APhA president- we need an additional 100,000 pharmacists!

[Leper Messiah]

Does it make it more trifling if it's across from a Chinese church as opposed to, say. a Catholic church?

High concentration of Chinese girls next door? Where do I apply?

Thanks for the information. At this point, do you know what the bill's legislative status is? (e.g., when the next vote is expected to be held, by when will it be known whether the legislation is going to pass or not, etc.)

I found this for the two bills:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/592?q={"search":["\"hr592\""]}&resultIndex=1

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th...ttees?q={"search":["\"s314\""]}&resultIndex=1

I too would like to know when the voting will take place though.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Flipping pharmacy education...if they mean that they're flipping PharmDs to students the same way people flip houses and leaving their graduates with the bags of $200k+ loans, then it makes perfect sense.

I'm glad you brought up your confusion over Flipped learning. You can google flipped learning and find a lot of information and research studies related to the effectiveness of this type of teaching method.

In a nutshell, the Flipped method provides much of the material that would normally be covered in class to the students beforehand. The students study this material before the class, and when they come to class the time is spent discussing the information further, doing assignments that allow the students to apply the material they learned before class, an engage in other active learning yes of activities. An assessment of the students knowledge of the material can be done at the beginning of class. That way the professor can spend time clarifying and providing additional information for those concepts the students had trouble understanding. So a flipped class allows for more higher level learning during the class time, rather than the professor just giving a lecture.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

High concentration of Chinese girls next door? Where do I apply?



I found this for the two bills:

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/house-bill/592?q={"search":["\"hr592\""]}&resultIndex=1

https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/314/committees?q={"search":["\"s314\""]}&resultIndex=1

I too would like to know when the voting will take place though.

Contact your legislators, and have your family contact theirs as well. Tell your legislators that you want the bills brought forward for a vote. The more people the legislators hear from, the more pressure will be put on them to give the bills a hearing. We can use all the help we can get. Be part of the solution! It will feel great!

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Lawrence Brown is currently the associated Dean of Chapman University and last year's APhA president. He goes on SDN to recruit students and according to him, the profession will need an additional "100,000 or so pharmacists" to meet future demand. I am not kidding you! Read it yourself:

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

I know that you guys find this hard to believe, but I predict that in 10 years or so, there will be close to 400,000 pharmacists. I know that there will continue to be increasing demand for embedded pharmacists, because just in the past 3 years I have seen more and more pharmacists hired by medical groups, ACO's, and care transition organizations. And I have also seen more pharmacists open up their own business to provide MTM and Chronic Care Management services.

And I don't mind being mocked or thought of as crazy, lots of people throughout history have endured the same and much worse.

But I'm also putting my money where my mouth is by supporting those pharmacists who are trying to do more, and supporting those pharmacy associations that are working to expand the opportunities for pharmacists.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Contact your legislators, and have your family contact theirs as well. Tell your legislators that you want the bills brought forward for a vote. The more people the legislators hear from, the more pressure will be put on them to give the bills a hearing. We can use all the help we can get. Be part of the solution! It will feel great!

Is a hearing scheduled yet, or do the legislators need to hear from more people before they'll schedule one?

 

[Dalteparin]

I'm not saying pay and working conditions aren't important, just that showing we care about patients should be the primary focus.

I don't think there's a single person here who does not care about patients. But it's awfully difficult to show them that when you've been standing on your feet getting screamed at about copays for 10 hours or didn't get a break and your "lunch" was a bag of Cheetos and an energy drink (which you ate standing up and verifying prescriptions).

Also, in case you missed it from my earlier post: How long has it been since you looked for a pharmacist job? This is the third time I've asked and you still have not responded. I will continue to ask until you respond.

 

[Dalteparin]

As for APhA, you are correct, the number of pharmacists members is extremely low. Only about 30,000 or so. But low pharmacist membership is true for ASHP, AMCP, and all other national pharmacy associations.

According to this AFL-CIO fact sheet: http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publi...s-and-pharmacy-technicians-facts-and-figures/ there are about 287,000 pharmacists in the US, and 60% of them, or ~172,000 work retail. So, if we assume that everybody in APhA is a retail pharmacist, about 17% of retail pharmacists are in APhA. The same report says that ~20% of the pharmacists in the US work hospital, so there are ~60,000 hospital pharmacists in the US. According to their website, ASHP has 40,000 members - so roughly 2/3rds of the hospital pharmacists in the US are members of ASHP.

I encourage APhA to really think hard and ask themselves why these numbers are the way they are and what they should do about them.

 

[BMBiology]

I know that you guys find this hard to believe, but I predict that in 10 years or so, there will be close to 400,000 pharmacists. I know that there will continue to be increasing demand for embedded pharmacists, because just in the past 3 years I have seen more and more pharmacists hired by medical groups, ACO's, and care transition organizations. And I have also seen more pharmacists open up their own business to provide MTM and Chronic Care Management services.

And I don't mind being mocked or thought of as crazy, lots of people throughout history have endured the same and much worse.

But I'm also putting my money where my mouth is by supporting those pharmacists who are trying to do more, and supporting those pharmacy associations that are working to expand the opportunities for pharmacists.

I will give you credit for coming on this forum and for sticking around. We all want what you are preaching but look around you. Things are getting worse, not better. We will continue down this road as long as Chapman and a billion other pharmacy schools keep on pumping out new students.

What you are saying is not new. Pharmacy schools have been saying the same thing for the last 30 years. Provider status is the new buzzword. In a few years, provider status will be forgotten and another buzzword will pop up. I have seen this movie before. People like you are going to off in the sunset with your nice pension. It is not personal right? It is just business.


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[ldiot]

In addition to the massive saturation, the fed has interest rates so low pharmacy and health care companies are consolidating like crazy. Chain pharmacies are buying everyone out and the PBMs have grown from nonexistent to 10s of billions in profit in a decade. Less employers when chains are buying each other out, less profit when PBMs run the show (look at the pharmacies trying to diversify revenue with speciality drugs and LTC buyouts), less hours, worse work conditions, residency needed for anything outside of retail... it's now more effective to raise profits by cutting costs than increasing volume.

Combine the economics of the corporate corporate pharmacy/reimbursement/revenue streams/profit margins with the pharmacy saturation and things could get ugly. And can't forget the mail orders with automated filling machines that can pump out 100k scripts a week now. Then you have Walmart that is willing to take a loss on drugs just for the store traffic; great for the profession.

 

[PharmDBro2017]

I'm glad you brought up your confusion over Flipped learning. You can google flipped learning and find a lot of information and research studies related to the effectiveness of this type of teaching method.

In a nutshell, the Flipped method provides much of the material that would normally be covered in class to the students beforehand. The students study this material before the class, and when they come to class the time is spent discussing the information further, doing assignments that allow the students to apply the material they learned before class, an engage in other active learning yes of activities. An assessment of the students knowledge of the material can be done at the beginning of class. That way the professor can spend time clarifying and providing additional information for those concepts the students had trouble understanding. So a flipped class allows for more higher level learning during the class time, rather than the professor just giving a lecture.

Our school attempted this during our p3 year, and I know a majority of the class would say it was a disaster. What a waste of time. Any student would be much better off reading a textbook for 2hrs rather than listening to their idiot class mates have a discussion for 2hrs.

Just another way that the teacher doesn't actually have to teach... just get paid to show up and stand there while students discuss something they don't know anything about (because they haven't been taught it yet).

 

[IlDestriero]

Lawrence Brown is currently the associated Dean of Chapman University and last year's APhA president. He goes on SDN to recruit students and according to him, the profession will need an additional "100,000 or so pharmacists" to meet future demand. I am not kidding you! Read it yourself:






Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

Of course you need 100k more pharmacists! If Walmart and the rest of the big boys want only part time workers, you know... for flexibility, you need a lot more pharmacists!
At least you know who your leadership is in bed with. You'll taste some bile when you have to write your next dues check.


--
Il Destriero

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Is a hearing scheduled yet, or do the legislators need to hear from more people before they'll schedule one?

A hearing hasn't been scheduled yet, so we definitely need more people to contact their legislator and push for them to hold a hearing.

 

[BMBiology]

A hearing hasn't been scheduled yet, so we definitely need more people to contact their legislator and push for them to hold a hearing.

So let me get this straight. After 2 years you still need students to contact their legislator? It is time for another buzzword!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

I don't think there's a single person here who does not care about patients. But it's awfully difficult to show them that when you've been standing on your feet getting screamed at about copays for 10 hours or didn't get a break and your "lunch" was a bag of Cheetos and an energy drink (which you ate standing up and verifying prescriptions).

Also, in case you missed it from my earlier post: How long has it been since you looked for a pharmacist job? This is the third time I've asked and you still have not responded. I will continue to ask until you respond.

Although you care about your patients, you feel that the lousy working conditions make it difficulty to express that caring.

However, there are challenges in nearly every career field. It is easy to bring up the reasons why you can't do something, but it is more difficult, though not impossible, to continue to do what is right in spite of the challenges.

As for your question related to my job seeking history, the last time I looked for a pharmacist job was three years ago when I got this job as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. But I know that isn't the type of pharmacist job you are talking about. You mean a "real pharmacist" job. You think by having me answer that question it will prove that I am out of touch with what is going on out there in the "real pharmacist" job market.

The problem with that notion is that I it isn't necessary for me to have looked for a "real pharmacist" job lately, in order for me to know what is going on in the job market. However, I have lots of pharmacists friends all over the US, who I talk to regularly, and I also meet pharmacists at all of the pharmacy association meetings I go to, and I talk to the recruiters for the top pharmacy chains. And everyone I have talked to says that the the job market is tightening, but there are still plenty of jobs out there. I also talked to the students at the pharmacy schools where I gave commencement addresses the past 2 years, and all of them had jobs lined up.

People seem to be getting the issue of being able to get a job, mixed up with the desire to get any job I want, anywhere I want. That's not the norm in any other industry, so why are people expecting that to be the norm in pharmacy? You may have to move to another city or state in order to find a job that suits you. But what's so horrible about that? I moved from California, to Minnesota, to Tennessee in order to further my career and wait for the perfect job opportunity back in California.

The other issue is that many community pharmacists continue to limit themselves to looking for another job in a community pharmacy. However, there are different jobs for pharmacists out there. Even office-based jobs that have regular hours and good working conditions.

There is a whole huge world of pharmacy out there. Take advantage of it.

 

[BMBiology]

Yes, students are going to tell you they can't find work! Next time ask them if they are guarantee 40 hours a week. There is a big difference between working 8 hours a week vs 40 hours a week.

You don't need to be some smart economist to figure this out. Look at things around you. Companies are under paying new graduates. They are given just 24 hours a week. They need to wait for a full year to get any benefits, assuming they meet their hourly requirement. They are treated like crap. Does this sound like a healthy job market for pharmacists?

You love to tell students about this undesirable job, most are in the middle out of nowhere and often they are in a dangerous location. Let me ask you - how long do you think this type of job will still exist? How many pharmacists do they need to hire in a town with just 10,000 people? Soon these jobs will be gone, too. What will you tell your students then?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Litha]

... And everyone I have talked to says that the the job market is tightening, but there are still plenty of jobs out there. I also talked to the students at the pharmacy schools where I gave commencement addresses the past 2 years, and all of them had jobs lined up.
...

Wow, I would love to know where this is. I graduated from my state pharmacy school this year and only half my class had jobs or residencies lined up before graduation. HALF. And those with jobs are starting out as floaters or part time. This discrepancy is not from lack of trying to find jobs, mind you. My school had annual pharmacy job fairs just like everyone else, but there is just nothing available.

 

[rxdawg21]

The problem with that notion is that I it isn't necessary for me to have looked for a "real pharmacist" job lately, in order for me to know what is going on in the job market. However, I have lots of pharmacists friends all over the US, who I talk to regularly, and I also meet pharmacists at all of the pharmacy association meetings I go to, and I talk to the recruiters for the top pharmacy chains. And everyone I have talked to says that the the job market is tightening, but there are still plenty of jobs out there. I also talked to the students at the pharmacy schools where I gave commencement addresses the past 2 years, and all of them had jobs lined up.

People seem to be getting the issue of being able to get a job, mixed up with the desire to get any job I want, anywhere I want. That's not the norm in any other industry, so why are people expecting that to be the norm in pharmacy? You may have to move to another city or state in order to find a job that suits you. But what's so horrible about that? I moved from California, to Minnesota, to Tennessee in order to further my career and wait for the perfect job opportunity back in California.

The other issue is that many community pharmacists continue to limit themselves to looking for another job in a community pharmacy. However, there are different jobs for pharmacists out there. Even office-based jobs that have regular hours and good working conditions.

There is a whole huge world of pharmacy out there. Take advantage of it.

Where to start...the job market is tightening, that would be the correct word 5 years ago, it's clearly tight now. There are not plenty of jobs out there, there are jobs, mainly for experienced pharmacists or the better interns for a company. Then the rest of the jobs are in undesirable areas. Some people have family ties and simply can't pick up and move across country, I think a professional program that requires a doctorate in health care being able to find a job in your state is a reasonable expectation.

Getting a job anywhere you want is not the norm in any other industry. It is pretty much the norm in healthcare due to the demand everywhere for it. Currently schools took the bait for the shortage and now pump out pharmacists, and the pharmacy market is awful compared to other high end medical professions. This is a problem, we aren't a normal "industry" we are highly skilled labor that gets awful hours and very few holidays.

Community pharmacists continue to limit themselves....well recently with this awful job market transitioning to hospital or LTC (which isn't the best working conditions either) isn't easy. 2/3 of the workforce is retail, so that's the majority of the market and the reason its the main focus and most realistic for job openings.

Your responses show your limited knowledge of the marketplace, of course California has plenty of jobs in undesirable areas, that has been discussed in other threads, it is a rarity, the Midwest is also rather good for the a job market, so maybe that's where you are getting your information.

 

[Dalteparin]

Although you care about your patients, you feel that the lousy working conditions make it difficulty to express that caring.

However, there are challenges in nearly every career field. It is easy to bring up the reasons why you can't do something, but it is more difficult, though not impossible, to continue to do what is right in spite of the challenges.

I agree that a great many fields have it worse than we do. But don't you see that working conditions such as the ones I described are dangerous for both us and our patients? Doesn't it occur to you that pharmacists are more likely to make serious, possibly deadly mistakes when they're tired or hypoglycemic? You claim to care about patients, but your organization is the biggest cheerleader of companies that make pharmacists work under conditions where they are more likely to harm a patient.

(And for the record, my employer is not like that, thank {higher power of your choice}! I don't work retail and I'm grateful for that every day.)

As for your question related to my job seeking history, the last time I looked for a pharmacist job was three years ago when I got this job as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. But I know that isn't the type of pharmacist job you are talking about. You mean a "real pharmacist" job. You think by having me answer that question it will prove that I am out of touch with what is going on out there in the "real pharmacist" job market.

Yes, and thank you for proving my point for me! You keep touting all the opportunities out there for new grads, but "dean of pharmacy school" is not one of them. Jobs like that only come along when somebody retires or a new school opens, and they aren't among the emerging clinical roles you and APhA keep telling us are out there. You've mentioned before that you're in the office for 60-70 hours a week, so I find it unlikely that you're working as a pharmacist on top of that.

The problem with that notion is that I it isn't necessary for me to have looked for a "real pharmacist" job lately, in order for me to know what is going on in the job market.

Perhaps not, but there's no substitute for firsthand experience. So, since you didn't really answer my question, I'm going to ask again: when was the last time you looked for a job as a practicing pharmacist? And a followup: how long has it been since you worked retail?

The other issue is that many community pharmacists continue to limit themselves to looking for another job in a community pharmacy.

Oh good grief. It seems like every week I see another post on this board from a community pharmacist who's miserable and wants to know how they can escape to mail-order or LTC or hospital or anything else. It isn't that they don't want to get out of retail, it's that other options aren't available or that employers won't take a chance on a retail pharmacist in a clinical role. (And vice-versa - a few years ago, I finished residency in a saturated market, and I applied at retail out of desperation... only to be told there were no openings in the district.)

 

[PAtoPharm]

....

Honestly, I'm a bit shocked to see that some of the higher-ups in the APhA have such a selective (falsified?) view of what's going on in retail pharmacy, as well as in regards to the sheer lack of clinical jobs out there. It also seems like they don't recognize what's actually going on in the job market. Makes me wish I had done NP, and might look into it...

 

[PAtoPharm]

@Dalteparin so you think pharmacy is an all-around bad choice too?

 

[PharmDBro2017]

@Dalteparin so you think pharmacy is an all-around bad choice too?

At this point in time, I think the large majority of SDN would say it is an awful choice.

 

[Dalteparin]

@Dalteparin so you think pharmacy is an all-around bad choice too?

I genuinely enjoy what I do, but the job market is abysmal and the people who are supposed to be on our side are working against us. So no, I cannot in good conscience encourage anybody to go to pharmacy school right now.

 

[PAtoPharm]

I genuinely enjoy what I do, but the job market is abysmal and the people who are supposed to be on our side are working against us. So no, I cannot in good conscience encourage anybody to go to pharmacy school right now.

The second part of your statement is what blows my mind, as it seems like the APhA is not only refusing to acknowledge there is an oversupply, but they're also refusing to do it anything about it aside from advise pharmacists to "think outside the box" and come up with an entrepreneurial way to make money. What really gets me is that they're not even making passive statements about doing anything to improve the state of the job market, and the pharmacists & students who express concern about it are admonished for not worrying about the right things. WTF? The NP/CRNA lobby is notorious for having an "in-the-field" perspective of lobbying for changes that directly improve the professional lives of their constituents on the workforce/career level, so why can't pharmacy have the same thing?

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

According to this AFL-CIO fact sheet: http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publi...s-and-pharmacy-technicians-facts-and-figures/ there are about 287,000 pharmacists in the US, and 60% of them, or ~172,000 work retail. So, if we assume that everybody in APhA is a retail pharmacist, about 17% of retail pharmacists are in APhA. The same report says that ~20% of the pharmacists in the US work hospital, so there are ~60,000 hospital pharmacists in the US. According to their website, ASHP has 40,000 members - so roughly 2/3rds of the hospital pharmacists in the US are members of ASHP.

I encourage APhA to really think hard and ask themselves why these numbers are the way they are and what they should do about them.

Great point. But believe me, APhA continues to focus on bringing in more members. But there is a huge difference between APhA and ASHP. ASHP is an association that is specifically for hospital or institutional pharmacists. Whereas APhA is the umbrella association for all pharmacist. Because we have to represent all pharmacists, we dont have the luxury of being able to cater to just one type of pharmacist. Our market is not just community pharmacists, but all pharmacists, so the percentage of all pharmacists we have as members in very low. This is because most pharmacists belong to the specialty association, like ASHP, ACCP, or AMCP because those associations can have all of their resources go to addressing the needs of one type of pharmacist. But because APhA has to represent all pharm

I don't think there's a single person here who does not care about patients. But it's awfully difficult to show them that when you've been standing on your feet getting screamed at about copays for 10 hours or didn't get a break and your "lunch" was a bag of Cheetos and an energy drink (which you ate standing up and verifying prescriptions).

Also, in case you missed it from my earlier post: How long has it been since you looked for a pharmacist job? This is the third time I've asked and you still have not responded. I will continue to ask until you respond.

Although you feel pharmacists care about their patients, you feel it is tough to show they care given the difficult working working conditions in community pharmacies. I agree that the working conditions make it difficult, however, there are a lot of pharmacists out there dealing with the same working conditions who still show their patients they care. In fact, showing that you care about your patients may be one of the few ways you can get enjoyment from your job.

As for the job search issue, I last looked for a pharmacist job 3 years ago when I got my current job as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. But I know that is not what you are referring to. You were talking about a "real pharmacist" job. I also didn't respond because I knew you were attempting to make a point that I'm out of touch with the current job market, and I didn't feel like getting into helping you understand your flawed logic.

Your logic is flawed because you equate actually having to look for a job recently, with actual knowledge about the difficulties of finding a pharmacist job recently.

But when you say it is difficult to find a job for pharmacists, it is necessary to define what you mean by difficult. Do you mean there are no jobs in your local area, no jobs within 100 miles, no jobs in the state, or no jobs in the entire United States.

If you are saying it is difficult for every pharmacist to find the type of job they want, in the exact city they want, then I would say yes, it would be very difficult to find a job. But I don't think that is the case.

Of the people you know who are out of work, are you really saying they have searched for jobs in other parts of the state they live in and even in other states and they were not able to find a job? If so, then either I am really out of touch with the job market, or they don't do well on their interview.

I can tell you that pharmacies are able to be a lot more selective than they used to be. They no longer have to hire a pharmacist just because they have a pulse and a license. If an applicant demonstrates a poor attitude, or lack of respect, there is no reason to put up with that any longer.

If you are saying the job market is so tight that it is impossible to even get an interview for a job anywhere, then I would be really suspicious of such a statement.

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Wow, I would love to know where this is. I graduated from my state pharmacy school this year and only half my class had jobs or residencies lined up before graduation. HALF. And those with jobs are starting out as floaters or part time. This discrepancy is not from lack of trying to find jobs, mind you. My school had annual pharmacy job fairs just like everyone else, but there is just nothing available.

What state are you from?

 

[ChapmanPharmacy]

Honestly, I'm a bit shocked to see that some of the higher-ups in the APhA have such a selective (falsified?) view of what's going on in retail pharmacy, as well as in regards to the sheer lack of clinical jobs out there. It also seems like they don't recognize what's actually going on in the job market. Makes me wish I had done NP, and might look into it...

I'm all for being showed the error of my ways. So far I have only heard antidotal evidence, that I have responded to with different antidotal evidence.

Send me a link for a research study that shows there are thousands of pharmacists out of work, or even one that shows it is impossible to find a job. I'm not being pejorative. I'd be welcome to see such a study.

I talk to the pharmacists recruiters from all the major chains, and they have told me the market is tight, but they still have jobs available.

And the question I would have to ask is, why would the chains continue to send recruiters to pharmacy schools if there weren't any jobs left?

So if I am out of touch, that means the pharmacy recruiters are out of touch as well.

 

[BenJammin]

I wish more pharmacy school deans had the same perspective. If they did pharmacists would have more recognized value in the health care system. "Patients don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." That was a quote from one of my professors at the University of Minnesota. I have been using that quote in convocation and graduation speeches since then, and you would be amazed at how many heads are nodding. People already have the perception of pharmacists that they are just merchants who only care about selling stuff. If the public doesn't believe we care about them, they are unlikely to care about us, our wages, or our working conditions.

I will be thanking my lucky stars tonight that you were never an administrator at my university when I was in pharmacy school. Patients are not going to advocate for pharmacists to have provider status and a bigger role in their health care if we "show them how much we care" and taking a 50% paycut is not going to do the job either.

Isn't it strange that pharmacists want to be viewed as health care professional, yet some feel that it isn't important to show they care about the patients we serve.

Speak for yourself. I show my patients I care about them every day. Don't come onto this forum and try to tell me that I'm not doing my job to your satisfaction so I need to take a pay cut for the benefit of the lie that is provider status. You wouldn't last a week at my alma mater with some of the responses you're sharing with us.

 

[Lexington2012]

That $50k/yr federal financial aid won't last forever, milk those suckers dry!!!

My school said the max for federal aid was $37k per year. Your school allows for $50k? Are you including Grad Plus in that amount?

 

[croquemonsieur]

@ChapmanPharmacy
Submit your credentials for verification or it didn't happen.

"I'm all for being showed the error of my ways. So far I have only heard antidotal evidence, that I have responded to with different antidotal evidence."

...reading your posts makes my eyes bleed.

 

[steveysmith54]

I'm all for being showed the error of my ways. So far I have only heard antidotal evidence, that I have responded to with different antidotal evidence.

Send me a link for a research study that shows there are thousands of pharmacists out of work, or even one that shows it is impossible to find a job. I'm not being pejorative. I'd be welcome to see such a study.

I talk to the pharmacists recruiters from all the major chains, and they have told me the market is tight, but they still have jobs available.

And the question I would have to ask is, why would the chains continue to send recruiters to pharmacy schools if there weren't any jobs left?

So if I am out of touch, that means the pharmacy recruiters are out of touch as well.

The evidence is as follows:
1. The new BLS report states that the pharmacy job growth is projected to be slower than average compared to other professions. Projected to be less than 3 percent over the next 10 years .
http://www.bls.gov/ooh/healthcare/pharmacists.htm

2. Pharmacy Time magazine published that the demand for pharmacists plunged to all time low in the last 10 years.

3. Drugtopics magazine states that number of grads outnumber job openings.
http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...t-should-be-done-about-oversupply-pharmacists

You stated that the notion for a need of 100,000 pharmacist is based on "handful" of pharmacists informing you that they were able to find jobs doing MTM and chronic disease state management. Whose opinion sounds more anecdotal? I am glad that at least some are getting those jobs bc we might finally see what the aftermath of 1,000 Rite Aid closures will look like.

It's pretty obvious that this guy only cares about the well being of pharmacy schools and himself. He is here to market Chapman and as a result deceive the public about the demand for pharmacists.

 

[ldiot]

Our school attempted this during our p3 year, and I know a majority of the class would say it was a disaster. What a waste of time. Any student would be much better off reading a textbook for 2hrs rather than listening to their idiot class mates have a discussion for 2hrs.

Just another way that the teacher doesn't actually have to teach... just get paid to show up and stand there while students discuss something they don't know anything about (because they haven't been taught it yet).

Both flipped learning and traditional lecture are a waste of time. Listen to your idiot classmates ask stupid questions vs watch someone read slides word for word. I just skip class altogether and study the powerpoints and score in the top 10%. Sure... there are times when referring to a lecture video are helpful if the professor has to explain a difficult concept but for me personally it isn't worth spending 20+ hours sitting in class a week to hear 30 minutes of valueable teaching when it is recorded anyways.

 

[rxdawg21]

The second part of your statement is what blows my mind, as it seems like the APhA is not only refusing to acknowledge there is an oversupply, but they're also refusing to do it anything about it aside from advise pharmacists to "think outside the box" and come up with an entrepreneurial way to make money. What really gets me is that they're not even making passive statements about doing anything to improve the state of the job market, and the pharmacists & students who express concern about it are admonished for not worrying about the right things. WTF? The NP/CRNA lobby is notorious for having an "in-the-field" perspective of lobbying for changes that directly improve the professional lives of their constituents on the workforce/career level, so why can't pharmacy have the same thing?

This is what you need to get from this thread, our organizations do not have our back.

Great point. But believe me, APhA continues to focus on bringing in more members. But there is a huge difference between APhA and ASHP. ASHP is an association that is specifically for hospital or institutional pharmacists. Whereas APhA is the umbrella association for all pharmacist. Because we have to represent all pharmacists, we dont have the luxury of being able to cater to just one type of pharmacist. Our market is not just community pharmacists, but all pharmacists, so the percentage of all pharmacists we have as members in very low. This is because most pharmacists belong to the specialty association, like ASHP, ACCP, or AMCP because those associations can have all of their resources go to addressing the needs of one type of pharmacist. But because APhA has to represent all pharm

This man literally gives the biggest bs of an excuse for why the APhA is not striving for change in the community pharmacist workplace. It's a known fact that well over 50% of the work force is community pharmacist, therefore the organization representing all of pharmacy should have a vested interest in seeing that the large magnitude of its workforce is treated fairly. Instead, when called out about those things, he brushes it off, stating that he can't just focus on community pharmacy but all pharmacy. It's clear by their policies they aren't focusing on community pharmacy at all, but clinical pharmacists and expanding the clinical abilities of pharmacists, something that currently would represent a small part of the workforce, and that small part is already treated extremely well for the most part.

He then continues to drive home a point of how low the membership is for APhA from community pharmacists (the lifeblood of pharmacy at this point), well has he ever stopped to consider why. Why would a community pharmacist support an organization that is clearly in bed with the corporations that treat them so badly, when lately has APhA stood up for the community pharmacists awful working conditions and factory like settings under the guise of caring about patients. If you believe CVS and Wags cares about their patients you are a fool, their actions show what they care about, profit. They won't get pharmacists to join until they show pharmacists they are worth joining. With leaders like Chapman pharmacy, I fear that day will never come, just pathetic.

 

[kwakster928]

I think a professional program that requires a doctorate in health care being able to find a job in your state is a reasonable expectation.

There is no requirement for any school or, any program or profession for that matter, should given some form of guarantee that you will be able to find a job at a certain location.

If you think this is the case, you are delusional. While I agree with the tightening pharmacist market fueled by greed, it is up to You to find the job, not the school's. Only thing the school provides for you is the knowledge and the skills required to practice the profession. Nothing more!

 

[BMBiology]

The APhA can't talk about job saturation because it is run by people in academia and is sponsor by the major chains. Saturation talk would kill pharmacy school enrollment.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile app

 

[Dalteparin]

Although you feel pharmacists care about their patients, you feel it is tough to show they care given the difficult working working conditions in community pharmacies. I agree that the working conditions make it difficult, however, there are a lot of pharmacists out there dealing with the same working conditions who still show their patients they care. In fact, showing that you care about your patients may be one of the few ways you can get enjoyment from your job.

I've said this already, but my post appears to have gotten lost in the shuffle. Pharmacists, like any humans, are more likely to make a mistake when they are tired or haven't had enough to eat. Our mistakes can cause serious harm or even death. Doesn't that worry you at all? Shouldn't the organization that's a voice for all pharmacists be speaking up about the huge potential for patient harm included with the working conditions of many retail pharmacists? Shouldn't this be your top priority? As far as I can tell, it's not even on your radar. Instead, APhA is the biggest cheerleader for companies that create these dangerous working conditions.

(Side note: I don't work retail and I'm grateful for that every day.)

As for the job search issue, I last looked for a pharmacist job 3 years ago when I got my current job as Associate Dean of Student Affairs. But I know that is not what you are referring to. You were talking about a "real pharmacist" job. I also didn't respond because I knew you were attempting to make a point that I'm out of touch with the current job market, and I didn't feel like getting into helping you understand your flawed logic.

Your logic is flawed because you equate actually having to look for a job recently, with actual knowledge about the difficulties of finding a pharmacist job recently.

I responded to this above, but I'll say it again: You keep touting the availability of emerging clinical roles and jobs for new grads. "Dean of pharmacy school" is neither. It's not a job that any new grad is qualified for, and since you've told us that you spend 60-70 hours a week in the office, I doubt you're working in a clinical setting on top of that. If you are not taking care of patients in any capacity, you are not practicing as a pharmacist. I mean you no disrespect; just stating the facts. (My spouse says I sometimes remind them of Joe Friday.)

Repeating myself yet again: there is no substitute for firsthand knowledge. Yes, if you have not had to look for a job in the last decade, you're going to be out of touch. It's no different than my retired parents telling me to print my resume on nice paper or cold-call employers and ask if they're hiring. While their advice is well-intentioned, job hunting has changed and that's not how the application process works anymore... but they wouldn't know since they haven't been job hunting since the '90s.

So, I ask you again: how long has it been since you looked for a pharmacist job? And a followup: how long has it been since you worked retail?

Of the people you know who are out of work, are you really saying they have searched for jobs in other parts of the state they live in and even in other states and they were not able to find a job? If so, then either I am really out of touch with the job market, or they don't do well on their interview.

I can tell you that pharmacies are able to be a lot more selective than they used to be. They no longer have to hire a pharmacist just because they have a pulse and a license. If an applicant demonstrates a poor attitude, or lack of respect, there is no reason to put up with that any longer.

Of the recently graduated students I know, roughly a quarter of their class is unemployed, and yes, several of them told me that the chains had no full-time openings in anywhere in the state. I very much doubt all of them and half of @Litha's classmates are rude and disrespectful to interviewers. If anything, you're being a little rude by stereotyping everyone who's unemployed as having a bad attitude.

Besides, not everybody has the ability to pick up and move. During the time I was unemployed, my spouse worked in a niche field. Jobs in that field simply don't exist outside of certain cities, and my spouse needed to keep their job so that we could have health insurance. Plus, I didn't think it was fair to ask my spouse to torpedo their career (which they enjoy and work hard at) for the sake of mine.

I'm all for being showed the error of my ways. So far I have only heard antidotal evidence, that I have responded to with different antidotal evidence.

One final nitpick: anecdotal evidence.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

Thanks for the information. At this point, do you know what the bill's legislative status is? (e.g., when the next vote is expected to be held, by when will it be known whether the legislation is going to pass or not, etc.)

Oh my sweet AAtoPharmtoReek. Don't you know that only 4% of bills ever get passed into law. You should have known that from high school civics. Here's a general flow of the life and death cycle of this provider status bill.

1. APhA lobbyist gives money to congressman
   
2. Congressman introduces pharmacist provider status bill to congress
   
3. Bill dies in committee because no one cares about it
   
4. At least the congressman 'tried', so he/she gets money from APhA next year
5. Repeat from step 1

If the bill ever gets out of committee, it will have to survive both chambers (debates, votes), re-negotiations between house and senate versions of the bill, and be signed into law by the president.
If this LB-dude from Trashman University believes it will get passed, then he's forgotten about OTC+(pharmacist-prescribing privileges) from way back in 2012. Not only did it die horrifically, the AMA came out in full force to destroy it.

Just google: OTC+

 

[kwakster928]

Oh my sweet AAtoPharmtoReek. Don't you know that only 4% of bills ever get passed into law. You should have known that from high school civics. Here's a general flow of the life and death cycle of this provider status bill.

1. APhA lobbyist gives money to congressman
   
2. Congressman introduces pharmacist provider status bill to congress
   
3. Bill dies in committee because no one cares about it
   
4. At least the congressman 'tried', so he/she gets money from APhA next year
5. Repeat from step 1

If the bill ever gets out of committee, it will have to survive both chambers (debates, votes), re-negotiations between house and senate versions of the bill, and be signed into law by the president.
If this LB-dude from Trashman University believes it will get passed, then he's forgotten about OTC+(pharmacist-prescribing privileges) from way back in 2012. Not only did it die horrifically, the AMA came out in full force to destroy it.

Just google: OTC+

Insert between 2 - 3

Opposing lobby does the same thing, and the congressman gets more $$$. No wonder people are fed up with politics. Case in point D.T.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

I know that you guys find this hard to believe, but I predict that in 10 years or so, there will be close to 400,000 PharmD graduates (most without gainful employment).

FTFY

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

The APhA can't talk about job saturation because it is run by people in academia and is sponsor by the major chains. Saturation talk would kill pharmacy school enrollment.

Nah, they'll just enroll people with subpar intelligence, DUI's and criminal records. (Plenty of those in the pre-pharmacy forums of SDN and Reddit). Who needs the cream of the crop if you can have the haul of the trash.

 

[Pharmd = Phake Doctor]

As for academic pharmacists who work in a school run clinic, they are doing that to provide a service to patients who don't have access to health care. So yes, you could say they are volunteering, but since that is noble work, I don't see how one could complain about them spending time to care for patients in need.

Wouldn't these patients be better served by doctors. Just saying. I could probably run a subpar/mediocre clinic too if I was funded by student loan money.

 

[rxdawg21]

There is no requirement for any school or, any program or profession for that matter, should given some form of guarantee that you will be able to find a job at a certain location.

If you think this is the case, you are delusional. While I agree with the tightening pharmacist market fueled by greed, it is up to You to find the job, not the school's. Only thing the school provides for you is the knowledge and the skills required to practice the profession. Nothing more!

I never once said anything for any school or program to have some form of guarantee to get a job at a certain location. I was responding to Chapman's post about the fact pharmacists want to be able to find a job in a certain city or state and are unwilling to leave the state. I would find it very hard to believe that doctors, nurse practitioners, and similar healthcare professionals would simply be okay with a market that forced them to move to different states just to find a job. I don't think it's unreasonable that when people look at pharmacy they expect (or have expected) to be able to stay within their home state when you factor in the type of job you have, the demand for said job as far as there is one in every town and multiple in bigger towns/cities, the amount of education and cost of education. That is not the case anymore and it should be clear to most people, and to simply throw aside peoples frustrations with how much the market has changed by saying it's your fault you won't move etc. is ridiculous in my eyes. Anyone going into pharmacy now or in the last few years has no excuse in my eyes, the writing is on the wall.

Just want to clarify I never said anything about schools should guarantee it, just a reasonable expectation of someone looking into the career and has been one until recently. I feel that the APhA should be fighting for working conditions like California has fought and the nursing lobby has fought. Unfortunately they don't care and come up with lame excuses and reasons for not caring all in the name of patient care....which is directly affected by the working conditions.

 

[kwakster928]

I don't think it's unreasonable that when people look at pharmacy they expect (or have expected) to be able to stay within their home state when you factor in the type of job you have, the demand for said job as far as there is one in every town and multiple in bigger towns/cities, the amount of education and cost of education. That is not the case anymore and it should be clear to most people, and to simply throw aside peoples frustrations with how much the market has changed by saying it's your fault you won't move etc. is ridiculous in my eyes. Anyone going into pharmacy now or in the last few years has no excuse in my eyes, the writing is on the wall.

While I agree with your frustration, I think we are still way apart on our opinions. I will say it again. Only thing thing pharmacy students can expect from their school is adequate education to sit on the boards for a pharmacy license. Anything more than that, it is a cherry on top of a scoop of ice cream. Why do I think this?

Because, I believe, you have to make an educated choice about the profession based on market demand, prospective of employment and expected salary. Now, if the pharmacy schools says any of those things "Yes you can expect to have a job around here upon graduation. or Yes you will make $50 per hour after you graduate" to lure students into their schools, then maybe I can see students get upset by false promises. But I will still blame the students.

For example:

Do you think it is reasonable expectation for graduating pharmacy students from 3 area Philadelphia pharmacy schools (over 300 students) to have, be able to land a job in the Philadelphia region?

 

[kwakster928]

Just want to clarify I never said anything about schools should guarantee it, just a reasonable expectation of someone looking into the career and has been one until recently. I feel that the APhA should be fighting for working conditions like California has fought and the nursing lobby has fought. Unfortunately they don't care and come up with lame excuses and reasons for not caring all in the name of patient care....which is directly affected by the working conditions.

Now this I agree wholeheartedly. Our professional representation by APhA and ASHP are indeed a joke.

 

[rxdawg21]

While I agree with your frustration, I think we are still way apart on our opinions. I will say it again. Only thing thing pharmacy students can expect from their school is adequate education to sit on the boards for a pharmacy license. Anything more than that, it is a cherry on top of a scoop of ice cream. Why do I think this?

Because, I believe, you have to make an educated choice about the profession based on market demand, prospective of employment and expected salary. Now, if the pharmacy schools says any of those things "Yes you can expect to have a job around here upon graduation. or Yes you will make $50 per hour after you graduate" to lure students into their schools, then maybe I can see students get upset by false promises. But I will still blame the students.

For example:

Do you think it is reasonable expectation for graduating pharmacy students from 3 area Philadelphia pharmacy schools (over 300 students) to have, be able to land a job in the Philadelphia region?

I think I said this, but if I did not I apologize. I agree that with current market conditions its clear that most people are not going to get jobs in any desirable location. Do I think a person that goes to school in Philadelphia should be able to find a job in Pennsylvania the state, I think so. I don't think that is realistic any more tho. I agree with you it's not the schools job, it is our job as a community of pharmacist (so I guess the organizations and regulatory body) to try to protect their workforce which is where I see the failure. All my responses are to the supposed APHA president not the dean of the pharmacy school (although they are one in the same), I think that may be what you are missing.

I agree that if you go to pharmacy school now expecting a job wherever you want or to make 6 figures I have no sympathy for you. The part that frustrates me is the higher-ups refusing to acknowledge the situation and using the excuse that other careers are just like this one as a reason to not try to protect your workforce and curb the schools, which I realize is not something that can happen (curbing school growth).

 

[gwarm01]

I agree that if you go to pharmacy school now expecting a job wherever you want or to make 6 figures I have no sympathy for you. The part that frustrates me is the higher-ups refusing to acknowledge the situation and using the excuse that other careers are just like this one as a reason to not try to protect your workforce and curb the schools, which I realize is not something that can happen (curbing school growth).

I agree with this sentiment. People choosing to go into pharmacy now should know what they are walking into. It's not that we are just bitter when we tell potential pre-pharmers to steer clear, or when we talk about diminishing opportunities, dropping pay, and poor work conditions. We are living through it and we are seeing it, and we want you to know the truth. Just take our own PAtoPharm(toReek), who came here seeking answers after leaving a different program. We gave a very frank view of the field, and yes, we may have made some jokes along the way, but sometimes brutal honesty is what you really need. Now they are considering other paths, and regardless of where they choose to go, at least they are able to make that decision with a clearer view of the true state of this profession.

It just sucks for people that entered pharmacy school 5-10 years ago when things still seemed alright, and the negative opinions really were just static in the data. These people (myself included) had very, very different expectations because the reality was different when we got our start. Ah well, you gotta do something.

 

[PAtoPharm]

Oh my sweet AAtoPharmtoReek. Don't you know that only 4% of bills ever get passed into law. You should have known that from high school civics. Here's a general flow of the life and death cycle of this provider status bill.

1. APhA lobbyist gives money to congressman
   
2. Congressman introduces pharmacist provider status bill to congress
   
3. Bill dies in committee because no one cares about it
   
4. At least the congressman 'tried', so he/she gets money from APhA next year
5. Repeat from step 1

If the bill ever gets out of committee, it will have to survive both chambers (debates, votes), re-negotiations between house and senate versions of the bill, and be signed into law by the president.
If this LB-dude from Trashman University believes it will get passed, then he's forgotten about OTC+(pharmacist-prescribing privileges) from way back in 2012. Not only did it die horrifically, the AMA came out in full force to destroy it.

Just google: OTC+

This is what I want to know.... since it has been confirmed that the government is not currently planning on voting on the provider status legislation, what is the APhA doing in regards to efforts to getting a vote scheduled? Is everything stagnant at this point until thousands of working pharmacists write-in to the government?

 

[rxdawg21]

It just sucks for people that entered pharmacy school 5-10 years ago when things still seemed alright, and the negative opinions really were just static in the data. These people (myself included) had very, very different expectations because the reality was different when we got our start. Ah well, you gotta do something.

This is exactly how I feel. My wife and I both have good non retail jobs (tho not the best location) and I am very thankful for that however going to pharmacy school starting in 09 I realized by the end of my second year I wish I did something else (for me pt or finance would be fields I would actually enjoy). What was more frustrating financial aid that was expected by myself (HOPE) changed at the last moment and cost me a whole year of expected funding which was about 20k in additional debt plus interest. The changes in amount of debt plus the huge shift in job market (large cities in Georgia were giving out signing bonuses in 2009) really was a tough pill to swallow in school when you already had debt and time commitment to pharmacy to back out at that point

 

[PAtoPharm]

This is exactly how I feel. My wife and I both have good non retail jobs (tho not the best location) and I am very thankful for that however going to pharmacy school starting in 09 I realized by the end of my second year I wish I did something else (for me pt or finance would be fields I would actually enjoy). What was more frustrating financial aid that was expected by myself (HOPE) changed at the last moment and cost me a whole year of expected funding which was about 20k in additional debt plus interest. The changes in amount of debt plus the huge shift in job market (large cities in Georgia were giving out signing bonuses in 2009) really was a tough pill to swallow in school when you already had debt and time commitment to pharmacy to back out at that point

Did the HOPE scholarship cover your pharmacy tuition? I had the HOPE for my entire bachelor's degree, but by the time I reached my last few semesters, I was having to pay around $800 per semester.

 

[Deja]

[QUOTE="

Although you feel pharmacists care about their patients, you feel it is tough to show they care given the difficult working working conditions in community pharmacies. I agree that the working conditions make it difficult, however, there are a lot of pharmacists out there dealing with the same working conditions who still show their patients they care. In fact, showing that you care about your patients may be one of the few ways you can get enjoyment from your job.
[/QUOTE]

hahahhaa omg despite what everyone has being saying, you seems to not get it; pharmacist do care about the patient but we are saying it's hard to show that and dangerous for the patient when working condition sucks!

how can I make it more clear... imagine a football player with a concussion and went to his coach to say he can't play the next game but only to be told that he should play through the pain and show that he cared about his teammate and winning, and that is one of the few ways he can actually get enjoyment playing the game

do you see how out of touch you are?


Also as for MTMs, I can't speak for other institutions, but do you know how much we are getting reimbursed for these MTMs at retail level? Hint not very much

 

[BenJammin]

Although you feel pharmacists care about their patients, you feel it is tough to show they care given the difficult working working conditions in community pharmacies. I agree that the working conditions make it difficult, however, there are a lot of pharmacists out there dealing with the same working conditions who still show their patients they care. In fact, showing that you care about your patients may be one of the few ways you can get enjoyment from your job.


hahahhaa omg despite what everyone has being saying, you seems to not get it; pharmacist do care about the patient but we are saying it's hard to show that and dangerous for the patient when working condition sucks!

how can I make it more clear... imagine a football player with a concussion and went to his coach to say he can't play the next game but only to be told that he should play through the pain and show that he cared about his teammate and winning, and that is one of the few ways he can actually get enjoyment playing the game

do you see how out of touch you are?


Also as for MTMs, I can't speak for other institutions, but do you know how much we are getting reimbursed for these MTMs at retail level? Hint not very much

Our non-CMR cases are either $12 or $10.