Are Podiatry Schools increasing class size?

[GypsyHummus]

Hey everyone,

So for current students or pre-pods on the interview trail, I had a question. Are schools set to increase the class size? I know that residency placement has been increasing over the past couple of years, but there were still 50ish students that did not match into a residency in 2016, so that makes me a bit worried for the entering students. All I have heard concerning this news has been from AZPOD, which is planning on increasing class size from 30 to 40 next year, then to 50 in two years.

I think that last year applications were down, which would be good for students because that would mean more residencies. What is the current news on the residency front that you guys/gals have heard? Has the moratorium been lifted? Hopefully y'all dont get a repeat of 2012-2013 residency crisis.

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[med2345]

All the schools told me there are now more residency spots than graduates. Residency rates are over 90 percent for some schools so I’m not sure why you think there would be a crisis? I read somewhere that last year there was something like 572 spots across the US which is more than what would have graduated counting the attrition rate. Pods I’ve shadowed told me basically now you have to be dead last is the class not to score a residency spot SOMEWHERE. But that’s just what I know

 

[GypsyHummus]

From reading the match post for 2016 (I think it was under pod students forum?), there were 50ish people who did not get a residency. Now in transparency, there were people who were years out trying to get residency positions as well.

I think it is important to think about the last person in the class. Statistically speaking, someone has to be last. Are they doomed to not have a residency? At MD/DO school, they at least can match into family medicine, why is it different for Pod students?

All the schools told me there are now more residency spots than graduates. Residency rates are over 90 percent for some schools so I’m not sure why you think there would be a crisis? I read somewhere that last year there was something like 572 spots across the US which is more than what would have graduated counting the attrition rate. Pods I’ve shadowed told me basically now you have to be dead last is the class not to score a residency spot SOMEWHERE. But that’s just what I know

 

[med2345]

From reading the match post for 2016 (I think it was under pod students forum?), there were 50ish people who did not get a residency. Now in transparency, there were people who were years out trying to get residency positions as well.

I think it is important to think about the last person in the class. Statistically speaking, someone has to be last. Are they doomed to not have a residency? At MD/DO school, they at least can match into family medicine, why is it different for Pod students?

I personally know a few MDs and DOs who were not able to match into psych, FM, ect which are typically the “easier” residencies to get into. If you take the average match rates for dpm vs. do/md I’d bet a good amount of money that they are within a few percentage of eachother considering first match rates for DPM are somewhere in the mid to high 80’s for all schools..

Edit: Quick google search generally says 90 for MD and 80 for DO. Take the average it’s basically the exact same at DPM residency match

 

[GypsyHummus]

I mean after 4 years of tuition from anywhere from 60-75K/year, you would want some reassurance.

Plus, podiatry only has one specialty that they can match in.

I personally know a few MDs and DOs who were not able to match into psych, FM, ect which are typically the “easier” residencies to get into. If you take the average match rates for dpm vs. do/md I’d bet a good amount of money that they are within a few percentage of eachother considering first match rates for DPM are somewhere in the mid to high 80’s for all schools..

Edit: Quick google search generally says 90 for MD and 80 for DO. Take the average it’s basically the exact same at DPM residency match

 

[med2345]

I mean after 4 years of tuition from anywhere from 60-75K/year, you would want some reassurance.

Plus, podiatry only has one specialty that they can match in.

DO is much higher tuition normally and pod gives way more scholarships. And their match rates are lower than DPM. Sounds less reassuring IMO. But I was just answering your original question.

 

[de Ribas]

DO is much higher tuition normally and pod gives way more scholarships. And their match rates are lower than DPM. Sounds less reassuring IMO. But I was just answering your original question.

DMU DPM Match is 99% for example.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Hey everyone,

So for current students or pre-pods on the interview trail, I had a question. Are schools set to increase the class size? I know that residency placement has been increasing over the past couple of years, but there were still 50ish students that did not match into a residency in 2016, so that makes me a bit worried for the entering students. All I have heard concerning this news has been from AZPOD, which is planning on increasing class size from 30 to 40 next year, then to 50 in two years.

I think that last year applications were down, which would be good for students because that would mean more residencies. What is the current news on the residency front that you guys/gals have heard? Has the moratorium been lifted? Hopefully y'all dont get a repeat of 2012-2013 residency crisis.

Az is increasing because with only 30 they arent considered a “college.” Podiatry falls under the umbrella of The college of Biomedical Sciences so they want to increase to become their own college and have more autonomy in the school in terms of funding, etc. Idk if increasing class size will really do anything because I dont think all the schools fill their seats anyway

 

[68PGunner]

I personally know a few MDs and DOs who were not able to match into psych, FM, ect which are typically the “easier” residencies to get into. If you take the average match rates for dpm vs. do/md I’d bet a good amount of money that they are within a few percentage of eachother considering first match rates for DPM are somewhere in the mid to high 80’s for all schools..

Edit: Quick google search generally says 90 for MD and 80 for DO. Take the average it’s basically the exact same at DPM residency match

MDs and DOs don’t fail to match into FM unless you have major red flags like a year off, multiple class failures, multiple board failures, etc... the 90% and 80% statistics are for on match day. We still have SOAP which bring the number of people w/ residencies up over 90% for both MD and DO sides.

 

[de Ribas]

MDs and DOs don’t fail to match into FM unless you have major red flags like a year off, multiple class failures, multiple board failures, etc... the 90% and 80% statistics are for on match day. We still have SOAP which bring the number of people w/ residencies up over 90% for both MD and DO sides.

Even if 5% don't match, you know that about 1500 students not matched.

 

[68PGunner]

Even if 5% don't match, you know that about 1500 students not matched.

My point is that medical students DO and MD don’t care much about matching unless you have major red flags. There are plenty of FM residencies that get foreign medical graduates bc nobody want them. I and my wife know of doctors in foreign countries coming here through some work visas and are taking Step 1 and 2 in order to get a FM spot. Matching isn’t a concern.

About 7-8 years old, there were plenty of pod students not matched who were certainly not at the bottom of their class. I know bc I look into this profession myself a few years ago.

For people considering between the two professions, my advice is to go medical school DO or MD is you can. If not, podiatry is still a fine field.

 

[de Ribas]

I and my wife know of doctors in foreign countries coming here through some work visas and are taking Step 1 and 2 in order to get a FM spot. Matching isn’t a concern.

I know some too. My close friend matched into neurology. He is practicing already. These that come here match into Peds, IM, OB and other specialties as well. Which is very interesting.

 

[med2345]

MDs and DOs don’t fail to match into FM unless you have major red flags like a year off, multiple class failures, multiple board failures, etc... the 90% and 80% statistics are for on match day. We still have SOAP which bring the number of people w/ residencies up over 90% for both MD and DO sides.

Even then it still falls at a general range near podiatry which is what I originally said. Red flags or not it still does happen not counting the fact the tuition can easily be 1.5-2x that of pod.

Side note: those 50 that didn’t get into pod residencies last year are probably the same people in the bottom of the class that didn’t pass boards and maybe really aren’t ready to practice yet. Disregarding class size that like take the bottom 5 people if each of the 9 schools. That’s still very good.

Going back to the main concern of the thread there is no “crisis” or much of a concern. Just don’t be dead last in your class basically. On interview they said people still get residencies even if they didn’t pass all parts of boards yet.

 

[68PGunner]

Even then it still falls at a general range near podiatry which is what I originally said. Red flags or not it still does happen not counting the fact the tuition can easily be 1.5-2x that of pod.

Side note: those 50 that didn’t get into pod residencies last year are probably the same people in the bottom of the class that didn’t pass boards and maybe really aren’t ready to practice yet. Disregarding class size that like take the bottom 5 people if each of the 9 schools. That’s still very good.

Going back to the main concern of the thread there is no “crisis” or much of a concern. Just don’t be dead last in your class basically. On interview they said people still get residencies even if they didn’t pass all parts of boards yet.

Do whatever you want w/ your life. However, it wasn’t too long ago when an average DMU pod student is struggling to get matched to a residency. It seems like the field in general has gotten its stuff together. However, it seems that the pendulum is about to turn the other way w/ school admins looking to increase class size and thereby profit.

 

[med2345]

Do whatever you want w/ your life. However, it wasn’t too long ago when an average DMU pod student is struggling to get matched to a residency. It seems like the field in general has gotten its stuff together. However, it seems that the pendulum is about to turn the other way w/ school admins looking to increase class size and thereby profit.

It’s known the residency issue was basically completely fixed a few years ago until now. DMU had a 99 percent match rate last year. Soon (by 2020) I was told there will be more residency spots than grads to get the previous pod grads to match. It has improved greatly. And the average between the schools for matching first time is again in the high 80s.

 

[68PGunner]

It’s known the residency issue was basically completely fixed a few years ago until now. DMU had a 99 percent match rate last year. Soon (by 2020) I was told there will be more residency spots than grads to get the previous pod grads to match. It has improved greatly. And the average between the schools for matching first time is again in the high 80s.

Last msg to you bc I've better things to do with my life than arguing w/ a premed prepod or whatever:

Do your own research by looking at numbers, studies, and convos w/ people currently in the field. Never believe a thing that school admins tell you at face value. It's your future and your life. Don't be that kid who goes on sdn a couple of years from now and acts like a punk bc he or she feels being lied to.

 

[med2345]

Last msg to you bc I've better things to do with my life than arguing w/ a premed prepod or whatever:

Do your own research by looking at numbers, studies, and convos w/ people currently in the field. Never believe a thing that school admins tell you at face value. It's your future and your life. Don't be that kid who goes on sdn a couple of years from now and acts like a punk bc he or she feels being lied to.

Ok, i have done my research. If you look at CASPR you can count all of the residency spots if you’d like. 95% of all my information I’ve gathered by myself of pods I’ve shadowed. You came into the thread clearly only knowing about MD/DO and tell me to do research. Sounds hypocritical.
It’s also seems like you didn’t even take the time to read the above posts regarding class size. AZpod is the only in increasing just to get the status of a “college” yet in a previous post you say podiatry may swing negatively regarding residencies again with class sizes increasing.

If you’re curious: CASPR Directory, American Association of Colleges of Podiatric Medicine

 

[de Ribas]

Never believe a thing that school admins tell you at face value. I

MD school deans and DO deans too?

 

[GypsyHummus]

Oh yeah. At the end of the day, everyone is trying to sell you something. Quality might vary, so do the research.

Check out the thread in the Osteopathic forum talking about how the deans say the merger is a good thing. Yes, overall it is, but it also means a lot less ROADs specialties for DOs. There are trade offs to everything.

Read the Dental thread and you’ll see that the outrageous tuition is justified by the student’s perception on the field.

MD school deans and DO deans too?

 

[GypsyHummus]

It’s interesting too because a lot of residency programs require a certain GPA or class rank to even apply. So right off the bat, lower stat kids are restricted to places they can apply.

Anouther issue to ponder is, do we as a country really need more pods? Certainly in the rural areas it would be nice, but a big chunk of pods gravitate to saturated areas. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of retirement in the pod community, which is nice on one hand because you can continue to work in your old age, but bad on anouther hand because you have more old pods sticking around age 60+.

There is certainly a lot of foot problems out there, but there might not be enough to go around.

 

[de Ribas]

Oh yeah. At the end of the day, everyone is trying to sell you something. Quality might vary, so do the research.

Check out the thread in the Osteopathic forum talking about how the deans say the merger is a good thing. Yes, overall it is, but it also means a lot less ROADs specialties for DOs. There are trade offs to everything.

Read the Dental thread and you’ll see that the outrageous tuition is justified by the student’s perception on the field.

than what's the difference then? if they "lie" about their stats and facts and pods do, it's even.

 

[GypsyHummus]

The difference for pod is we need the whole story because it affects residency. There is like 1 State in the country you are allowed to practice without a residency, and a DPM without residency is worthless.

Dental schools can “get away” luring students in because they don’t have a residency. DO can get away with it because for the moment, if you are not gunning for ENT or something competitive, you can get a FM or IM residency, even at the bottom of your class.

With podiatry, 50 students not matching is a big deal, given the size of the profession. There are what, 500-600 graduating students? 50ish not matching is roughly 10%, and they are all gunning for the same residency choice.

than what's the difference then? if they "lie" about their stats and facts and pods do, it's even.

 

[de Ribas]

The difference for pod is we need the whole story because it affects residency. There is like 1 State in the country you are allowed to practice without a residency, and a DPM without residency is worthless.

Dental schools can “get away” luring students in because they don’t have a residency. DO can get away with it because for the moment, if you are not gunning for ENT or something competitive, you can get a FM or IM residency, even at the bottom of your class.

With podiatry, 50 students not matching is a big deal, given the size of the profession. There are what, 500-600 graduating students? 50ish not matching is roughly 10%, and they are all gunning for the same residency choice.

I agree.

Just today there was a post by gonnif at pre-med or pre-do that about 8% don't match. that's like 2400. and then like 30% don't match out of SOAP anyways. I guess it's mostly IMGs, but still.

 

[de Ribas]

There doesn’t seem to be a lot of retirement in the pod community, which is nice on one hand because you can continue to work in your old age, but bad on anouther hand because you have more old pods sticking around age 60+

If it is true, that pods don't retire so much, isn't it a good thing then? If podiatry is bad profession, wouldn't pods retire earlier and/or find other means for a living?
If they stay longer, I guess it could mean that pods like what they do.

 

[GypsyHummus]

It’s a very good thing as long as what happened to pharm students doesn’t happen to pods.

Pharmacy so so saturated right now 1) there was a huge growth of Pharm schools in the early to mid 2000s and 2) pharmacists don’t retire, they die. You combine that with 3)retail chains closing and it really is a disaster over there.

Same with Optometry. Except they allowed corporate take over of their profession.

I think what has kept podiatry from experiencing this (as of now) is the graduating class size is so small.

That’s why I’m a big proponent of capping class sizes across the board. Take the amount of residency spots you have, Add on 10 extra students if you must (for attrition sake) and tell schools that’s how much you can work with. Which is what I thought was happening with the moritorium. But now AZPOD is increasing class size, and I was wondering if other schools are too.

If it is true, that pods don't retire so much, isn't it a good thing then? If podiatry is bad profession, wouldn't pods retire earlier and/or find other means for a living?
If they stay longer, I guess it could mean that pods like what they do.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

I think the bigger schools will keep their size as is, at least for now. AZPOD increasing their class size for whatever reason is probably just one exception.
Because Pod is a small field (compared to MD/DO), any major change such as increasing class size or opening a new school, has to be passed and approved from elected officials from each school. And this is where politics, residency shortage, job saturation, etc play a role.

 

[68PGunner]

MD school deans and DO deans too?

Yup

They don't necessarily lie to you. However, they selectively tell you which truth that they want you to know. That's why you need to do some ground research and talk to multiple people in order to put 2 + 2 together.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Everybody, all of this information is public.

Podiatry residency placement rates for NEW GRADUATES the last few years have been in the mid to high 90s, whereas MD residency placement rates for NEW GRADUATES (from the US, not foreign) have consistently been in the mid 90s. I'm including SOAP/scramble/MPII in these numbers. A couple of cycles ago the DPM placement rate was actually higher (98%) than the MD placement rate (96%). This last cycle we were about 1% lower than theirs. So, essentially the same.

That being DPMs are in a residency crisis as much as the MDs are in a residency crisis (i.e., not in a crisis) and the DOs have it worse than that. So if you're genuinely worried about landing a residency, don't go to DO school.

Also, those MD graduates who don't match into a residency can't "just match into FM". The numbers I gave above are for the overall cycle. So about 4% of MD graduates are not placed at all and have to wait till the following cycle when they're even less likely to be placed. Not 100% of DPM graduates get residencies, but not 100% of MD graduates get residencies either. So keep it in context.

 

[NTT123]

There will be difficult for school to increase their student number.

Temple Dean Mattiacci said he had 3 great applicants with GPA 3.6-3.7 want to attend temple but their class is full. He asked the council if he can take 3 more super students, but was turn down.
More info can be found at Meet the master podcast on 10/18/2016

 

[bobtheweazel]

There will be difficult for school to increase their student number.

Temple Dean Mattiacci said he had 3 great applicants with GPA 3.6-3.7 want to attend temple but their class is full. He asked the council if he can take 3 more super students, but was turn down.
More info can be found at Meet the master podcast on 10/18/2016

But they did just essentially do away with the cap on enrollment, or at least schools will be able to ask to increase their class size like Mattiaci asked for a couple of cycles ago, which is what you're referring to.

So far the only school that's really announced that they'll be increasing class size is Midwestern, though I suspect at least Temple will be looking into it as well.

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[heybrother]

Claiming the residency crisis is over when we're barely at 1:1 is not ideal. A few years ago we had an epic blood bath in which there were more graduates than residents. It was bad. Last year wasn't that bad, but it was still ugly as hell. There's a desperation on here to be rosy. You are joining a profession that has left plenty of bodies on the side of the road. Probably some of them deserved it, but you can tell me how you like when you've matched and your classmates haven't. Additionally, I don't think the comparisons to medicine really make any sense - especially since most people on here don't understand the dynamics of MDs, DOs, Caribs/and what nots or a preliminary spot verse a categorical. Reducing all of those things down to just "they matched 96%" doesn't do it justice.

 

[GypsyHummus]

And that barely 1:1 is after attrition rates.

I believe it was 2012-2013 when the residency crisis happened. Schools would be foolish to raise the number of seats.

Why is it so hard for the organizing body to get its stuff together?

Claiming the residency crisis is over when we're barely at 1:1 is not ideal. A few years ago we had an epic blood bath in which there were more graduates than residents. It was bad. Last year wasn't that bad, but it was still ugly as hell. There's a desperation on here to be rosy. You are joining a profession that has left plenty of bodies on the side of the road. Probably some of them deserved it, but you can tell me how you like when you've matched and your classmates haven't. Additionally, I don't think the comparisons to medicine really make any sense - especially since most people on here don't understand the dynamics of MDs, DOs, Caribs/and what nots or a preliminary spot verse a categorical. Reducing all of those things down to just "they matched 96%" doesn't do it justice.

 

[de Ribas]

And that barely 1:1 is after attrition rates.

I believe it was 2012-2013 when the residency crisis happened. Schools would be foolish to raise the number of seats.

Why is it so hard for the organizing body to get its stuff together?

And what is the point of increasing the class size if around 100 students leave pod schools and do not get to residency anyways

 

[DexterMorganSK]

And that barely 1:1 is after attrition rates.

I believe it was 2012-2013 when the residency crisis happened. Schools would be foolish to raise the number of seats.

Why is it so hard for the organizing body to get its stuff together?

And what is the point of increasing the class size if around 100 students leave pod schools and do not get to residency anyways

It always is and has been about the $$$

 

[de Ribas]

It always is and has been about the $$$

You got 802 messages and 802 likes. Looks cool.

 

[RedoxRxn]

What does school increasing number of seats mean? For those entering in 2018

 

[de Ribas]

What does school increasing number of seats mean? For those entering in 2018

It means that instead of 30 students they will take 50, for example. It could mean higher chances to get accepted into that school. Potential residency problems in 4 years, if these residency spots are not added.

 

[GypsyHummus]

So there are what, 9 schools total. Lets say each school increases their class size by 11 students, that is 100 more students going into the match in 4 years.

I would be very hesitant applying to pod schools next year.

 

[RedoxRxn]

So are they increasing it this year or next year? entering 2018 or 2019

 

[GypsyHummus]

They are increasing both years.

I have a feeling that the longer you wait, the worse its going to get. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Last year seemed to be the sweet spot for applying. Apps were down and there was a moratorium on schools. The only hope is that apps continue to be down, though with the DO GPA replacement, I have a hard time believing that.

So are they increasing it this year or next year? entering 2018 or 2019

 

[de Ribas]

So are they increasing it this year or next year? entering 2018 or 2019

who they? all schools or just AZPOD?

I didn' hear about other schools.

 

[med2345]

They are increasing both years.

I have a feeling that the longer you wait, the worse its going to get. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Last year seemed to be the sweet spot for applying. Apps were down and there was a moratorium on schools. The only hope is that apps continue to be down, though with the DO GPA replacement, I have a hard time believing that.

All the schools I interviewed at told me seats would be more or less the same number, possibly less depending on the quality of students. I asked one of the deans at each school. Where are you getting your info from?

Edit: the only thing I know for sure is that in the next couple of years there will be more residency spots than graduates. And there has been a nice trend with that in the past couple of years since the incident in 2013. I think it’s absurd to say DO replacement will shift the fate of podiatry lol. If you use common sense it makes much more sense to assume that DO stats will be down across the board instead of a grade or two changing career choices for many applicants. And EVEN if that was the case, the schools aren’t going to deviate except maybe a few spots and it’ll get podiatry to be more competetive.

This entire thread is extremely hard to look at tbh

 

[Weirdy]

Only one increasing is AZPOD and that's to meet the necessary number to become their own College of Podiatry outside of the College of Health Sciences.

They intended to do that since last year.
No other school I've talked to has any plans to increase class size.

 

[bobtheweazel]

So there are what, 9 schools total. Lets say each school increases their class size by 11 students, that is 100 more students going into the match in 4 years.

I would be very hesitant applying to pod schools next year.

The whole reason they lifted the caps is because of a projected excess of residency spots in the coming years. But schools can't just increase their number of students, it has to be approved and has to be within the limits of the projected residency spots. So the overall increase won't be that drastic.

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[Cranjis McBasketball]

They are increasing both years.

I have a feeling that the longer you wait, the worse its going to get. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Last year seemed to be the sweet spot for applying. Apps were down and there was a moratorium on schools. The only hope is that apps continue to be down, though with the DO GPA replacement, I have a hard time believing that.

Apps are down this year too according to a few schools I have talked. Thats why schools are trying to accept sooner so that they get commitments, with deposits before other schools

 

[de Ribas]

Thats why schools are trying to accept sooner so that they get commitments, with deposits before other schools

how are they trying to accept sooner? It depends how many students apply and when they apply. For example, Scholl has 2 weeks to reply to an interviewed candidate. (thats what they told us on interview day).
DMU said that they always try to reply within 7-10 days. I heard back 7-8 days after.

These schools do not receive high volume of applications, so it is within their means to process apps and interviews within a week or two.

I really don't see how they are "trying" to accept more students sooner.

It's not like they have control of how many students apply and when they apply. Also, I dont feel that schools will accept candidates with very low stats just to get their seats filled. Maybe larger schools will.
BTW, DMU already accepted at least 25 people.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

how are they trying to accept sooner? It depends how many students apply and when they apply. For example, Scholl has 2 weeks to reply to an interviewed candidate. (thats what they told us on interview day).
DMU said that they always try to reply within 7-10 days. I heard back 7-8 days after.

These schools do not receive high volume of applications, so it is within their means to process apps and interviews within a week or two.

I really don't see how they are "trying" to accept more students sooner.

It's not like they have control of how many students apply and when they apply. Also, I dont feel that schools will accept candidates with very low stats just to get their seats filled. Maybe larger schools will.
BTW, DMU already accepted at least 25 people.

They accepted students sooner this year than lasy year.... because if you get an acceptance by a school in august you have a month to pay the nonrefundable deposit. Once thats paid, you are more than likely going to attend that school.... so accepting a student sooner than other schools ensures the commitment and ensures filling the seats..

 

[de Ribas]

because if you get an acceptance by a school in august

They can only accept students in August who applied before that. If I applied in October, they would not accept me in August.

What I say is that they don' have much control over how many they accept sooner. It depends when and how many people apply.

 

[Cranjis McBasketball]

They can only accept students in August who applied before that. If I applied in October, they would not accept me in August.

What I say is that they don' have much control over how many they accept sooner. It depends when and how many people apply.

Okay.... thanks for pointing out the obvious... i am going to say again, they are trying to accept students as soon as they can.

 

[IDontHaveAnyFeet]

They accepted students sooner this year than lasy year.... because if you get an acceptance by a school in august you have a month to pay the nonrefundable deposit. Once thats paid, you are more than likely going to attend that school.... so accepting a student sooner than other schools ensures the commitment and ensures filling the seats..

I shouldnt be worried about not having seats anymore though right? I applied in October and had all my interviews closer to thanks giving.