MD Apply to all of the medical schools or SMP

[keenemd]

First off, not trolling. I'm considering applying to all of the MD schools that I am eligible next year because it would be cheaper than a reputable SMP.

Assuming the SMP will cost ~30,000 (not factoring in apartment and cost of living) and the average secondary +primary cost will be about $100 each. It seems I will spend less than 13,000 on all of the medical schools.

Here are my stats 3.16 cGPA, 31MCAT. White but checked of disadvantaged because of low income (currently financially independent but grew up in rural poor area). EC's include shadowing, volunteering, leadership in a club, research (published in a paper but not first author).

I'm a reapplicant and have gotten one interview before after applying to 15 schools. What are my chances at 100 or 110?

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[Faha]

Apply to 20 DO schools and you should be accepted somewhere. The law of diminishing returns applies to medical school applications. If you do not receive an acceptance at one of your own state medical schools you are very unlikely to receive an acceptance at an OOS public schools with your stats since those schools favor their own residents. You could apply to all the private schools but even that is unrealistic since your stats are not competitive for top 20 schools. Which schools did you apply to and what is your state of residence? Where were you waitlisted?

 

[claduva94]

Please don't do this. You could still not get in and then not only did you lose thousands of dollars and hours of work but you are in no better position to reapply than you were before. Focus on improving your application first. You are a reapplicant so odds are already against you.

 

[candbgirl]

Are you applying to DO schools? If not you should consider that option. With their great retake option you would be competitive after a few retakes. Your GPA is really low for MD and you are a reapplicant so even applying to 100 MD school...

 

[keenemd]

Please don't do this. You could still not get in and then not only did you lose thousands of dollars and hours of work but you are in no better position to reapply than you were before. Focus on improving your application first. You are a reapplicant so odds are already against you.

The only thing that needs significant improvement is my GPA (possibly my writing, although most people who have proofread it had few complaints). That leaves my options to be SMP, post-bac, or apply to as many schools as possible. All of these options are gambling.

Good SMP's will likely cost me well over 30,000 which I will not be able to pay upfront and there is the chance that I do not get into medical school and am left with additional debt. Applying to all of the medical schools I'm eligible for will not even cost me half of what an SMP would. In fact, I could probably apply to all of the medical schools two years in a row and still be left with more money than I would if I did an SMP. I did get one interview last year so it's not like my application would be hopeless. Then again, it could have been a lottery ticket, but 110 tickets would be better than 15.

 

[claduva94]

The only thing that needs significant improvement is my GPA (possibly my writing, although most people who have proofread it had few complaints). That leaves my options to be SMP, post-bac, or apply to as many schools as possible. All of these options are gambling.

Good SMP's will likely cost me well over 30,000 which I will not be able to pay upfront and there is the chance that I do not get into medical school and am left with additional debt. Applying to all of the medical schools I'm eligible for will not even cost me half of what an SMP would. In fact, I could probably apply to all of the medical schools two years in a row and still be left with more money than I would if I did an SMP. I did get one interview last year so it's not like my application would be hopeless. Then again, it could have been a lottery ticket, but 110 tickets would be better than 15.

Well let me ask you this. What will you do if you don't get in this time around?

 

[Goro]

With your numbers, you'll be 0/115. Already, you're displaying a good deal of not merely naivete, but outright foolishness. Your cGPA is well below the 3.6 median for MD school matriculants, and is below the 10%ile for all them.

This process is not a random one. The odds of getting into any single med school, from Harvard to Rush, is ~2-5%. It is not additive by simply doing more applications.

If you can't afford a post-bac right now to repair your GPA, then work for a few years, save some money, and then get into a SMP. Or apply to DO schools right now, because you competitive for them.

This process also selects for people who know what they're doing.

The only thing that needs significant improvement is my GPA (possibly my writing, although most people who have proofread it had few complaints). That leaves my options to be SMP, post-bac, or apply to as many schools as possible. All of these options are gambling.

Good SMP's will likely cost me well over 30,000 which I will not be able to pay upfront and there is the chance that I do not get into medical school and am left with additional debt. Applying to all of the medical schools I'm eligible for will not even cost me half of what an SMP would. In fact, I could probably apply to all of the medical schools two years in a row and still be left with more money than I would if I did an SMP. I did get one interview last year so it's not like my application would be hopeless. Then again, it could have been a lottery ticket, but 110 tickets would be better than 15.

 

[keenemd]

Well let me ask you this. What will you do if you don't get in this time around?

Probably be very sad, but also not in any more debt than I am now.

With your numbers, you'll be 0/115. Already, you're displaying a good deal of not merely naivete, but outright foolishness. Your cGPA is well below the 3.6 median for MD school matriculants, and is below the 10%ile for all them.
This process is not a random one. The odds of getting into any single med school, from Harvard to Rush, is ~2-5%. It is not additive by simply doing more applications.
If you can't afford a post-bac right now to repair your GPA, then work for a few years, save some money, and then get into a SMP. Or apply to DO schools right now, because you competitive for them.
This process also selects for people who know what they're doing.

Unfortunately, I do not have the privilege to simply work for a few years and save money for an SMP which may still leave me in the same position or worse. I am under enough debt from my undergraduate education as is. In fact, even if I would apply to 115 schools two years in a row, I would end up spending less than I would with tuition and living expenses at a reputable SMP.

Would you say that nothing else I have done matters because of one flaw? My upward trend in GPA with a 3.6 major GPA (biology) during my last two years of undergraduate? My participation in an NIH funded pipeline research program for disadvantaged students? Publication in a peer-reviewed journal? Volunteering and shadowing? Being a first generation college student at top 40 university?

If all of that is discounted because I struggled to adjust to an academically rigorous university when I was 18 and 19, then I am deeply troubled by how skewed the admissions process is against applicants with less than ideal backgrounds.

I would hope my application would resonate with maybe one adcom out of 115, and hopefully more. That chance alone makes the prospect more attractive than sinking into another 40-50k in debt for an SMP.

 

[claduva94]

How do you plan on paying for medical school?

 

[Goro]

Invest in MSAR and aim for the low-tier schools, who will be the most likely to reward your reinvention. There are such schools out there. Also try your state schools, if any.

But reinvention for MD schools tends to require a stellar MCAT score, based upon successful applicants who have reported here. Aim particularly for those schools whose median MCAT scores are closest to your own. This would, for example, rule out Case and Vanderbilt.
Eliminate ALL OOS public schools, since they favor the home team.

And pay attention to a school's mission. If you live outside the state of GA, you do not fit Mercer's mission. Ditto for UND if you're not from ND, or for the HBCs.

Then take time to ponder that this is a seller's market, and the vast majority of MD schools can afford to ignore applicants like you.

Adcoms favor people who have the ability to make wise and well-informed decisions. Your reasoning is neither.

Probably be very sad, but also not in any more debt than I am now.



Unfortunately, I do not have the privilege to simply work for a few years and save money for an SMP which may still leave me in the same position or worse. I am under enough debt from my undergraduate education as is. In fact, even if I would apply to 115 schools two years in a row, I would end up spending less than I would with tuition and living expenses at a reputable SMP.

Would you say that nothing else I have done matters because of one flaw? My upward trend in GPA with a 3.6 major GPA (biology) during my last two years of undergraduate? My participation in an NIH funded pipeline research program for disadvantaged students? Publication in a peer-reviewed journal? Volunteering and shadowing? Being a first generation college student at top 40 university?

If all of that is discounted because I struggled to adjust to an academically rigorous university when I was 18 and 19, then I am deeply troubled by how skewed the admissions process is against applicants with less than ideal backgrounds.

I would hope my application would resonate with maybe one adcom out of 115, and hopefully more. That chance alone makes the prospect more attractive than sinking into another 40-50k in debt for an SMP.

 

[Afford]

Why not DO schools?

 

[keenemd]

How do you plan on paying for medical school?

With a loan. Unlike the degree I would earn at an SMP, an MD would provide me an adequate means of paying back my debt.

Invest in MSAR and aim for the low-tier schools, who will be the most likely to reward your reinvention. There are such schools out there. Also try your state schools, if any.

But reinvention for MD schools tends to require a stellar MCAT score, based upon successful applicants who have reported here. Aim particularly for those schools whose median MCAT scores are closest to your own. This would, for example, rule out Case and Vanderbilt.
Eliminate ALL OOS public schools, since they favor the home team.

And pay attention to a school's mission. If you live outside the state of GA, you do not fit Mercer's mission. Ditto for UND if you're not from ND, or for the HBCs.

Then take time to ponder that this is a seller's market, and the vast majority of MD schools can afford to ignore applicants like you.

Adcoms favor people who have the ability to make wise and well-informed decisions. Your reasoning is neither.

Thank you for your advice. I am considering taking the MCAT again before January but I do fear getting a lower score and shattering any MD chances for good. Would you say an MCAT of 33-35 would significantly raise my chances? Realistically, that is the highest score range I am going to hope for. I have no state school, unfortunately.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that there were some public schools that do not greatly discriminate against OOS applicants.

Why not DO schools?

I would consider DO, but not until I've done everything I can to get into an allopathic school. From what I've learned DO's are less successful in being placed in competitive residencies, though this seems to have been changing in recent years. The thought of not being able to practice the specialty of medicine that I that I want most because I took the easy way out is almost as troubling to me as not being able to practice medicine at all.

 

[Goro]

A 33 would not be much more impressive. A 34+ and now more doors open.


Thank you for your advice. I am considering taking the MCAT again before January but I do fear getting a lower score and shattering any MD chances for good. Would you say an MCAT of 33-35 would significantly raise my chances? Realistically, that is the highest score range I am going to hope for. I have no state school, unfortunately.

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that there were some public schools that do not greatly discriminate against OOS applicants.

VCU is one, and even the UCs accept about 10% of their class from OOS. But those state schools that accept OOSers tend to either take people from next door states, or take people whose stats are > avg, like the UCs and UTx's. Therefore, even with a strong upward trend, I am not sanguine as to your chances with OOS public schools.

Better to get into medical school first, before planning your specialty.
I would consider DO, but not until I've done everything I can to get into an allopathic school. From what I've learned DO's are less successful in being placed in competitive residencies, though this seems to have been changing in recent years. The thought of not being able to practice the specialty of medicine that I that I want most because I took the easy way out is almost as troubling to me as not being able to practice medicine at all.[/QUOTE]

 

[claduva94]

DOs match infinitely better than those who don't get into medicine at all. DO or an SMP are really the best ways for you to begin to make your goals more probable. Applying to all of the MD schools hardly accomplishes that. By the time you finish all those secondaries I'd have questions about their quality. That is quite simply too many to focus on at once.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you don't have the money and time to invest in a SMP, how are you okay with throwing away 13k in MD admissions?

 

[keenemd]

DOs match infinitely better than those who don't get into medicine at all. DO or an SMP are really the best ways for you to begin to make your goals more probable. Applying to all of the MD schools hardly accomplishes that. By the time you finish all those secondaries I'd have questions about their quality. That is quite simply too many to focus on at once.

I am not going to rule out DO but the fact remains that DO's are at a disadvantage of matching in many specialties. I will not make a decision to go DO lightly because it has long term ramifications that could affect my life much more than the cost medical school applications.

As far as the quality of secondary applications, I have a year to work on them. A handful of schools have no secondaries, several repeat them year to year, and most have cookie cutter essay questions that can be cut and pasted from my responses to similar prompts from other schools. Having above a 3.0 and a >30 MCAT does not put me in great shape, but it does not get me immediately screened out at most schools. The chance that I can resonate with one adcom out of 115 does not seem negligible. After all, I did get one interview out of 15 last year at a selective medical school despite applying late.

If you don't have the money and time to invest in a SMP, how are you okay with throwing away 13k in MD admissions?

Do you think this is all black and white? Not being able to afford an SMP does not mean I am broke. There is a big difference between 13k and ~50k that I would spend on tuition and living expenses at an SMP. Unlike what I imagine to be the majority of applicants to medical school, I do not come from a middle class or wealthy background. I am financially independent and have a job doing research for a couple years but that's all I have. No safety nets. No going back to mom and dad. No help paying back my loans from undergrad.

Saving up for an SMP would take, at best, 3-4 years while my MCAT expires and the format changes leaving me at a pretty good chance that I can find myself in an even worse position than I'm in now with 50k potentially wasted and no long-term job prospects.

Contrast that with the alternative of applying as broadly as I can. I can start saving now, start working on quality essays and personal statements, and, if I am not accepted, I would still be competitive for DO schools.

 

[claduva94]

Ok we have given you our advice but you seem to have had your mind made up from the start. Good luck with your plan.

 

[darklabel]

I did an SMP and incurred the debt as did most of my classmates, but we got where we wanted to be. I had similar stats and I know that if I never did my SMP, I wouldn't have been successful. I understand the idea of debt is scary but just applying everywhere won't help you much at all and you will burn out from writing all those secondaries. You can easily cut out 50-60 schools that are either far reaches and state schools.

I highly recommend the SMP option. Most people go paying for it in loans and understand the risks of not being accepted so if its that scary to you, then just do you plan and when it doesn't pan out, just apply DO.

 

[Afford]

If you're going to apply to 115 medical schools, at least make 30 of them DO schools.

Secondaries are tricky because even when two schools ask the same thing, they can have different mission statements, so the same essay might not have the same effect when your essay advocates something that isn't in the school's mission.

 

[edgerock24]

No offense OP, but you do not have the credentials to be choosy as to where you apply to medical school.

Apply DO heavy and don't look back.

 

[keenemd]

Ok we have given you our advice but you seem to have had your mind made up from the start. Good luck with your plan.

I haven't made up my mind yet, I am looking for opposing opinions so I can better shape my plans for next year. I have a year to think on it, and I really do appreciate the responses I have been getting. At this point it does not seem worth it to apply to OOS schools that accept less than 10% of students from out of state, but I will still need to apply broadly to have any chance. maybe 60-70 would optimize my chances (though admittedly they'll still be pretty low at MD schools).

I did an SMP and incurred the debt as did most of my classmates, but we got where we wanted to be. I had similar stats and I know that if I never did my SMP, I wouldn't have been successful. I understand the idea of debt is scary but just applying everywhere won't help you much at all and you will burn out from writing all those secondaries. You can easily cut out 50-60 schools that are either far reaches and state schools.

I highly recommend the SMP option. Most people go paying for it in loans and understand the risks of not being accepted so if its that scary to you, then just do you plan and when it doesn't pan out, just apply DO.

Do you have any SMP's that you would recommend? If I were to consider one and take on the risk that it entails, there has to be a very high percentage of graduates from the program to get into medical school. Otherwise I'd only have a useless master's degree and massive debt.



@Goro How often would you say someone's personal statement or secondary makes a big difference in admissions and what kind of personal statements would you say resonate with adcoms most? In my one interview last year, they mentioned mine as very unique and compelling. It was likely the only thing that convinced them to interview me. I do recognize that thousands are read each year and they would likely all blend together for an adcom member.

 

[Goro]

They're a dime a dozen. TUNCOM, TUCOM-CA, Rosy F, Drexel (has 2) PCOM, Georgetown, Mt Sinai come to mind.

The thing about these programs is that if you do well, you're in that school. These serve as the back door to medical schools. The improvement you shown over the past 1-2 years says you can handle these programs.

Do you have any SMP's that you would recommend? If I were to consider one and take on the risk that it entails, there has to be a very high percentage of graduates from the program to get into medical school. Otherwise I'd only have a useless master's degree and massive debt.

They don't. Every now and then someone will say "wonderful essay" when our Adcom meets, but the PS simply tells us who you are and "why Medicine?" They don't blow us over. Your grades, MCAT and the rest of the ENTIRE app is what gets you into the door. Compelling stories are part of the latter.

@Goro How often would you say someone's personal statement or secondary makes a big difference in admissions and what kind of personal statements would you say resonate with adcoms most? In my one interview last year, they mentioned mine as very unique and compelling. It was likely the only thing that convinced them to interview me. I do recognize that thousands are read each year and they would likely all blend together for an adcom member.[/QUOTE]

 

[shopsteward]

Others have given good advice on your strategy for getting into med school. I am concerned that your attitude to your finances is as much as a losing gamble as your strategy on your applications. You say you grew up poor: you need to learn about personal finance and sort your financial situation out now, rather than hoping for it all to come right in 8 or 9 or 10 years' time when you have finally made it to an attending salary. I am particularly concerned that you seem to think you need $20,000 a year as living expenses while doing an SMP: you need to be living a lot cheaper than that. There are a lot of resources about living frugally and paying off debt: you are going to need them if you are adding 4 or 5 more years of student debt to your current undergraduate debt, plus at least another 3 years after that on a resident's salary.

You say you are a reapplicant. Assuming you applied last year as a senior to start this summer immediately after finishing undergrad and are now planning to reapply next year, then starting now you have two years as a college graduate in which to earn some money, pay at least the minimum towards your undergraduate debt and save towards further study. Put your head down, work hard, get some money coming in. While you are doing that, do a self-bacc by taking undergraduate classes as an extension student and getting all As to sort out the major weakness in your app: your GPA. Much cheaper to do it that way than an SMP, and it also fits better with your "I grew up poor but I'm bootstrapping my way into medicine" narrative. Have a look at the non-trad forum for examples of how to do it.

 

[Doctor Dream]

With your numbers, you'll be 0/115. Already, you're displaying a good deal of not merely naivete, but outright foolishness. Your cGPA is well below the 3.6 median for MD school matriculants, and is below the 10%ile for all them.

This process is not a random one. The odds of getting into any single med school, from Harvard to Rush, is ~2-5%. It is not additive by simply doing more applications.

If you can't afford a post-bac right now to repair your GPA, then work for a few years, save some money, and then get into a SMP. Or apply to DO schools right now, because you're competitive for them.

This process also selects for people who know what they're doing.

I'll preface my thoughts OP by saying I'm just a premed like you. But, since you're adamant about not doing an SMP, for the love of god, listen to the invaluable advice of Goro, a DO school adcom. Accept the fact that your lower GPA isn't going to land you an MD acceptance, boost your app for the DO cycle, get a DO acceptance and become a medical doctor.

I just can't identify with people who would rather fail entirely at MD than apply DO. Are you missing out on residency opportunities with a DO? Sure. But bottom line is you're going to be a medical doctor, whether you have a MD or DO. You might not be going into derm or something, but you'll still have a kicka$$ job (note the dollar signs lol). A job most likely a heck of a lot better than what you'll get with your bachelor degree.

 

[naivePremed]

what are my chances into getting into an SMP (MD/DO) with these stats : 3.18 cGPA, 2.85 sGPA with no MCAT yet?