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applying DO + MD= applying MD + dentistry????

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Doc Henry, May 12, 2007.

  1. Doc Henry

    Doc Henry blowin' in the wind 10+ Year Member

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    MDApps:
    So when discussing my application with one of two pre med advisors ...I mentioned my plan to apply broadly and to both DO and MD like I had talked about with another pre med advisor.

    This advisor strongly disagreed with the notion of applying both DO and MD. He said that they are two very different approaches to medicine and that it is like applying to med school and dentist school.

    In his opinion an applicant should make a decision about which type of medicine they want to practice and only apply to those schools.

    I disagreed with this statement, as I feel the two paths don't have to be that different unless you want them to be....

    I'm interested in your opinions???
     
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  3. tacrum43

    tacrum43 Behold the mighty echidna 7+ Year Member

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    MDApps:
    If you're interested in both and have the resources to apply to both, then why not? If you find you don't like what you see at an interview, you can always withdraw afterwards.
     
  4. badasshairday

    badasshairday Vascular and Interventional Radiology 10+ Year Member

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    Apply to both. I'd also be applying to DO also but I don't have a letter of rec from a DO.
     
  5. spicedmanna

    spicedmanna Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    Your advisor is out of touch with reality. Enough said.

    Saying any more would be :beat:
     
  6. Depakote

    Depakote Pediatric Anesthesiologist Rocket Scientist Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    I got into 4 DO schools without a LOR from a DO, just FYI.
     
  7. UMP

    UMP Recovered Under-Achiever 7+ Year Member

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    yeah, your advisor is an idiot... which tends to be the norm nowadays :rolleyes:
     
  8. Old ortho

    Old ortho 2+ Year Member

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    It is perfectly OK to apply broadly to both DO and MD schools, esp. if you feel your stats are not the strongest.
     
  9. Whacking a horse in the crotch with a stick? Sounds like fun! :laugh:
     
  10. Dookter

    Dookter Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    Hey, I can top that advisor. The head one at my ugrad didn't know what MSTP means. I told her, but she made someone call Vandy and ask if their MSTP program was the same as MD/PhD.
     
  11. UMP

    UMP Recovered Under-Achiever 7+ Year Member

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    I had an advisor that didn't even know that DO schools replace grades for repeated courses whereas MD schools don't... this is basic stuff here!

    Everything I needed to know about applying for Med School I learned from SDN.
     
  12. Doc Henry

    Doc Henry blowin' in the wind 10+ Year Member

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    MDApps:
    Your responses are pretty much what I expected.

    just to clarify...

    I'm not asking for advice. I have plans to apply to both.

    I just wanted to see what you guys thought about my advisor's opinion that MD and DO are too different to apply to both
     
  13. DeadCactus

    DeadCactus SDN Lifetime Donor Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    SDN >>>>>>>>>>> almost all pre-med advisors
     
  14. tkim

    tkim 10 cc's cordrazine Physician 10+ Year Member

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    Ask your advisor exactly what makes them too different to apply to both. I'm curious what the answer would be.

    And for the second round, ask how, if they are so different, that MD's and DO's can work in the same practices, hospitals and specialties without difficulty?
     
  15. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom Banned Physician 10+ Year Member

    I kind of agree with the advisor actually...

    The whole reason the DO degree was invented was because Dr. Andrew Still didn't agree with how MD's were going about medicine. Osteopathic medicine was supposed to offer something different from allopathic.

    So yes while they can (and should be able to) do everything as MD's, they have a different philosophy, the whole reason for its existence. Which one you believe in shouldn't be determined by which one accepts you or gives you the best financial aid package...
     
  16. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator 10+ Year Member

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    I was considering applying to both DO and MD programs and heard a lot of mentions of this "different philosophy". But when I tried to get people to nail down what this is exactly, I only heard a lot of half answers.

    History lessons about why DO came to be was interesting, but doesn't imply a different form of medicine. I heard sort of nebulous things about wanting to take care of the "whole patient", but I think allopaths try to do that as well.

    I think osteopathic schools can have different philosophies than allopathic schools (they seem to be more accepting/forgiving of those who came from very varied paths to medicine), but to consider general osteopathic medicine different than allopathic medicine is probably dangerous thinking.
     
  17. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty! 7+ Year Member

    The goal of osteopathic medical schools is, to imbue students (via its curriculum) with an emphasis on a different health care philosophy. It is up to each student, faculty, what they do with this extra emphasis. Some students identify themselves with this emphasis and carry it with them, while other students do not.

    Whether a similar emphasis is used at any other allopathic medical school is open to discussion. On the other hand, osteopathic medical schools, have historically and sistematically applied this emphasis.
     
  18. Dookter

    Dookter Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    If you'll notice, one person just said this different philosophy is never really defined. Then the next post makes mention of this different philosophy without defining it...classic.
     
  19. StrengthDoc

    StrengthDoc 7+ Year Member

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    To balance things out...

    I sat down with a premed advisor who told me I could now receive/call myself an MD from an osteopathic school. I kept my mouth from falling open....barely.
     
  20. kelvin81

    kelvin81 Member 5+ Year Member

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    To graduate as a pre-med advisor, at least a B in an SDN training session is required. This pre-req. is being reviewed to apply for all pre-health advisors.:p
     
  21. xanthomondo

    xanthomondo nom nom nom Banned Physician 10+ Year Member

    Not to be off-topic here, but is there something weird going on with SDN?

    Every post on the forum's main page says the last post was made ~4 hours ago but when you click the link there appears to be more
     
  22. spicedmanna

    spicedmanna Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    No, it's okay. I welcome the thread hijack, myself, being tired of MD/DO-type threads.

    In answer to your question, yes, there is something weird going on with SDN. When SDN behaves in this manner, I think it is the result of a database replication problem. I don't know for sure, since I'm not familiar with their server/load-balancing/database setup, but I think when a certain record updates to one database it fails to replicate to the other successfully, or completely (or something of that nature); thus the peculiar discrepancy you are noticing. That's what I think anyway. It's happened a few times before.
     
  23. uhohspaghettio

    uhohspaghettio Banned Banned

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    :hijacked:
     
  24. Oculus Sinistra

    Oculus Sinistra Finish it. 5+ Year Member

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    Wow, do advisors really spew garbage this misguided?

    Sucks.
     
  25. RockShox

    RockShox 2+ Year Member

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    There are two points here. The first is that, historically speaking your advisor is correct. The second is that historically speaking history is in the past.

    When you look at the historical origins of each discipline you will see that MD and DO are fundamentally different. Kind of like a Catholic and a Hindu. While both believe in some transcending eternal goal they differ on their beliefs in both the nature of the problem and how to solve it.

    Fundamentally, the osteopathic belief, as the name hints at, is that disease could be cured through the manipulation of muscles and bones to relieve the blockage of vessels and nerves. The allopathic belief of course is that this was cuckoo and went on trying to invent elixirs and tonics (these are 19th. century terms for Prozac). Now as time went on antibiotics were discovered, scientific method entered the scene, and Watson and Crick stole some poor British gal's work on DNA. During that time allopathic medicine received greater validation and became the standard for conventional medicine while scientific research widdled away at the belief in the universal benefit of OMT (or OMM). Not that some uses for OMT are absent but just that most things, we now know, cannot be cured using it. So in order to not end up like the homeopaths (not that homeopaths are bad people they just have a really hard time getting any hospital privileges with their degrees) the DO's decided to embrace the future instead of fighting it and have mostly adopted allopathic methods of practice with sprinklings of OMT just to keep it real.

    The allopaths having found a new brother...or sister (damn Feminists!).. started warming up to the osteopaths and forgot all of the nasty name calling that went on and we all live happily in a Shangri-La with Rodney King as the President (sorry that last part was bad tequila talking).

    And just because I can't get enough of the abuse this poor animal is taking... :beat:
     
  26. Our advisor told me if I decided to become a premed (he doesn't know I plan to apply) I should major in bio and minor in chemistry if I wanted a chance in hell of getting in. :laugh: I told him that since the only difference between one of my current majors and a bio major is three extra classes, that I would just take the three classes if I really wanted to become a doc. :rolleyes: :laugh:
     
  27. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty! 7+ Year Member


    Dookter,

    The poster in question did not say the philosophy "is really never defined" , the poster said she/he heard nebulous things about it. And if you pay attention to what she/he said she/he hinted to it. I was responding to her/him because she/he seemed to have somewhat of an idea, however, SDN did not copy the quotes.

    While my post may have seemed to be an open answer directed to anyone , it was specific to that poster. I never intended to define "the philosophy" with that post.

    If I must, however, I will say that the philosophy of osteopathic medicine is a historical, original, comprehensive, medical system with emphasis on non-pharmacological, holistic health care approach.

    Whether one can find an allopathic physician, now, in the future, or any time in the past, who also held to these principles, does not negate the fact that osteopathic medicine was the first system of health care, to institute these principles as its fundamental working philosophy.
     
  28. OK, that's nice. And the French also developed the theory of using armor and motor vehicles to facilitate battlefield movements, but it was the Germans who took it and perfected it (this is blitzkrieg for those amongst us who don't compulsively watch the History Channel), and turned it into a standard practice of modern warfare.

    The point you ask? Well, it is thus: it doesn't really matter (unless it involves money or a degree of penis envy that would make Freud say "You all have issues") who did it first. What matters is that pretty much anyone going into medicine these days is taught a similar approach- just as anyone who is taught military tactics will be taught the techniques that the French developed only to have them used against them. It's an academic debate that doesn't matter a whole hell of a lot just as long as it is applied correctly, be that in medicine or be it in warfare.

    The difference between osteopathic and allopathic medicine in modern times is minimal at best. The continued insistance upon an artifical seperation because a minority of the members of the former camp are beholden to the past for some reason that astounds me. While we must pay homage to our roots, and rightfully so, only a fool or a madman will allow them to prevent him from advancing his cause. Know when to run, and know when to stand and fight, but most importantly, know when to come to the bargaining table and find middle ground if that is the most expeditious means of ending ongoing strife.

    Since killing all those who oppose you is not a valid option here (this is one of the few times I will say that, and it is for entirely selfish reasons that I say that, mind you :laugh: ), then finding a common chord and putting the debate and the rest of the crap that goes along with it is the only viable choice. Otherwise we are simply looking at the medical professional equivalent of Idi Amin looking at Slobodan Milosevic and going "You know, you're taking this ethnic cleansing thing way too seriously."

    That is unless, you enjoy enduring endless MD v. DO debate..... :smuggrin:
     
  29. Toohotinvegas33

    Toohotinvegas33 Currently Glasgow 3 7+ Year Member

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    The smiley is actually whacking the horse with its own crotch. :eek:
     
  30. DocBR

    DocBR MS-3 5+ Year Member

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    I applied to 2 DO schools w/o a LOR from a DO and was accepted to both. I do not think it matters to either type of school what degree a recommending physician has.
     
  31. Dookter

    Dookter Senior Member 5+ Year Member

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    I didn't say you were obligated to define the philosophy. I just thought it was funny that one poster says he can't get people to nail down the definition and the very next post is just as vague about the DO philosophy as it could be. I didn't mean to imply that you were trying to answer that question or that you were some sort of spokesperson who should answer the question. I just thought it was ironic.

    I will admit, however, that I also have no idea what the DO philospohy is all about. I had never even heard of DO until I was shadowing one night in college and I asked one of the residents where she went to school. She said it was a DO school, and she gave me the party line about manipulation and taking care of the whole patient...blah blah blah. That didn't mean much to me, especially at the time. After all, I had no idea DO schools existed like 5 minutes prior to my coversation with her. Now, 3 years later, I still don't have a good grasp of what DO is really all about. I also really do not understand how DO docs could really practice any differently unless insurance pays out differently to DO docs, which I doubt. Furthermore, I have not really met anyone who firmly believes in any of the DO stuff that I have heard about. It seems like people say, "Oh, well we can do the same things as MDs." Nobody is like, "This is what we do differently, and this is why it is the best way to practice medicine." It seems the emphasis is always on the similarity of DOs and MDs. I guess I just do not understand the reason for the distinction.
     
  32. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

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    Oh, puh-lease.
    This would make sense to me if MDs still practiced civil war medicine, but they don't. I prefer to think that DOs were once ahead of their times in being patient-centered and stressing prevention. Now conventional primary care medicine has caught up.
     
  33. Eric Lindros

    Eric Lindros Guest

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    The difference between osteopathic and allopathic medicine may very well be minimal at best

    but many times the difference between a DO and MD is huge.
     
  34. tkatchev

    tkatchev 2+ Year Member

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    Deleted
     
  35. Critical Mass

    Critical Mass Guest

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    Yeah like if you ever have one of those strange brain problems like hemispace inattention in which you can't draw circles but can draw squares in half of your visual field. Then technically it may be harder to write DO after your name than MD.
     
  36. notdeadyet

    notdeadyet Still in California Moderator 10+ Year Member

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    True. And often the difference between a DO and a DO is huge. As is the difference between an MD and a MD.

    My PCP is a DO and is the best doctor I've had. But I don't assume a DO to have a certain personality or take on medicine any more than I would an MD.

    If the "DO's are different" argument was really believed (the whole-person medicine/non-pharm approach) at face value, it would make it very hard for DOs to get accepted to allopathic residencies like neurosurgery and whatnot. I think that this is why there are DOs that proclaim how different their education is from allopaths and why there are so many DOs that proclaim how it's really the same.
     
  37. MasonPrehealth

    MasonPrehealth Director of Admissions 5+ Year Member

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    Some of us don't.
     
  38. MasonPrehealth

    MasonPrehealth Director of Admissions 5+ Year Member

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    Some schools require the DO LOR, but some schools don't.
     
  39. Eric Lindros

    Eric Lindros Guest

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    What I am trying to say is, there are bad MDs and bad DOs, but a bad DO tends to be worse than a bad MD. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, as with everything in life, but I am going by what you will hear reputation- wise at your average hospital.

    There are MDs that slip through the cracks and become crappy doctors. But there are DOs that REALLLY slip through the cracks and become bad doctors on a different level than MDs in general. That's what I am trying to say. It has nothing to do with the quality of the training or the actual philosophy of DO (which is not really different) but rather the general intelligence and quality of the applicant in general.

    I just do not think it's correct nor responsible to say "all MDs are exactly the same as all DOs on average" because in the real world, that's not true. Do the have the same potential to be based on education? Yes. Are they in reality? Probably not.
     
  40. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Yep, he's an idiot. I applied to both -- no one thought anything about it. In Oklahoma, it actually raises some suspicion about your motivation to be a doctor if you apply to the allopathic school but not the osteopathic school.
     
  41. arsenewenger

    arsenewenger 2+ Year Member

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    ...from who?
     
  42. Jack Daniel

    Jack Daniel In Memory of Riley Jane Moderator Emeritus 5+ Year Member

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    Now you're talking like a crazy person ;)

    On what are you basing these opinions? These may be your perceptions, but to me, it sounds ridiculous. Bad is bad is bad. To say that a bad DO is worse than a bad MD sounds like simple bias.

    The education is equivalent, not the same, but equivalent. Therefore a bad DO is equivalent to a bad MD.
     
  43. Depakote

    Depakote Pediatric Anesthesiologist Rocket Scientist Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

    and here is where you can find out which is which...
     
  44. Doctor Bagel

    Doctor Bagel so cheap and juicy Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    I've known people who have interviewed at my school who have had to explain to their interviewers why they didn't apply to OSU (Oklahoma's osteopathic school). I'm not saying this happens at most schools, but it can happen if you live in a state with an osteopathic school. For example, if someone lives in Texas and says they really want to be a doctor and yet they don't apply to TCOM, I can see where it would need some explanation.
     
  45. spicedmanna

    spicedmanna Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    :beat: :beat: :rolleyes:

    I knew it was only a matter of time before this morphed into an MD vs. DO-type argument. There's really nothing to argue about. The differences are clear, just as the similarities:

    1. Basically no difference in practice. In this day and age, there is practically no difference that can be observed in practice between an MD and a DO. Don't believe me? Go shadow a few. You won't be able to tell the difference unless they tell you they are a DO, or an MD, or you look at their white coat, if they are wearing it, and it has their degree printed on it.
    2. Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine. The major noticeable difference in a minority of practicing DO's is that they practice an additional modality of medicine, when it is indicated, that all DO's learn in osteopathic medical school, called osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM). It is very basic hands-on medicine, a extra modality by which to diagnose and treat conditions. Yes, all DO's learn OMM, it is integrated into the curriculum, and it is tested on the COMLEX-USA, the board exam that DO's need to take and pass in order to become licensed. However, just because all DO's learn it, doesn't mean they all practice it, and there are certain specialities where OMM is more useful.
    3. Historical Differences. It is quite easy to learn the history of osteopathic medicine, so I'll spare you the details. Basically, do a google search, and there you are. The advent of modern medicine has basically diminished the philosophical gap to the point where there isn't really any. The sound practice of medicine is just that and it isn't really dependent on the degree attained. However, it should be stated that while these so-called principles of good patient care are quite common among practitioners of both traditions, they are overtly stated and taught in osteopathic medical schools, to varying degrees. What I am talking about are the Tenets of Osteopathic Medicine. These principles formed the historical foundation of osteopathic medicine, but as stated in a previous post, are now becoming integrated into the sound practice of medicine in general.

    There you go. This is my take on the situation. Now, let's stop arguing. Besides, we all know that a much overlooked difference between the two types of medical schools is that the students in DO schools are hotter. j/k :smuggrin: ;)
     
  46. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty! 7+ Year Member

    It seems you missed the purpose of my post. I was not implying perfection or lack of it by indicating the origins of osteopathic medicine. My post was only meant to clarify what osteopathic medicine philosophy is - irrespective of what anyone else later down the line would do with it.

    Can you back that claim?


    Homes, it's simple, it is called the sweet taste of independence and power. Why in the world would a private entity (henceforth "the AOA") which has gained the independent power to practice medicine as they wish, relinquish that power in order to please pre-med and some medical students who wish it ["the AOA"] was different? I know I would not, you would have to kill me first :laugh:



    I am not sure what you are talking about here, but I get the feeling you lack the degree of experience with AOA - AMA politics which would afford you the ability to give a qualified opinion on the matter.

    I love debating period, I must admit, it is somewhat one of my vices, when I have the time that is :cool:
     
  47. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty! 7+ Year Member


    You will find two camps on this issue (in both the older docs and the more contemporary ones): those that say what you claimed above and those who passionately abide by how different their approach to medicine is. Both seem to have valid points. Your experience with osteopathic physicians does not invalidate the existence of others who are proud of how they apply the osteopathic philosophy (for a working definition of osteopathic philosophy, please see: post #26 of this very thread)
     
  48. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty! 7+ Year Member

    Not exactly, if I am a program director at an allopathic program, I could care less if part of your professional philosophy involves for example a belief in a "spiritual power" as long as that believe does not impede you from fulfilling your role as a resident in my residency program.
     
  49. medhacker

    medhacker We can end world poverty! 7+ Year Member

    I am afraid to err on the side of politeness when I call this claim a fallacy...

    Nothing but an anecdotal, good for nothing, claim which can't be sustantiated beyond the "alleged" experience of the author :thumbdown:
     
  50. GreenShirt

    GreenShirt 10+ Year Member

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    When I was getting ready to appy to DO schools, I got the impression that I would be grilled about the DO philisophy to determine whether I was a "true believer" and scorned if I applied to MD schools as well. In reality, they didn't seem to really care all that much. In other words DO schools don't care if you also apply MD and visa versa. As long as you can through a pitch at each school why you like their program you're fine.

    As for pre-med advisors, sadly not always exactly right. My pre-med office didn't even keep an up-to-date list on all the DO schools. I had to keep calling and telling them which ones were missing. When I asked my pre-med advisor if I should apply to DO school, she said it wasn't a good idea. After multiple interview offers and acceptances, I'm still not sure why it wasn't a good idea.

    Bottom line, if you want to apply to both, then do so.
     
  51. Dr2Bee

    Dr2Bee 2+ Year Member

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    You counselor doesnt know exact what he/she is talkin about.
    It's perfectly fine to apply to both MD and DO schools. Plenty of students do it every year. But be ready to justify your reasons and be aware of the different philosophy for DO school when you go onto interviews.
     

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