. (i.e Flexner Report in 1910 where most of the medical schools shut down because it was deemed inadequate both MDs and DOs.) I just hope that AOA do not make the same mistake of accrediting unfit medical program due to 'political' or 'economic' reasons, which will only destroy the reputation that AOA has worked very hard to garner in the past.

What exactly does that mean?
 
The AMA may not have said anything, but they're not a blanket organization the way the AOA is. LCME, on the other hand, tightened the accreditation restrictions requiring allopathic medical schools to be not-for-profit about five seconds after Rocky Vista was announced.

Abraham Flexner thought that profit motive and medical education were fundamentally incompatible in 1910. Nobody, especially Dr. Aljuni, has provided a satisfactory explanation yet of how human nature has changed in 100 years to make this suddenly acceptable - and his comments that AOA can't tell COCA what to do are cowardly. I'm an allopathic student and perhaps shouldn't post here, but the Rocky issue worries me also. My state has an extremely fine osteopathic medical school and lots of terrific D.O.'s. My overall impression has been that the AOA wants to expand the number of osteopathic medical school seats fast enough to "catch the wave" of the physician shortage, whereas it takes years to start (or even expand) an allopathic school. AOA appears to me not to care much about where all the experienced deans and professors are going to come from (or even how they're going to expand the AOA fast enough to supervise all the new schools), and how the osteopathic profession may be affected. Allopathic students are also watching. I can tell you that the school that I attend does not generate a profit, nor does the state expect it to (nor does my state osteopathic school, which is university-affiliated and state-supported).

You can't compare state supported schools to private schools. If private schools aren't coming up with money, they fold.
 
I don't see what the big deal is with a profit osteopathic medical school. What is the difference when the President of "non-profit" schools are taking $500,000 salaries?
 
I don't see what the big deal is with a profit osteopathic medical school. What is the difference when the President of "non-profit" schools are taking $500,000 salaries?

Apples. Oranges. The messy and unproductive discussion you're looking for is here.
 
I haven't read any of the forum, but the president of the AOA was actually at our school today and was asked about this issue.
From what I gathered, the AOA is not really for it, more against it if anything else. But the way the accredidation and stuff works they have absolutely no control over if they decide to be a for-profit school or not. There is licensing and other issues that seem to be more regulated by the federal govt, and if those are met and the school meets the requirements; they can be whatever they want.
 
I haven't read any of the forum, but the president of the AOA was actually at our school today and was asked about this issue.
From what I gathered, the AOA is not really for it, more against it if anything else. But the way the accredidation and stuff works they have absolutely no control over if they decide to be a for-profit school or not. There is licensing and other issues that seem to be more regulated by the federal govt, and if those are met and the school meets the requirements; they can be whatever they want.

B.S. The AOA controls how the accreditation criteria are developed and executed...Believe me, if high level AOA leadership wanted the Kibosh on for profit schools it would happen.
 
B.S. The AOA controls how the accreditation criteria are developed and executed...Believe me, if high level AOA leadership wanted the Kibosh on for profit schools it would happen.

There just seems to be such a disconnect between the AOA and it's membership's priorities these days. It's going to get much much bigger as more and more DO students enroll and go into allopathic residencies. Just a hypothetical question...can anyone else see a 1965 California'esque split in the profession coming in decade or two? Just some food for thought :)
 
There just seems to be such a disconnect between the AOA and it's membership's priorities these days. It's going to get much much bigger as more and more DO students enroll and go into allopathic residencies. Just a hypothetical question...can anyone else see a 1965 California'esque split in the profession coming in decade or two? Just some food for thought :)

I hope not. Bad news bears :(
 
4) I think only DOs worry about Rocky Vista. The AMA hasn't said anything. There is no activity on the allopathic or pre-allopathic forums about it. As someone else said in a different thread, even so-called non-profit schools generate a huge amount of "profit." It's just semantics. I don't have visions of greedy administrators charging an arm and a leg for a poor education. I just don't see that happening at all.

Not true, the AMA-Medical Student Section passed a resolution to explore the impact of for-profit medical institutions on the quality of medical education at the 2008 Interim meeting in Orlando.

Also, the AMA was very active in 1999 when Ross University attempted to establish a for-profit MD school in Wyoming. The AAMC, AMA, and LCME stepped in due to concerns about a for-profit status institution training physicians in the states.

Also, from Forbes:
"Tien's grand plan, revealed in an application with state accreditors, is to have tuition revenue explode from $2.7 million this year to $25 million in 2012 as four classes of students arrive on campus."
-yes all medical schools bring in money, but that money is spent inside the institution to better the education it offers, this money goes into the pockets of investors. Also, until the school receives full accreditation (it has provisional accreditation now), students are not eligible for government sponsored loans. That means private loans for a school that charges about 30,000/yr in tuition, all the while the founder keeps saying that the school will be focus on primary care (I'm sure I don't need to tell you how difficult it would be for someone to actually go into primary care with tuition like that plus living expenses plus private loan interest).

Here is the article if anyone cares to read:
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0929/060.html

Thanks,
 
B.S. The AOA controls how the accreditation criteria are developed and executed...Believe me, if high level AOA leadership wanted the Kibosh on for profit schools it would happen.



I'm sure that's how it really is. Just reporting what mr. prez said :p I totally wanted question about every other thing the aoa and oteopathic profession stands for, don't really it was quite the setting for that though :laugh:
 
I Read the article. Dont like it. At all.

Ten years ago a hospital in Denver shut down a residency program for D.O.s, and there were whispers that a group of osteopath-hating M.D.s played a role. Even so, Tien knew a for-profit school for osteopathic medicine was the only way to win accreditation--and make money. The American Medical Association nixed a plan by Ross University, which operates on the island of Dominica, to open a for-profit M.D. school in Wyoming in 1999. Charles Modica, a Tien family rival who owns St. George's University in Grenada, looked into starting a for-profit medical school in the U.S. more recently and found that accreditors insist the facility spend as much per student--up to $100,000 each--on labs, clinics and research facilities that are part of most medical centers. The economics don't work for profit-seekers.

Will the school turn out good physicians? I think so, at least at first. What worries me is we might see more of these schools in the future. This will be a slippery downhill slope for the DO world.
 
If the AOA and COCA want to open more schools, I'd like to see them spend their efforts working on opening more university-affiliated COM's and not these fly-by-night Starbuck-esque for-profit DO schools.

Case in point: They are BEGGING for a primary care focused medical school in the California Central Valley. It would be affiliated with a UC which would be a very big deal for the profession. Why isn't the AOA banging on doors in California to get a real state-sponsored school in the Central Valley??

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/sowinghope/

The resident for the article they interview is a DO! COCA is asleep at the wheel. Instead of marketing COM's to Mom-and-Pop private schools who want to use these newly accredited COM's as Cash-Cow ATM machines for state and federal health grants, focus on medium to large size state-sponsored universities...
 
If the AOA and COCA want to open more schools, I'd like to see them spend their efforts working on opening more university-affiliated COM's and not these fly-by-night Starbuck-esque for-profit DO schools.

Case in point: They are BEGGING for a primary care focused medical school in the California Central Valley. It would be affiliated with a UC which would be a very big deal for the profession. Why isn't the AOA banging on doors in California to get a real state-sponsored school in the Central Valley??

http://www.mercedsunstar.com/sowinghope/

The resident for the article they interview is a DO! COCA is asleep at the wheel. Instead of marketing COM's to Mom-and-Pop private schools who want to use these newly accredited COM's as Cash-Cow ATM machines for state and federal health grants, focus on medium to large size state-sponsored universities...

Do you know of any mechanism whatsoever to fight back against the AOA? I get the feeling it's like the police - the buck stops with them. If they choose to ignore your complaints, you're SOL.

I feel like throwing a rock in their office windows. Ahh!!!
 
I haven’t even started school yet, but I have already become irritated by the AOA. The organization appears to be representing only a small minority of the osteopathic community, mostly themselves and investors, and they are doing little to advance the profession as a whole. I suppose you could argue that the AOA has increased the professions recognition by opening 10 schools in the last ten years, with 7 more potentially on the way. But, right now, I don’t think the profession needs more schools or more students.

The current focus of the AOA should be on improving the training of current students. They need to, for example, work on opening more quality residencies, because when MD schools expand in the next few years, the currently available ACGME spots for DO students will dry up. Last year, there were 35,000 applicants for 25,000 or so ACGME spots, and its only going to get more competitive. So the AOA needs to act responsibility by increasing the number of osteopathic residency programs in all fields of medicine, while at the same time prohibiting the opening of any additional medical schools.

Moreover, the AOA needs to get ride of some of the whack bi-laws they have. For instance, the AOA needs to allow ACGME trained DO’s to become professors, chairmen, and deans of our medical schools, as well as program directors for our residency programs. Is it just me? Or is it ludicrous to exclude these qualified instructors from our medical education just because they did their training at an allopathic institution.

Oh, well. What do I know, anyway? I’m just a premed, and I guess the AOA knows what they are doing. Long live the multimillion dollar osteopathic museum being built in Washington, DC! That is such a great allocation of funding!
 
Unless the AOA puts an end to this stupidity, one has to wonder if there will be an end to for-profit DO schools. How many for-profit DO schools will open? 3? 10? 20?

Will the DO degree become synonomous with the worthless JD and MBA degrees coming out of diploma mills?
 
The AOA should adopt a resolution, for the time being, to ban the expansion of the profession. There are 7 more schools in the process of approval, which kind of scares me.
 
There just seems to be such a disconnect between the AOA and it's membership's priorities these days. It's going to get much much bigger as more and more DO students enroll and go into allopathic residencies. Just a hypothetical question...can anyone else see a 1965 California'esque split in the profession coming in decade or two? Just some food for thought :)

It's coming sooner than you realize.
 
Sorry to have to admit my ignorance, but I have looked around the internet and can't find any information of what happened in the Calfornia'esque split in 1965. Can someone please educate me? Thanks
 
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