Are non-black people from N. Africa considered URM's?

[riceman04]

OP: If you were born in Africa, regardless of your 'color', I say you should be allowed to check the box 'African American', but only if you are now an American citizen. If you are not an American citizen, you cannot check any box that says "American". This PC stuff is ridiculous and the double standards and double meanings of clear verbage is insane. If you fit the criteria in my first sentence, you are clearly entitled to the phrase "African American".

My $.02. Not that it's worth much... but still.

Yeah but that would be considered false identity, regardless of the fact that technically his nationality is "African-American" (please notice that I did not use the word ethnicity...there is a big diff). My nationality is American, but I am an afr. amer by ethnicity (or otherwise known as black american)

I guarantee you that person does not for a minute affiliated himself with (afr americans (think ethnicity).

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[riceman04]

Perhaps you are the one kidding me!!

Consider the following: (Check www.aamc.org for actual numbers and do your own math)


Assumptions => Black = URM; Asian = MRM (middle rep); WHite = ORM

In 2005

Race/Ethnicity: Blacks Asian White
Applied: 2908 7396 23425
Matriculated: 1103 3349 11119

%chance of
gettin in: 38% 45% 48%


Heres another:
Assumption => Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)

In 2005

Status: URM Non_URM Total
Applied: 6543 30821
Matriculated: 2536 14468 17004

%chance of
gettin in: 39% 47%


Matriculated URM = 15%
Matriculated Non_URM = 85%


Clearly an applicant still has a better chance of getting in if they are in the Non-URM category. So im not sure where the preferential treatment is. SO you see the world hasn't gone crazy - it is still good to be Non_URM when it comes to applying to med school.




Well If they applied to the schools you mentioned they might not be rejected. These schools are not just URM. There are also NOn-URMs that attend so not sure what the argument is there.

Ok now im done indulging - back to work for me, then its beer time and ladies and everything done on a Friday night.

Have a great weekend peeps!!

yes yes

mad props!

 

[QuikClot]

not in my book
you admitted you are "non-black"....soooooooooooooooo...why would you even consider yourself as possibly being a URM?

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

 

[45408]

Race/Ethnicity: Blacks Asian White
Applied: 2908 7396 23425
Matriculated: 1103 3349 11119

%chance of
gettin in: 38% 45% 48%

These numbers are worthless without also seeing the average MCAT/GPA/ECs associated with each of these.

 

[Rafa]

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

Don't be silly Everyone on these boards knows that Af-Ams aren't the only folks considered underrepresented in medicine. However, this thread (as indicated by the title, and by the original post of the thread starter), has to do with black people, and what it means for someone from Africa to ID himself/herself as 'black' or 'African-American' on the AMCAS application. If you'd like to start threads about whether non-hispanic people are considered URMs, you're welcome to do so - and no one will insult your intelligence by implying you thought only Hispanic people were underrepresented in medicine. No need for semantics here

Good comments, riceman04.

 

[Rafa]

These numbers are worthless without also seeing the average MCAT/GPA/ECs associated with each of these.

I don't know - what about the "numbers" people use to 'prove' that sub-par URMs get into schools more easily than sub-par nonURMs? I challenge you to find a set of statistics on AMCAS that compares the extra-curicullars or socioeconomic backgrounds of applicants (minorities or otherwise), and still suggests URMs have significant advantages over non-URMs. You might have a hard time finding such statistics because, to be honest, they don't exist.

Edit:

They don't exist because there is more to whether an applicant gets into a particular medical school than his/her race, MCAT score, and GPA. How exactly do you determine that, although ten URMs had lower MCATs and GPAs than ten non-URMs, the URMs didn't have better essays? More diverse extra-curicculars? More diverse/challenging life experiences?
You can't. You're not an adcom, and I suspect if you were, you wouldn't see the issue as such a black and white one (you the general you). MCAT and GPA charts are easy to make. They don't take time, and they reduce people to numbers, which seems to be what people who are vehemently anti-AA want the game to be settled down to. But people aren't machines. Robots don't make good doctors. Admissions committees realize this, which is why they look for applicants who bring a number of qualities *unrelated* to MCAT or GPA scores to their particular schools. If you think (general you) the only thing keeping you out of medical school is some checked box on the AMCAS application, then it suggests that you don't have much faith in the rest of your application, or in your ability to represent yourself as more than a set of numbers, but as a warm, living, breathing, compassionate human being.

Sure, there are URMs who take unfair advantage of the system. But I'd wager that the majority of people who actually *are* underrepresented minorities *aren't* fabulously wealthy kids from fabulously educated families. This myth of the super-rich URM who evilly checks the race box and takes *your* spots at *your* schools is just that -- a myth. A boogeyman. A scapegoat. But it always comes around when this argument/debate is raised. It's like complaining about hypothetical/assumed advantages is more fun than actually taking the steps to make yourself as strong of an applicant as you can possibly be. I dunno....

Point is, statistics are subjective (as you know). But if you're going to declare these stats meaningless for lacking certain bits of information, then when stats are presented to support opposing positions, you've got to be willing to hold those statistics to the same standards as you're holding these ones to.

 

[riceman04]

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

With what other URM grp would he identify?
Wow...before you make bold ass statements you should reread what was stated.

 

[gostudy]

I don't know - what about the "numbers" people use to 'prove' that sub-par URMs get into schools more easily than sub-par nonURMs? I challenge you to find a set of statistics on AMCAS that compares the extra-curicullars or socioeconomic backgrounds of applicants (minorities or otherwise), and still suggests URMs have significant advantages over non-URMs. You might have a hard time finding such statistics because, to be honest, they don't exist.

Edit:

They don't exist because there is more to whether an applicant gets into a particular medical school than his/her race, MCAT score, and GPA. How exactly do you determine that, although ten URMs had lower MCATs and GPAs than ten non-URMs, the URMs didn't have better essays? More diverse extra-curicculars? More diverse/challenging life experiences?
You can't. You're not an adcom, and I suspect if you were, you wouldn't see the issue as such a black and white one (you the general you). MCAT and GPA charts are easy to make. They don't take time, and they reduce people to numbers, which seems to be what people who are vehemently anti-AA want the game to be settled down to. But people aren't machines. Robots don't make good doctors. Admissions committees realize this, which is why they look for applicants who bring a number of qualities *unrelated* to MCAT or GPA scores to their particular schools. If you think (general you) the only thing keeping you out of medical school is some checked box on the AMCAS application, then it suggests that you don't have much faith in the rest of your application, or in your ability to represent yourself as more than a set of numbers, but as a warm, living, breathing, compassionate human being.

Sure, there are URMs who take unfair advantage of the system. But I'd wager that the majority of people who actually *are* underrepresented minorities *aren't* fabulously wealthy kids from fabulously educated families. This myth of the super-rich URM who evilly checks the race box and takes *your* spots at *your* schools is just that -- a myth. A boogeyman. A scapegoat. But it always comes around when this argument/debate is raised. It's like complaining about hypothetical/assumed advantages is more fun than actually taking the steps to make yourself as strong of an applicant as you can possibly be. I dunno....

Point is, statistics are subjective (as you know). But if you're going to declare these stats meaningless for lacking certain bits of information, then when stats are presented to support opposing positions, you've got to be willing to hold those statistics to the same standards as you're holding these ones to.

Rafa, one of the most intelligent, well thought out posts I have read in a while. I commend you!

 

[riceman04]

Are you kidding? Do you think that black people are the only racial minorities that are underrepresented in medicine? Get some education on these issues; you're embarassing yourself.

Let me help you understand the specificity of this conversation...I will hold your hand so you dont miss a ste ok

Ok so here is what he said: "I am from the African continent, and I was wondering would I have the benefits of being classified as URM?"

Now, being that he is talking about URM's we have to rule out the possibility that he is an Afrikaan (assuming he is refering to ethnicity)...you understand?...lets keep going

Ok so now with what other URM group would you think this person is attempting to affiliate if he states he is from North Africa and does not suggest in any way that he is Latino/Hispanic, Native American, or Pacific Islander?

Now do you understand where I was coming from when I made that statement?

Next time...try that reasoning before you make such statements about me and my education.

 

[Jaykms]

Edit: removed my post because I don't want to get into an argument

 

[ShyRem]

Ok. I have a TOTALLY sincere question. How come the word 'negro' is frowned upon in our society anymore? Isn't there the United Negro College Fund? And several other organizations for the promotion and benefit of those darker-skinned than us folk who burn in 10 minutes even with sunscreen that have the word 'Negro' in them? Honestly, when did we go from a race to a color to a heritage for pc? And how are we supposed to know what is the best way to describe a race or color or heritage or nationality or ethnicity or whateveryouwanttocallitthesedays when older terms are still used by well-respected organizations?

Truly... I can't keep it all straight anymore.

Honestly, this isn't meant to inflame.. it's a honest question. Kindof like the do non-(caucasian/white/pigment-deficient) people get sunburned? (I have heard they do, I just never knew). These are things no one really talks about.

 

[riceman04]

Edit: removed my post because I don't want to get into an argument

no post it...might as well...no hard feelings if it towards me.

 

[Rafa]

Rafa, one of the most intelligent, well thought out posts I have read in a while. I commend you!

Thanks, gostudy. If only I could spend time formulating thoughts for school-related homework though

 

[Jaykms]

no post it...might as well...no hard feelings if it towards me.

don't worry about it, it wasn't towards you

What I was going to say is- If people stopped worrying so much about AA, URMs and all that and focused on working on their applications instead, they'd be better off.

 

[riceman04]

Ok. I have a TOTALLY sincere question. How come the word 'negro' is frowned upon in our society anymore? Isn't there the United Negro College Fund? And several other organizations for the promotion and benefit of those darker-skinned than us folk who burn in 10 minutes even with sunscreen that have the word 'Negro' in them? Honestly, when did we go from a race to a color to a heritage for pc? And how are we supposed to know what is the best way to describe a race or color or heritage or nationality or ethnicity or whateveryouwanttocallitthesedays when older terms are still used by well-respected organizations?

Truly... I can't keep it all straight anymore.

Honestly, this isn't meant to inflame.. it's a honest question. Kindof like the do non-(caucasian/white/pigment-deficient) people get sunburned? (I have heard they do, I just never knew). These are things no one really talks about.

Understood!!! What you ask about the UNCF is a valid question.
I personally do not like the word Negro b/c of its affiliations with a pretty disgraceful past. The UNCF (i am pretty sure) was established during that time too. And just for tradition sake, I guess the name has not been changed.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

wow AA is a hot button issue on these thread lol. Technically you are "african-american" but you are not under-rep thus, checking the box will not be of any benefit. If you try to get a tan go in with a "big-momma" type constume it might cost you if they figure it out... but if not....

 

[Orth2006]

These numbers are worthless without also seeing the average MCAT/GPA/ECs associated with each of these.

Are they really worthless?

Ok assume average URM MCAT/GPA is 23/3.2 and average ORM MCAT/GPA is 28/3.5. ECs for this purpose will be same for both. It is still clear that a sub-par Non-URM stands a better chance of acceptance than a sub_par URM 47% to 39%. Those numbers don't lie. Are there some Non_URMs with a 23/32 that get in? Yes - not many though but some do. Are there some URMs with 28/3.5 that dont get in? Yes and the point is no particular group of applicants are unduly favored on the basis of race.

Don't get too caught up on Stats and forget that Personal essay, interview, maturity amongst other things also count for something.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

Sure, there are URMs who take unfair advantage of the system. But I'd wager that the majority of people who actually *are* underrepresented minorities *aren't* fabulously wealthy kids from fabulously educated families. This myth of the super-rich URM who evilly checks the race box and takes *your* spots at *your* schools is just that -- a myth. A boogeyman. A scapegoat. But it always comes around when this argument/debate is raised. It's like complaining about hypothetical/assumed advantages is more fun than actually taking the steps to make yourself as strong of an applicant as you can possibly be. I dunno....

I understand the point you are trying to make about this URM "boogeyman," and while he certainly does exist, I agree that this example is often overused in the URM debate. However, the whole point of offering a URM status is to give some sort of preferrential treatment to underrepresented minorities. If people weren't compensated for poorer stats by checking the box, then why would they do so, in fact, why would there be a box?


You can't argue that URMs with slighly lower stats don't benefit from having URM status. And, I feel that any advantage given based on racial grounds, no matter how small, is wrong. These debates are so stupid...but since I've started...

1. Anyone who has made it to a large university and has completed a bachelor's degree is no longer in a racially disadvantaged position. (Unless you actively experience discrimination in school, which, at least in California, is pretty unheard of, especially in large science classes with upwards of 200 students) In other words, there is no reason why race itself can justify a poor GPA or MCAT. Granted, I can see how coming from a poor background might make the transition to college harder...but this is a socioeconomic factor, not a racial issue.

side- this is normally the part where pro-URM/AA people start saying how no white person would ever trade to be a URM and how the majority can never truly see discrimination, etc, etc....but I'm talking about grades and standardized tests, not life.

2. Is having a diverse, "representative" population of doctors as important as having fully-qualified ones? This argument generally ends with someone saying, "Anyone who made it through pre-reqs and passed the MCAT, graduated med school and passed the boards is qualified in my book." I don't want to get into why that argument sucks, mostly because if you agree with that you probably won't change your mind..... Granted, you might feel that having a diverse population is more important than being "fair" to all the applicants, so it's a question of values I suppose.

3. Lastly, what about the URM's that are competitive applicants and have to deal with this stigma their entire lives? Furthermore, does having "solutions" like the URM box really fix our societal problems? Will minorities become dependent on these advantages? (I'm not trying to sound like a prick, but I'm a psychology major and am well aware of the honest pros and cons of having things "handed" to you.) Does AA/URM status merely mask the real problems, allowing us to dismiss things like how aweful our public education system is?...after all, look at all the Black/Hispanic/etc doctors!

Anyway, I hope that someday I have to explain to my kids how crazy America used to be and how when Daddy was young, schools actually weighted student applications based on the color of people's skin...can you believe that? My ending point; if you don't see that something is fundamentally wrong here you are either a) ignorant or b) benefiting from the system.. I certainly don't blame anyone for doing this, I wish I had a box to check, but at least have the balls to admit how stupid it is...

 

[bon_vivant]

Clearly an applicant still has a better chance of getting in if they are in the Non-URM category. So im not sure where the preferential treatment is. SO you see the world hasn't gone crazy - it is still good to be Non_URM when it comes to applying to med school.

Way to artfully use those statistics. Now, come up with mean or medican MCAT scores for matriculants from all those ethnic groups and maybe I'll believe you.

Well If they applied to the schools you mentioned they might not be rejected. These schools are not just URM. There are also NOn-URMs that attend so not sure what the argument is there.

You know as well as I do that those schools are overwhelmingly URM. According to MSAR (DISCLAIMER: I have a copy on my desk, I'm not so obsessed as to be running to the library every time I post), Howard's 2004-05 entering class was 83% Hispanic and Black, while Meharry was 86% Hispanic and Black. They dont call them 'historically black' medical schools for no reason.

So, just out of curiosity, if schools dont give URM any special consideration or preferential treatment, why do the even bother asking if youre applying as URM on the AMCAS? Is the question just there for decoration?

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

So, just out of curiosity, if schools dont give URM any special consideration or preferential treatment, why do the even bother asking if youre applying as URM on the AMCAS? Is the question just there for decoration?

Exactly, that argument is illogical. If you think having a URM option is a good idea, at least find a better way to justify it than arguing that it does no good...that just doesn't make sense.

 

[Virgil]

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3539

Don't know if this is real or not, but if it is...

I was suprised when I first saw this...I mean...someone getting into Harvard with a 29 MCAT and a 3.45! Oh wait...they're URM. Go figure.

 

[Zoom-Zoom]

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3539

Don't know if this is real or not, but if it is...

I was suprised when I first saw this...I mean...someone getting into Harvard with a 29 MCAT and a 3.45! Oh wait...they're URM. Go figure.

...and Columbia, and UCSF, and UCI

 

[dilated]

Way to artfully use those statistics. Now, come up with mean or medican MCAT scores for matriculants from all those ethnic groups and maybe I'll believe you.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/mcatgparaceeth.htm
Matriculants 2005
Asian average MCAT: 31.3
White average MCAT: 30.9
Black average MCAT: 25.2

pwnage

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

...and Columbia, and UCSF, and UCI

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=3952
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=1116
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=645

Don't hate the player Hate the game

 

[bon_vivant]

They don't exist because there is more to whether an applicant gets into a particular medical school than his/her race, MCAT score, and GPA. How exactly do you determine that, although ten URMs had lower MCATs and GPAs than ten non-URMs, the URMs didn't have better essays? More diverse extra-curicculars? More diverse/challenging life experiences?

Individual applicants may indeed have excellent personal statements or remarkable life experiences to compensate for subpar GPA's and MCATs. But when you look at the mean or median GPAs and MCATs, such extenuating factors get averaged out so you can look at general trends for a group. Thats kinda the point behind asking for average figures, not anecdotes about individual applicants. Just like when you look at average GPAs and MCATs for accepted applicants at various schools to help evaluate your own chances of being admitted and to compare which schools are numerically more or less difficult to get into. I'm sure Wash U accepts plenty of people with GPA's and MCATs significantly lower than the median, but that doesnt mean that the median value isnt a useful tool for looking at the admissions process at that school.

Now, unless you want to claim something totally ridiculous, like all URMs write kick ass personal statements, or all URMs have amazing extracurriculars, your claim is null.

PS, apparently the figures do exist. See above.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Individual applicants may indeed have excellent personal statements or remarkable life experiences to compensate for subpar GPA's and MCATs. But when you look at the mean or median GPAs and MCATs, such extenuating factors get averaged out so you can look at general trends for a group. Thats kinda the point behind asking for average figures, not anecdotes about individual applicants. Just like when you look at average GPAs and MCATs for accepted applicants at various schools to help evaluate your own chances of being admitted and to compare which schools are numerically more or less difficult to get into. I'm sure Wash U accepts plenty of people with GPA's and MCATs significantly lower than the median, but that doesnt mean that the median value isnt a useful tool for looking at the admissions process at that school.

Now, unless you want to claim something totally ridiculous, like all URMs write kick ass personal statements, or all URMs have amazing extracurriculars, your claim is null.

PS, apparently the figures do exist. See above.

stop hating remember that 42 percent of URM's go to a historically black medical school thus, why are you complaining???

 

[bon_vivant]

stop hating remember that 42 percent of URM's go to a historically black medical school thus, why are you complaining???

I'm not complaining. I just think we should call a spade a spade. URMs are shown preferential treatment in the admissions process. Thats all I'm trying to say.

 

[Dr.Pdizzle]

I understand the point you are trying to make about this URM "boogeyman," and while he certainly does exist, I agree that this example is often overused in the URM debate. However, the whole point of offering a URM status is to give some sort of preferrential treatment to underrepresented minorities. If people weren't compensated for poorer stats by checking the box, then why would they do so, in fact, why would there be a box?


You can't argue that URMs with slighly lower stats don't benefit from having URM status. And, I feel that any advantage given based on racial grounds, no matter how small, is wrong. These debates are so stupid...but since I've started...

1. Anyone who has made it to a large university and has completed a bachelor's degree is no longer in a racially disadvantaged position. (Unless you actively experience discrimination in school, which, at least in California, is pretty unheard of, especially in large science classes with upwards of 200 students) In other words, there is no reason why race itself can justify a poor GPA or MCAT. Granted, I can see how coming from a poor background might make the transition to college harder...but this is a socioeconomic factor, not a racial issue.

side- this is normally the part where pro-URM/AA people start saying how no white person would ever trade to be a URM and how the majority can never truly see discrimination, etc, etc....but I'm talking about grades and standardized tests, not life.

2. Is having a diverse, "representative" population of doctors as important as having fully-qualified ones? This argument generally ends with someone saying, "Anyone who made it through pre-reqs and passed the MCAT, graduated med school and passed the boards is qualified in my book." I don't want to get into why that argument sucks, mostly because if you agree with that you probably won't change your mind..... Granted, you might feel that having a diverse population is more important than being "fair" to all the applicants, so it's a question of values I suppose.

3. Lastly, what about the URM's that are competitive applicants and have to deal with this stigma their entire lives? Furthermore, does having "solutions" like the URM box really fix our societal problems? Will minorities become dependent on these advantages? (I'm not trying to sound like a prick, but I'm a psychology major and am well aware of the honest pros and cons of having things "handed" to you.) Does AA/URM status merely mask the real problems, allowing us to dismiss things like how aweful our public education system is?...after all, look at all the Black/Hispanic/etc doctors!

Anyway, I hope that someday I have to explain to my kids how crazy America used to be and how when Daddy was young, schools actually weighted student applications based on the color of people's skin...can you believe that? My ending point; if you don't see that something is fundamentally wrong here you are either a) ignorant or b) benefiting from the system.. I certainly don't blame anyone for doing this, I wish I had a box to check, but at least have the balls to admit how stupid it is...

this needs quoted for emphasis

Stuff like AA just keeps racism alive...and I don't mean that in the sense of "reverse racism" necessarily. I mean it in the sense that if you keep making race an issue it will always be an issue. Huh???


Ex:
1) Stuff like AA pisses off a lot of people
2) those people form opinions, those opinions are generally not rosy
3) their opinions get passed down to friends and family
4) the cycle continues

(this cycle goes both ways and can obviously be applied to more than just AA, just an example )

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

I'm not complaining. I just think we should call a spade a spade. URMs are shown preferential treatment in the admissions process. Thats all I'm trying to say.

yes they are given preferential treatment and are prob. put in a different pile. I feel it is wrong to say they are the only ones that get in with "low stats" b/c if you look on mdapps there are many non-urms with "low stats that still get in. Also, some of the URMS have stats that match the school they got into...

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

this needs quoted for emphasis

Stuff like AA just keeps racism alive...and I don't mean that in the sense of "reverse racism" necessarily. I mean it in the sense that if you keep making race an issue it will always be an issue. Huh???


Ex:
1) Stuff like AA pisses off a lot of people
2) those people form opinions, those opinions are generally not rosy
3) their opinions get passed down to friends and family
4) the cycle continues

(this cycle goes both ways and can obviously be applied to more than just AA, just an example )

Who cares what others think?? most of the URMS that got this far did so b/c they ignored what others said...

 

[riceman04]

I understand the point you are trying to make about this URM "boogeyman," and while he certainly does exist, I agree that this example is often overused in the URM debate. However, the whole point of offering a URM status is to give some sort of preferrential treatment to underrepresented minorities. If people weren't compensated for poorer stats by checking the box, then why would they do so, in fact, why would there be a box?


You can't argue that URMs with slighly lower stats don't benefit from having URM status. And, I feel that any advantage given based on racial grounds, no matter how small, is wrong. These debates are so stupid...but since I've started...

1. Anyone who has made it to a large university and has completed a bachelor's degree is no longer in a racially disadvantaged position. (Unless you actively experience discrimination in school, which, at least in California, is pretty unheard of, especially in large science classes with upwards of 200 students) In other words, there is no reason why race itself can justify a poor GPA or MCAT. Granted, I can see how coming from a poor background might make the transition to college harder...but this is a socioeconomic factor, not a racial issue.

side- this is normally the part where pro-URM/AA people start saying how no white person would ever trade to be a URM and how the majority can never truly see discrimination, etc, etc....but I'm talking about grades and standardized tests, not life.

2. Is having a diverse, "representative" population of doctors as important as having fully-qualified ones? This argument generally ends with someone saying, "Anyone who made it through pre-reqs and passed the MCAT, graduated med school and passed the boards is qualified in my book." I don't want to get into why that argument sucks, mostly because if you agree with that you probably won't change your mind..... Granted, you might feel that having a diverse population is more important than being "fair" to all the applicants, so it's a question of values I suppose.

3. Lastly, what about the URM's that are competitive applicants and have to deal with this stigma their entire lives? Furthermore, does having "solutions" like the URM box really fix our societal problems? Will minorities become dependent on these advantages? (I'm not trying to sound like a prick, but I'm a psychology major and am well aware of the honest pros and cons of having things "handed" to you.) Does AA/URM status merely mask the real problems, allowing us to dismiss things like how aweful our public education system is?...after all, look at all the Black/Hispanic/etc doctors!

Anyway, I hope that someday I have to explain to my kids how crazy America used to be and how when Daddy was young, schools actually weighted student applications based on the color of people's skin...can you believe that? My ending point; if you don't see that something is fundamentally wrong here you are either a) ignorant or b) benefiting from the system.. I certainly don't blame anyone for doing this, I wish I had a box to check, but at least have the balls to admit how stupid it is...

Wow!!! based on this post and ones below it, you almost sound bitter.

1. the purpose for actively recruiting URM's is to account for exactly what they are in healthcare: "underrepresented". Application numbers speak for themselves. Why is it that so few URM's are applying to med school relative to ORM's? The gap has to be filled somewhere.

2. How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question).

3. why dont you want to get into your second argument. I would like to hear what you have to say b/c "qualified", to me, is not solely defined by stats achieved as an undergrad. One can great stats that "qualify" him/her for med school, but that means **** when we are talking about the overall abilities. I think you are kind of limiting people to numbers. So for that reason please explain your second argument.

4. The stigma to which you refer is much more deeply rooted in overall societal issues than in some rinky dink attempt by AMA to incre. URM presence in healthcare....but like you in your other post, I will not discuss that argument right now.

5. AA/URM...whatever you want to call it, does not come close to rectifying or even masking the problems that exist within our society. I was a psyc major too in undergrad. You have to consider the situation when you apply specific theories.


We can get into theories about stereotyped threat, perceived treats, diffused responsibility, etc...., but it would not be of any help.

I challenge you to come up with what you think a fair application system would involve and consider.

Present something...I will be happy to read it and find all the loopholes within your system.

 

[bon_vivant]

yes they are given preferential treatment and are prob. put in a different pile. I feel it is wrong to say they are the only ones that get in with "low stats" b/c if you look on mdapps there are many non-urms with "low stats that still get in. Also, some of the URMS have stats that match the school they got into...

Agreed. I'm sure there are URM applicants who have excellent stats that are very much in line with the averages at the schools that admit them.

But people on this thread have been trying to claim that URM status does not amount to preferntial treatment, and thats just plain wrong. I'm not even discussing my opinions on AA...I'm just pointing out some very obvious notions that people seem to be having some trouble grasping.

 

[Dr.Pdizzle]

Who cares what others think?? most of the URMS that got this far did so b/c they ignored what others said...

I'm not saying you should care what others think. I'm just shedding some light on an example as to why their will always be racism. It's nothing real profound, I know. IMO, things like AA encourage racist thinking both ways.

 

[jbone]

Damn, every posts in here is FREAKIN LONG!!
We like pictures and crayon drawings.

 

[riceman04]

I'm not saying you should care what others think. I'm just shedding some light on an example as to why their will always be racism. It's nothing real profound, I know. IMO, things like AA encourage racist thinking both ways.

hmmm...that says alot about us as humans doesn't it?

 

[bon_vivant]

As far as Ricemans post is concerned: I agree, its important to educate physcians who will work in underserved areas. Which is why I think that any systems of preferential admissions in place should be based exclusively on socioeconmic status rather than race. Recruit students from poor, underserved areas, give them preferential treatment in the admissions procees, offer them scholarships to help finance their educations...I think that would be great. But singling out particular racial and ethnic groups, as if they alone have monopolized the concept of discrimination? That I dont agree with. At least let all disadvantaged applicants apply on equal footing.

 

[Dr.Pdizzle]

hmmm...that says alot about us as humans doesn't it?

Yea it really does (not in a sarcastic sense). I mean if you look throughout history, humans have always had/pursued a way to differentiate between one another. If people tried to live equally it eventually failed one way or another. If it isn't race it's class, it's religion, it's physical traits, etc. It's always something. Makes one wonder if something like racism can ever ceast to exist or if it would just transform into another method of discrimination.


PS: my statement also suggests that after midnight my grammar goes to hell..."their" etc. o well u get the idea

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

As far as Ricemans post is concerned: I agree, its important to educate physcians who will work in underserved areas. Which is why I think that any systems of preferential admissions in place should be based exclusively on socioeconmic status rather than race. Recruit students from poor, underserved areas, give them preferential treatment in the admissions procees, offer them scholarships to help finance their educations...I think that would be great. But singling out particular racial and ethnic groups, as if they alone have monopolized the concept of discrimination? That I dont agree with. At least let all disadvantaged applicants apply on equal footing.

I think it has been proven that URMs, regardless of socio-economic status tend to serve their people.

 

[riceman04]

Yea it really does (not in a sarcastic sense). I mean if you look throughout history, humans have always had/pursued a way to differentiate between one another. If people tried to live equally it eventually failed one way or another. If it isn't race it's class, it's religion, it's physical traits, etc. It's always something. Makes one wonder if something like racism can ever ceast to exist or if it would just transform into another method of discrimination.


PS: my statement also suggests that after midnight my grammar goes to hell..."their" etc. o well u get the idea

completely agree!

 

[bon_vivant]

I think it has been proven that URMs, regardless of socio-economic status tend to serve their people.

Sure, but that doesnt change the fact that I dont think the system should be based on race. I'm sure if you look at people from disadvantaged backgrounds in general you'd notice a similar trend.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Sure, but that doesnt change the fact that I dont think the system should be based on race. I'm sure if you look at people from disadvantaged backgrounds in general you'd notice a similar trend.

does it bother you that only 1000 black people get in every year w/ preferential treatment?? would you be bothered if you knew that only 600 would get in w/o it??

 

[Pewl]

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P

 

[riceman04]

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P

 

[Virgil]

I find it entertaining that no affirmative action advocate is willing to account for URMs with 3.45's and 29 MCATs getting into Harvard.

Sure, the notion of a nation of ethnically diverse nation of doctors is noble and all, but such a state of affairs is futile. Ortho2006, ironically in his argument for affirmative action, claims that 6543 URM applicants and a whopping 30821 non-URM applicants applied in 2005 (under his "Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)" assumption). There's going to be disproportionately more non-URM doctors in the end anyway. What gap?

"How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question)."

I'll answer your question with another question. How likely is it that a URM, who allegedly came out of such an area in the first place, be able to afford paying undergrad tuition, textbooks, test preparation and application fees/interview expenses (along with other miscellaneous living expenses), medical school, spend a few years in residency, become a practicioner in what is generally the highest paid career in the nation (medicine), only to come back in the slums which made him/her "disadvantaged" in the first place? I doubt that any doctor, or anyone who has been through an equally as grueling a process, would revel in coming back to the slums. I personally don't like getting robbed (because I'm a 'rich' doctor) or becoming a victim in gang warfare, especially after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in my education.

And besides, being a URM doesn't automatically mean that you come from a place like Compton. In fact, I'm sure that this ignorant assumption is viewed as an insult by many URMs. If any consideration should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic factors alone.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P

thank you

 

[jbone]

Once again, I am reminded of this slogan. =P

OH NO!! . You did it pewl. Now people will start arguing about ******ed people and how many of them get "special" treatment and get into medical school with low stats.
It's helping me as we speak.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

I find it entertaining that no affirmative action advocate is willing to account for URMs with 3.45's and 29 MCATs getting into Harvard.

Sure, the notion of a nation of ethnically diverse nation of doctors is noble and all, but such a state of affairs is futile. Ortho2006, ironically in his argument for affirmative action, claims that 6543 URM applicants and a whopping 30821 non-URM applicants applied in 2005 (under his "Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)" assumption). There's going to be disproportionately more non-URM doctors in the end anyway. What gap?

"How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question)."

I'll answer your question with another question. How likely is it that a URM, who allegedly came out of such an area in the first place, be able to afford paying undergrad tuition, textbooks, test preparation and application fees/interview expenses (along with other miscellaneous living expenses), medical school, spend a few years in residency, become a practicioner in what is generally the highest paid career in the nation (medicine), only to come back in the slums which made him/her "disadvantaged" in the first place? I doubt that any doctor, or anyone who has been through an equally as grueling a process, would revel in coming back to the slums. I personally don't like getting robbed (because I'm a 'rich' doctor) or becoming a victim in gang warfare, especially after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in my education.

And besides, being a URM doesn't automatically mean that you come from a place like Compton. In fact, I'm sure that this ignorant assumption is viewed as an insult by many URMs. If any consideration should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic factors alone.

did you see my post where I listed 3 non urms who got into hopkins with similar stats?? what is your responce to that??

 

[bon_vivant]

OH NO!! . You did it pewl. Now people will start arguing about ******ed people and how many of them get "special" treatment and get into medical school with low stats.
It's helping me as we speak.

Haha...well, we need physicians to serve the mentally handicapped...how else are we going to fulfill that need unless we recruit from specifically within that community?

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

Haha...well, we need physicians to serve the mentally handicapped...how else are we going to fulfill that need unless we recruit from specifically within that community?

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh now I see why they gave you a boost...

 

[riceman04]

I find it entertaining that no affirmative action advocate is willing to account for URMs with 3.45's and 29 MCATs getting into Harvard.

Sure, the notion of a nation of ethnically diverse nation of doctors is noble and all, but such a state of affairs is futile. Ortho2006, ironically in his argument for affirmative action, claims that 6543 URM applicants and a whopping 30821 non-URM applicants applied in 2005 (under his "Black + all others = URM; Asian + White = ORM (Non-URM)" assumption). There's going to be disproportionately more non-URM doctors in the end anyway. What gap?

"How likely is it that you will be willing to travel to Compton to King Drew to practice? It is definitely not likely...why is that? (I'll let you and the others answer that question)."

I'll answer your question with another question. How likely is it that a URM, who allegedly came out of such an area in the first place, be able to afford paying undergrad tuition, textbooks, test preparation and application fees/interview expenses (along with other miscellaneous living expenses), medical school, spend a few years in residency, become a practicioner in what is generally the highest paid career in the nation (medicine), only to come back in the slums which made him/her "disadvantaged" in the first place? I doubt that any doctor, or anyone who has been through an equally as grueling a process, would revel in coming back to the slums. I personally don't like getting robbed (because I'm a 'rich' doctor) or becoming a victim in gang warfare, especially after investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in my education.

And besides, being a URM doesn't automatically mean that you come from a place like Compton. In fact, I'm sure that this ignorant assumption is viewed as an insult by many URMs. If any consideration should be given, it should be based on socioeconomic factors alone.

here is the point, regardeless of whether or not you view what I said as ignorant (I dont quite understand the personal attacks): You find a higher percentage of URM's in these areas that you find of ORM's.

You would be surprised by the number of URM's who are actually willing to work in these neighborhoods, although they are fully aware that they will not be compensated as highly (and will still have a signif amt of debt for a longer period of time).

Being that I did not grow up in the hood (and am an afr. amer), I guess I should take offense to my own statement, right?