Applied to Vet School. Got In. Didn't Go. Med School Now?! Help, Please.

[snowdrift]

Alright, everyone.

I've reached what I'm calling my quarter life crisis because I'm stuck in a weird place.

I'm going to be brutally honest here because I need brutally honest feedback.

I was accepted to a few vet schools a few years back coming out of undergrad. Strangely enough, when I was getting those acceptances, I was hit with sudden fear of one thing: Student debt.

I've had more than a handful of veterinarians tell me to be very clear with myself about the student debt I will be accruing when attending a veterinary program. I thought I was ready, but something made me doubt myself so I delayed attending. I turned down all of my offers. It was a weird place to be in (sort of depressing, to be quite honest), but the debt scares the living crap out of me.

Fast forward and I'm living and working on the west coast at a veterinary school. I work directly with clinicians, residents, interns, students, and fellow clinicians alike. I see what it's like, I'm getting a first-hand perspective of their lives without actually being there.

And still, the debt scares me. Also, as a technician, I make next to nothing. I cannot see myself doing this the rest of my life. As much as the work is rewarding, being a technician is incredibly limiting. I want to be able to learn more about my patients, make a diagnosis, research problems and solutions. I hate being stuck behind this wall that no CVT or VTS degree can bring me beyond. I feel like I'm missing out everyday as I watch the clinicians and interns and residents round and discuss medicine that I absolutely want to know more about.

So, I began to brainstorm things that would allow me to stay in medicine but maybe not be overwhelmed with debt for the rest of my life.

My brain led me down the path of Physician Assistant or Medical Doctor.

So here I am, thinking, hey, I could definitely see myself as a medical doctor, right? Right?

And to be honest, I'm stuck.

I don't know what to do.

I really just need some insight, I think.

To give you a general overview of my issues: DEBT. I'm afraid vet school will leave me scrambling the rest of my life (especially since I'm interested in farm animal medicine) in debt and I know I could see myself pursing something in human medicine (I'm an athlete outside of my animal world, and I love the idea of doing something in the world of surgery or orthopedics).

Please! Help! Be brutally honest with me. I need it.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

Umm... you do know that med school can leave you 300K in debt yes?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ciestar]

Unfortunately with my undergrad loans included, I am looking at around 400k when I graduate.

Problem with these programs: you (for the most part) need to spend money to make money. Yes, compensation is better as a physician once you’re an attending, but the debt is very real.

If you want PA, start working on the thousands of clinical hours they want right now. This is the cheapest option.

 

[snowdrift]

Umm... you do know that med school can leave you 300K in debt yes?

Of course. Med and vet school costs are comparable. That being said, the likelihood of paying off the debt is much more reasonable as an MD, as I see it. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Umm... you do know that med school can leave you 300K in debt yes?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Right but attending salaries make it pretty easy to pay those off. Even starting salaries for attendings are quite high. The average vet salary is only $100k, with starting salaries down into the 50s. Big difference.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Right but attending salaries make it pretty easy to pay those off. Even starting salaries for attendings are quite high. The average vet salary is only $100k, with starting salaries down into the 50s. Big difference.

I'd say that's a slightly high average that must include boarded specialists. I don't know of many general practitioners earning more than 100k unless they live in a high COL area/big city, do a ton of emergency, or are clinic owners. I'd peg it more around 80-90 as an average. Starting salaries 65-75k unless you're rural equine or production medicine, then it can be as low as 55-65k.

Boarded specialists 100-150k depending on academia vs large referral hospital, but then you have to deal with 3-4 years of getting paid absymally (25-28k as an intern and then 30-32k as a resident).

For a debt of at least 150k for instate tuition (easily 200-300+k OOS).....the math ain't too good.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I'd say that's a slightly high average that must include boarded specialists. I don't know of many general practitioners earning more than 100k unless they live in a high COL area/big city, do a ton of emergency, or are clinic owners. I'd peg it more around 80-90 as an average. Starting salaries 65-75k unless you're rural equine or production medicine, then it can be as low as 55-65k.

Boarded specialists 100-150k depending on academia vs large referral hospital, but then you have to deal with 3-4 years of getting paid absymally (25-28k as an intern and then 30-32k as a resident).

For a debt of at least 150k for instate tuition (easily 200-300+k OOS).....the math ain't too good.

I got the number from a website that I think includes all types of vets. It seemed high to me too, given that the number I’ve seen for most pp vetties seems to be ~80k like you said.

But the point is the same. It’s a lot of debt for a low salary given the level of education. Like you said. The math ain’t too good.

 

[ChiDr]

So many options now. Seems like money is a big pull for you because you are not making a ton. NP, PA, nurse anesthetist, are all solid options with less debt and you will make great money, deal with patients regularly, diagnose, and treat.

Figure out what you really want and why you want it. Answer the why because there are many jobs where you can make good money.

 

[Goro]

Alright, everyone.

I've reached what I'm calling my quarter life crisis because I'm stuck in a weird place.

I'm going to be brutally honest here because I need brutally honest feedback.

I was accepted to a few vet schools a few years back coming out of undergrad. Strangely enough, when I was getting those acceptances, I was hit with sudden fear of one thing: Student debt.

I've had more than a handful of veterinarians tell me to be very clear with myself about the student debt I will be accruing when attending a veterinary program. I thought I was ready, but something made me doubt myself so I delayed attending. I turned down all of my offers. It was a weird place to be in (sort of depressing, to be quite honest), but the debt scares the living crap out of me.

Fast forward and I'm living and working on the west coast at a veterinary school. I work directly with clinicians, residents, interns, students, and fellow clinicians alike. I see what it's like, I'm getting a first-hand perspective of their lives without actually being there.

And still, the debt scares me. Also, as a technician, I make next to nothing. I cannot see myself doing this the rest of my life. As much as the work is rewarding, being a technician is incredibly limiting. I want to be able to learn more about my patients, make a diagnosis, research problems and solutions. I hate being stuck behind this wall that no CVT or VTS degree can bring me beyond. I feel like I'm missing out everyday as I watch the clinicians and interns and residents round and discuss medicine that I absolutely want to know more about.

So, I began to brainstorm things that would allow me to stay in medicine but maybe not be overwhelmed with debt for the rest of my life.

My brain led me down the path of Physician's Assistant or Medical Doctor.

So here I am, thinking, hey, I could definitely see myself as a medical doctor, right? Right?

And to be honest, I'm stuck.

I don't know what to do.

I really just need some insight, I think.

To give you a general overview of my issues: DEBT. I'm afraid vet school will leave me scrambling the rest of my life (especially since I'm interested in farm animal medicine) in debt and I know I could see myself pursing something in human medicine (I'm an athlete outside of my animal world, and I love the idea of doing something in the world of surgery or orthopedics).

Please! Help! Be brutally honest with me. I need it.

Wanting to run to Medicine because you are afraid of the debt from veterinary medicine is one of the lousiest reasons to become a doctor.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I honestly don't understand why someone would want to be a vet. I love animals, but to start off making 50,000 with the hopes of maybe making 100,000? I'll volunteer my time to help animals while making enough money to pay off the loans. Seems like a miserable life full of debt.

 

[grebes4lyfe]

I honestly don't understand why someone would want to be a vet. I love animals, but to start off making 50,000 with the hopes of maybe making 100,000? I'll volunteer my time to help animals while making enough money to pay off the loans. Seems like a miserable life full of debt.

Ok that’s cool. Thanks for your opinion and for writing off an entire profession.
If it’s not for you, that’s fine. But saying you don’t understand why ANYONE would want to do it? Really?

And you wouldn’t be able to volunteer to help animals without somehow being under the supervision of a vet (maybe not directly, but whatever org you’d be working with would almost certainly have a vet on staff).

Your comment was completely unnecessary and inconsiderate.

 

[RNtoMD87]

While excited to be a doctor, I wouldn't do it for 50,000 a year either. There is more to life than JUST your profession. Even if it is an important part, as it is to me. It would be different if school wasn't so expensive. Just seems ridiculous to me. How long does it take to get out from under vet school debt on 50k a year? I mean after taxes and expenses how much can you even put toward your loans?

It isn't about the profession itself. I find it more fascinating than human medicine honestly. That they can manage care for so many different species. That is amazing, but I just can't see subjecting oneself to that debt.

And why would being under the supervision of a vet be a problem? As long as I didn't have massive debt over my head, that wouldn't bother me one bit.

 

[grebes4lyfe]

While excited to be a doctor, I wouldn't do it for 50,000 a year either. There is more to life than JUST your profession. Even if it is an important part, as it is to me. It would be different if school wasn't so expensive. Just seems ridiculous to me. How long does it take to get out from under vet school debt on 50k a year? I mean after taxes and expenses how much can you even put toward your loans?

It isn't about the profession itself. I find it more fascinating than human medicine honestly. That they can manage care for so many different species. That is amazing, but I just can't see subjecting oneself to that debt.

And why would being under the supervision of a vet be a problem? As long as I didn't have massive debt over my head, that wouldn't bother me one bit.

Even if it’s not how you intended, the implication of your post is that nobody in their right mind should pursue vet school because of financial prospects. That people should pursue more lucrative professions and then volunteer to help animals. But if that was everyone’s outlook, it wouldn’t be feasible because there would be a shortage of vets to actually oversee your volunteer work.

Vets are a necessary and undervalued profession, and comments like yours, however unintentional they may be, don’t help.

So again, it’s not for you. That’s fine. It’s not for a lot of people. But stop making comments that discount an entire profession that you have no experience in.

 

[RNtoMD87]

It's called an opinion. People tend to have them. Also if less people chose to be vets, there would be greater demand and they would be paid more.

If people are willing to be deep in debt then I say go for it, it just definitely isn't worth it for me. It isn't about being lucrative. Hell I don't consider MD to be lucrative once you consider student loans, insurance, taxes/wealth redistribution etc. I pursue the path for the knowledge. Honestly optometry or nursing seems more "lucrative" to me. But I expect a means to pay off my debt and live a life free of stressing over having enough money. Just coming out of residency as an MD/DO will be financially stressful enough I'm sure. I haven't ever owed a single dollar so far, and I don't know how people go through life having that over their heads.

Maybe if they could somehow make the education reasonably priced (even though all education in America is ridiculously expensive due to government loans but that's a separate discussion.

 

[grebes4lyfe]

Also if less people chose to be vets, there would be greater demand and they would be paid more.

This comment shows me just how little you understand what drives vet salaries, so it’s useless to continue this conversation.

 

[RNtoMD87]

Supply and demand, basic economics. Like all things. It's why nurses are paid well. Although there are LOADS of us, they need even more due to patient needs, so many going abroad, etc.

Everyone gets paid by how hard they are to replace. That is the sole factor. It's why NP is such a poor job choice. Anyone can get into NP school (even those with abysmal sub 3.0 GPAs and can even do it almost completely online) and therefore there are many of them coming out of school and not as large of a demand for them.

 

[grebes4lyfe]

Supply and demand, basic economics. Like all things. It's why nurses are paid well. Although there are LOADS of us, they need even more due to patient needs, so many going abroad, etc.

Everyone gets paid by how hard they are to replace. That is the sole factor. It's why NP is such a poor job choice. Anyone can get into NP school (even those with abysmal sub 3.0 GPAs and can even do it almost completely online) and therefore there are many of them coming out of school and not as large of a demand for them.

So why are rural MDs some of the most in-demand and lowest-paid doctors?

Like... also... is this the hill you really want to stay on? You are obviously well acquainted with the human medical field but not so much with vet med. And that’s fine. You’re not IN vet med. but it means that you don’t understand what motivates people to enter this field and you don’t understand the driving factors for our salaries (hint: it’s MUCH MORE complex than simple supply and demand economics. The human medical and insurance industries are in play for our salaries as well).

 

[RNtoMD87]

I'm going to say just like with student loans artificially inflating student loan prices, the government and insurance companies artificially increase healthcare costs. The rural MDs are probably not on that money train like the urban ones, where the money is being dumped.

If not for the government and insurance companies, a hospital bill would probably be within the same ballpark as animal healthcare. When my dad died, our hospital bill for less than 12 hours of care was nearly a million dollars. Ridiculous.

 

[RNtoMD87]

So why are rural MDs some of the most in-demand and lowest-paid doctors?

Like... also... is this the hill you really want to stay on? You are obviously well acquainted with the human medical field but not so much with vet med. And that’s fine. You’re not IN vet med. but it means that you don’t understand what motivates people to enter this field and you don’t understand the driving factors for our salaries (hint: it’s MUCH MORE complex than simple supply and demand economics. The human medical and insurance industries are in play for our salaries as well).

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. You're taking this as a personal attack. I respect vets very much. I own goats, cows, donkeys, and chickens (I'm a farmer) and it amazes me that they know the nuances of each species. Or even within a species. Like how you shouldn't give GSDs Ivomec due to the MDR1 gene, but other non herding dogs it's okay. FASCINATING. If I didn't feel like it was economic suicide I would've set out for vet school originally. Would definitely be easier since I own a 90 acre farm 1.5 hours from the nearest city. (Definitely going to have to consider that when choosing a medical specialty).

I simply think their financial situation is BS. If anything its sympathy for vets, not disdain. Chill. I’m expressing understanding and sympathy for OP. I would be very frustrated in that position.

Anyway here’s my coyote killers

 

[Doctor-S]

... I was hit with sudden fear of one thing: Student debt ... the student debt I will be accruing ... debt scares the living crap out of me ... I'm living and working on the west coast at a veterinary school ... And still, the debt scares me ... So, I began to brainstorm things that would allow me to stay in medicine but maybe not be overwhelmed with debt for the rest of my life ... To give you a general overview of my issues: DEBT. I'm afraid vet school will leave me scrambling the rest of my life ... in debt and I know I could see myself pursing something in human medicine ... I love the idea of doing something in the world of surgery or orthopedics.

@snowdrift ... my general thoughts:

Debt: It's often common for medical students and veterinary medicine students to express concerns about debt unless they're sufficiently fortunate to have someone else (e.g., family) paying their tuition and expenses while they're in medical or veterinary medicine school, or they have been awarded a generous scholarship, etc. Dental students worry about debt ... law students worry about debt. Professional school can be very expensive. Just saying.

However, since debt seems to be a significant issue for you, it may be helpful to conduct a cost-benefit analysis - although you will not be able to precisely predict how the future might affect your own career over time. Lots of things can change. You can do some rough math by entering different numbers on a calculator or you can speak with a financial professional (e.g., your accountant) to determine whether the projected numbers impact your decision. Maybe they will ... maybe they won't. I don't know ... it's your personal call ... and it's your life.

Veterinary Medicine: Have you shadowed veterinarians who are employed in non-academic veterinary medicine practices?

In so doing, you can ask practical questions concerning the pros-and-cons of student debt and veterinary practice, lifestyle, job satisfaction, future income, and other stuff related to the private practice of veterinary medicine (because the buck stops with you and not with the university). Make sure you ask some early-career professionals, too. Then, you can do some more thinking: are you passionate about veterinary medicine; and you cannot see yourself in any other career? If yes, then figure it out and make it happen.

Human Medicine: You said you could see yourself in human medicine and love the idea of doing something in the world of surgery or orthopedics as a physician. Like veterinary medicine, human medical school is expensive, rigorous and time-consuming. At the very minimum, you need to shadow a few physicians (primary care physician, surgeon, orthopedist) and work or volunteer in a human medicine venue (e.g., hospital, hospice, community clinic) to get a "sense" of life in the trenches as a physician. Ask questions about debt and medical practice, lifestyle, job satisfaction, future income, etc. Oh yeah ... and you'll also need to rock step 1 to be competitive for certain residencies such as orthopedics. Now, what say you? Have you decided that human medicine is the only career for you? If yes, then figure it out and make it happen.

Hope this information is useful to you ... and I wish you the very best in your (future) career!

 

[ChiDr]

Supply and demand, basic economics. Like all things. It's why nurses are paid well. Although there are LOADS of us, they need even more due to patient needs, so many going abroad, etc.

Everyone gets paid by how hard they are to replace. That is the sole factor. It's why NP is such a poor job choice. Anyone can get into NP school (even those with abysmal sub 3.0 GPAs and can even do it almost completely online) and therefore there are many of them coming out of school and not as large of a demand for them.

Respectfully, I think you need to research your stats a little bit better. There is a growing need for NPs in the US and many get paid very well. Their ROI is very good (even those with abysmal sub 3.0 GPAs).

Perhaps a quick overview of labor statistics may help.

Nurse Anesthetists, Nurse Midwives, and Nurse Practitioners : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

 

[RNtoMD87]

Respectfully, I think you need to research your stats a little bit better. There is a growing need for NPs in the US and many get paid very well. Their ROI is very good (even those with abysmal sub 3.0 GPAs).

Perhaps a quick overview of labor statistics may help.

Nurse Anesthetists, Nurse Midwives, and Nurse Practitioners : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

I know that their pay is awful. N=15 or so, but every coworker and friend I've known that went NP makes less than 85,000. Horrible pay. Plus it is much different than RN.

RN you can get fired and have a job literally within the next week because demand is so high. My friend got his NP and it took him MONTHS to find a job. Paying 75,000 a year. He made almost that anyway. Plus there are many NPs that pull floor shifts with us on top of their normal job. If there is plenty of NP demand, why do they have to work under their level? You'll never catch me pulling side shifts as an LPN or CNA.

CRNA is a different story. It is highly competitive and seems like a good career if youre into that sort of thing. Out of 13 applicants from the ICUs at my hospital, ONE got in. And these were in large all skilled, knowledgable nurses that have been practicing for at least 3 years. Midwife I have no clue on. I only have had much experience with NP. Had a friend tell me straight up- never do NP it was a huge mistake. A nurse instructor at my school told me "Congratulations on choosing to pursue medicine. I'm glad you didnt choose NP. My daughter is a pysch NP and she feels it was a mistake". My best friend is an NP and told me he only did it because he had a wife and 3 kids. Told me absolutely go medical.

I promise you that the "average" NP doesn't make 110k. Maybe 90,000. That 110,000 is probably inflated by CRNAs which make a little more than NPs from what I've seen. 90,000 is nothing for an RN to make. You pull a few extra shifts per month and you'll be making that easy. I made 115 my first year out of school.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

If the level of debt is not commensurate with the salary, as people have educated me on here... then OP I would suggest PA. They make good money.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[ChiDr]

I know that their pay is awful. N=15 or so, but every coworker and friend I've known that went NP makes less than 85,000. Horrible pay. Plus it is much different than RN.

RN you can get fired and have a job literally within the next week because demand is so high. My friend got his NP and it took him MONTHS to find a job. Paying 75,000 a year. He made almost that anyway. Plus there are many NPs that pull floor shifts with us on top of their normal job. If there is plenty of NP demand, why do they have to work under their level? You'll never catch me pulling side shifts as an LPN or CNA.

CRNA is a different story. It is highly competitive and seems like a good career if youre into that sort of thing. Out of 13 applicants from the ICUs at my hospital, ONE got in. And these were in large all skilled, knowledgable nurses that have been practicing for at least 3 years. Midwife I have no clue on. I only have had much experience with NP. Had a friend tell me straight up- never do NP it was a huge mistake. A nurse instructor at my school told me "Congratulations on choosing to pursue medicine. I'm glad you didnt choose NP. My daughter is a pysch NP and she feels it was a mistake". My best friend is an NP and told me he only did it because he had a wife and 3 kids. Told me absolutely go medical.

I promise you that the "average" NP doesn't make 110k. Maybe 90,000. That 110,000 is probably inflated by CRNAs which make a little more than NPs from what I've seen. 90,000 is nothing for an RN to make. You pull a few extra shifts per month and you'll be making that easy. I made 115 my first year out of school.

You are correct, $80K is terrible money for the school equivalent of a Masters. How entitled are we these days? Take away overtime and shift differentials and nurse pay would decrease, just a bit. I am happy you made 115 your first year with extra shifts. There are NPs out there that work clinics that make those working standard hours, without extra shifts. It's all relative depending on what you sign up for. I'm sorry you feel so harshly against these professions that were discussed in this thread. They tend to lead to great ROIs and should be considered as a path to medicine, outside of becoming a physician. Not only physicians do well in the healthcare profession.

Occupational data tends to be accurate and speaks for itself. It's also called a geographic distribution for a reason. Perhaps, your friend is in the lower 10% of the curve and has other factors that didn't serve him/her well in the market. That doesn't mean the data is incorrect. It means distribution curves serve their purpose. There are nurses working in places where they make the lower 10% as well. So your $115 would be $60 elsewhere. All the best.

Nurse Practitioners

 

[westsidestoryz]

Look into PA. My friend who just graduated from a NY PA program makes around $190k (iono if its true) right off the bat. 3 years of schooling with a 6-figure income to start with less debt than medical schools sounds like your option

 

[chemdoctor]

If the level of debt is not commensurate with the salary, as people have educated me on here... then OP I would suggest PA. They make good money.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Six figures, with only two years of training after college. Sounds great to me!

 

[precisiongraphic]

OP - talk to MDs DOs PAs NPs. Figure out pros and cons of each.

Also you might want to look into tuition-free or reduced tuition avenues such as the military and Nurse Corps loan repayment programs if the debt is the only problem. But it seems like you have to get more info before you make up your mind.

 

[RNthenDoc]

I think it’s nuts that nurses make more than animal doctors.

I don’t have anything super intelligent to add, other than OP may enjoy a career in nursing.

Nursing has allowed me to work STRAIGHT out of/during undergrad, and can build on the degree in many directions. I believe it to be the most versatile healthcare degree, and it worked out well for me.

 

[RNtoMD87]

I think it’s nuts that nurses make more than animal doctors.

I don’t have anything super intelligent to add, other than OP may enjoy a career in nursing.

Nursing has allowed me to work STRAIGHT out of/during undergrad, and can build on the degree in many directions. I believe it to be the most versatile healthcare degree, and it worked out well for me.

Exactly. This is my sole point. It just blows my mind that with a two year education, I made over double what a person with an 8 year education made. It’s ridiculous.

My whole life I knew vets didn’t make as much as doctors but I thought they started at 120k or so. The first person to tell me they started in the 50s I thought “yeah you don’t know what the f you’re talking about.”

Nursing is a GREAT field practically. Mobility, ease of finding a job, variety, money, flexibility, etc. I’m just a total nerd and feel intellectually unsatisfied with it

 

[Frazier]

Vets are bad ass. They treat different... species... from med management to surgery. FM, IM, Cards, OB, Uro, ortho, gen surg, rads, peds, derm, neuro, ID, sleep med, palliative care... all in one job.

They are similar to the old timer country docs in that sense.

Good luck finding a pain med-seeking malingering pet.

The pay is however concerning juxtaposed against the debt of vet school. Otherwise being a vet is a great profession, i have major respect for them.

This is coming from an ED doc.

 

[Stagg737]

Please! Help! Be brutally honest with me. I need it.

You need to get some solid experience working with hooman patients before you even consider med school. Idk what your experience is, but thinking about med school debt without working in the (human) medical field is pointless.

So why are rural MDs some of the most in-demand and lowest-paid doctors?

They're not? Rural physicians on average make much more than their urban counterparts, largely for supply and demand reasons (have to pay more to get docs to move out to the country). Plus rural locations typically offer higher bonuses, loan repayment programs, etc. Rural docs who don't make much do so by choice, either by opening a PP or not negotiating, as they could easily make 30-40% more than their urban counterparts if they negotiated well.

They tend to lead to great ROIs and should be considered as a path to medicine, outside of becoming a physician

There are other reasons some of the mentioned professions should not be considered as a path to medicine, but those points have been beaten to death in threads about quality of mid-level care.