Are people getting the "do you have/plan to have kids" question?

[pingumd]

Had the first experience of this and wonder if others are getting this too?
I just answered the question (yes) since I did want to rank the program and didn't want to be evasive/dishonest but am now wondering if this is going to hurt my placement on their rank list.

Any ideas for what to say in the future without being dishonest?

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[TexasPhysician]

I would think having children wouldn't be as big of an issue in psychiatry as something like surgery. They are probably just trying to figure out the type of person you are. I would be honest.....but I'm also a male.....so take it for what its worth.

 

[countryboy75]

I have been asked this at every interview and it didn't really bother me.

However, it is illegal to ask this question to any sort of job applicant. I remember this from my business law class in undergrad.

 

[atsai3]

Had the first experience of this and wonder if others are getting this too?
I just answered the question (yes) since I did want to rank the program and didn't want to be evasive/dishonest but am now wondering if this is going to hurt my placement on their rank list.

Any ideas for what to say in the future without being dishonest?

Just answer the question honestly. Not all interview questions are asked with malicious intent.

-AT.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Just answer the question honestly. Not all interview questions are asked with malicious intent.

-AT.

I usually say "I'm not supposed to ask you about this, but if you have any questions about local resources for your spouse or kids, I'd love to tell you about them." Just try some way to communicate that quality of life for families is great in our area, and that I'd love to talk about it if they want to, but that it's not part of the evaluation process for them.

 

[whopper]

If someone asked this question and I were a female, without knowing the context of their question, I would have reason to suspect there may be some inappropriateness about it.

Some programs without saying it don't want their residents getting pregnant because then they have to let that person take some time off, and there'll be an extra layer of complication when arranging that resident's call schedule.

(After all who's going to do the scutwork? Surely not an attending!)

I would say this is the minority of psychiatry programs, and its far worse in the other fields. In fact its to the point where if it were asked, I'd wager the interviewer is just trying to get to know the candidate better. I can also think of several attendings I've had who asked something similar, but only with the intention using the question as an icebreaker to tell the candidate about the family friendliness of the program.

If you wanted to be defensive, yet at the same time polite, you could answer something which is honest for most people. "I would like to have children in the future, but I don't have any immediate plans for now, and I realize I need to balance my professional life with my personal life."

 

[gaccboom]

I have gotten asked this question, but usually in the negative (because I'm male?): "You don't have kids, do you?" And I tell them that, yes, I do. I've found that most places are actually very happy to talk about family life once I mention that I've got a kid. As others have observed, it's something low-stress to talk about while getting to know me beyond the academics. I've never had a negative reaction to the topic of children, regardless of whether they've asked me about it or I've just brought it up myself.

 

[trophyhusband]

My wife has been asked this question multiple times and yes it is an illegal question to ask (there are legal ways to ask it but none of the programs have asked it that way). But family friendliness is important to us so she always responds "yes," because if they don't like it it's not somewhere we'd want to match anyway. It's funny because some of the programs quickly respond with "good because we're super family friendly." Which certainly gains them bonus points with us.

 

[notdeadyet]

I usually say "I'm not supposed to ask you about this, but if you have any questions about local resources for your spouse or kids, I'd love to tell you about them." Just try some way to communicate that quality of life for families is great in our area, and that I'd love to talk about it if they want to, but that it's not part of the evaluation process for them.

I like this approach. The interviewee has the option to talk about their family, but also have an easy way to decline ("I can't think of any questions about family resources right now, but thank you for offering"). Aside from being sexist and illegal, asking someone about their plans to have children is just a little rude.

Folks should remember as well though, that any topic brought up by the interviewee is then fair game and interviewers are no longer prohibited from asking questions about it.

 

[atsai3]

My wife has been asked this question multiple times and yes it is an illegal question to ask (there are legal ways to ask it but none of the programs have asked it that way). But family friendliness is important to us so she always responds "yes," because if they don't like it it's not somewhere we'd want to match anyway. It's funny because some of the programs quickly respond with "good because we're super family friendly." Which certainly gains them bonus points with us.

Another thing you can do during the interview is -- whether or not you intend to have a child -- turn it around and use it as an opportunity to further explore how the program director / program feels about pregnancy during training, or about how the program as a whole rallies around (or doesn't) residents who get sick.

e.g. "Actually I'm glad you asked -- I had a related question about how the program handles unplanned events: What has the program done in the past when a resident has become ill and has had to miss several weeks of training?"

-AT.

 

[CaptainBluebear]

Another thing you can do during the interview is -- whether or not you intend to have a child -- turn it around and use it as an opportunity to further explore how the program director / program feels about pregnancy during training, or about how the program as a whole rallies around (or doesn't) residents who get sick.

e.g. "Actually I'm glad you asked -- I had a related question about how the program handles unplanned events: What has the program done in the past when a resident has become ill and has had to miss several weeks of training?"

-AT.

That is a really good way of looking at it. Better to define how it might happen before you start work there, than have to find out when you are already committed to their program.

 

[whopper]

I recall when I was a chief resident, someone interviewed at the program who had a child with a disability. The person made it clear that she intended to work hard, but her responsibility as a single parent with a disabled child was important to her.

We did not take her, but what made me feel alright with it was no one rejected her on the basis of her child. We saw specific issues with her application and how she conducted herself during her interview.

 

[pingumd]

These are all good points and thanks for mentioning them.

I think what someone said above about if they don't take you for the way you answer the question the program is probably not for you.

After thinking about it a while I think the interviewer was not just trying to get to know me and no mention of "family friendly" or resources was made.

 

[billypilgrim37]

If someone said they wanted to a) be a child psychiatrist, or b) wanted to pursue significant dynamic training, they better well at least hope to have children (specific plans and medical issues aside), or otherwise I would at least want to know why they didn't think child-rearing was an important part of training for both of those paths.

 

[pingumd]

My application made it very clear I was interested in forensics with a bio approach.

 

[billypilgrim37]

My application made it very clear I was interested in forensics with a bio approach.

Then for the love of God don't have any kids!

 

[notdeadyet]

If someone said they wanted to a) be a child psychiatrist, or b) wanted to pursue significant dynamic training, they better well at least hope to have children (specific plans and medical issues aside), or otherwise I would at least want to know why they didn't think child-rearing was an important part of training for both of those paths.

Isn't that the same logic that says men shouldn't be OB-GYNs and the childless shouldn't be pediatricians? Not sure I buy it.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Isn't that the same logic that says men shouldn't be OB-GYNs and the childless shouldn't be pediatricians? Not sure I buy it.

It's not the same logic at all.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Isn't that the same logic that says men shouldn't be OB-GYNs and the childless shouldn't be pediatricians? Not sure I buy it.

People have all sorts of reasons for not wanting to have kids, and judging their adequacy for any profession because of it is intrusive and honestly potentially small-minded.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I am by no means the originator of the notion that two of the most important parts of dynamic therapy training are a) having therapy yourself, and b) raising children. This is a significantly different concept than having a uterus in order to be an OB/GYN, or to have children in order to understand the very coarse developmental assessments performed by pediatricians.

I am not judging them for not wanting children. I would be judging them for not being thoughtful if someone said they had no interest in having children and they were highly interested in dynamics and they had not, on their own terms, at least considered the significance of that preference.

The chances of much of this coming out in an interview are, of course, slim to none.

My point remains that programs should be extremely supportive of people who want to have children, because having children can be a very important aspect of training to be a psychiatrist.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

My point remains that programs should be extremely supportive of people who want to have children, because having children can be a very important aspect of training to be a psychiatrist.

OK. I'm done with training.

Can I give these children back now?
Sell them?

Anyone?

 

[billypilgrim37]

OK. I'm done with training.

Can I give these children back now?
Sell them?

Anyone?

Come on, OPD, you're a life long learner!

 

[Psychelle]

Are they teenagers? If so, good luck buddy.

I haven't had any questions about kids but a ton of "where else are you interviewing?" Which I've felt more or less comfortable with depending on the context/tone. I probably shouldn't answer this as honestly as I have but I'm not very good at the "vague non-answer". Perhaps I should work on this skill...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Actually this leads to another point I've discussed with a friend who is also applying in psychiatry -- how much prying do interviewers get to do just because we're applying in psychiatry? I can see wanting to assess applicants for being thoughtful and self-aware, but we're also on a job application. Is it really appropriate to dig into people's thoughts about having kids? My friend has been asked several times about her relationship with her parents which is tense and not something she wants to talk about a job interview, so consequently it sucks for her to have to navigate this question in a diplomatic and yet seemingly psychiatrically sound way.

I guess psychiatrists get so used to prying that it's hard to see when it's just flat out inappropriate.

 

[pingumd]

To me the whole interview just felt unprofessional. Fine if you want to get to know me or explain resources but to continuing prying when there are obviously complex and personal issues, it is just not cool.

I have to say I am not a fan of the psychoanalytic interview. I did not enter into a therapeutic relationship with this person and they should be able to "shut it off" and behave professionally for at least 45 min...you would think...

 

[cleareyedguy]

If someone said they wanted to a) be a child psychiatrist, or b) wanted to pursue significant dynamic training, they better well at least hope to have children (specific plans and medical issues aside), or otherwise I would at least want to know why they didn't think child-rearing was an important part of training for both of those paths....

I am by no means the originator of the notion that two of the most important parts of dynamic therapy training are a) having therapy yourself, and b) raising children.
I am not judging them for not wanting children. I would be judging them for not being thoughtful if someone said they had no interest in having children and they were highly interested in dynamics and they had not, on their own terms, at least considered the significance of that preference.

It seems to me that there are plenty of valid reasons for not having children, and many of them are as valid as the reasons for having children (half of which are unplanned and another chunk are had just because that seemed like the natural thing to do). If I were a childless single person--gay or straight--or a married person who didn't want to (or couldn't) have kids, and I sensed that someone was going to judge me or quiz me about my suitability based on whether I'd had experience raising kids, I'd be seriously offended.

 

[cleareyedguy]

... I can see wanting to assess applicants for being thoughtful and self-aware, but we're also on a job application. Is it really appropriate to dig into people's thoughts about having kids? My friend has been asked several times about her relationship with her parents which is tense and not something she wants to talk about a job interview, so consequently it sucks for her to have to navigate this question in a diplomatic and yet seemingly psychiatrically sound way.

I guess psychiatrists get so used to prying that it's hard to see when it's just flat out inappropriate.

I interview, and I don't (think I) pry, but I will float out general parental/family questions to get some taste for how well the applicant can think and present dynamic issues. If there's any resistance or puzzlement, I generally drop the topic. OTOH, if your essay talks about grandma dying or some sort of family dynamic, then you should be ready to give a seemingly-spontaneous brief explanation. It's kinda like putting down that your hobby is basketball or fencing or ancient Greek history; once you've done that, you're asking for questions.

 

[cleareyedguy]

Pregnancies and kids make it more difficult for residencies, who then have to find coverage. It inconveniences attendings, the PD, and--mostly--the other residents. It distracts from studying and working. So do relationships, weekends, hobbies, athletics. From my perspective, it's completely reasonable for the PD to kinda hope that no one ever gets pregnant while also being genuinely happy when residents have babies. Ambivalence is a lovely thing. But part of being a good psychiatrist is being aware of that ambivalence and not enacting it unprofessionally.

 

[pingumd]

I understand it would be convenient if residents didn't have kids or families, or hobbies etc. It would be more convenient to replace humans with droids that would never get H1N1 or make requests for accomodations. Lets not pit resident against resident ( "other residents have to pick up the slack"), it is the economic structure of residency programs that leaves very little "room for error" whenever residents need accomodations/time etc. Money is the bottom line and ethics goes out the door with the rationalization that "we have to do what we have to do to get by".

I also want to point out that I am male and this pregnancy thing does not just impact women. Now days in many relationships both partners work and if there are kids the husband is starting to be near as likely to need to take time off to pick the kid up from daycare etc. If a child gets very ill, few men will just "work through it" and leave the sole care of the child to an also working mother.

 

[billypilgrim37]

Obviously I've talked myself into a bit of a hole, partially from poor wording, and partially because most of my thinking on the matter stems from long conversations with particular people. My best friend in residency is strongly considering pursuing analytic training after residency. He's in his mid-30s and frequently laments that he is still single without any prospect for starting a family, because he sees child-rearing as fundamental to his training. And it's not like Gabbard et al haven't made the same point extensively. Plenty of child attendings have made similar comments to me, that their child-rearing has been more significant an experience for understanding psychodynamics than anything else they can come up with.

Clearly we all know excellent psychiatrists who are childless, but I've had conversations with several who were very thoughtful about the way their decision to not have kids effected their development as psychiatrists. I think expecting people to be thoughtful about that isn't such an offensive concept.

Grilling them in an interview about it would be woefully offensive, I certainly agree.

So forgive me some sloppy wording, and please don't label me the evil social engineer that several of you have interpreted me as being.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Obviously I've talked myself into a bit of a hole, partially from poor wording, and partially because most of my thinking on the matter stems from long conversations with particular people. My best friend in residency is strongly considering pursuing analytic training after residency. He's in his mid-30s and frequently laments that he is still single without any prospect for starting a family, because he sees child-rearing as fundamental to his training. And it's not like Gabbard et al haven't made the same point extensively. Plenty of child attendings have made similar comments to me, that their child-rearing has been more significant an experience for understanding psychodynamics than anything else they can come up with.
...

Have him PM me...I'll see if he wants to come up with some kid of leasing arrangement. Cost per unit goes down with each additional child!

 

[Fermata]

I understand why such questions should be not be asked in a job interview type environment but the discussion of children is usually polite smalltalk. My thinking is that anything you bring up is fair game for discussion and certain things should be off-limits otherwise.

 

[notdeadyet]

Clearly we all know excellent psychiatrists who are childless, but I've had conversations with several who were very thoughtful about the way their decision to not have kids effected their development as psychiatrists. I think expecting people to be thoughtful about that isn't such an offensive concept.

I agree with you here. It's always fair to expect people to be thoughtful. But keep in mind that thoughtful may lead some to the conclusion that you're wrong. Expecting folks going into Child Psych to be thoughtful about what impact not having kids will have on their abilities is valid; expecting them to agree with your conclusions is not.

Child psych is a consideration of mine and I've spoken to a few practitioners wondering how my being childless would impact that. None of them seemed to think it mattered much, though one did indicate you might have a couple of parents come out with, "You don't have kids... You don't know..." Much as I'm sure childless pediatricians hear. Or male OB-GYNs...

Grilling them in an interview about it would be woefully offensive, I certainly agree.

Amen to that. Any interviewer that grills you to see if you'll contort to meet their opinion on a subject is betraying a lot more about themselves than you.

 

[Sneezing]

I am a man, but if I were a women and was asked about my future family, I would flat out lie. I would tell them I am planning on waiting for a more stable point in my life where I would have more control and flexibility over my schedule to better raise a child. Then, after I matched at the program, I would seriously consider conceiving in the most fruitful fashion possible...

I disagree with BP's assertions about the prerequisites for being a C&A.

I have had one PD dig into my childhood and an analyst pry into me. I liked it. It gets old real fast answering: why psych, why this program, any questions for me, your strength, your weakness, what can you bring to this program... The kicker is, you just answered those exact same questions with the 4 other interviewers before you. I welcome the prying questions for the fresh change of pace. I welcome the analysts because they are trying to discern how you think and not just a mere factoid retrieval expedition.

The analyst put out the most difficult questions I have had yet. I'd like to think these difficult questions will serve to differentiate candidates better.

 

[Sneezing]

It double posted. I only clicked once.

 

[billypilgrim37]

I disagree with BP's assertions about the prerequisites for being a C&A.

My point was never that having children was a prerequisite for dynamic training or c&a. My point, though inarticulately worded, was that programs should be extremely supportive of people having children, because having children can be a very beneficial point of training.

There are many things that go into the decision to have children or not. When you're specialty is so intimately engrossed in human behavior, then the value of being exposed to the natural behavior lab of having children is high. Beneficial, but not necessary.

I'll leave it at that. I've pushed people's buttons in ways I didn't mean to.

 

[pingumd]

No hard feelings billypilgrim.
I also think it is a plus if residencies think about the whole picture (having kids, exercise) as making you a better clinician. However, sadly, MBAs are now in charge of medicine and the resident who can work the most for the least amount of money and who needs no accomodations is what programs look for (maybe not psych as much - but i did see some hair-raising inhumanity on my core rotations).

We as physicians should not abuse each other just because the powers that be encourage us to.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

The kid thing is just so sensitive and maybe us childfree folks are a little more likely to be bugged about it with the holidays approaching. Having kids is pretty much the default approach to life (not to say that those of you who have them are just doing it for that reason), but you might miss out on the fact that those of us without them get questioned about it wherever we go. It's bad enough to get it from my inlaws -- I really don't want to hear it from an interviewer. Society generally implies that we are bad, selfish people for not having kids. Consequently, hearing that maybe we're not fully qualified to be C&A psychiatrists or to do psychodynamics well (I know that's an overstatement of what was said) is upsetting.