Application process to RADIOLOGY( Please ADVISE )

[emenjivar]

I am an IMG who is very interested in radiology. I just have finished with the ECFMG certification process.
I am starting to review the programs,but i have a few doubts about the application process ( PLease correct me ).
It seems in FREIDA that:

1. there are some programs that offer preliminary positions ( Does this means that if you apply to the PGY2 they will automatically give you the PGY 1 position).

2, the other programs does not offer a preliminary position ( Does This means that you have to do first a transitional or a preliminary program and then during your PGY1 year you have to apply for a PGY 2 ( Radiology) or you have to match as a PGY 2 and as a PGY 1 in different programs at the same time)

For radiology is enogh that your USMLE scores are 1 standard deviation above the mean?

Should i apply to how many programs?

As a back up plan, should i apply to a transitional year or preliminary medicine?

Sorry for the lengthy post but i would be more than grateful for any feedback from not only rads residents but anyone with experience in the match process. if its not too much to ask, i was wondering what the contingency plans were for those who recently matched into rads. what other programs did you all apply for assuming if you had not gotten rads?

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[Jim Picotte]

You should read the post below and read what Dr. Cuts has to say about this subject.

http://www.studentdoctor.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=67150

There are pretty much 2 different ways programs are set up. Categorical (You apply for radiology and they give you the prelim/transitional year for a total of 5 years). Then the advanced position (majority) you apply for PGY-2 Radiology this year and at the same time find yourself a prelim/transitional year on your own. So it's like applying for 2 programs at the same time, one starts July 1, 2004 and radiology starts July 1, 2005.

The hard truth, depending on where your from...the important question is have you done rotations in the U.S. If you've done your 3rd and 4th year rotations on U.S. soil then you have a glimmer of hope. If you have not and are not currently a radiologist in your home country, have strong connections with someone or have done an incredible amount of research (we're talking studies that people quote) then you're pretty much screwed but miracles do happen.

For your Step 1 score, 1 SD above the mean is a good score for a U.S. grad, but you really need to shine a lot higher than that. You'll need to rock Step II and I think cuts explained what he did to get a spot more eloquiently than I could so read the post farther down in this forum and I believe cuts applied to every program in the U.S. so be prepared to spend some cash.

I had no contingiency plans myself and if I didn't match would have had to scramble into some other field but I think maybe pathology would have been my backup. Other people may be able to help you more here.

Good luck.

 

[ApacheIndian]

Hey Jim... good to see you... just a couple more months till you enter the land of peace and happiness of Radiology residency... hang in there ...

Emenjivar,

I think the post Jim was referring to was my general post for IMGs entitled "Maximize the Match." It's on the International forums and I bumped it for you there. If you have any specific queries I'd be happy to try and address them here. Good luck to you...

 

[Molly Maquire]

Cuts,

I your post, you mentioned that you landed several interviews by being "assertive." Can you elaborate? Did you call up programs where you were initially turned down for an interview and talk your way in?

 

[Santiago]

hi everybody.
I would like to add a few of my observations to the posts by Jim and Dr Cuts

firstly there's a three tier system in getting residency spots which comes more into the fore when applying to the more competetive residencies..the one at the topmost consisting of amg's,the second heap is that of IMG's but who are americans and finally we have the img's....other then many intangibles which only img's can appreciate. I can name just two factors which make a huge diffrence in the competetiveness of img's and american img's..they are the dreaded four letter word VISA(know athat u have already said goodbye to half of the good rads programmes if u keep squibbling about J1 and H1) and the ROTATION issue...we all know about the visa and anyone who is a bonafide img(with all due respects dr cuts-there's a subtle difference between img's and american img's) can tell u its well nigh impossible to schedule our rotations in radiology that too in american hospitals... its damn well tough!!
So our chances are even tougher then the venerable Dr Cuts himself..(having said that-its a tremendous acheivement dr cuts..u will make an enormous contri to any progamme u go-no butt kissing..I truly feel so goin by ure previous posts)
Also, about the scores thingy..I kept in touch with four five guys.all img's...who were trying for radiology this match..all had scores in the 235-255(95+) range both steps..and the overwhelming feedback was ....scores were helpful only till the INTERVIEW stage..period..the guy who had the highest scores 250 plus in both got 9/80(applied/got interviews)..and the fella who had the lowest among these basically 235 plus had 6/100 odd...and post interview ..the scores were no help at all..beleive me, however high u score there will be scores of people and amg's at that who will have equivalent scores and more..the quality of applicants was astounding this year..there's no way a PD is gonna take an img over amg with equiavalent scores..
What's the point of saying all this u may ask..it's certainly not to doscourage u..but to bring ure attention to the fact that the MOST important thing is US clinical experience,US LOR's....nothing else even comes close to it..u may have one interview and still kill it with great lor's unlike only with great scores where u may have any number of interviews but wont get the all important residency spot.
Also pretty important are interview skills....be as prepared as u can ..we img's real suck at this..but agaon this is not as important as lor's.
SOP yes..but give enuf time to it and i am sure poeple can come up with great sop's.
Step 2 scores bottom of the heap-try to get similar percentiles in step 2 also...what goes against is def inconsistent scores...
BTW..the only guy who matched in rads out of the five had 235 plus scores along with great lor's..i dunno about his interview skills...but he had the least number of interviews...and acc to him....without american lor's ..just forget landing a rads spot..
regarding everything else-dr cuts has hit the nail exactly on the head..apply early,apply everywhere..yada yada yada..
this is not to discourage anyone but to remind them that there are other variables besides scores..
I am waiting for feedback from jim and dr cuts regarding this..

cheers

 

[Jim Picotte]

That sounds about right to me. In the current environment, it will be extremely difficult to land a radiology spot for an IMG. The visa issue is obvious as a program just doesn't have to worry if you're a citizen or green card holder. Why even mess with the visa issue if you have hundreds of qualified AMG's wanting to land a spot as well. You have to also remember that programs and hospitals have a big interest in retaining some of their residents as future employees as well as making sure some people stay in the state which is why you'll have an easier time (for the most part) getting interviews and matching at a program within your geographic region. All these things play a factor. The thing about scores is that after a certain point (meaning if you're able to get above the mean on the tests) that means you're capable of learning the material. After that it comes down motivation and how much work you're willing to put in. Most students/residents put way too much emphasis on USMLE scores. They honestly don't mean anything after a certain point and are mainly a screening tool for programs. The scores are used as a screening tool just because the programs are just getting too many applications so it's easier to just pick everyone with scores about 230 or 240 and interview them. So after a point, I agree that scores just don't matter as you've proved you're capable of being a good test taker and aquiring the knowledge necessary to pass your boards. Programs only use them because we have to pass the radiology boards and a higher score means you know how to take a test and are likely to be able to pass the specialty boards.

I guess if I was a non American IMG, I would apply to as many programs as possible and hope for the best. I think I would just skip some programs to save a little money. I mean you're just not going to get interviews at a lot of places. Look for the small community programs that aren't very desirable for most AMG's. A lot of these programs are excellent but are just located in a city or place where a lot of people just don't want to live. Of the Michigan programs, I'd probably only apply to Providence and St. Joe's Oakland as you're probably not going to be interviewed at any of the others. Radiology is a small world and having the LOR from the right person or knowing the right radiologist makes an incredible difference. The process is not fair at all just like life so just do the best you can with the tools and experience you have. Good luck.

 

[ApacheIndian]

Originally posted by Molly Maquire
Cuts,

Did you call up programs where you were initially turned down for an interview and talk your way in?

No I never did that. Although I did reply to all rejection e-mails I got saying something like "Thanks for considering my application and should any more interview slots become available in the future please do reconsider inviting me for an interview."

I applied on OD and I started calling and e-mailing any programs that I hadn't heard from by mid-Nov. I mostly spoke to PCs/PSs and expressed my sincere interest to them and asked them to relay this to the PDs.

I think hussle pays. The key is to be assertive, not aggressive.

Good luck !

 

[ApacheIndian]

Pikeytun's right about Visa issues. I didn't consider them initially but I'm sure that that is another important factor/impediment for FMGs. I suppose if I was in those shoes and I was determined to match into a competitive field and couldn't do so the first time around, I would probably do one of two things:

1) take cat-IM at a hospital with a very IMG-friendly Rads dept.--preferably one that you already interviewed well at--and try to later make a horizontal segue into Rads there (a "handshake match")

2) do a year of Rads research at a hospital with a very IMG-friendly Rads dept.--preferably one that you already interviewed well at--and try to get a "handshake match" later

Of course these are both gambles. The cold hard truth is that despite these efforts, one may never match into Rads. So the safe bet would be to have a good back-up field in mind too. It's rough out there. Good luck!

 

[Santiago]

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[The Pill Counter]

Regarding the visa issue, from what I've learned so far, if the applicant is content with a J-1 (non-convertible to a green card, must go home after res. for min. 2 years or go live in Hillbilly country for 3 years) then there is no reason a program should have a problem with you since it is sponsored by ECFMG and all work is done on their side.
However, if you're after an H-1 (easily convertible to green card) then you're asking programs to take on the bureaucratic nightmare and lawyer fees for sponsoring you. From my understanding, most programs that will do this will not advertise the fact, and the ones that do make it publicly known are usually very non-competitive IM programs in the big cities (read: NYC) that need to do anything to get a warm body.
Evidently, you'd be extremely hard pressed to find any Radiology program that would openly state it sponsors H-1 visas.

 

[bzmd]

Cuts,

I wonder if your assertive attempts to get in touch with nonresponding programs resulted in any itnerviews.

Thanks,
Alex

 

[ApacheIndian]

Originally posted by bzmd
Cuts,

I wonder if your assertive attempts to get in touch with nonresponding programs resulted in any itnerviews.

Thanks,
Alex

Yup. Sure did. I'm certain that two of my interview invites resulted entirely from my actions, and I suspect that one more may have as well. Yes I felt like a loser at times doing this, but I do believe in the following sage words:

"If you want to improve, be prepared to look foolish and stupid."

- Epictetus

 

[sgufmg]

I'd apply to St. Joes-Oakland in Michigan which has numerous IMGs in their program. If possible, I'd try to do an observership or research with the program directors. Emphasize in your essay your interest in Michigan