Applied to UQ, MCAT=38O, need some advice

[Pollux]

My stats:

Undergrad institution: University of British Columbia, Canada
Undergrad GPA: Overall 3.62, Sciences 3.21, Last 60 credits 3.98
MCAT: Aug 2005 P14 V10 B14 O
Citizenship: Taiwan

Applied to University of Queensland, Australia

First of all, I understand that my situation is quite different from most other people's. However, I would really appreciate it if anybody can offer me some advice on this!

Firstly, I am not a permanent resident of Canada or US. I know this really limits my chances of studying medicine in North America. I believe only 4 Canadian med schools admit international applicants. (McGill, McMasters, Toronto, and Memorial, with a combined quota of around 25, and I believe most of the places go to US students.) Similarly, I think the numbers of international matriculants in US med schools last year was also quite dismal, 94 and an acceptance rate of 14%, and I'd guess most of those accepted are Canadians.

Secondly, I did not (more like could not) apply to any US medical schools this year because of visa problems. I don't have a US visitor's visa now, and to apply for one outside my home country would be very difficult. I can't go back to Taiwan now, because I would not be allowed to leave the country before I complete the 2 year mandatory military service. Moreover, my student authorization in Canada has just expired, and I am still waiting for my work permit to arrive. Without a valid status in Canada, It would be nearly impossible for me to obtain a US visa while applying from Canada. I obviously need the visa so I can go to the states for interviews.

Lastly, and probably the worst mistake I made while applying to UQ is that I submitted my application too late in the cycle! It was in late August when I learned that Australian schools are an option for me. After researching the schools for a few days, I submitted my application in mid September. I know the deadline for international applicants was August 19, but the ACER Admission guide also said that late applications *might* be accepted beyond this deadline. I applied through Oztrekk, and their website said UQ would accept applications until September 30. I would certainly hope they are absolutely right about this... Obviously, I got a little nervous a few days ago when quite a few people on this forum said they had been offered admissions to UQ.

Okay... and the MCAT. My score was posted last night, and it was a mixed blessing. I was certainly pleasantly surprised, since I expected more like a 32M. But now the problem is: *should* I get accepted by UQ, would I be better off declining the offer and wait for one more year so I can apply to US schools? (By then, the visa problem will likely be solved.) This poses a dilemma for me. I really like the school, and I've heard that many current students are happy with their decision to study there; also, I've been to Brisbane, and I totally love the city and the country. On the other hand, I know that if I choose to apply to US schools, my chances would be pretty good. I am also aware that the downsides of studying in Australia include having to prepare for the USMLE and arranging for US clinical rotations myself. I have talked with my parents about my current plan, and they are very supportive of my decision to study in Australia. (The annoying thing is that I have a few relatives in the States who seem to think that US schools are the only way to go. Sigh. I certainly hope this is not the way the US medical community perceives foreign schools and foreign doctors.)

Anyway, thank you very much for reading this far. I know I had a rambling style of writing, which is probably why I only got an O in the Writing Sample. Thanks again for bearing with me, and I would really love to hear some comments from all of you!

Cheers,

J

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[pitman]

What a freakin' dilemma.

I think you have a good handle on the pros and cons. However note that UQ will have a handful of formal affiliations with n american schools within the next year, and more coming done the pipeline, so it won't be *required* for you to organize your own rotations back there when it comes time.

I'm not sure what sort of advice to give here -- I chose to come here, but I personally am not all that concerned about the USMLE studying (and will likely do FP or IM), am american and don't have visa issues. I also don't give a darn about idiots thinking non-US is crap. They do exist, but there are also those who find it fascinating and an asset (esp older docs who generally highly respect Aussie docs). Either way, it's certainly a conversation piece! One friend's entire family (xmas dinner) was on my case presumptuously asking "so what's the real reason you're going to Australia?", but that just required my explaining my life's goals and excellent scores (though not as good as yours, except I whipped you on WS, hehe), research, volunteerism, blah blah blah, and they promptly shut the f* up (and I was able to make a half dozen more ign'ant Americans rethink their prejudices ) Then there's the doc friends of the family (docs are in the family), particularly the old-timers, who romanticize my choice or even get nostalgic about their own adventures travelling down under back in the '50s or '60s or whenever.

Anyhow, the few Aussie grads I've spoken to about it, and I believe kimberli cox here on SDN, have said that they haven't experienced much if any negativity when they returned. A few blank stares though, since most Americans barely know where Australia is.

OTOH you certainly do have quite a good chance at a US school with your stellar stats (and most schools don't care about the WS score so long as it's not an extreme outlier). We have a couple studs with similar scores in each of the last couple of years, but most n americans here will have scored mid 20's to low 30's. Not sure if that even matters to you, but it is what it is.

It would certainly be easier for you to stay for res if you graduated from a n american school. We had a Canadian this year who got into UBC and left to go back to Vancouver after a semester and started over. So in the end it would have cost him an extra AUD$18k + travel expenses to save a year of nail-biting. Something to keep in mind.

-pitman

 

[pitman]

Forgot to mention -- I think they're doing two iterations for acceptance this year, the bulk of acceptances in the first. While better to have completed everything for the first, with your stats you're prob not disadvantaged in any major way. Can't be sure, but that's my feeling on it. But call admissions if you have any concerns, they'll be straight up front with you (we're currently 14 hours ahead of ET, in case you've forgotten).

 

[Pollux]

Thanks for the reply pitman!

Good to hear that UQ is establishing more affliations with n american schools. I guess they're finally keeping up with Flinders.

The UBC case you mentioned is interesting, but I guess it probably won't happen to me. It's either I get into UQ this year, or reapply for Sep 2007 admission to n american schools.

Just out of curiosity, what was your reason for choosing to study medicine in Australia, if you don't mind me asking? I've read quite a lot of your previous posts, and I got the impression that you would easily get in one of the n american schools.

By the way, thanks a lot for sharing your experience at UQ in your previous posts. Your certainly expressed genuine enthusiasm and optimism about your experience there, and that was very encouraging. I also appreciated learning about the pros and cons of going to Australia. It helped me immensely when I was trying to decide where to go and which school to apply to.

Of course, I'll admit that it's also quite fun to watch you refute those troll's empty claims. It certainly has great educational value.

 

[Pollux]

Forgot to mention -- I think they're doing two iterations for acceptance this year, the bulk of acceptances in the first. While better to have completed everything for the first, with your stats you're prob not disadvantaged in any major way. Can't be sure, but that's my feeling on it. But call admissions if you have any concerns, they'll be straight up front with you (we're currently 14 hours ahead of ET, in case you've forgotten).

I certainly hope so... I just submitted my score using THx, and hopefully I'll hear a response from them pretty soon. In fact, I am still waiting to get an interview invitation.
I was actually surprised to learn that the majority of offers came out in early October. On their website, they said it would be mid-November. But I guess those who have already received offers probably had their MCAT score when they applied, so fair enough.

 

[pitman]

Big question, but i'll give the short answer.

A lot to do with my romantic side, and my interest in 3rd world med.

I had no interest in the US except for maybe Harvard, Stanford or Yale (exceptions for a number of reasons), but my stats weren't that good. Carib has the stigma problem still unfortunately, but more imporantly, it's geared to ppl who want to just get back asap with no concern to life in the meantime, with not much as far as amenities and extracurricular opportunities. I also factored in the possibility of continuing biomed research or adding an MPH, and not much opportunity there for that. This left Israel and UK that interested me, though in retrospect Qatar might have been on my list, too. I was relentlessly dogged by family not to go to Israel as a Yank, though if I had none I might be there. Then when figuring out b/w the last two, I suddenly realized that UK would be a backup b.c. of the application seasons and I knew I'd get in somewhere here, and since the two were otherwise close, not having to wait an extra year drew me here.

Pluses that put oz on the list to begin with were new part of the world for me, exotic S. Pacific/SE Asia vicinity, reputation among docs I respected. UQ in particular due to weather, Brunei rotations, well-organized rural opportunities, and first year elective. Coming here for interviews sealed the deal when everyone in Brissie was really friendly and the school admin seemed to listen to students (since proven a correct assessment IMO).

 

[pitman]

Call them next week!

 

[Pollux]

Cool. That is pretty much the same reason I chose oz over UK, Irish, and Carib schools. I know a lot people recommend Carib over oz if one wants to go back to the states to practice, but that is simply not the only road for me, although it is definitely a good option. Let's say I want to work in Hong Kong or Taiwan 8 years from now, the medical community there might actually be more familiar with an MBBS from an oz med school than an MD from the states. I might be wrong though...

I choose UQ because I love the weather in Brisbane, especially having lived in Vancouver for 6 years now: it is now pouring rain outside. Oh and Brisbane is close to home for me, only an 8 hour flight. UQ also has quite a good reputation back home, and not to mention, a beautiful campus!

Thanks for the advice - I will definitely call them next Monday.

 

[Horowitz]

Hi Pollux! I think you're right in saying that the people in HK and Taiwan are more familiar with MBBS than the MD from the States. I'm from HK! In HK, the MD degree would be taken as a doctoral research degree akin to a PhD that's only pursued after 5 years of community medical service as a MBBS degree holder. The MD degree as a primary medical qualification, as is the case in the US, is a novel idea to most people in HK and is in fact not recognised as a doctoral degree per se. I think this has been mentioned before on this forum. But you know, schools like Harvard and Yale are a different story. A Harvard degree is generally considered golden.

I wish you luck in your UQ application!

 

[Horowitz]

Personally, I'd prefer British medical schools over American medical schools, especially University of London, Oxford and Cambridge. However, the living costs in UK scare me!

 

[Horowitz]

I'll admit that it's also quite fun to watch you refute those troll's empty claims. It certainly has great educational value.

concurred.

After spending the last few hours reading through this forum, I think I have a good idea of who the trolls are. Shall I name them?

Pitman, thanks for your help in answering many questions that people have, I've personally benefited from a few of your responses in the past. Don't bother with the trolls and waste your time on them. I think all thinking individuals can tell that you're being helpful here while the trolls are, well, just trolls.

 

[pitman]

cheers

 

[Pollux]

Hi Horowitz! Thanks for the clarification. I think Cziffra mentioned how MD is perceived differently in HK, but it's always good to have another person from HK confirm it.

I see that you're heading to U Melbourne to start the 6-year medical program. Congratulations! I've heard many times how difficult it is to get admitted to undergrad-entry medicine in Australia, especially a top-notch school like U Melbourne. Good for you!

I actually thought about applying to HKU's medical program, but then again, I am not fluent in Cantonese. I know classes are taught in English, but I suppose most day-to-day conversation among students is in Cantonese? A friend of mine at UBC is applying to HKU this year. She's from HK though.

 

[sedination]

I certainly hope so... I just submitted my score using THx, and hopefully I'll hear a response from them pretty soon. In fact, I am still waiting to get an interview invitation.
I was actually surprised to learn that the majority of offers came out in early October. On their website, they said it would be mid-November. But I guess those who have already received offers probably had their MCAT score when they applied, so fair enough.

Hi Pollux,

I really don't want to say this but I think the interviews for international students may already be over. This is an email message I received on September 4th:

Dear (name removed),

Firstly my apologies for the delay in contacting you. Thank you for making yourself available at the agreed time to partake in your interview with the School of Medicine. We understand that it is not easy to be interviewed via telephone but we feel that the process is working successfully.

We are currently holding interviews for International Students through until September 30. We will be contacting students from the week commencing 10 October via email to let you know if you have been successful. We are still finalising a timeline with regard to your official offer which has to come from our International Education Directorate Office of the University.

It is important at this part of the process that we have your correct contact details. We have discovered with some files that the mailing address we have is different to where the applicant is actually residing. Time may be of the essence when you receive an offer so it is a good idea if you send me your current residential address for confirmation.

Please make sure that the email address that we have for you is also current and will be active at the time of notification. I am happy to register a second email address and send all communications to both addresses.

I am attaching a information booklet with relevant details about the MBBS program and requirements. Please take some time to read it.

If you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact me. I will be back in touch as soon as possible.

Kind regards,
Julia

You see in her email she says international student interviews were to be finished by September 30th. Now this was sent to me on September 4th so they may have changed their minds and extended the interview period but obviously I myself wouldn't know. Furthermore, I remember reading on the forums back in September about people receiving interviews from UQ even though they hadn't taken the MCAT yet so UQ seemed to have already interviewed some people who had no MCAT score at the time. The best thing to do would be to contact Julia Dickenson directly at [email protected] . Let's hope you hear some good news.

 

[Pollux]

Hi Sedination,

First of all, congratulations on being accepted! I certainly hope I will be able to join you there, or at least have the option to.

Actually I was kinda prepared to hear this, since I knew I got my application in very late and heard that people had already been interviewed in September. The only sign showing that they had received my application is the $66 bucks that showed up on my credit card bill. I seriously thought that they would at least give me a chance when they had already charged me for the application fee. But then again, it's ACER who processed the fee.

Thank you very much for this piece of information, though. I will contact the school today.

By the way, I see that you're from Vancouver too. Are you a fellow UBC graduate?

 

[Horowitz]

Hi Pollux! Given your stats, you'll be in med school before long. Good luck!

 

[Pollux]

Thanks again pitman and sedination for the advice of contacting the school! I wrote an email to the admissions officer (Julia Dickenson) yesterday, and she told me that they are still conducting interviews for international students who applied late. Sure enough, I got another email from her today saying that I've been scheduled for a phone interview next Tuesday.

I've been really impressed by the efficiency of UQ so far! I forwarded my MCAT score using THx the night I saw my score, but the status has been "pending" for a few days. I checked again today at 6PM PST, and it was still pending. At 9PM, I got the email about the interview offer. Incredulous, I thought they might have again decided to interview someone without seeing the MCAT score. After receiving the email, I checked the THx again, and to my surprise, the status has magically become "complete".

That is definitely some very high efficiency (verifying my score and emailing me within 3 hours of receiving the score from ACER) or an amazing coincidence... I'd rather believe it's the former explanation.

 

[Pollux]

Hi Pollux! Given your stats, you'll be in med school before long. Good luck!

Thanks a lot Horowitz! I wish you all the best at UMelb!

 

[Horowitz]

Hi Horowitz! Thanks for the clarification. I think Cziffra mentioned how MD is perceived differently in HK, but it's always good to have another person from HK confirm it.

I see that you're heading to U Melbourne to start the 6-year medical program. Congratulations! I've heard many times how difficult it is to get admitted to undergrad-entry medicine in Australia, especially a top-notch school like U Melbourne. Good for you!

I actually thought about applying to HKU's medical program, but then again, I am not fluent in Cantonese. I know classes are taught in English, but I suppose most day-to-day conversation among students is in Cantonese? A friend of mine at UBC is applying to HKU this year. She's from HK though.

I hope you eventually settle in a med school that's suitable for your career objectives. Seriously, many people here lack the international exposure that we have (having lived in both the East and the West) and they are not in a position to comment on "foreign" schools. (I don't want to speak like an authority here as I'm not; just trying to talk to you as a friend )They don't understand our situation and their views are extremely biased (I'm mainly referring to the views of the trolls) as they are Americans who would like to eventually work in the US. We are far more flexible in this regard. It'd be excellent if you can seek impartial information from practising doctors in Taiwan or elsewhere. This forum is losing its value particularly because of the several famous trolls.

Talking about HKU, did you know that the billionaire Li Ka Shing has donated HKD 1 billion to HKU, with most of it going to the Faculty of Medicine? On top of that, the HK government will donate a further 1 billion making up a total of 2 billion! Li has also recently donated huge sum of money to Cambridge (UK), UC Berkeley and Toronto to set up a global network for information (mostly medical) exchange between these institutions!

p.s. the guy in yellow is me while the guy in red is jabroni from valuemd.

 

[Horowitz]

You don't need to be fluent in Cantonese to study at HKU. In this year's MBBS graduating class, there's a Western girl who started the course without knowing the language; she did fine. I heard that she's now totally fluent in Cantonese, isn't she amazing? Just make sure you know it well enough for the clinical part of the course. English is still used heavily among the students from overseas who are doing medicine at HKU. These students include students/graduates of Harvard, Cambridge, Stanford, Sydney, Toronto, NUS, London, Brown...you name it.

I thought of applying to HKU as well but picked Melbourne in the end. Applying to HKU as a non-local is ultra difficult: several hundred to 1000 applicants from all over the world each year for 10+ spots! The good thing is, you pay local fees even as a non-local student. That's nice! Interestingly, orthopaedic surgery and liver transplantation at HKU are among the best in the world. Stanford professors went all the way to HKU to learn surgical techniques (orthopaedic) from HKU professors.

 

[pitman]

This forum is losing its value particularly because of the several famous trolls.

I personally think SDN does a much better job of outting and booting the trolls than valuemd.

 

[kumquat]

Congrats Pollux on getting an interview! Good luck and I hope to see you in Brisbane!

 

[Bronte]

38 is a frickin amazing score- wait and apply to the US!

 

[Edison]

38 is a frickin amazing score- wait and apply to the US!

Well, true, if and only if you want to work in the US or canada in the end. It's not like the US schools are inherently better or something.

 

[Edison]

The OP isn't an american; neither am I. You guys from the US won't understand us. It's not like we have to "return" to the US eventually.

 

[pitman]

I'm American, and I chose to apply only in Oz and to come here even though it's likely I'll return to the US for res. I don't tell people they *ought* to come here, but there are a lot of reasons for ppl to choose one place or another. It's rarely as simple as "wait because your scores are high". Yeah, it's tougher to return, but that's just one factor to consider.

 

[Pollux]

I got in!
I have decided to go to UQ this January. As many people have pointed out, returning to the US is not a priority for me. SO... Australia it is.