Quantcast

AOA settles class action lawsuit

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Neopolymath

Renaissance Man
7+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2014
Messages
2,843
Reaction score
9,856
Too little, too late. They will never see a dime from me if at all possible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

Brorthopedic

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
789
Reaction score
2,840
I think ya'll are being a little too harsh on the AOA. Sure, membership requirement for board certification was ridiculous but overall the AOA does a lot of good for DOs
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
I think ya'll are being a little too harsh on the AOA. Sure, membership requirement for board certification was ridiculous but overall the AOA does a lot of good for DOs


like what run around like dodo birds saying "doctors to DO"
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

sab3156

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,679
I think ya'll are being a little too harsh on the AOA. Sure, membership requirement for board certification was ridiculous but overall the AOA does a lot of good for DOs

You are wrong. AOA has done nothing but embarrass themselves and the profession.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

Brorthopedic

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2015
Messages
789
Reaction score
2,840
You are wrong. AOA has done nothing but embarrass themselves and the profession.
No, I'm not wrong kid. Most of you just sip the kool-aid and hate on things because, well, it's what we do these days. I doubt you're even aware of their lobbying efforts or international works, let alone ever visited the AOA website.

It's not worth my time to sit here and defend the AOA though, keep doing you kiddo.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

sab3156

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,679
No, I'm not wrong kid. Most of you just sip the kool-aid and hate on things because, well, it's what we do these days. I doubt you're even aware of their lobbying efforts or international works, let alone ever visited the AOA website.

It's not worth my time to sit here and defend the AOA though, keep doing you kiddo.

Haha you come here to defend the cult known as the AOA, and then have the audacity to accuse us of "sipping the kool aid"... priceless.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

HotLunch96

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2015
Messages
179
Reaction score
232
No, I'm not wrong kid. Most of you just sip the kool-aid and hate on things because, well, it's what we do these days. I doubt you're even aware of their lobbying efforts or international works, let alone ever visited the AOA website.

It's not worth my time to sit here and defend the AOA though, keep doing you kiddo.
COCA is trash. The JAOA is trash. "The DO" is trash. The organization lobbies for self preservation, not constituent interests. Can't imagine your membership dues go to anything other than admin salaries and ****ty CME courses. Why waste your money? Now that membership and certification is decoupled, it will be very interesting to see how their membership numbers are affected going forward. I can't imagine many DOs see the utility in continuing to support the AOA. I, for one, will never be an AOA member.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
COCA is trash. The JAOA is trash. "The DO" is trash. The organization lobbies for self preservation, not constituent interests. Can't imagine your membership dues go to anything other than admin salaries and ****ty CME courses. Why waste your money? Now that membership and certification is decoupled, it will be very interesting to see how their membership numbers are affected going forward. I can't imagine many DOs see the utility in continuing to support the AOA. I, for one, will never be an AOA member.


I’m with you. Once I’m licensed I plan on lobbying against comlex, aoa, and work toward dissolution into LCME. Trying not to be pessimistic but everything the DO world hands out is a second rate sham of the MD counterpart. Plus maybe LCME will cut the rope on ridiculous explanation.
It’s hilarious they will no longer be getting licensing dues on a yearly or whatever basis after the merger. Lol suckers.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

sab3156

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,679
It’s hilarious they will no longer be getting licensing dues on a yearly or whatever basis after the merger. Lol suckers.

LOL the sad old AOA president came to our school and tried to convince us to forego ABMS licensing and instead choose AOA licensing, despite graduating from ACGME residencies. It was truly pathetic. One of his arguments was "it is good for the profession"... This organization is nothing but an evil cult.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
LOL the sad old AOA president came to our school and tried to convince us to forego ABMS licensing and instead choose AOA licensing, despite graduating from ACGME residencies. It was truly pathetic. One of his arguments was "it is good for the profession"... This organization is nothing but an evil cult.
We’ve had some clowns come to our school but not the king of cranial prez of the AOA.
Not sure why the expect handouts after reaming us for four years lol

It’s like the biggest fraud of the modern day the fact that universities and licensing organizations feel as if we owe them something after paying out ungodly amounts of money for substandard treatment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
You are wrong. AOA has done nothing but embarrass themselves and the profession.
No, I'm not wrong kid. Most of you just sip the kool-aid and hate on things because, well, it's what we do these days. I doubt you're even aware of their lobbying efforts or international works, let alone ever visited the AOA website.

It's not worth my time to sit here and defend the AOA though, keep doing you kiddo.


I am not aware. Please post links and inform me of their good doings since I have yet to see it
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Members don't see this ad :)

DrMcCoyDO

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2015
Messages
231
Reaction score
474
No, I'm not wrong kid. Most of you just sip the kool-aid and hate on things because, well, it's what we do these days. I doubt you're even aware of their lobbying efforts or international works, let alone ever visited the AOA website.

It's not worth my time to sit here and defend the AOA though, keep doing you kiddo.

Let’s see, the AOA fought the GME merger that has the potential to bring us closer to equality with our MD counterparts. They produced the massive embarrassment that was the “Doctors that DO” campaign. And finally, they continue to include the completely illogical and ridiculous concepts that are cranial and Chapman’s points (among others) on the COMLEX while insisting it’s as good as the USMLE (news flash: it’s not!). They used to be a solid organization which did a lot of good for DOs; they are no longer what they once were and seem to only exist to make money off the backs of osteopathic physicians while being willing to allow the DO name to be dragged through the dirt.

I’m proud of my professional letters, but I don’t have to be proud of the AOA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
Let’s see, the AOA fought the GME merger that has the potential to bring us closer to equality with our MD counterparts. They produced the massive embarrassment that was the “Doctors that DO” campaign. And finally, they continue to include the completely illogical and ridiculous concepts that are cranial and Chapman’s points (among others) on the COMLEX while insisting it’s as good as the USMLE (news flash: it’s not!). They used to be a solid organization which did a lot of good for DOs; they are no longer what they once were and seem to only exist to make money off the backs of osteopathic physicians while being willing to allow the DO name to be dragged through the dirt.

I’m proud of my professional letters, but I don’t have to be proud of the AOA.


He probably works for AOA or they’re giving him an ortho spot for bragging on them
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

Hernandez

Paranoid and Crotchety...
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
21,245
Reaction score
9,509
I think ya'll are being a little too harsh on the AOA. Sure, membership requirement for board certification was ridiculous but overall the AOA does a lot of good for DOs

I can’t find a rolleyes emoji that expresses enough disdain for this comment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

hallowmann

Full Member
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
6,638
Reaction score
8,301
Let’s see, the AOA fought the GME merger that has the potential to bring us closer to equality with our MD counterparts. They produced the massive embarrassment that was the “Doctors that DO” campaign. And finally, they continue to include the completely illogical and ridiculous concepts that are cranial and Chapman’s points (among others) on the COMLEX while insisting it’s as good as the USMLE (news flash: it’s not!). They used to be a solid organization which did a lot of good for DOs; they are no longer what they once were and seem to only exist to make money off the backs of osteopathic physicians while being willing to allow the DO name to be dragged through the dirt.

I’m proud of my professional letters, but I don’t have to be proud of the AOA.

I'm not a huge proponent of the AOA, but its difficult to argue that they have not done "anything" for the DO profession. When it comes to international practice rights for example, they've made pretty big strides to make the US DO degree recognizable in many countries as equivalent to the MD degree. That certainly doesn't negate the negatives, but its not like every single thing that comes from them is horrible.

More to that point, your first point is completely wrong. The AOA actually pushed very hard to make the MOC and merger work out. There was a very vocal large minority that opposed it at meetings and led to the cluster in late 2013 and then again in late 2014, but almost universally the AOA had been pro-merger. They also did a pretty good job in securing significant benefits for DOs, DO PDs, and others that translate to a pretty sweet deal despite the ACGME having by far the advantage in negotiations.

Anyway, again that's one thing, and it certainly doesn't negate the issue with the COMLEX, cranial, and COCA, but I just wanted to put some perspective in there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
I'm not a huge proponent of the AOA, but its difficult to argue that they have not done "anything" for the DO profession. When it comes to international practice rights for example, they've made pretty big strides to make the US DO degree recognizable in many countries as equivalent to the MD degree. That certainly doesn't negate the negatives, but its not like every single thing that comes from them is horrible.

More to that point, your first point is completely wrong. The AOA actually pushed very hard to make the MOC and merger work out. There was a very vocal large minority that opposed it at meetings and led to the cluster in late 2013 and then again in late 2014, but almost universally the AOA had been pro-merger. They also did a pretty good job in securing significant benefits for DOs, DO PDs, and others that translate to a pretty sweet deal despite the ACGME having by far the advantage in negotiations.

Anyway, again that's one thing, and it certainly doesn't negate the issue with the COMLEX, cranial, and COCA, but I just wanted to put some perspective in there.

It’s still hard to take them seriously when they promote crap like “perfectly matched” campaigns trying to validate the poopfest that is comlex USA and hold hands with coca
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

hallowmann

Full Member
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
6,638
Reaction score
8,301
Something few of us give a **** about.

And? Do you expect national organizations to always do things you care about? The AOA, like the AMA, is not really important to most physicians. The stuff they work on rarely affects docs outside of school/training, mainly because of their lack of power on the national stage.

Anyway again, I'm not all about the AOA, just trying to give some balance to the discussion. But it's honestly not worth any more time.

It’s still hard to take them seriously when they promote crap like “perfectly matched” campaigns trying to validate the poopfest that is comlex USA and hold hands with coca

I'm not aware of the "perfectly matched" campaign, but personally I find the COMLEX pointless in the setting of the USMLE and a COMAT on OMM, so fair enough...
 

Hernandez

Paranoid and Crotchety...
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
21,245
Reaction score
9,509
And? Do you expect national organizations to always do things you care about? The AOA, like the AMA, is not really important to most physicians. The stuff they work on rarely affects docs outside of school/training, mainly because of their lack of power on the national stage.

Anyway again, I'm not all about the AOA, just trying to give some balance to the discussion. But it's honestly not worth any more time.



.

The only thing they’ve done that affects me is find ways the take more money. I look forward to the day I can burn my membership card.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

Goro

Full Member
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 11, 2010
Messages
68,649
Reaction score
106,429
COCA is trash. The JAOA is trash. "The DO" is trash. The organization lobbies for self preservation, not constituent interests. Can't imagine your membership dues go to anything other than admin salaries and ****ty CME courses. Why waste your money? Now that membership and certification is decoupled, it will be very interesting to see how their membership numbers are affected going forward. I can't imagine many DOs see the utility in continuing to support the AOA. I, for one, will never be an AOA member.

I fully understand the sentiment, but the only way you can help the profession is to take over the organization from the inside, and purge the True Believers.

And really, international practice rights? How about practice rights here in the US, as in improving clinical education so that PDs won't discriminate against my grads simply because they're DOs who have been slimed by the reputations of weak students from other schools???
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users

sab3156

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,679
I fully understand the sentiment, but the only way you can help the profession is to take over the organization from the inside, and purge the True Believers.

We need to plant a self-sacrificing mole into the organization. Over several decades, this person will move up the ranks by acting as a true believer. By the time he is president, he will hopefully have gained the trust of much of the AOA. Then he will begin eliminating the most dangerous AOA members one by one.

Due to being part of the AOA, this person will never be able to be taken seriously by the real medical world, despite his incredible efforts. Only he and some trusted people among us who will offer clandestine support to him will know of his sacrifice. He will be the greatest unsung hero in the history of mankind.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Members don't see this ad :)

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
Yeah we should be able to vote in people as members our selves not just let them promote their buddies over and over. Guess we can write angry letters and I would say all join in to refuse to pay dues but dues are dead soon anyway.

Angry letters it is
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

BlueBleck

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
161
Reaction score
245
like what run around like dodo birds saying "doctors to DO"

They're one of the biggest reasons you're going to be a doctor. Who do you think pushed against the 1950s merger and the legislation that literally forbade the minting of new DOs? And who do you think accepted you when all of the MD schools rejected you? Again, the rise of DO schools is a big reason I get the privilege of counting many of you my peers. I may disagree with your sentiments on this, but fundamentally, I love all of my classmates and have loved all of the other DOs and DO students that I've met from other schools as well.

Additionally, they're going to be one of the only forces that is going to fight for you when you're discriminated against for not being an MD. Admittedly, this is becoming less and less of an issue, but it wasn't out of the kindness of the MD world that we're reaching that level of parity. When I told one of my attending mentors that I was taking a DO acceptance, he thought about it quietly for a moment, and told me to be better than them. The AOA is working to change those sentiments. And whether or not you believe it, that sort of sloganning works. Loyola's catchphrase is, "We also treat the human spirit." As hokey pokey as it is, why do you think an MD school is adopting that sort of language? Because to a lot of people, if not most people, that sort of stuff works. Unless of course you'd rather the image of your profession be entirely dictated by the masses, who, as we've all experienced, probably believe osteopathic physicians to be literal homeopaths.

Whatever the case, if you're willing to unilaterally disarm, then that's your prerogative. But do you believe that the AMA is going to have your back on DO discrimination issues as well as the AOA does? Because if the AOA continues to lose power like this, that's what's going to happen whether or not you believe the AMA is going to support you. Do keep in mind that in the match, there are rules against discriminating against international MDs, but not DOs. Some more context: My state AOA association has a long history of sending legal threats to schools that outright refuse to take DO students in audition rotations. Is the AMA going to offer you a fullthroated backing when such discrimination arises?

Keep in mind that these stories are recent:

DOs receive international recognition as fully licensed physicians - The DO
Title: DOs receive international recognition as fully licensed physicians

US DO school graduates to get new opportunities in the 2020 Canadian Match - The DO
SubTitle: DOs have become eligible for additional residency training opportunities in Canada since all 10 provinces now recognize DO graduates as equal to MDs.

Do you believe the AMA is going to be addressing these issues? Do you believe efforts of this sort are going to continue to be made without an osteopathic association? It's fine if you don't believe so. But I think if a lot of you sat down and really thought it through, you'd concede that the AOA, for all of its imperfections, is something that we should not so gleefully wish away.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

BlueBleck

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
161
Reaction score
245
This is me....still wishing it away.....

You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but the utter ingratitude is what strikes me the most. Like I certainly don't buy everything the AOA sells hook, line and sinker, but it is the case that I am in a DO program right now and having a good time. And I wouldn't be here without those who have paved a path before me.

And I think a reasonable question for you is, what exactly has the AOA done to inspire such ire from you? And I mean specifics.

Also, FWIW, at the federal level, it is the case that the AOA is indeed a source from where many federal advisory committees source physicians. Again: that's the power of being a coalition. The normalization of DOs as fully competent physicians derives from our participation in things such as those.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

sab3156

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,679
My state AOA association has a long history of sending legal threats to schools that outright refuse to take DO students in audition rotations. Is the AMA going to offer you a fullthroated backing when such discrimination arises?

LOL you do realize that the discrimination is always going to be there regardless of the audition rules, right? AOA is hilarious for trying, though. Maybe they should first try and become an organization that cares about evidence based medicine and gaining some respect in the real medical world, rather than pushing their deranged osteopathy principles that are nothing but pure embarrassment. That might be better than threatening legal action (which is going to do nothing but turn these hospitals off from osteopathy even more).
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

BlueBleck

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
161
Reaction score
245
LOL you do realize that the discrimination is always going to be there regardless of the audition rules, right?

Do you believe a demand for parity is stronger with or without the threat of legal force?

Maybe they should first try and become an organization that cares about evidence based medicine and gaining some respect in the real medical world, rather than pushing their deranged osteopathy principles that are nothing but pure embarrassment. That might be better than threatening legal action (which is going to do nothing but turn these hospitals off from osteopathy even more).

First of all, how much resources do they devote to, "pushing their deranged osteopathy principles"? If you hate it so much and so passionately, one would assume that you've done something as basic as trying to find the answer to that question. To make your opinions, "evidence based," no?

Second of all, does that rhetoric not bear resemblance to civil rights apologia? Our struggle is nothing compared to that, but a little bit of perspective about the power of simply being allowed to apply seems to be lacking. As Dr. King once said, "Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed." And of course for a second time, our struggle is nothing compared to the civil rights, but the principles are important to note. Which is that if we want something that by all rights we should be allowed, we have to demand it and work for it.

"I hope someday they'll consider osteopathic students," strikes me as a bizarre and ineffective method. And "I hope you'll consider osteopathic students," strikes me as less effective as, "I hope you'll give osteopathic students the opportunities that our state legislature requires that you do." Furthermore, I don't see how the lattermost of all the possibilities would lead to ridicule.

That said, I've interacted with my own state osteopathic association before. And something that I've learned was that UCSF fresno used to refuse osteopathic students even consideration for audition rotations. A letter from OPSC changed that very quickly and without actual litigation. And indeed these days, osteopathic students from california and beyond regularly rotate through there.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

Hernandez

Paranoid and Crotchety...
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
21,245
Reaction score
9,509
You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, but the utter ingratitude is what strikes me the most. Like I certainly don't buy everything the AOA sells hook, line and sinker, but it is the case that I am in a DO program right now and having a good time. And I wouldn't be here without those who have paved a path before me.

And I think a reasonable question for you is, what exactly has the AOA done to inspire such ire from you? And I mean specifics.

I’ve completed my training and been done for a while, the aoa has done nothing to make my life easier post training. and it seemingly goes out of the way to make practice more difficult and more expensive. OCC is but a single example. But it’s a damn big one. I paid $1400 on their self assessment OCC modules ($500 of which was just to register for the thing) and I feel dumber for having taken them. Thank god those are no longer required. Their websites are contradictory and incomplete on the certification requirements. They were a pia about getting my fellowship aoa/acoi approved to sit for boards

Advisory committees. Yippee. More idiotic barely clinic docs thrusting their definition of quality when they’re rehashing failed ideas. Ok so Manny Rivers isn’t a DO, but that’s the closest advisory committee that hits me every day at work. I’m sure much of ire is better directed at the ACOI and AOBIM but the cohorts overlap and they’re all guilty or taking and giving nothing back to the everyday doc who’s actually in the trenches and working. And in the midst of this they send surveys every other year and ask if I’ve left them in my will?!? They can have money when they give something of value. Not bureaucrat lip service.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
They're one of the biggest reasons you're going to be a doctor. Who do you think pushed against the 1950s merger and the legislation that literally forbade the minting of new DOs? And who do you think accepted you when all of the MD schools rejected you? Again, the rise of DO schools is a big reason I get the privilege of counting many of you my peers. I may disagree with your sentiments on this, but fundamentally, I love all of my classmates and have loved all of the other DOs and DO students that I've met from other schools as well.

Additionally, they're going to be one of the only forces that is going to fight for you when you're discriminated against for not being an MD. Admittedly, this is becoming less and less of an issue, but it wasn't out of the kindness of the MD world that we're reaching that level of parity. When I told one of my attending mentors that I was taking a DO acceptance, he thought about it quietly for a moment, and told me to be better than them. The AOA is working to change those sentiments. And whether or not you believe it, that sort of sloganning works. Loyola's catchphrase is, "We also treat the human spirit." As hokey pokey as it is, why do you think an MD school is adopting that sort of language? Because to a lot of people, if not most people, that sort of stuff works. Unless of course you'd rather the image of your profession be entirely dictated by the masses, who, as we've all experienced, probably believe osteopathic physicians to be literal homeopaths.

Whatever the case, if you're willing to unilaterally disarm, then that's your prerogative. But do you believe that the AMA is going to have your back on DO discrimination issues as well as the AOA does? Because if the AOA continues to lose power like this, that's what's going to happen whether or not you believe the AMA is going to support you. Do keep in mind that in the match, there are rules against discriminating against international MDs, but not DOs. Some more context: My state AOA association has a long history of sending legal threats to schools that outright refuse to take DO students in audition rotations. Is the AMA going to offer you a fullthroated backing when such discrimination arises?

Keep in mind that these stories are recent:

Title: DOs receive international recognition as fully licensed physicians

SubTitle: DOs have become eligible for additional residency training opportunities in Canada since all 10 provinces now recognize DO graduates as equal to MDs.

Do you believe the AMA is going to be addressing these issues? Do you believe efforts of this sort are going to continue to be made without an osteopathic association? It's fine if you don't believe so. But I think if a lot of you sat down and really thought it through, you'd concede that the AOA, for all of its imperfections, is something that we should not so gleefully wish away.


It was the only school I applied to. 515mcat 3.75 gpa. Went here bc it’s literally 5 mins from my house. But thanks for assuming I got rejected from md schools.
But I do agree we are Comrads but for us not to point out the obvious flaws of the aoa would be cultish at best. They seek to protect the DO title for their pockets and glory not for future students.

If they really wanted full parity the comlex would no longer exsist. They seek parity only to the point it keeps their coffers open and students enrolling in school. But by keeping the comlex post merger and forcing outdated omm practices (cranial, Chapman’s, etc) they are doing nobody but their egos and pockets good.

Please explain how they want parity but do not seek for us to take the same board exam????
Answer this and I might listen to your words
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

BlueBleck

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
161
Reaction score
245
It was the only school I applied to. 515mcat 3.75 gpa. Went here bc it’s literally 5 mins from my house. But thanks for assuming I got rejected from md schools.

eh. i'm in the same boat. top 15% at a top 10 public, published, great letters, decent mcat. figured I wanted to go near the deadline for DO applications, so I was already out of the running for MD schools. Rather than lose a year of attending salary, I hopped DO to a neighborhood school. But nevertheless, it is the case that for the majority of our DO peers, DO wasn't their prefered option. It was their last option.

And even for you, they offered something that MDs didn't. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. A touch of gratitude is warranted.

But I do agree we are Comrads but for us not to point out the obvious flaws of the aoa would be cultish at best.

I never said not to criticize them. Really, I think that's for the better. But neither should we ignore the pros. For it is a fact that there do exist pros. I follow the moral of cherston's fence, which is the idea that before you tear something down, you examine why it was initially erected. It doesn't disallow demolishing. It simply urges a fair and reasonable assessment of both the pros and the cons.

Hernandez mentioned some really great cons. I can't deny that the AOA has seemingly made his life worse. But I think he is too quick to dismiss, for instance, the optics of having DOs in advisory committees. Politics is about who you know. Simply acting on those committees places our people in visible locations for people to become familiarized with the letter. And when legislation is written, people will always add, "and DOs," after, "MDs." And regarding the publicity gains: there's no greater source of authority than a panel of physicians assembled to advise the federal government. As a practicing physician, sure he's within his rights to dismiss the recommendations. But to laypeople, such a gathering is a gathering of wisdom and knowledge. When DOs partake, we take a step to gaining brand parity. And the AOA facilitates that.

They seek parity only to the point it keeps their coffers open and students enrolling in school. But by keeping the comlex post merger and forcing outdated omm practices (cranial, Chapman’s, etc) they are doing nobody but their egos and pockets good.

Eh. don't really disagree. but would just note that it's their house. we joined it willingly. Having to learn that doesn't disallow you from learning and practicing EBM.

Please explain how they want parity but do not seek for us to take the same board exam????

I don't like that part either, but I still hold my views. So I don't think they're mutually exclusive views.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
eh. i'm in the same boat. top 15% at a top 10 public, published, great letters, decent mcat. figured I wanted to go near the deadline for DO applications, so I was already out of the running for MD schools. Rather than lose a year of attending salary, I hopped DO to a neighborhood school. But nevertheless, it is the case that for the majority of our DO peers, DO wasn't their prefered option. It was their last option.

And even for you, they offered something that MDs didn't. Otherwise you wouldn't be here. A touch of gratitude is warranted.



I never said not to criticize them. Really, I think that's for the better. But neither should we ignore the pros. For it is a fact that there do exist pros. I follow the moral of cherston's fence, which is the idea that before you tear something down, you examine why it was initially erected. It doesn't disallow demolishing. It simply urges a fair and reasonable assessment of both the pros and the cons.

Hernandez mentioned some really great cons. I can't deny that the AOA has seemingly made his life worse. But I think he is too quick to dismiss, for instance, the optics of having DOs in advisory committees. Politics is about who you know. Simply acting on those committees places our people in visible locations for people to become familiarized with the letter. And when legislation is written, people will always add, "and DOs," after, "MDs." And regarding the publicity gains: there's no greater source of authority than a panel of physicians assembled to advise the federal government. As a practicing physician, sure he's within his rights to dismiss the recommendations. But to laypeople, such a gathering is a gathering of wisdom and knowledge. When DOs partake, we take a step to gaining brand parity. And the AOA facilitates that.



Eh. don't really disagree. but would just note that it's their house. we joined it willingly. Having to learn that doesn't disallow you from learning and practicing EBM.



I don't like that part either, but I still hold my views. So I don't think they're mutually exclusive views.



i can see your point and probably would agree with much if we had a conversation over the AOA together. They seem to have given up much of their credit though and have not responded well in the past few years ever since pressure form the MD world has been pushed onto them. But for us the last few years is all we have been exposed to so it seems as if they are fairly meh when it comes to an organization. As students we are going to focus on the walls they build around our opportunities which seem to be, in the past few years, pretty large. The comlex is a deal breaker since touting that USMLE is not needed for decent matches is getting less and less true year by year and honestly they probably do not even know who will and won't take it after the merger. Too many empty words from the AOA and their time has come to pass into the abyss, which with the merger will likely happen slowly anyway
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)

BlueBleck

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
161
Reaction score
245
i can see your point and probably would agree with much if we had a conversation over the AOA together. They seem to have given up much of their credit though and have not responded well in the past few years ever since pressure form the MD world has been pushed onto them. But for us the last few years is all we have been exposed to so it seems as if they are fairly meh when it comes to an organization. As students we are going to focus on the walls they build around our opportunities which seem to be, in the past few years, pretty large. The comlex is a deal breaker since touting that USMLE is not needed for decent matches is getting less and less true year by year and honestly they probably do not even know who will and won't take it after the merger. Too many empty words from the AOA and their time has come to pass into the abyss, which with the merger will likely happen slowly anyway

I understand that a thousand or so goes a long way as a med student. But it's like a thousand dollars, which is honestly not that much. The difference in tuition between the different medical schools is higher than that. Yeah, it's also lame to have to take two exams, but it's a ~2hr/wk (OMM class) and 2 exam day difference in time commitment. It's an issue that I personally just shrug at. I can respect a difference of opinions, but at least personally, I don't see it as that high of a cost.

Anyways, just some context if you weren't aware: Prior to the merger, DOs had higher match rates than MD schools. That's probably a combination of self selection on the MD side (MDs have greater opportunities outside of the clinic such as consulting) as well as the protected match on our side. How things will shake out is anyone's guess. But honestly, I think students should take any school advice on matters pertaining to boards and residency with a grain of salt anyways. It's a well known meme that school curriculum, even at MD schools, is horrendously out of sync with board exams. Admins don't want their students to not match. That's like the worst possible solution. It's definitely not with malicious intent that that sort of rhetoric is being passed down. But it's not like an AOA exclusive thing. It's an old attending thing. "I came out of medical school and bought four houses and became a millionaire and walked uphill both ways," sort of a thing. Hell, it's not even an old physician thing. It's an old people thing.

Also, the merger was initiated by the student section of the AOA. And the reason was because ACGME was shutting AOA trained physicians out of fellowship opportunities due to the differences in AOA residency standards. It was more of an AMA pushing our hand sort of a thing. Not sure if you were peeved at the AOA for proposing the merger. But it was with heavy student input that the merger is happening at all. A lot of the terms were set by the students, as they literally wrote the original resolutions.

Whatever the case, I will say this. I hope you have a good day, my man. I said it before, but I like most of the people I've met in DO schools, and you're no exception. This is indeed a contentious issue, and it would be more surprising than not if there weren't dissenting voices. I respect those voices. I won't always share your opinions, but I can respect them if they're well thought out.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users

DrMcCoyDO

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 30, 2015
Messages
231
Reaction score
474
I understand that a thousand or so goes a long way as a med student. But it's like a thousand dollars, which is honestly not that much. The difference in tuition between the different medical schools is higher than that. Yeah, it's also lame to have to take two exams, but it's a ~2hr/wk (OMM class) and 2 exam day difference in time commitment. It's an issue that I personally just shrug at. I can respect a difference of opinions, but at least personally, I don't see it as that high of a cost.

The cost is not in money but respect. Some MD schools might teach outdated, un-scientific methods, but EVERY DO school does so when they teach cranial, Chapman’s, and even viscerosomatics (they make some sense logically, but there is no evidence for them). And then to make it worse, they test for them on our board exams! I’m studying for Level 3 right now, and I’m STILL getting questions on cranial. The cost is respect; our leaders are pushing something that’s the antithesis of what medicine is supposed to be while trying to be considered equals of the MD world. Until they cut that stuff out, there are still going to be more than a few who consider DOs a joke.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 10 users

WorldChanger36

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2009
Messages
3,009
Reaction score
677
They're one of the biggest reasons you're going to be a doctor. Who do you think pushed against the 1950s merger and the legislation that literally forbade the minting of new DOs? And who do you think accepted you when all of the MD schools rejected you? Again, the rise of DO schools is a big reason I get the privilege of counting many of you my peers. I may disagree with your sentiments on this, but fundamentally, I love all of my classmates and have loved all of the other DOs and DO students that I've met from other schools as well.

Additionally, they're going to be one of the only forces that is going to fight for you when you're discriminated against for not being an MD. Admittedly, this is becoming less and less of an issue, but it wasn't out of the kindness of the MD world that we're reaching that level of parity. When I told one of my attending mentors that I was taking a DO acceptance, he thought about it quietly for a moment, and told me to be better than them. The AOA is working to change those sentiments. And whether or not you believe it, that sort of sloganning works. Loyola's catchphrase is, "We also treat the human spirit." As hokey pokey as it is, why do you think an MD school is adopting that sort of language? Because to a lot of people, if not most people, that sort of stuff works. Unless of course you'd rather the image of your profession be entirely dictated by the masses, who, as we've all experienced, probably believe osteopathic physicians to be literal homeopaths.

Whatever the case, if you're willing to unilaterally disarm, then that's your prerogative. But do you believe that the AMA is going to have your back on DO discrimination issues as well as the AOA does? Because if the AOA continues to lose power like this, that's what's going to happen whether or not you believe the AMA is going to support you. Do keep in mind that in the match, there are rules against discriminating against international MDs, but not DOs. Some more context: My state AOA association has a long history of sending legal threats to schools that outright refuse to take DO students in audition rotations. Is the AMA going to offer you a fullthroated backing when such discrimination arises?

Keep in mind that these stories are recent:

DOs receive international recognition as fully licensed physicians - The DO
Title: DOs receive international recognition as fully licensed physicians

US DO school graduates to get new opportunities in the 2020 Canadian Match - The DO
SubTitle: DOs have become eligible for additional residency training opportunities in Canada since all 10 provinces now recognize DO graduates as equal to MDs.

Do you believe the AMA is going to be addressing these issues? Do you believe efforts of this sort are going to continue to be made without an osteopathic association? It's fine if you don't believe so. But I think if a lot of you sat down and really thought it through, you'd concede that the AOA, for all of its imperfections, is something that we should not so gleefully wish away.

Because they are catholic and they actually believe in a human spirit. Has nothing to do with “doctors that DO”.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users

zero0

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 21, 2014
Messages
1,318
Reaction score
2,779
91d.gif
 

sab3156

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2011
Messages
1,227
Reaction score
1,679
Do you believe a demand for parity is stronger with or without the threat of legal force?

The demand for parity is only strong if you present your profession's ideals as being equal to the other. When you see AOA's religious cult-like zeal surrounding the legacy of AT Still and other unscientific con-artists like Sutherland (the one who conjured up BLT and cranial osteopathy), you're just going to look stupid when you try demand parity. When the AOA comes out against unscientific and baseless practices, then maybe we will actually have a good argument for parity. As of now, the AOA is just stifling progress by doing things like promoting cranial osteopathy, sending their failure president around to DO schools to demand students take AOA specialty board certification in favor of ABMS, forcing people to take the COMLEX, their stupid "doctors that DO" campaign, marketing the osteopathic profession as being so holistic and amazing compared to MDs, etc.

There are MANY top programs in various specialties that will never take DOs. They openly say that they do not accept osteopathic applications nor do they allow osteopathic rotations. Look at WashU Ophthalmology, Hospital for Special Surgery Ortho, etc. The ones that do not openly say it can still practice that. Threatening them with legal action is going to do nothing but cause even more problems, especially when it's not really illegal to do that. Are low-tier MD schools suing Harvard hospitals, HSS, etc., for discriminating against their students and rarely taking them for audition rotations in competitive specialties? No, because they are focusing on making themselves better and not causing problems. AOA should look at the massive problems it has internally (dogmatic and unscientific and capitalistic things within the AOA) before trying to change others. It's so childish to scream and yell and threaten legal action instead of making yourself not look like a pseudoscience adherent.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

NurWollen

Strong with the Force
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Messages
3,419
Reaction score
2,533
The demand for parity is only strong if you present your profession's ideals as being equal to the other. When you see AOA's religious cult-like zeal surrounding the legacy of AT Still and other unscientific con-artists like Sutherland (the one who conjured up BLT and cranial osteopathy), you're just going to look stupid when you try demand parity. When the AOA comes out against unscientific and baseless practices, then maybe we will actually have a good argument for parity. As of now, the AOA is just stifling progress by doing things like promoting cranial osteopathy, sending their failure president around to DO schools to demand students take AOA specialty board certification in favor of ABMS, forcing people to take the COMLEX, their stupid "doctors that DO" campaign, marketing the osteopathic profession as being so holistic and amazing compared to MDs, etc.

There are MANY top programs in various specialties that will never take DOs. They openly say that they do not accept osteopathic applications nor do they allow osteopathic rotations. Look at WashU Ophthalmology, Hospital for Special Surgery Ortho, etc. The ones that do not openly say it can still practice that. Threatening them with legal action is going to do nothing but cause even more problems, especially when it's not really illegal to do that. Are low-tier MD schools suing Harvard hospitals, HSS, etc., for discriminating against their students and rarely taking them for audition rotations in competitive specialties? No, because they are focusing on making themselves better and not causing problems. AOA should look at the massive problems it has internally (dogmatic and unscientific and capitalistic things within the AOA) before trying to change others. It's so childish to scream and yell and threaten legal action instead of making yourself not look like a pseudoscience adherent.
Ironically, Dr. Mayo, AOA president, is himself ABMS certified.

Sent from my SM-G930V using SDN mobile
 
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users

Oh_Gee

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2013
Messages
1,742
Reaction score
1,188
We need to plant a self-sacrificing mole into the organization. Over several decades, this person will move up the ranks by acting as a true believer. By the time he is president, he will hopefully have gained the trust of much of the AOA. Then he will begin eliminating the most dangerous AOA members one by one.

Due to being part of the AOA, this person will never be able to be taken seriously by the real medical world, despite his incredible efforts. Only he and some trusted people among us who will offer clandestine support to him will know of his sacrifice. He will be the greatest unsung hero in the history of mankind.
this would be a good movie with Donald Glover or the Rock as the lead
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Black Coffee 24/7

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Jun 26, 2018
Messages
582
Reaction score
936
Ahahahaha, with their revenue (previously millions per year) from residency programs approaching zero after the merger, and their revenue from membership dropping, the AOA will go broke.

Get ready to see a massive rise in comlex fees and tuition.

Heck I wouldn't put it past them to raise the complex 1/2/3 fees to $1500, PE to $2-3k, and raising the fail rates to 10% on each.

Luckily for us, we will be done with this bs once they implement these new changes in 2-3 years.

AOA will become a thing of fairy tales in a decade.

It will be a welcoming change.
 

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
I’ve never seen An annual Revenue report with so many selfies. It’s almost like they are saying “check out these people don’t look at the numbers”
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

alprazoslam

Membership Revoked
Removed
Joined
Aug 5, 2018
Messages
709
Reaction score
1,701
Ahahahaha, with their revenue (previously millions per year) from residency programs approaching zero after the merger, and their revenue from membership dropping, the AOA will go broke.

Get ready to see a massive rise in comlex fees and tuition.

Heck I wouldn't put it past them to raise the complex 1/2/3 fees to $1500, PE to $2-3k, and raising the fail rates to 10% on each.


Yeah still pretty salty that the comlex cost more than USMLE and was not nearly the quality question wise or statistically significant. Jeez
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

hallowmann

Full Member
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
6,638
Reaction score
8,301
Ahahahaha, with their revenue (previously millions per year) from residency programs approaching zero after the merger, and their revenue from membership dropping, the AOA will go broke.

Get ready to see a massive rise in comlex fees and tuition.

Heck I wouldn't put it past them to raise the complex 1/2/3 fees to $1500, PE to $2-3k, and raising the fail rates to 10% on each.

The NBOME is the organization that gets money from COMLEX fees, and its not a part of the AOA, its a separate organization. COCA is part of the AOA, so school accreditation fees do feed into AOA budgets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

Hernandez

Paranoid and Crotchety...
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 14, 2004
Messages
21,245
Reaction score
9,509
The AOAO, per their website, states that we need to be members of AOA to be certified. I wonder if this will change based on the lawsuit.

It will go away. It’s the same with the acoi. I suspect effective 2019 but they haven’t made it official
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user

BlueBleck

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
161
Reaction score
245
Because they are catholic and they actually believe in a human spirit. Has nothing to do with “doctors that DO”.

The point stands even among other press campaigns. Affirming the human spirit is something that sells. If one regularly peruses the health editorial pages (eg NYT, wapo) (example: Opinion | Doctors, Revolt!), they all argue against the reductive and sterile side of medicine. Whether or not it appeals to you is a separate question about whether or not it appeals to the public. And broadly, it is more likely than not that it is a better message than the complete lack of a message. And to be sure, my explicit response to your snark is that it's not as important in this conversation where the message derives as much as whether or not it is a well received message.

Threatening them with legal action is going to do nothing but cause even more problems, especially when it's not really illegal to do that.

There are regulations in california that DOs must be considered as well as MDs. The reason for that has to do with anti-trust issues. That's a part of the reason how and why DOs won back their right to mint new DOs. If you can prove that you're adequate practitioners, you can't be barred from being accredited/practicing. MD institutions perpetuating MD only acceptances is an anti-trust issue.

And if you take a step back, is it for better or worse that the DOs were expanding when MDs weren't? Most who took a DO acceptance at that time took one over a caribbean acceptance and probably without an MD acceptance. and so such practitioners probably intuitively agreed that it was for the better that there existed an alternative.

Whatever actual DOs felt, the US is better off for all the physicians that DO institutions minted. DOs were expanding during a time of stasis for MD institutions and for the better of a country now suffering from a physician shortage. That's why anti-trust exists. Because this sort of competition is desirable.

It's so childish to scream and yell and threaten legal action instead of making yourself not look like a pseudoscience adherent.

Analogically: "It's so childish to scream and yell and threaten legal action against payday lenders for predatory practices instead of acquainting the victims with financial knowledge." I don't agree with the givens or the conclusion. Not that I am advocating for pseudoscience, but that it's just a non-sequitur. Even if overnight we stopped teaching that stuff, our brand wouldn't be cleaned up among many MDs. Most MD institutions likely know that most DO students don't care too much for OMM. It's not as if they're assuming that DO students are coming out as OMM hawks. They aren't.

As for the bit about low tier MDs, I think that's a strong counter point. But nevertheless, it's a sufficiently separate struggle than the licensing issues we're talking about. Imagine if harvard said, "asians need not apply." That's separate from it simply heavily discriminating against asians under a quasi-holistic approach. One passes current sniff tests, and one clearly does not. Maybe a better example is if UCLA said, "students from kipp high schools cannot apply." That's a very separate issue than if UCLA simply didn't respect the oakland school system.

Anyways, the legal system exists and there exist many good reasons why anti-trust regulations are a part of that system. I don't agree that it is childish to utilize such a system.
 

hallowmann

Full Member
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
6,638
Reaction score
8,301
The point stands even among other press campaigns. Affirming the human spirit is something that sells. If one regularly peruses the health editorial pages (eg NYT, wapo) (example: Opinion | Doctors, Revolt!), they all argue against the reductive and sterile side of medicine. Whether or not it appeals to you is a separate question about whether or not it appeals to the public. And broadly, it is more likely than not that it is a better message than the complete lack of a message...

To be completely honest, every non-medical friend/family member I've shown the "DOs that DO" stuff to have pretty much said the same thing. They actually think it works, and it gives them a more positive view of DOs (disclaimer: some were crunchy moms from CA). Now whether that will backfire in the future is unclear.

As far as on the medical side, outside of these forums I've not actually heard it talked about or seen any ads in person.

Regardless of how distasteful we might find it or how much more thought out it could be to be more meaningful/truthful, I actually think they are accomplishing what they want, i.e. making the DO profession more recognizable among patients and the non-medical public, even if its for the wrong reasons.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users

BlueBleck

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
161
Reaction score
245
To be completely honest, every non-medical friend/family member I've shown the "DOs that DO" stuff to have pretty much said the same thing. They actually think it works, and it gives them a more positive view of DOs (disclaimer: some were crunchy moms from CA). Now whether that will backfire in the future is unclear.

As far as on the medical side, outside of these forums I've not actually heard it talked about or seen any ads in person.

Regardless of how distasteful we might find it or how much more thought out it could be to be more meaningful/truthful, I actually think they are accomplishing what they want, i.e. making the DO profession more recognizable among patients and the non-medical public, even if its for the wrong reasons.

Total agreement. It's hokey pokey as hell. I'll be among the first to admit it. But god almighty when explaining DO to people, that's the line that hooks people in literally every time. When I say it, I'm like half hedging myself already too. I'm like, "yadda yadda fully licensed.., with some PT stuff, and there's a philosophical sort of thing I'm not super sure about where we try to see the person as a whole," and people just latch onto it like a bulldog. Because so many people have a, "my doctor was a dingus," story. And it's always followed up by, "i'm really glad to hear you're being trained like that."

That said, it's basically the same line that the nurses use. "heart of a nurse." It's silly, but I genuinely think it works. How high is public trust in nurse?

America's Most And Least Trusted Professions [Infographic]

Per their survey (gallup data), 82% say that nurses have very high honesty and ethical standards. By contrast, 65% of the public thinks the same of medical doctors. I think a part of this **is** the media campaign. Marketing heads make millions of dollars. They wouldn't make that if they couldn't produce results.

To circle back to the rhetoric about the osteopathic philosophy though. Zdogg had that sort of a dilemma with dr. mike. he wanted to hate the dude. But he ended up just being a solid practitioner. there's hokey pokey in the sale, but it's always a very bland sort that never crosses into dr oz level hokey pokey. It's more of like a reaffirmation saying, "hey we care about you as a person." which is stupid if you really think about it, because both MD and DOs care and it shouldn't require saying. But sometimes it does. I rationalize it to myself by comparing it to how you have to robotically say, "i'm sorry to hear that," when someone admits to some sort of hardship. Sometimes just saying it, even if it's fairly artificially programmed into you, means a lot to people.

That said, I was at the AOA HoD for SOMA. And one of the things they were trying to sell us on was basically having us use the rhetoric. There's going to be a lot of us, and if we don't start with, "student doctors who couldn't get into MD schools," we could do a lot for brand imaging. I think they're just looking for a consistent brand that we can all get behind. And is there anything more bland than, "we really do care for our patients."?
 
Top