APA vs APPIC for UCC internship

[annel]

Hey all,
I'm in the middle of interviewing at a ton of UCCs. About half are APA, half are not (and are APPIC approved.)

I see my long-term career goals to include work in a UCC, and private practice. I'd also like to supervise/train students.

How would completing an APPIC approved internship limit me, or make me less competitive for jobs in the future? In determining "fit" with an internship, I'm trying to determine how much emphasis I should place on APA accreditation. It's frustrating, because there are some APPIC sites that look to be great fits for me.

Thanks!

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[erg923]

No one is going to say anything you havent heard before, Im sure. It all applies here too of course.

Many jobs (including many UCCs) require an APA internship, so you will be limiting yourself right of the bat there. Many post-docs require it as well. So you are limited there. If you get sick of doing CC work all day, you wont be able to go the VA, DoD, or probably any large hospitals systems (outside the Kasier system in CA).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

APA-acred. is the standard, so anything other than that will put you a step (or more) down from other applicants when you look for a job. I'm sure there are some fine APPIC training sites, but the reality of the situation is that the most prudent approach when thinking "big picture" is APA-acred. only sites.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

APA-acred. is the standard, so anything other than that will put you a step (or more) down from other applicants when you look for a job. I'm sure there are some fine APPIC training sites, but the reality of the situation is that the most prudent approach when thinking "big picture" is APA-acred. only sites.

This. If you end up having to make a choice, regardless if it isn't your most favorite, go with the APA site.

 

[MCParent]

^agree.

You would be in competition for UCC jobs against a huge number of applicants who have APA internships.

 

[annel]

^agree.

You would be in competition for UCC jobs against a huge number of applicants who have APA internships.

Thanks for the feedback, all. Will this distinction be of importance mostly just when looking for postdocs? Or will the APA vs APPIC distinction make me more or less competitive for UCC jobs throughout the rest of my career?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks for the feedback, all. Will this distinction be of importance mostly just when looking for postdocs? Or will the APA vs APPIC distinction make me more or less competitive for UCC jobs throughout the rest of my career?

APA accreditation is likely to make you more competitive pretty much across the board, although I have no experience applying for UCC jobs, so I can't say that with absolutely certainty. Although you could think of it this way--a solid postdoc is going to make you more competitive for jobs, and APA accreditation will make you more competitive for a solid postdoc.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Will this distinction be of importance mostly just when looking for postdocs?
It will be important for post-doc bc it is an easy "first cut" for places that receive a plethora of applicants.

Or will the APA vs APPIC distinction make me more or less competitive for UCC jobs throughout the rest of my career?
I would argue that it will negatively impact your competitiveness for UCC jobs for at least your early career and mid-career years. I'd defer to UCC for more particular details. Job postings on the various listservs seems to offer a mixed bag.

 

[erg923]

I agree, for some small college in rural Wisconsin, it probbaly wouldnt be a factor because they likley want to draw in as much of a candiate pool to choose from, but its likley a deal breaker and larger Us/State Us

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In case other prospective intern applicants are reading….in a hospital setting it would be much more problematic. Competition tends to be stiffer and the regulations are far less forgiving. I'm not sure if there is a differentiation according to CAQH (they handle a lot of credentialing info for hospital systems), but I know during credential review by the med system everything is scrutinized.

Who knows where we will be in 5-10 years, but given that uncertainty…I'd want to have the "gold standard" and not worry about if another path of training is sufficient.

 

[annel]

So, I think I've decided to view APA accreditation as a factor among others. My top three sites are all APA accredited.

Beyond the top three, I think slots 4, 5, and 6 may be filled with APPIC sites that look amazing matches for my goals, and would seem to offer fantastic supervision.
Underneath those sites would be APA sites that are in less desireable locations and seem to be less of a good fit for me training needs.

Are others also ranking some APPIC sites above APA sites? Am I making a mistake by doing so?

 

[futureapppsy2]

So, I think I've decided to view APA accreditation as a factor among others. My top three sites are all APA accredited.

Beyond the top three, I think slots 4, 5, and 6 may be filled with APPIC sites that look amazing matches for my goals, and would seem to offer fantastic supervision.
Underneath those sites would be APA sites that are in less desireable locations and seem to be less of a good fit for me training needs.

Are others also ranking some APPIC sites above APA sites? Am I making a mistake by doing so?

Frankly, yes, you are. Going to a non-APA site can only hurt you, often significantly, and you can never, ever remedy that. Even if you have amazing credentials, if a job requires or screens on this basis of internship accreditation (which is becoming the norm due to intense market saturation), you're out. It's a decision that can quite literally affect your competitiveness for the rest of your career.

 

[463951]

So, I think I've decided to view APA accreditation as a factor among others. My top three sites are all APA accredited.

Beyond the top three, I think slots 4, 5, and 6 may be filled with APPIC sites that look amazing matches for my goals, and would seem to offer fantastic supervision.
Underneath those sites would be APA sites that are in less desireable locations and seem to be less of a good fit for me training needs.

Are others also ranking some APPIC sites above APA sites? Am I making a mistake by doing so?

I am ranking my 2 non APA sites at the very bottom, I am not even going to bother comparing and contrasting the pros and cons of these sites with my other 9 sites (APA) I am going to rank. And I may end up leaving the 2 non APA sites off of my list completely. I need to figure that out. As far as if you are making a mistake – it depends on what your career goals are, and also, I know that there are others on these threads who are much more informed than I am about the ramifications of a non APA internship.

 

[annel]

Frankly, yes, you are. Going to a non-APA site can only hurt you, often significantly, and you can never, ever remedy that. Even if you have amazing credentials, if a job requires or screens on this basis of internship accreditation (which is becoming the norm due to intense market saturation), you're out. It's a decision that can quite literally affect your competitiveness for the rest of your career.

Thanks. When you say "affect your competitiveness for the rest of your career," are you specifically talking about UCC's? My understanding is that people land pretty great post-docs in UCC's from APPIC sites. I know that the competitiveness issue would look much different if I were interested in forensic sites, VA's, etc...

 

[annel]

I am ranking my 2 non APA sites at the very bottom, I am not even going to bother comparing and contrasting the pros and cons of these sites with my other 9 sites (APA) I am going to rank. And I may end up leaving the 2 non APA sites off of my list completely. I need to figure that out. As far as if you are making a mistake – it depends on what your career goals are, and also, I know that there are others on these threads who are much more informed than I am about the ramifications of a non APA internship.

What sorts of sites are you applying to? What setting do you want to work in?

 

[463951]

What sorts of sites are you applying to? What setting do you want to work in?

Hospitals/Prisons (mostly hospitals). My interests are forensic and I would like to work in a hospital upon graduation, and then private practice later on. I am assuming you are applying to UCC's?

 

[annel]

Hospitals/Prisons (mostly hospitals). My interests are forensic and I would like to work in a hospital upon graduation, and then private practice later on. I am assuming you are applying to UCC's?

Given your career interests, I can see why APA would be essential. I am applying to UCC's, and would like to work at a UCC later on, or private practice.

As a side note, I know a significant number of people in my program who have/are prioritizing fit over APA accreditation. These folks are interested in UCC work.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

One potential issue would be that while you would like to work at a UCC now, there may be other opportunities (in the near or distant future) that seem great, but that you aren't eligible for if your internship isn't APA-accredited. Additionally, it might be the case that there aren't UCC positions where you'd like to live, but there are spots with other organizations...again, which might require APA accreditation.

 

[463951]

Given your career interests, I can see why APA would be essential. I am applying to UCC's, and would like to work at a UCC later on, or private practice.

Yeah, it is a difficult decision! I don't want a non APA site to limit me, but I can't imagine doing this whole process all over again (although this may not even be up to me, APA or non APA!). I hate this process so much. I really don't know how I am going to get through the next 3 weeks. From what research you have done, does a non APA internship impact you heavily if you want to work in a UCC?

 

[cara susanna]

You'll also be competing with other people who want to work at UCCs who did complete APA internships.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Thanks. When you say "affect your competitiveness for the rest of your career," are you specifically talking about UCC's? My understanding is that people land pretty great post-docs in UCC's from APPIC sites. I know that the competitiveness issue would look much different if I were interested in forensic sites, VA's, etc...

In general. UCCs are just as flooded with post-doc and job applicants as other types of sites, and eliminating applicants based on internship accreditation is a quick and easy way to shrink your applicant pool to more manageable numbers.

 

[cara susanna]

I hate this process so much. I really don't know how I am going to get through the next 3 weeks.

Amen to that! I'm glad APPIC spends so much time verifying results and making sure everything's accurate, but I sure wish this process wasn't so drawn out.

 

[463951]

Amen to that! I'm glad APPIC spends so much time verifying results and making sure everything's accurate, but I sure wish this process wasn't so drawn out.

Right! Same here. It would suck if somebody didn't match due to a "technical error" or something! But yeah, I need to seriously distract myself. I'm just so tired of everybody talking about this process at school and practicum, and asking me about my interviews, then I start thinking about them, and then I am like oh, I can't believe I answered that question that way, there's nothing I can do now, I just don't want to talk about it!! I wish I could hide for the next 3 weeks, lol.

 

[G Costanza]

Given your career interests, I can see why APA would be essential. I am applying to UCC's, and would like to work at a UCC later on, or private practice.

As a side note, I know a significant number of people in my program who have/are prioritizing fit over APA accreditation. These folks are interested in UCC work.

That just seems crazy to me. I understand that fit is important but APA accreditation just seems so vital going forward - even in a UCC. I'm UCC bound for a career and my sense (obviously not research) is that directors expect APA accreditation when hiring staff. It gives the counseling center more credibility especially when they have to justify hiring another staff member to the university.
I applied to 20 sites and all of them APA accredited UCC's. My program requires that we attend an APA site but I would have done it the same way regardless. To rank an APPIC site over an APA site is just asking for trouble. Not to mention that you don't really know what you're getting into because there is little accountablity compared to an APA site.

I could just see someone from an APPIC site interviewing for a job and the director says, "And you want to be my latex salesman..." I bet it happens everyday.

 

[annel]

Hmm. Yikes. Now I'm totally second-guessing my ranking approach.

 

[MCParent]

Underneath those sites would be APA sites that are in less desireable locations and seem to be less of a good fit for me training needs.

...Am I making a mistake by doing so?

Yes. Absolutely.

As a side note, I know a significant number of people in my program who have/are prioritizing fit over APA accreditation. These folks are interested in UCC work.

They are making a bad decision.

In general. UCCs are just as flooded with post-doc and job applicants as other types of sites, and eliminating applicants based on internship accreditation is a quick and easy way to shrink your applicant pool to more manageable numbers.

This, exactly.

 

[annel]

Yes. Absolutely.



They are making a bad decision.



This, exactly.

Hmm. I appreciate your perspective, but how do you know what TDs at UCCs are looking for? I'm still not convinced that APPIC sites are a bad idea for someone just interested in private practice or UCC work. I know people at APPIC sites who have had no trouble getting postdoc interviews.

Matt

 

[erg923]

Hmm. I appreciate your perspective, but how do you know what TDs at UCCs are looking for? I'm still not convinced that APPIC sites are a bad idea for someone just interested in private practice or UCC work. I know people at APPIC sites who have had no trouble getting postdoc interviews.

Matt

That poster is graduate of well-known counseling psychology program, attended a counseling psychology internship, and is currently an assistant professor who is extensively involved in student training issues. He has also published on the match imbalance and the variables that contribute to it.

 

[erg923]

Hmm. I appreciate your perspective, but how do you know what TDs at UCCs are looking for? I'm still not convinced that APPIC sites are a bad idea for someone just interested in private practice or UCC work. I know people at APPIC sites who have had no trouble getting postdoc interviews.

Matt

I think there's a saying that God laughs while you make plans.

One needs a career trajectory of course, but to assert that you dont need an APA internship because you "will only be in a UCC or PP" BEFORE you have even left graduate school sounds extraordinarly naive. I am not sure of the research on this, but I would guess that only a minority of people end up having the exact career/job or job path that they initially thought they would (or had planned in their late 20s).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think there's a saying that God laughs while you make plans.

One needs a career trajectory of course, but to assert that you dont need an APA internship because you "will only be in a UCC or PP" BEFORE you have even left graduate school sounds extraordinarly naive. I am not sure of the research on this, but I would guess that only a minority of people end up having the exact career/job or job path that they ideally they initially thought they would (or had planned in their late 20s).

This is what I was speaking to above. We all know where we would like to work, but my thoughts on that have certainly changed between grad school and now. And beyond that, there's no telling what opportunities and/or restrictions the future may hold; the most of those for which you can make yourself eligible and competitive, the better.

 

[MCParent]

Hmm. I appreciate your perspective, but how do you know what TDs at UCCs are looking for? I'm still not convinced that APPIC sites are a bad idea for someone just interested in private practice or UCC work. I know people at APPIC sites who have had no trouble getting postdoc interviews.

Matt

Are you seeking advice, or just confirmation to pursue the course you have already decided to undertake? It seems like the latter.

If you'd prefer to simply discount the opinions of the (now, several) people who disagree with the course you've decided upon, that seems irrational to me but there's not much anyone on the board can do about it.

Accreditation is important to UCCs. You will be competing against people who have accredited internships. That is a disadvantage.

 

[MCParent]

I think there's a saying that God laughs while you make plans.

One needs a career trajectory of course, but to assert that you dont need an APA internship because you "will only be in a UCC or PP" BEFORE you have even left graduate school sounds extraordinarly naive. I am not sure of the research on this, but I would guess that only a minority of people end up having the exact career/job or job path that they initially thought they would (or had planned in their late 20s).

Yes, this, as well.

 

[psyunknown]

So I can speak as someone who has trained at a number of UCC's with internships/post docs and I am on a career path to be a staff psychologist within a UCC. I understand the desire for fit/location/etc. for internship, but if you want to work at a UCC (particularly one with a training program) you better have an APA internship. The people who get jobs/post-docs without an APA internship are the exception NOT the rule. When I applied for internship I ONLY applied to APA sites because of how competitive UCC's have become and how without the stamp from APA your process is going to be more limited and difficult. I hear that you want to put fit above APA accreditation, but this is a mistake and a mistake that could potentially limit your future career opportunities.

 

[annel]

So I can speak as someone who has trained at a number of UCC's with internships/post docs and I am on a career path to be a staff psychologist within a UCC. I understand the desire for fit/location/etc. for internship, but if you want to work at a UCC (particularly one with a training program) you better have an APA internship. The people who get jobs/post-docs without an APA internship are the exception NOT the rule. When I applied for internship I ONLY applied to APA sites because of how competitive UCC's have become and how without the stamp from APA your process is going to be more limited and difficult. I hear that you want to put fit above APA accreditation, but this is a mistake and a mistake that could potentially limit your future career opportunities.

Thanks for the replies all. I'm rethinking my strategy, and I'm thinking I'll bump up some APA sites higher in my rankings. Frankly, part of my decision-making process is based off the fact that one of the APPIC sites is very close to where I live now, and I have a new girlfriend who I'm really excited about. It would great to be there to be close to the town I'm in school(I like this area, and I like her), rather than being at a APA site in the middle of nowhere. I'm pretty scared that distance could hurt our relationship.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thanks for the replies all. I'm rethinking my strategy, and I'm thinking I'll bump up some APA sites higher in my rankings. Frankly, part of my decision-making process is based off the fact that one of the APPIC sites is very close to where I live now, and I have a new girlfriend who I'm really excited about. It would great to be there to be close to the town I'm in school(I like this area, and I like her), rather than being at a APA site in the middle of nowhere. I'm pretty scared that distance could hurt our relationship.

Please understand that this is just my personal take--I wouldn't let a new relationship significantly affect a decision/outcome that could substantially and indefinitely impact my long-term career options and, therefore, my life as a whole. HOWEVER, that's just me; everyone has different priorities, and I appreciate that. Although I can say that two-thirds of my internship class made long-distance relationships work while on internship, and I know they certainly weren't alone nationwide in that regard.

 

[erg923]

New relationships, are just that. New. Unknown. Marriages are marriages, so they can withstand a commute relationship for 1 year, if necessary. Seeing that this one year sets you up for the next 30, I dont think many would advise that is a risk benefit analyis that makes any sense.

 

[annel]

Thanks, all. I interviewed at a number of APPIC sites that are in the process of writing their self-study, and anticipate having a site visit soon. These sites all look solid to me, and think they will become accredited in the next year, though, they cannot make guarantees.

Would all recommend ranking these sites above other APPIC sites? Or treating them as though like any other APPIC site and assuming they may not become accredited this year?

 

[futureapppsy2]

Honestly, I don't think anyone here (or anyone who knows the field, really) is going to tell you that you should rank APPIC sites above APA ones, no matter how much you wish they would. The truth is that are considerable costs to attending a non-APA site in terms of finding post-docs and jobs, specializing, etc. Of course, people can be successful coming from APPIC sites, but it is knowingly putting yourself at a considerable disadvantage and one that is growing as the saturation problem increases. Given how short internship is and how slow the accreditation process often is, I wouldn't count on any sites getting a final site visit while you're there. Could it happen? Sure. Is it worth betting on like this? Probably not.

IMO, the only situation in which opting for a non-APA site over an APA option makes sense is for school psych PhD students who are sure they only want to work in the schools and really need or want to stay local.

 

[Jobless Ph.D.]

Here you go: Here are what people are looking for in postdoc and employees in UCCs . . . (positions in college counseling website) http://www2.kumc.edu/people/llong/picc/list.asp

 

[cara susanna]

Right, but you have to remember that even if the position doesn't require it, you will be competing with people who completed an APA internship. I know someone applying for one of the positions on that list who is currently on internship at an APA site, and even though the site doesn't specify APA I doubt that won't give this person some competitive edge if they're competing with applicants from non-APA internships.

 

[MCParent]

Thanks, all. I interviewed at a number of APPIC sites that are in the process of writing their self-study, and anticipate having a site visit soon. These sites all look solid to me, and think they will become accredited in the next year, though, they cannot make guarantees.

Would all recommend ranking these sites above other APPIC sites? Or treating them as though like any other APPIC site and assuming they may not become accredited this year?

I'd be careful about sites that "say" they "expect" to be accredited by xyz date. I personally know multiple people who have been screwed over by such things.

It you end up deciding that you must rank the non-APA sites, I guess it would made sense to rank the ones that are pursuing accreditation higher, but I'd not take their expressed desire for accreditation as the deciding factor; do they have the site visit SCHEDULED? Is the self-study DONE? If not, I'd treat them like other unaccredited programs.

 

[annel]

Thanks for your feedback all. Based on this thread, I have come up with a joke:

What do APPIC internship sites and herpes have in common?

They both scar you FOR LIFE!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd be careful about sites that "say" they "expect" to be accredited by xyz date. I personally know multiple people who have been screwed over by such things.

It you end up deciding that you must rank the non-APA sites, I guess it would made sense to rank the ones that are pursuing accreditation higher, but I'd not take their expressed desire for accreditation as the deciding factor; do they have the site visit SCHEDULED? Is the self-study DONE? If not, I'd treat them like other unaccredited programs.

Seconded. I don't know the average amount of time that passes between submission of the self-study materials and actual granting of accreditation, but if it's less than a year, I'd be pretty surprised. Mind you, that's just my (uninformed) thought. But if a site hadn't even submitted their self-study yet, I personally wouldn't bank on them gaining accreditation while I was around.

Although APA has said they're working on streamlining the internship accreditation process, so who knows.

 

[annel]

So I've changed things around on my rankings to prioritize APA accreditation. However, I still can't justify putting a few APA sites that I'm unenthusiastic about above APPIC sites that seem like a great fit. If I were matched to these APA sites, I would be dreading going there...and that seems like situation I don't want to put myself in.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

So I've changed things around on my rankings to prioritize APA accreditation. However, I still can't justify putting a few APA sites that I'm unenthusiastic about above APPIC sites that seem like a great fit. If I were matched to these APA sites, I would be dreading going there...and that seems like situation I don't want to put myself in.

Yep, ultimately it's your call. We're just pointing out the potential difficulties that might await folks completing a non-accredited internship. But plenty of people do it every year.

 

[annel]

Are any of you all ranking sites highly that are in locations that are highly undesireable? I imagine being pretty depressed in that situation. I need a city somewhat nearby to keep me sane.

 

[psychRA]

Are any of you all ranking sites highly that are in locations that are highly undesireable? I imagine being pretty depressed in that situation. I need a city somewhat nearby to keep me sane.

In my opinion, matching to a geographically undesirable site is substantially better than not matching at all. It's only a year. And if you haven't lived outside of a city before, you may be suprised to realize that you can be just fine in another setting. For me, an APA site in a geographically less desirable area would definitely outrank a non-APA site.

 

[erg923]

With all due respect, thousands of men and women due tours of duty in 120 degree warzones where there doesn't thappen to be a Starbucks on every corner. I think some adapatibility may be in order here. Plant roots where you want and needs, that stability/environment is important for a marriage and a family. But, my take is that you can/should be able to live amywhere for a year if it benefits the rest of your professional life.

 

[annel]

With all due respect, thousands of men and women due tours of duty in 120 degree warzones where there doesn't thappen to be a Starbucks on every corner. I think some adapatibility may be in order here. Plant roots where you want and needs, that stability/environment is important for a marriage and a family. But, my take is that you can/should be able to live amywhere for a year if it benefits the rest of your professional life.

Comparing internship to a war just quite doesn't fit for me. I agree that APA internships are preferable, clearly. I've had a shisty training year this year, with a supervisor who has made me question my competence and sucked my passion for this work out of me. My #1 priority on internship is landing in a spot where I'll feel supported, and also happy. I do think quality of life matters, war-zone or not.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The internship year typically flies by because you'll start looking at post-docs/fellowships/jobs about 6 months into the training.