Apply to 2 specialties in same institution

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radiologicaldynasty

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Hi this is a throwaway account,

Is it okay to apply to Catergorical specialties at the same institution in different programs ( ex. Surg and IM, IM and DR, IM and Anesthesia)?

The match is super competitive and wanted to maximize to have a backup at matching but am concerned this might be seen as a red flag leading to not being ranked by both programs. If already applied is there anything that can be done about it ( ex. withdrawing from one program if you got an interview at the other)? Thoughts are appreciated.

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Most departments are so insular nobody would ever know. The biggest risk IMO would be if someone saw you walking the halls on the tour or something.

People overestimate how much most care about this. It’s totally fine to apply to two specialties. People who think otherwise have theirs heads up their...
 
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this is mostly true, but I won't say that program directors who find this less than encouraging on the part of applicants, are being entirely unreasonable

the harm that a resident that resigns/transfers/is miserable can do to a program is pretty huge, so understandably they want to feel that candidates want nothing more in life than 100 hr/wk in their program, and won't spend any time staring listlessly out of the workroom window (that probably doesn't exist) fantasizing about the grass being greener anywhere except a cemetery

also, programs need to rank enough candidates that will in turn rank them high enough, to fill, for some programs just filling is an obsession

does this sound like an applicant applying to one specialty or 2? (yes, some specialties don't take a "back up" specialty choice as a sign of split loyalty (ortho, neurosurg, etc))

I mean, sorry not sorry, that's how it is
 
Hi this is a throwaway account,

Is it okay to apply to Catergorical specialties at the same institution in different programs ( ex. Surg and IM, IM and DR, IM and Anesthesia)?

The match is super competitive and wanted to maximize to have a backup at matching but am concerned this might be seen as a red flag leading to not being ranked by both programs. If already applied is there anything that can be done about it ( ex. withdrawing from one program if you got an interview at the other)? Thoughts are appreciated.
OP, this question has been addressed in other threads in what I recall was good depth, try SDN searching "applying to two specialties" in this forum perhaps

it's somewhat nuanced and there are different consideration in how you do this
 
Traditional wisdom says not to apply for two separate residencies at the same institution, because if either residency program learns that you've applied to the other one (through whatever means, including by chance), it could affect your prospects in both.

If you're applying to a back-up specialty, you likely have one that you want to go in more than the other. Focus your applications in that one as feasible.
 
Traditional wisdom says not to apply for two separate residencies at the same institution, because if either residency program learns that you've applied to the other one (through whatever means, including by chance), it could affect your prospects in both.

If you're applying to a back-up specialty, you likely have one that you want to go in more than the other. Focus your applications in that one as feasible.

So if I got an interview in both at the same place, should I withdraw from the one that is less desirable?

Edit: Would they find out regardless?
 
I believe there is a Match rule that the programs cannot ask you where else you have applied, conversely, that makes me suspect that part of the Match is that they are not to inquire and have no "official" way of finding out

that said, IMHO nothing stops idle gossip or other informal info sharing within GME offices

I've read somewhere on SDN I'm certain, anecdotes about certain PDs at some institutions informally comparing notes. I doubt that's officially allowed.

there's often pieces of papers with pictures of applicants with names being interviewed for different programs floating about

moral of the story, no, they would not necessarily find out regardless, especially if you didn't interview and withdrew, unless even at the invite stage PDs were gossiping

the chances are pretty slim, but booya above is correct wisdom
 
So if I got an interview in both at the same place, should I withdraw from the one that is less desirable?

Edit: Would they find out regardless?

They most likely won't find out if you don't interview for both (even if you were accepted for interview by two separate programs, I doubt they cross-check the lists like that).

I would strongly consider withdrawing the less desireable interview. Whether you actually do is up to you.
 
Most departments are so insular nobody would ever know. The biggest risk IMO would be if someone saw you walking the halls on the tour or something.

People overestimate how much most care about this. It’s totally fine to apply to two specialties. People who think otherwise have theirs heads up their...

I only speak for my program based on past experience. We care a lot. And while our interview day is pretty insular, if a candidate we interviewed had been spotted with an interview group for another specialty, we would probably not rank that candidate. So it's a risk. The risk is magnified if the pre-interview dinner includes
I believe there is a Match rule that the programs cannot ask you where else you have applied, conversely, that makes me suspect that part of the Match is that they are not to inquire and have no "official" way of finding out

that said, IMHO nothing stops idle gossip or other informal info sharing within GME offices

I've read somewhere on SDN I'm certain, anecdotes about certain PDs at some institutions informally comparing notes. I doubt that's officially allowed.

there's often pieces of papers with pictures of applicants with names being interviewed for different programs floating about

moral of the story, no, they would not necessarily find out regardless, especially if you didn't interview and withdrew, unless even at the invite stage PDs were gossiping

the chances are pretty slim, but booya above is correct wisdom

We found out twice by chance--both involved the resident pre-interview dinner. In one case, the applicant we had already interviewed was attending the dinner for the other specialty at a restaurant that some of our residents happened to go to that night. In the second case, the applicant had already interviewed with another specialty at our institution where the spouse of one of our residents is a resident. Spouses are invited to our dinners. Spouse of our resident recognized applicant from his specialty's dinner earlier in the season, and informed our residents at the end of the evening. In both cases, we didn't rank the applicant--though I have no idea whether the other specialty did or not.
 
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I only speak for my program based on past experience. We care a lot. And while our interview day is pretty insular, if a candidate we interviewed had been spotted with an interview group for another specialty, we would probably not rank that candidate. So it's a risk. The risk is magnified if the pre-interview dinner includes


We found out twice by chance--both involved the resident pre-interview dinner. In one case, the applicant we had already interviewed was attending the dinner for the other specialty at a restaurant that some of our residents happened to go to that night. In the second case, the applicant had already interviewed with another specialty at our institution where the spouse of one of our residents is a resident. Spouses are invited to our dinners. Spouse of our resident recognized applicant from his specialty's dinner earlier in the season, and informed our residents at the end of the evening. In both cases, we didn't rank the applicant--though I have no idea whether the other specialty did or not.

It’s a dumb reason to not rank an otherwise great applicant. There is nothing that says you can’t be equally interested in two specialties and not really have a preference for what you go into and instead use institution or location to form your list. Or to have a backup because you’d rather not soap or reapply. Nothing unethical about this at all.

But programs think about the silliest and pettiest things when ranking applicants. Seriously it shocks me that these people are adult professionals sometimes because they act like 20 year old sorority girls picking new pledges.

So yeah, play your cards close to your chest. I still think odds are low that if you’re careful nobody will find out.
 
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It’s a dumb reason to not rank an otherwise great applicant. There is nothing that says you can’t be equally interested in two specialties and not really have a preference for what you go into and instead use institution or location to form your list. Or to have a backup because you’d rather not soap or reapply. Nothing unethical about this at all.

But programs think about the silliest and pettiest things when ranking applicants. Seriously it shocks me that these people are adult professionals sometimes because they act like 20 year old sorority girls picking new pledges.

So yeah, play your cards close to your chest. I still think odds are low that if you’re careful nobody will find out.

We interview a lot of great applicants--not ranking someone who we've established isn't committed to our field doesn't seem unreasonable.
 
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We interview a lot of great applicants--not ranking someone who we've established isn't committed to our field doesn't seem unreasonable.

Well that’s the dumb part. This “committed to the field” stuff is subjective bs. As if those doing the interview have never acted in their own best interests before. This is business, not personal. But PDs and chairs get their feelings hurt over the silliest stuff. And we’ve got them expecting every resident to be like Ortho-or-kills-myself.
 
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a few things

it does not mean that the applicant may not be ranked, they might, but they might end up bottom of the list for both programs

programs are not ranking according to what is "fair" or "who is great and deserving and reasonably is applying to more than one field"

it's not sorority BS or any such thing

they need the people they are ranking at the top to rank them top too, or they risk not filling or drawing more on the bottom of their list. We don't blame students for not wanting to match to #18 on their list, why should programs also not want to match top of list? If I have 20 spots, I want candidates 1-20 not 60-80.

they are risk averse about ANY sign that makes them think they will not be ranked top

how are they supposed to mind read candidates? applying to 2 specialties can mean a lot of things, I don't know why it doesn't come across as common sense for the benefit of the program to just prioritize people who do not have split considerations on specialty choice
 
Well that’s the dumb part. This “committed to the field” stuff is subjective bs. As if those doing the interview have never acted in their own best interests before. This is business, not personal. But PDs and chairs get their feelings hurt over the silliest stuff. And we’ve got them expecting every resident to be like Ortho-or-kills-myself.
You're absolutely correct...business, never personal.

If you don't want to be in the business I'm hiring for, especially at this level, I don't want you in it either.
 
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a few things

it does not mean that the applicant may not be ranked, they might, but they might end up bottom of the list for both programs

programs are not ranking according to what is "fair" or "who is great and deserving and reasonably is applying to more than one field"

it's not sorority BS or any such thing

they need the people they are ranking at the top to rank them top too, or they risk not filling or drawing more on the bottom of their list. We don't blame students for not wanting to match to #18 on their list, why should programs also not want to match top of list? If I have 20 spots, I want candidates 1-20 not 60-80.

they are risk averse about ANY sign that makes them think they will not be ranked top

how are they supposed to mind read candidates? applying to 2 specialties can mean a lot of things, I don't know why it doesn't come across as common sense for the benefit of the program to just prioritize people who do not have split considerations on specialty choice

I am involved in residency selection and interviewing. I have personally witnessed the following:

1. A candidate knocked down because his tie was too skinny.
2. A candidate knocked down because he was too old (40s)
3. The chair throwing a public hissy fit for falling 30% down the rank list.

I stick by my sorority comment.
I am not saying they won’t knock you down if they find out you’re applying ortho and anesthesia, I’m saying they most likely won’t find out and that they it’s stupid for anyone to care (but they definitely might). And when I say most don’t care about this, I mean anyone other than the PD and chair. In real life people switch specialties, apply to backups, whatever, and it’s not like most people are going to blackball their attending peers as uncommitted doctors. Nobody gives a ——. Except PDs and chairs, which is probably why they are PDs and chairs. It’s like med school admissions when they care about all those volunteer hours you have. Means nothing about how competent you will be in practice or how trainable you are, and nobody cares ever again once you get past them.
 
Well that’s the dumb part. This “committed to the field” stuff is subjective bs. As if those doing the interview have never acted in their own best interests before. This is business, not personal. But PDs and chairs get their feelings hurt over the silliest stuff. And we’ve got them expecting every resident to be like Ortho-or-kills-myself.

Once I interview someone, if they are likely ranking another field, I just rank them anyway. If they match with me, then they obviously didn't match to Derm/whatever.

If I get a hint that an applicant is applying to two fields and IM is their backup, I will usually not interview them. I have a limited number of spots, don't want to waste one on someone who has less chance of ending up in my program.

The baloney in the post above is baloney. That's too bad.
 
I am involved in residency selection and interviewing. I have personally witnessed the following:

1. A candidate knocked down because his tie was too skinny.
2. A candidate knocked down because he was too old (40s)
3. The chair throwing a public hissy fit for falling 30% down the rank list.

I stick by my sorority comment.
I am not saying they won’t knock you down if they find out you’re applying ortho and anesthesia, I’m saying they most likely won’t find out and that they it’s stupid for anyone to care (but they definitely might). And when I say most don’t care about this, I mean anyone other than the PD and chair. In real life people switch specialties, apply to backups, whatever, and it’s not like most people are going to blackball their attending peers as uncommitted doctors. Nobody gives a ——. Except PDs and chairs, which is probably why they are PDs and chairs. It’s like med school admissions when they care about all those volunteer hours you have. Means nothing about how competent you will be in practice or how trainable you are, and nobody cares ever again once you get past them.

#2 is blatantly illegal btw. Quite literally, age above 40 is a federally protected class.
 
1. A candidate knocked down because his tie was too skinny.
2. A candidate knocked down because he was too old (40s)
3. The chair throwing a public hissy fit for falling 30% down the rank list.

And those are the reasons people will admit to publicly. Kinda makes you wonder how much unconscious bias affects hiring decisions.
 
FWIW, there are places that have small enough GME programs that they share coordinators. Probably not as big of a deal for things like IM, Peds, or Gen Surg, but for programs that have less than 5-10 residents per year, it might be a thing. In that case, the coordinator might know that you’re applying to two specialties based on just going through ERAS for the two programs they manage.
 
It is completely rational to downgrade a candidate for lack of commitment. If my specialty is your second choice, who's to say you won't jump if another opportunity comes along. This is particularly true for specialties with PGY1 years that can double as a prelim year for more desirable specialties. There's a lot of people in the middle third of the bell curve that have to get sorted somehow.
 
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