Applying to "backup" specialties?

[Ellie321]

Will this greatly hurt one's chances of getting into their specialty of choice?

Example:
Student wants to get into specialty 'A'. However, 'A' is extremely competitive and student's stats are only marginally average for that specialty. Student also enjoys specialty 'B' (though not nearly as much as 'A'). 'B' is less competitive.

- Apply to both 'A' and 'B' ?
- hurt chances of getting in 'A' ?
- hurt chances of getting into a great institution in 'B' ?
- How would one write a personal statement that wouldn't piss off 'B' and make 'A' question one's commitment?

Anyone that's applied to 2 specialties want to share their experience?

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[lordman]

I think you can find the answer from this sentence:
If you were a Program Director, you have 2 applicants for one spot. One of them is only interested in your speciality & that is clear from his/her CV. On the other hand, the other applicant (from his/her CV) shows interest in your speciality & other speciality(s). Both of them have the same USMLE scores or let me say near scores. Then Who will you take into your program ?

 

[drpatelplasticsurgery]

Will this greatly hurt one's chances of getting into their specialty of choice?

Example:
Student wants to get into specialty 'A'. However, 'A' is extremely competitive and student's stats are only marginally average for that specialty. Student also enjoys specialty 'B' (though not nearly as much as 'A'). 'B' is less competitive.

- Apply to both 'A' and 'B' ?
- hurt chances of getting in 'A' ?
- hurt chances of getting into a great institution in 'B' ?
- How would one write a personal statement that wouldn't piss off 'B' and make 'A' question one's commitment?

Anyone that's applied to 2 specialties want to share their experience?

i just matched in combined plastic surgery and dual-applied to general surgery in case things weren't gonna work out. i had some GREAT gen surg choices and was VERY tempted to rank them higher, but in the end stuck w/ conventional wisdom, maintained as long a contiguous ranklist in my preferred specialty as i could, and fortunately landed a spot.

basically, it's like you're two people applying w/ two application profiles that are 80% identical w/ different emphases. except for my surgery clerkship LOR, my plastics letters were from plastic surgeons and my gen surg letters were from the trauma staff w/ whom i rotated. altogether i had 7 LORs in my deck of cards, 3-4 designated for each program.

since plastics has multiple ways to train, i.e., integrated, combined (3+3), independent (after gen surg, ortho, ENT, urol, etc.), my strategy was (1) to apply to ALL 51 plastics programs and (2) apply to ALL 45 gen surg programs that happened to have an in-house plastic surgery fellowship. that way i was a credible gen surg candidate whose interest in plastics wasn't a turnoff to my interviewers (the non-plastics guys may have joked about their plastics colleagues but were not gonna wanna turn away a strong gen surg candidate). i DID NOT dual apply to any one institution (i.e., i applied to each place for their integrated/combined plastics program OR for their gen surg program, NOT both) - this avoids ticking off people and maintaining your credibility/integrity as a candidate. [the only place i MIGHT have considered doing this was my home institution, since they prolly would've been understanding of my choice to interview both for plastics and for gen surg.]

i can tell you my interview yield for gen surg was FAR better (~80%) than it was for plastics (~10%). my goal was to become a plastic surgeon, no matter what, and to obtain a categorial position. to me scrambling was unacceptable, and getting a research fellow position was just not for me (i'm older, already did 2 yrs benchwork, and wanna keep my momentum and clinical training going).

i had 6 plastics programs on my ranklist and 16 gen surg programs. plastics is ultra competitive and the process can be stressful, but i was fairly chill throughout b/c i was very comfortable w/ my fallback plan, albeit up-to-4-yrs longer in training/research. you have to look at yourself realistically and guesstimate your chances...though honoring surgery, i was not AOA; though 240+, i was not 250+ on Step 1; though i had 6+ publications, only 2 were plastics related and none were 1st or 2nd authored. so my prognosis was: "probably will match, just not sure where" and "screw up ONCE playing the game and you might not succeed"

you have to be super organized to make it work. draft your personal statement for your intended specialty, then tweak it/spin doctor it so it appeals for a second personal statement pertinent to your alternate specialty. secure LORs ASAP, at least get e-mail/verbal commitments from your writers. pester them regularly and periodically, w/ increasing frequency as the ERAS deadline approaches. set up a tabbed Excel spreadsheet to track all your apps - do NOT let anything fall thru the cracks! i tracked ALL 95 applications for EACH element of my app - EACH LOR, transcript, essay that was downloaded was tracked and dated like i worked for UPS. i set up dings that sounded off my iPhone so when e-mailed interview offers came, i was making calls/e-mails to set up interview dates STAT (i was doing this like crazy while turning over cases in the OR during my away sub-I).

it's expensive (i think i dropped $10k), but the alternative - scrambling, prelim, not getting your chosen field is an extremely high opportunity cost. DON'T LET IT HAPPEN - be aggressive but professional in getting what you want, leave it all on the court. chances are you'll succeed, and if not have a parachute that'll still get you to your destination. DO NOT limit yourself geographically, attend ALL interviews for your preferred specialty, and DON'T tick off a single soul - treat everyone w/ respect, hold your cards close but DON'T LIE. remember in 6-10 yrs you may be looking for a job at any of the institutions that gave you an interview as a medical student.

PM me if you'd like more detail...there are many smarter/talented ppl than me who have fallen on their swords for not being anywhere near as OCD as me.

 

[qmcat]

What is your take on applying to different specialties at different hospitals, but the hospitals are affiliated with the same university network system? For example, if you apply for plastics at the university hospital and general surgery at the private/community hospital, are you at risk of them finding out since they are both primary teaching centers for that certain university?

 

[dpmd]

Make sure your letter writers are on the right page. Having a totally separate set is probably the best plan. Having your letter say what a great orthopaedic surgeon you would be to your general surgery backup will lead to fun times during the interview (or not getting an interview). I was honest about why I was applying for g surg, because since all my sub-I's were for ortho and my reasearch year after graduation was in ortho. If I had dual applied at first it would have been easier to cover up, but I wasn't ready to give in at that point (after experiencing the horror of the scramble-even though I decided to do research instead- it was much easier to decide on a **** or get off the pot approach). The key is to actually be dedicated to completing the residency you get. If your plan is to keep applying while you are in your backup residency and potentially leave them in a lurch you will not be popular.

 

[ESU_MD]

now THAT is how to take the bull by the horns and get what you want.

hardcore

to the victor goes the spoils

i just matched in combined plastic surgery and dual-applied to general surgery in case things weren't gonna work out. i had some GREAT gen surg choices and was VERY tempted to rank them higher, but in the end stuck w/ conventional wisdom, maintained as long a contiguous ranklist in my preferred specialty as i could, and fortunately landed a spot.

basically, it's like you're two people applying w/ two application profiles that are 80% identical w/ different emphases. except for my surgery clerkship LOR, my plastics letters were from plastic surgeons and my gen surg letters were from the trauma staff w/ whom i rotated. altogether i had 7 LORs in my deck of cards, 3-4 designated for each program.

since plastics has multiple ways to train, i.e., integrated, combined (3+3), independent (after gen surg, ortho, ENT, urol, etc.), my strategy was (1) to apply to ALL 51 plastics programs and (2) apply to ALL 45 gen surg programs that happened to have an in-house plastic surgery fellowship. that way i was a credible gen surg candidate whose interest in plastics wasn't a turnoff to my interviewers (the non-plastics guys may have joked about their plastics colleagues but were not gonna wanna turn away a strong gen surg candidate). i DID NOT dual apply to any one institution (i.e., i applied to each place for their integrated/combined plastics program OR for their gen surg program, NOT both) - this avoids ticking off people and maintaining your credibility/integrity as a candidate. [the only place i MIGHT have considered doing this was my home institution, since they prolly would've been understanding of my choice to interview both for plastics and for gen surg.]

i can tell you my interview yield for gen surg was FAR better (~80%) than it was for plastics (~10%). my goal was to become a plastic surgeon, no matter what, and to obtain a categorial position. to me scrambling was unacceptable, and getting a research fellow position was just not for me (i'm older, already did 2 yrs benchwork, and wanna keep my momentum and clinical training going).

i had 6 plastics programs on my ranklist and 16 gen surg programs. plastics is ultra competitive and the process can be stressful, but i was fairly chill throughout b/c i was very comfortable w/ my fallback plan, albeit up-to-4-yrs longer in training/research. you have to look at yourself realistically and guesstimate your chances...though honoring surgery, i was not AOA; though 240+, i was not 250+ on Step 1; though i had 6+ publications, only 2 were plastics related and none were 1st or 2nd authored. so my prognosis was: "probably will match, just not sure where" and "screw up ONCE playing the game and you might not succeed"

you have to be super organized to make it work. draft your personal statement for your intended specialty, then tweak it/spin doctor it so it appeals for a second personal statement pertinent to your alternate specialty. secure LORs ASAP, at least get e-mail/verbal commitments from your writers. pester them regularly and periodically, w/ increasing frequency as the ERAS deadline approaches. set up a tabbed Excel spreadsheet to track all your apps - do NOT let anything fall thru the cracks! i tracked ALL 95 applications for EACH element of my app - EACH LOR, transcript, essay that was downloaded was tracked and dated like i worked for UPS. i set up dings that sounded off my iPhone so when e-mailed interview offers came, i was making calls/e-mails to set up interview dates STAT (i was doing this like crazy while turning over cases in the OR during my away sub-I).

it's expensive (i think i dropped $10k), but the alternative - scrambling, prelim, not getting your chosen field is an extremely high opportunity cost. DON'T LET IT HAPPEN - be aggressive but professional in getting what you want, leave it all on the court. chances are you'll succeed, and if not have a parachute that'll still get you to your destination. DO NOT limit yourself geographically, attend ALL interviews for your preferred specialty, and DON'T tick off a single soul - treat everyone w/ respect, hold your cards close but DON'T LIE. remember in 6-10 yrs you may be looking for a job at any of the institutions that gave you an interview as a medical student.

PM me if you'd like more detail...there are many smarter/talented ppl than me who have fallen on their swords for not being anywhere near as OCD as me.

 

[drpatelplasticsurgery]

What is your take on applying to different specialties at different hospitals, but the hospitals are affiliated with the same university network system? For example, if you apply for plastics at the university hospital and general surgery at the private/community hospital, are you at risk of them finding out since they are both primary teaching centers for that certain university?

get some advice from your in-house mentor(s), including residents in your desired specialty. i would say any fear of "being found out" can spiral out of control and turn into flatout lying, for which if caught will blackball you from BOTH places and potentially more nationwide. SO many candidates i met on the trail kept their plastics interest actively hidden on the gen surg trail, which i think actually hurt them at some places where maybe they WANTED ppl w/ an interest (e.g., Minnesota, Duke for whatever reason crank out CT fellows and looking at the past 20 yrs of data, only a few random folks pursue a plastics fellowship, and NOT b/c graduates from those places can't get great spots if they tried)

you don't have to advertise, but if you know folks at both places collaborate/talk about candidates, then be open and honest and express credible, legitimate reasons for rotating in different things at these 2 hospitals (who for whatever reasons are affiliated, maybe only loosely b/c of money or political or hospital survival issues).

if you're especially keen on staying in your current location, i would say this is kosher but cover your bases as mentioned above. like i think i said before, the ONE place i considered dual applying plastics and gen surg was my home institution - most likely to be accepting of that strategy, and the gen surg ppl are the most likely to want to try to keep you, even knowing they may be 2nd choice to your more desired specialty path there.

 

[cpants]

It's more feasible in something like integrated plastics or CT, where there is a clear path to the same goal. It is more difficult to apply to gen surg as a backup when you are going for ENT, ortho, neuro, or URO. The reason is that all of these require extensive work in the field to be competitive, and it will be obvious to gen surg programs that you are dual applying, hurting your chances there. Also double applying limits the time you will have to make yourself as competitive as possible for your first choice. Furthermore, if the subspecialty guys figure out what you are doing, it will hurt your chances on that side as well. As with med school rejection, the correct answer to what you will do if rejected is regroup and reapply. With plastics it doesn't matter, because you can just say yes I want to be a plastic surgeon, and there are multiple roads to travel to get there. A backup plan with the other specialties may show a lack of commitment. You only want to be an ENT if you can match to it on the first attempt?

The other obvious drawback is that you may have serious regrets if you end up matching to your backup plan. Most of the independent sub-specialties are pretty different from general surgery in some fundamental ways. If you decide to do a backup plan, you may find that medicine, peds, ob/gyn, or something else may be a better fit for you than GS. It is a hard decision to make, and it will require self analysis to determine just how competitive you are and if you could live with being on the general surgeon track.

Also, I'd like to add that applying to a second specialty is not the only valid backup plan. There are other options, and if you are on the cusp you should definitely have backup plans even if you are only applying to your one competitive specialty. Doing a year of paid or unpaid research can greatly improve your application for cycle two. Scrambling into a surgery prelim and reapplying with another year of clinical experience under your belt can also help.