Are There Any Indians Out There? Please Respond To This Forum

[pinktooth]

Dental student

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[Athene]

Whoever was bizznitching about 'Indian's born in America' are 'backstabbing' etc., doesnt really seem to be 'socialized' too well. The social dynamics that this person mentions are seen in every ETHNIC group, however you will find a more insidious (hidden, not exposed, slow onset, creeps up on ya from nowhere) form of it in the WASPs. Dude you need to live a little. Sorry for being judgemental and presumptive but you opened the door chief. Every culture/ethnicity has their backstabbers etc and every ethnicity has their racists etc too. These are just facts of life. Indians in India are either very nice, or not. In the end, be nice and get nice back (if ya want/need it).
Cheers

WELL SAID ........Its about human nature............not a particular community....so lets face it...........good begets good......so if u suffered.....make sure u do not let somebody else suffer the same way......live and let others live is the essence.....

 

[Ajay]

How is everyone doing?

For the count...

I'm a 22 yo pre-med who just graduated from USC in southern california. I'm currently applying... I had a question for anyone who would like to respond...

As an Indian pre-med, it is often very difficult to maintain your own identity. What I mean is... I am automatically labeled as another "Indian doctor." But in reality, I have a lot of different motivations for selecting my career choice and I hate to be stereotyped as choosing something just because "I'm supposed to." Has anybody else overcome this... meaning.... what do u all do to maintain a unique identity aside from your career... lol.. maybe this is just an issue for the ABCDs!

Thanks everyone and hooray for this forum

I totally agree with you. I don't have the inclination nor the desire to tell my life story to each and every stranger I come across. Until someone gets to know me for more than 60 seconds, I'm sure they categorize me with their coloured perception of Indians.

 

[Ajay]

Any back stabbing yet? (by "fellow" indians who claim to be OH SO VERY "pro" desi..")


Since all the American desis I have encountered LOVE to backstab (and if you think I am some deranged/disgrunteled/IRRATIONAL person, go look at my other posts)

I used to be naive when I first came to US when I was 8. Throughout my adolescence and teenage years, I wanted to be with my people, until I realzied that it was my "own people" who love to backstab us.

Now, I am not a big fan of ABCDs. It's pathetic, actually.

All the other races look out for each other, and then there is us! (can you imagine--my "personal wish"--if we had the same "brotherhood" as the Jews, the blacks, and the hispanics!!)

My mom was an IMG, and when she passed her boards, she applied for a peds spot at SUNY (for privacy, I will not mention which one). The person interviewing her was a fellow desi, and my mom (fresh from India) was happy that someone that she can relate to was interviewing her too. The person tells my mom not to worry and that he/she (privacy...again) will take care of everything and gave her a good morale boosting. Although she was eventually accepted into the residency, she came to find out from a few other residents and attendings that it was the "fellow desi" that openly criticized her during the selections and blatantly told the PD NOT to accept her!! she found this out when for some odd reason, she kept on getting bad evals from 1 member of the staff (who was this guy) while getting awesome evals from the other staff.

My mother is an Associate Professor of Medicine and has published over 100 articles!! So, guess who's laughing now!?!


YOU TELL ME.....WOULD YOU TRUST "US" IF YOU WERE ME (or my mom...or my dad, for whom I have a few stories also)


And lastly, the funny thing I have seen is that the richer the ABCD, the more they love to backstab!!!


But there is some light at the end of the tunnel....I have become more cautious about trusting "us" anymore...so has my family...and I HAVE 100X MORE RESPECT AND ADMIRATION FOR THE DESI IMG, who is coming to America "bright-eyed" and eager, just like my mom was a few decades ago!

The desi IMG still loves his/her people.

I wish the same could be said about the American desis!!!!!!

I think you make some good points. For the most part, I've dissociated myself from the Indian community at large, aside from a few folk here and there. I came to Canada at a very early age much like you, but we didn't necessarily have as negative an experience with 'professional' Indians as your family has. Still, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Perhaps this generalization should encompass society at large, but I've found Indians to be terribly competitive in a negative sense, and very much focussed on the material nature of reality. I agree that aspirations and lofty goals are a positive, but when these goals hinder one's ability to be civil, the world is not made a better place. I would imagine that civility and true empathy - not the kind that is superficially displayed by answering lame roleplay questions - are of great import in a field such as Medicine. Sadly, not many Indians I know have displayed such qualities.

 

[JattMed]

Guys, guys, guys...........eventhough you may be approached or pervceived 'stereotypically' as being a doctor based on ethnicity I feel the chances of being perceived as other things are high too.
For example, you may be perceived as being a 'cab driver', a 'thug', a 'gangster', a 'terrorist', a 'falafel stand dude', etc., etc., so I think it is kind of 'high and mighty' to be assuming that 'it is soooooooo annoying that all people ever think about is a doctor when they think of you.
Now I may be wrong if what you are referring to only occurs when you are on wards, in class or wearing your stethoscope around your neck at a night club.
Don't mean to be difficult, I just wanted to clarify a few things for myself on this issue.
Message is..............is it such a difficult 'burden' to bear?
It is about time that our community gets/has a good role model or two instead of "Apu" on the Simpsons that everyone in America watches.
I remember when that first aired, all the kids were imitating "Apu's" voice, "Jess of Cooooorse bery bery goood".
I'd have less of a problem if it was a doctor with that accent-at least he isnt being viewed by mainstream America in a negative way.
Yes I know, it is only a cartoon/caricature however that is an example of covert ethnic prejudice (i.e., 'it is only a joke dude', 'jeez man it's only a cartoon take it easy'). Yadda yadda yadda

 

[Ajay]

Guys, guys, guys...........eventhough you may be approached or pervceived 'stereotypically' as being a doctor based on ethnicity I feel the chances of being perceived as other things are high too.
For example, you may be perceived as being a 'cab driver', a 'thug', a 'gangster', a 'terrorist', a 'falafel stand dude', etc., etc., so I think it is kind of 'high and mighty' to be assuming that 'it is soooooooo annoying that all people ever think about is a doctor when they think of you.
Now I may be wrong if what you are referring to only occurs when you are on wards, in class or wearing your stethoscope around your neck at a night club.
Don't mean to be difficult, I just wanted to clarify a few things for myself on this issue.
Message is..............is it such a difficult 'burden' to bear?
It is about time that our community gets/has a good role model or two instead of "Apu" on the Simpsons that everyone in America watches.
I remember when that first aired, all the kids were imitating "Apu's" voice, "Jess of Cooooorse bery bery goood".
I'd have less of a problem if it was a doctor with that accent-at least he isnt being viewed by mainstream America in a negative way.
Yes I know, it is only a cartoon/caricature however that is an example of covert ethnic prejudice (i.e., 'it is only a joke dude', 'jeez man it's only a cartoon take it easy'). Yadda yadda yadda

I think the implied context was a university setting.

 

[hypersting]

Whoever was bizznitching about 'Indian's born in America' are 'backstabbing' etc., doesnt really seem to be 'socialized' too well. The social dynamics that this person mentions are seen in every ETHNIC group, however you will find a more insidious (hidden, not exposed, slow onset, creeps up on ya from nowhere) form of it in the WASPs. Dude you need to live a little. Sorry for being judgemental and presumptive but you opened the door chief. Every culture/ethnicity has their backstabbers etc and every ethnicity has their racists etc too. These are just facts of life. Indians in India are either very nice, or not. In the end, be nice and get nice back (if ya want/need it).
Cheers

The title of the post from this message cracked me up. Thanks

 

[JattMed]

Yeah I wasnt too sure, but thanks.
I just wanted to make the point that even if you are a doctor, mainstream society will probably not see you as one outside of certain settings.

 

[JattMed]

The 'Indian Professional' stereotype died out in the 80's when a lot of family class/economic migrants started to come out to North America. Thus was born the 'Kwiki Mart', 'NYC Cabbie' stereotypes.
However I am seeing a shift towards a professional stereotype again as parents are 'grooming' their children for success and the burgeoning tech sector has attracted 'educated Indians' from abroad once again.

 

[JattMed]

I hope that the 'newer' Apnays can work hard and have their kids succeed as our parents did,no matter 'where' they come from.

I am just saying this as I have noticed that a significant number of Indian youth are getting into trouble and straying from school, sports and other things. Many are becoming punks.

Scary I sound like my dad and grandfather now.......yikes!

How many of you have ever heard the old story about how your dad/granddad had to study by lantern when the power would fail but you have it so easy and why did you only get 88% in Physics!!??

LOL I was always embarrassed about Parent-Teacher Night at school since my dad would demand why I didnt get a 100%.
However I am glad he did say silly things like that. Some kids parents wouldnt even show up......
Any similar stories?

 

[Ajay]

How many of you have ever heard the old story about how your dad/granddad had to study by lantern when the power would fail but you have it so easy and why did you only get 88% in Physics!!??

I've heard it. I have unbearable guilt for being the beneficiary of a good lightbulb.

 

[entsworld]

seriously though, keep in mind all the indians coming here legally or illegally to do the grunt work in restaurants and factories, those who are just eeking out the mere minimum wage and then complain about how you are stereotyped in a university setting --- i wouldn't exactly complain about being perceived as educated, and especially of being stereotyped as a doctor, and i would consider myself lucky to be in that university setting to begin with -- count the number of premeds viewing any of these forums at any given time and then tell me it's such a bad stereotype. i really think instead of disassociating yourself from the indian community (it's sad that people have consciously done so) that we should take advantage of the fact that we are educated to help the less fortunate members of our community. I'm not talking about the guy sitting behind you who's getting a B+ in orgo who you think will backstab you for some reason if you study with him, i'm talking about all the blue-collar workers being abused daily. Indian lawyers as a group have done a lot to give back to our community by fighting for these workers for free, and often winning the cases --- everybody here discussing this topic should take some time to find groups and such that allow health professionals to give back. There has to be a niche. Where should I start searching? I think instead of tearing ourselves apart from within, we should all band together and do something more productive.

 

[overseas]

hai to all...... i am an indian too.......a dentist
take care .......

 

[Ajay]

seriously though, keep in mind all the indians coming here legally or illegally to do the grunt work in restaurants and factories, those who are just eeking out the mere minimum wage and then complain about how you are stereotyped in a university setting --- i wouldn't exactly complain about being perceived as educated, and especially of being stereotyped as a doctor, and i would consider myself lucky to be in that university setting to begin with -- count the number of premeds viewing any of these forums at any given time and then tell me it's such a bad stereotype. i really think instead of disassociating yourself from the indian community (it's sad that people have consciously done so) that we should take advantage of the fact that we are educated to help the less fortunate members of our community. I'm not talking about the guy sitting behind you who's getting a B+ in orgo who you think will backstab you for some reason if you study with him, i'm talking about all the blue-collar workers being abused daily. Indian lawyers as a group have done a lot to give back to our community by fighting for these workers for free, and often winning the cases --- everybody here discussing this topic should take some time to find groups and such that allow health professionals to give back. There has to be a niche. Where should I start searching? I think instead of tearing ourselves apart from within, we should all band together and do something more productive.

I did not mean to imply that being stereotyped as a doctor is overly negative. Actually, my concern is similar to something you've mentioned in your post: that the majority of Indians aren't exceptionally educated - and might I add, "karmically aligned" upstanding individuals. My input on this subject is merely personal, but I've rarely heard anyone express the "cabbie" or "convenience store" sterotypes. Therefore, I always feel the need to point out that not all Indians are studious and upstanding. I extend this clarification to all racially associated sterotypes for all races.

As for helping out the downtrodden, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Yet, I would make a case for all people rather than degenerating into a worldview divided by racial and cultural lines. But assume for a minute that we concentrate solely on the Indians. In order to assist the less fortunate, one has to be in the right mindset: a mindset of nurture, empathy, understanding, and a desire to do good without consideration of personal profit. These are the qualities we should expect of our healthcare professionals. In my experience, however, a majority of Indians want to be doctors, dentists or pharmacists not because of a genuine concern for others, but because of motivations driven by such factors as familial and peer pressure, status and economic prospects. Of course, this isn't limited just to Indians; many other cultures create this sort of environment.

And might I point out that I would have just as readily dissociated myself from my native community were I born into another race. For years I have resolved to retain positive people in my life, ones with truly admirable qualities; these people come from all walks of life.

 

[JattMed]

I am not averse to helping a fellow Indian or anyone else for that matter who I consider a friend or in the least a good person.
The Indian community does a great deal for its members, yet there is always the minority that are 'bad', greedy and uncharitable.
The Indian community is by far one of the most progressive, informed, talented, communities in the New World.
We range from janitors, to professors.
Every successive generation of Indians in the New World is usually better off than their parental generation.
However it seems to have reached a 'carrying capacity' in some places and some of the new generation are falling prey to the ills of society such as drugs, gangs and crime, and not to mention apathy in general.
We have a vital position in our communities to serve as positive role models.
I hope most of you will take up the cause and show to the children of tommorrow that they too can be successful.

 

[Ajay]

The Indian community is by far one of the most progressive, informed, talented, communities in the New World.

Yup. Social climbers.

 

[JattMed]

Yup. Social climbers.

Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't coitus anyone over.
More power to you!

 

[Ajay]

I think you set your children up for failure if they're led to believe everyone can be a surgeon or a judge. Such fanciful thinking has detrimental effects on the psyche of a child unable to measure up to a conventional measure of success.

Therefore, I think it's more important for the next generation to look to "something beyond one's self", be kind, honest, hard working and above all else, happy. The latter is the best measure of success.

 

[Ajay]

Nothing wrong with that as long as you don't coitus anyone over.
More power to you!

Did you mean 'don't **** someone over' or 'don't sleep around'?

Many people practice the former and what's wrong with the latter? Sexuality has been used to garner power for ages.

 

[JattMed]

Did you mean 'don't **** someone over' or 'don't sleep around'?

Many people practice the former and what's wrong with the latter? Sexuality has been used to garner power for ages.

If you're a morally corrupt person I guess......... Real men get power the old fashioned way.
They just take it.
Then their wives deny them certain privileges and men are back to square one, powerless
Alas, I'd rather play that game than be a eunuch though.
Wow how sagacious of me, well not really I guess it is a no brainer.
Give up some power for some loving, and avoiding castration.............easy choice.

 

[Ajay]

If you're a morally corrupt person I guess......... Real men get power the old fashioned way.
They just take it.
Then their wives deny them certain privileges and men are back to square one, powerless
Alas, I'd rather play that game than be a eunuch though.
Wow how sagacious of me, well not really I guess it is a no brainer.
Give up some power for some loving, and avoiding castration.............easy choice.

Believe me, there are plenty of guys who would marry rich were they given an opportunity. I'm sure there are lots of 'kept men' out there.

 

[JattMed]

I can have the Mental Health Act invoked on me any minute.
I can see the men in white (MIW) with butterfly nets.......gotta run...

 

[Auron]

bump

 

[cool_vkb]

.

 

[DrGarfield]

I Wonder..........

 

[loca Dr. chica]

/

 

[Northerner]

I did not mean to imply that being stereotyped as a doctor is overly negative. Actually, my concern is similar to something you've mentioned in your post: that the majority of Indians aren't exceptionally educated - and might I add, "karmically aligned" upstanding individuals. My input on this subject is merely personal, but I've rarely heard anyone express the "cabbie" or "convenience store" sterotypes. Therefore, I always feel the need to point out that not all Indians are studious and upstanding. I extend this clarification to all racially associated sterotypes for all races.

Thank god. When will people learn that ALL stereotypes are harmful.

Some guy was claiming 50% of indians in america are doctors, was called on it, and then refused to believe anything below 30%. How absurd. In the U.S. Census, "Asian" refers to people having origins in any of the original peoples of the Far East, Southeast Asia, or the Indian subcontinent.

(total physicians = 884,974)

Race/Ethnicity Number Percentage
White 421,659 (47.8%)
Black 20,653 (2.3%)
Hispanic 27,935 (3.2%)
Asian 73,152 (8.3%)
American Native/Alaska Native 504 (.06%)
Other 20,011 (2.3%)
Unknown 321,060 (36%)
http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/12930.html

Consider that "unknown" may have decent shares of every ethnicity. But just for the sake of argument, we'll say they make up 1/2 of all Asians and 1/2 of all "unknown" (probably a vast overestimation). That means 4.1% + 19% = less than a quarter. 23% of 885,000 is 200,000. Unless there's less than 700,000 indians living in the U.S. out of the total of 300 million (which would be <0.3% of the U.S. population), way way way less than 30% of indians in America are doctors. The numbers I've seen suggest at least 1.7 million indians in America, which would put make our rough estimate of 200,000 indian physicians about 10%. Now, I used very generous estimates for this. The real number is probably much lower, I'm sure you all realize.

If anyone has the actual numbers, I'd love to see them. The point is that 1) stereotypes are harmful, misleading, divisive, arbitrary, unfair, and flat out insulting, 2) being proud of your culture is one thing, being ethnocentric to the point of distorting and overinflating your numbers in arguably the most coveted, rigorous, respected, and prestigious careers is just...pathetic.

 

[pika]

i am a final year medical student(intern
)in india...i plan to give my step 1 soon...
and m thinking of doing some elective postings i.e externship from some good university in US....
my doubts>>
*1 what if dont choose the branch later on...like now i am confused in between Psychiatry and paediatrics.
so if the LORS are from a different department...then??like....i do it in psychiatry and i want a residency in paeds later on??

*2 m a female student...wud paediatrics be too tuff a branch there...besides would visa be a problem for an unmarried girl?housing and all wud have to be arranged prior naa?

*3 california letter ...is dat a tuff thing to get? wat if i do my elective from california and dont get my residency there??? the LOR would still count naa?

*4 sure LOR milega??

*5 publicaions >>>> how do i get these things...

*6 electives available in harward are too costly....3,100 tution fees per month....plus application fees and all....is it worth the moolah???cause i fear harward school woudl give me a residency ever!!!!


m new at this forum...all help needed...m a little unexperienced to theis forum so all apologies for a 6 numbered doubtful post!!!

thanks in advance

 

[time xyz]

hi all
delighted to see a forum like this -
I request please do not fight over trivial issues like no. of Indian doctors.
We are and will continue to rise higher at good posts everywhere because of our hardwork ....
I 'VE POSTED A THREAD REGARDING DDS IN INTERNATIONAL FORUM DENTISTRY .... so those of you my people out there please reply to it ..
regards and wishes
time xyz

 

[Jasoos]

I am Indian. My family has been in Fiji for four generations now.

 

[Jasoos]

I am Indian. My family has been in Fiji for four generations now.

 

[kushma]

Hello everybody,
I'm from Bangalore. Now in San Jose CA. I matched in Metropolitan Hospital center - New York. Anybody matched there? or anyone know current residents there? There is no website for the program so unable to know about many things.
Thanks in advance.
-Kushma

 

[Northerner]

Of course there are many Indians out here...After all, it is Medicine

Add me to that list of conformists ...MSII in the MD/MBA Program at Texas Tech

I hate this attitude. The whole, "oh gosh, all indian people are doctors...how funny! We're all so smart and accomplished! It's just a given that all indian people become doctors!" B.S. You know what? India is the most populous country in the world (pretty much tied with China). The U.S. has the best medical training and quality healthcare in the world. It's not a big shock that the U.S. drains doctors from all the other parts of the world, roughly in proportion to the populations of those countries.

That is to say, if the U.S. attracts 10% of the doctors from every other country (an oversimplification, but illustrative nonetheless), you should have 10% of indian doctors, 10% of chinese doctors, 10% of colombian doctors, etc. Since India's and China's population is 3x the next highest country (U.S.), of course you're going to have more indian doctors (10% of 1 billion is a lot more than 10% of 200,000) than other ethnicities. But don't try to tell us it's for any other reason than that you're outbreeding everyone else. It's insulting and ethnocentric. Indian people are just like everyone else. I like them, but they're no better or worse than any other race.

 

[naegleria brain]

while i agree with your logic, you are forgetting that people are easily swayed by what they see.

your previous statistics indicate that asians make up nearly 9% of the medical profession, but barely make up 2% of the American population. you therefore have overrepresentation by the Asians, which lead to such stereotypes.

while wrong, it is not necessarily unfounded. for example, in a random sample of one thousand individuals, anyone would be more inclined to pick asians on greater numbers than their actual representation of the american population, because 9% is greater than 2%.

some minorities are overrepresented in medicine undoubtedly, and the next natural step for most people is to question why.

it's not my place to give reason or comment on the correctness or wrongness, but just pointing a hole in your assertions

 

[Northerner]

while i agree with your logic, you are forgetting that people are easily swayed by what they see.

your previous statistics indicate that asians make up nearly 9% of the medical profession, but barely make up 2% of the American population. you therefore have overrepresentation by the Asians, which lead to such stereotypes.

while wrong, it is not necessarily unfounded. for example, in a random sample of one thousand individuals, anyone would be more inclined to pick asians on greater numbers than their actual representation of the american population, because 9% is greater than 2%.

some minorities are overrepresented in medicine undoubtedly, and the next natural step for most people is to question why.

it's not my place to give reason or comment on the correctness or wrongness, but just pointing a hole in your assertions

Again - the reason why is because the U.S. attracts a large amount of physicians and ambitious people from other countries. What's erroneous is when people take that a step further (a step too far) and say that therefore indians are more hardworking, more intelligent, or more successful than other people in America.

You may be able to say 1) immigrants are more likely to be either physicians themselves who seek opportunity in the U.S.'s worldclass healthcare education and practice, or 2) immigrants are more likely to be particularly ambitious compared to their counterparts in their home country, thus set ambitious goals for their children. But you can't say "indian people are better suited to be doctors in some way" (I know you weren't saying that, but some people imply it).

Think of it this way. If you were to take the top 10% of EVERY country and put them all on the moon, I think we should all agree that they'd all be of the same intelligence and success. It's wrong and harmful to say (or imply) that one race is more intelligent or hardworking than another. That's it. The fact that some minorities are perhaps overrepresented should be noted, but interpreted with caution. An abundance of harmful repercussions would arise out of stereotypes based on such things.

 

[naegleria brain]

i agree with your conclusions but not your logic.

64% of Indians in America have a bachelors or higher, the highest out of any racial minority in the United States
60% Indians are in management, professional, or related services, way ahead of other Asian minorities, and almost double of American-born individuals
Indian men bring home the highest pay of any minority
indian families bring home the second highest gross income, a hundred dollars behind the Japanese, but well over any other minority.

Indians are most likely to be married, least likely to be divorced, and are the highest educated minority in america

all of these stats are not explained by your top 10% immigrants theory, because indians and japanese consistently prove to be way ahead of all other minorities, including chinese, vietnamese, african, spanish, european, etc.

the statistics clearly show indians are an extremely successful minority, moreso than others.

all this, i believe, stems from the culture, however. the indian household places education a priority from upbringing, and holds these virtues well into adulthood. the divorce statistics mirrors how indians generally look down upon divorcees and "spinsters". the pay a corollary of indian-beliefs of importance within professional school.

it's not that the united states recruits the top 10% of each nation. i think its generally in the upper half, but not all of the most intelligent indians have the resources to migrate half the world. it's actually these values that result in such successes.

similar values can be seen in certain other cultures, including japanese and other asian. that's why you see these races consistently beating the American mean for standards of lifestyle.

 

[Northerner]

64% of Indians in America have a bachelors or higher, the highest out of any racial minority in the United States.

Again, if you're skimming the best ~10% from a much larger population, you have a lot more people to be picky about. Think about it like medical school admissions. If a school gets 9,000 applications (assume that said school is all of their top choice) and another school gets 2,000 applications (again assume that said second school is all the 2,000 applicants' first choice), if they both pick the best 100, the school with more applicants to pick from is going to end up with better students.

60% Indians are in management, professional, or related services, way ahead of other Asian minorities, and almost double of American-born individuals

Again, the indian immigrants TO America are likely to be generally of a higher caliber than the population of India. That is to say, people who are ambitious and successful and capable will seek out opportunities, i.e. America. Please tell me you don't want to compare indians in India to Americans in America....because not only are you treading on thin ice on offending people in some sort of juvenile ethnic pissing match, but we'd be comparing apples to oranges. But we can compare objective measures of quality of life of India and the U.S. if you'd like. The "fact" that (if) indians are higher in management positions than American-born individuals merely confirms the idea that the U.S. attracts such people, because significant barriers to immigration to the U.S. (or emmigration from India) probably exist to keep a representative sample of India from coming.

Your competitiveness with other "Asian minorities" should really only talk about China. If you want to say "we're better than Chinese people living in America, fine, show me some numbers and I'll acquiesce that you're right, albeit petty.

Indian men bring home the highest pay of any minority

Strange thing to brag about. If you want to talk gender equality issues in the indian community compared to American, I think you'd find that a losing battle.

indian families bring home the second highest gross income, a hundred dollars behind the Japanese, but well over any other minority.

Again, strange thing to brag about. India has 10x the population of Japan, but falls second to them in income? What happened to all those college degrees and management positions you were talking about? Are you saying that indian people are less able to use their degrees to make a living?

Indians are most likely to be married, least likely to be divorced, and are the highest educated minority in america

Most likely to be married? Could that have something to do with the intense social and familial pressure to marry and not to get divorced? Could it be that the concept of arranged marriages has only been partly replaced by a near-crazed compulsion to put such pressure on children to wed to the point that even American born indians feel it's wrong, but go along with it out of fear of being disowned? Maybe something like that? I know you wanted to imply that it was because indians are have stronger values and are more loyal or less likely to be dysfunctional, but that's insulting so I'll pretend you didn't.

all of these stats are not explained by your top 10% immigrants theory, because indians and japanese consistently prove to be way ahead of all other minorities, including chinese, vietnamese, african, spanish, european, etc.

Fine, whatever pal. You're the BEST minority ever! My only question is this - how insulting would you find it if I went over to India and started making claims about how much better white people are than every other ethnicity in the country? How do you think a strong person of Chinese descent feels when you claim superiority? Do you know what we call claiming ethnic superiority is in America? Racism.

the statistics clearly show indians are an extremely successful minority, moreso than others.

Correction - you claimed indians are superior to American-born Americans too. Might as well throw everyone in as inferior to you.

all this, i believe, stems from the culture, however. the indian household places education a priority from upbringing, and holds these virtues well into adulthood. the divorce statistics mirrors how indians generally look down upon divorcees and "spinsters". the pay a corollary of indian-beliefs of importance within professional school.

Maybe that's your interpretation. My interpretation, AGAIN, is that since the group of indians in America represent a sample from the higher (perhaps highest) echelons of the indian population, of COURSE they're more likely to be successful, because the assumption is that all ethnicities are pretty much equal. If you were to compare the intelligence, success, and ambition of a group of Americans, or asians, that is from an EQUIVALENT (relatively speaking) social class or background to that we see in indian immigrants, I think we'd see that they ARE all equal....take medical school classes for example....at the very least I think you would be wise to start giving everyone the benefit of the doubt that their upbringing was just as value-laden as yours, and that every person deserves the same dose of respect or lack thereof without regard to their ethnicity. No one wants to hear about why you think your ethnicity is better than all the rest.

it's not that the united states recruits the top 10% of each nation. i think its generally in the upper half, but not all of the most intelligent indians have the resources to migrate half the world. it's actually these values that result in such successes.

This paragraph didn't make a whole lot of sense. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the U.S. recruits from roughly the upper half of the indian population, fine. Your guess is as good as mine. But your next statement was cryptic, are you trying to say that the fact that the U.S. recruits from the upper realms of indian population correlates to "such successes"? Because that's what I've been saying. Any discrepancies based on race are most likely due to sampling error. Surely you didn't waste all that time posting just to agree with me at the end....

similar values can be seen in certain other cultures, including japanese and other asian. that's why you see these races consistently beating the American mean for standards of lifestyle.

Whew. I knew you weren't going to leave me unsatisfied and say something sane as a conclusion. "Consistently beating the American mean for standards of lifestyle". Wow. That's so offensive and so completely incorrect that honestly, it doesn't warrant a response.

Let me try one last time. See if that extra intelligence your ethnicity grants you can follow 1)the U.S. attracts top people from massively populous countries, 2) giving all ethnicities the benefit of the doubt, we assume all ethnicities being attracted are of equal intelligence, values, and ambition, 3) a comparable cross-section of Americans that would be equivalent to the indians who have the means, background, and ambition to emmigrate to America would measure roughly the same as the indian population in America.

Here.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=388181

 

[naegleria brain]

whoa buddy, whether i was unclear, or you're lacking in comprehension, either way you completely missed the point.
and don't be so quick to label me a racist when i report actual numbers

Again, if you're skimming the best ~10% from a much larger population, you have a lot more people to be picky about. Think about it like medical school admissions. If a school gets 9,000 applications (assume that said school is all of their top choice) and another school gets 2,000 applications (again assume that said second school is all the 2,000 applicants' first choice), if they both pick the best 100, the school with more applicants to pick from is going to end up with better students.

i agree with this. my point is that indians, of all minorities WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, and including Americans as well, are the most educated and highest paid. when every minority derives itself from the top 10%, according to you, or upper half, my view, of their respective nation, they should all be equally successful. but indians and japanese consistenly prove far ahead of any other. THAT'S where your top 10% argument fails.

Again, the indian immigrants TO America are likely to be generally of a higher caliber than the population of India. That is to say, people who are ambitious and successful and capable will seek out opportunities, i.e. America. Please tell me you don't want to compare indians in India to Americans in America....because not only are you treading on thin ice on offending people in some sort of juvenile ethnic pissing match, but we'd be comparing apples to oranges. But we can compare objective measures of quality of life of India and the U.S. if you'd like. The "fact" that (if) indians are higher in management positions than American-born individuals merely confirms the idea that the U.S. attracts such people, because significant barriers to immigration to the U.S. (or emmigration from India) probably exist to keep a representative sample of India from coming.

again, read what i wrote above. i'm not comparing indians in india to americans in america; you're right, that's not even apples to oranges, it's like comparing strawberries in ice cream to canteloupe in a manure field.

Your competitiveness with other "Asian minorities" should really only talk about China. If you want to say "we're better than Chinese people living in America, fine, show me some numbers and I'll acquiesce that you're right, albeit petty.

The numbers I reported in a previous post represent the state of INDIANS IN AMERICA, not indians in india. these numbers are far greater than any other minority, including chinese, with the exception in certain fields to the japanese, which i noted clearly

Strange thing to brag about. If you want to talk gender equality issues in the indian community compared to American, I think you'd find that a losing battle.

you mistook me. i'm showing how indians in general make more than others in america. this, however, can be attributable to the 10% theory. but the 10% theory doesnt explain why they make more than other minorities.

AND the figures are equally impressive for indian women, albeit they aren't the highest paid minority, second to japanese i believe
btw, japanese men are second to indian men and it's pretty much the same in terms of salary.

if you want to talk about gender equality, i think it'd be quite difficult to find an indian girl in this present generation who is discouraged from education/attaining a job due to her gender. that old-world mentality died iwth the previous generation, and although exists in india in certain places, does not here.

Again, strange thing to brag about. India has 10x the population of Japan, but falls second to them in income? What happened to all those college degrees and management positions you were talking about? Are you saying that indian people are less able to use their degrees to make a living?

indians in america vs. japanese in america. and we're talking average here buddy. so large numbers don't apply when comparing averages.

Most likely to be married? Could that have something to do with the intense social and familial pressure to marry and not to get divorced? Could it be that the concept of arranged marriages has only been partly replaced by a near-crazed compulsion to put such pressure on children to wed to the point that even American born indians feel it's wrong, but go along with it out of fear of being disowned? Maybe something like that? I know you wanted to imply that it was because indians are have stronger values and are more loyal or less likely to be dysfunctional, but that's insulting so I'll pretend you didn't.

i admitted the pressures of marriage in our culture. but the values thing i disagree with. indians undoubtedly place extremely high value on education. much moreso than most other cultures, and that, in my opinion, is a reason for their success

Fine, whatever pal. You're the BEST minority ever! My only question is this - how insulting would you find it if I went over to India and started making claims about how much better white people are than every other ethnicity in the country? How do you think a strong person of Chinese descent feels when you claim superiority? Do you know what we call claiming ethnic superiority is in America? Racism.

I didn't say superiority. I gave numbers indicating how successful indians in america were. you assumed superiority from my words. i never said any such thing. i attribute the success to the high value on education that not all cultures share.

the cultures that do however, consistenly portray successful stats.

Correction - you claimed indians are superior to American-born Americans too. Might as well throw everyone in as inferior to you.

nope - you did. i just said the numbers indicate indians are more successful. and when 1 in 9 is a millionare, yes, they clearly are successful.

Maybe that's your interpretation. My interpretation, AGAIN, is that since the group of indians in America represent a sample from the higher (perhaps highest) echelons of the indian population, of COURSE they're more likely to be successful, because the assumption is that all ethnicities are pretty much equal. If you were to compare the intelligence, success, and ambition of a group of Americans, or asians, that is from an EQUIVALENT (relatively speaking) social class or background to that we see in indian immigrants, I think we'd see that they ARE all equal....take medical school classes for example....at the very least I think you would be wise to start giving everyone the benefit of the doubt that their upbringing was just as value-laden as yours, and that every person deserves the same dose of respect or lack thereof without regard to their ethnicity. No one wants to hear about why you think your ethnicity is better than all the rest.

see the above why the 10% rule didn't make sense

Whew. I knew you weren't going to leave me unsatisfied and say something sane as a conclusion. "Consistently beating the American mean for standards of lifestyle". Wow. That's so offensive and so completely incorrect that honestly, it doesn't warrant a response.

yes, they consistently beat the mean salary, education, etc. it's like saying men consistently illustrate taller means than women. is that offensive? meh, not my place to answer, but its true

Let me try one last time. See if that extra intelligence your ethnicity grants you can follow 1)the U.S. attracts top people from massively populous countries, 2) giving all ethnicities the benefit of the doubt, we assume all ethnicities being attracted are of equal intelligence, values, and ambition, 3) a comparable cross-section of Americans that would be equivalent to the indians who have the means, background, and ambition to emmigrate to America would measure roughly the same as the indian population in America.

i never said being indian grants intelligence. i said their familial value on education from childhood makes them intelligent.

in summary, dont jump to conclusions, and cool down a little. the numbers presented were stats from indians in america, and are higher than for any other ethicity in the nation. 10% rule indicates all minorities should be roughly equal, when the numbers indicate otherwise.

i equate it with VALUES. this seems to be a hot button to set off your incredibly short temper, so before you start blowin your fuse, i say again, VALUE ON EDUCATION that not all cultures share.

 

[Northerner]

whoa buddy, whether i was unclear, or you're lacking in comprehension, either way you completely missed the point.
and don't be so quick to label me a racist when i report actual numbers



i agree with this. my point is that indians, of all minorities WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, and including Americans as well, are the most educated and highest paid. when every minority derives itself from the top 10%, according to you, or upper half, my view, of their respective nation, they should all be equally successful. but indians and japanese consistenly prove far ahead of any other. THAT'S where your top 10% argument fails.



again, read what i wrote above. i'm not comparing indians in india to americans in america; you're right, that's not even apples to oranges, it's like comparing strawberries in ice cream to canteloupe in a manure field.



The numbers I reported in a previous post represent the state of INDIANS IN AMERICA, not indians in india. these numbers are far greater than any other minority, including chinese, with the exception in certain fields to the japanese, which i noted clearly



you mistook me. i'm showing how indians in general make more than others in america. this, however, can be attributable to the 10% theory. but the 10% theory doesnt explain why they make more than other minorities.

AND the figures are equally impressive for indian women, albeit they aren't the highest paid minority, second to japanese i believe
btw, japanese men are second to indian men and it's pretty much the same in terms of salary.

if you want to talk about gender equality, i think it'd be quite difficult to find an indian girl in this present generation who is discouraged from education/attaining a job due to her gender. that old-world mentality died iwth the previous generation, and although exists in india in certain places, does not here.



indians in america vs. japanese in america. and we're talking average here buddy. so large numbers don't apply when comparing averages.



i admitted the pressures of marriage in our culture. but the values thing i disagree with. indians undoubtedly place extremely high value on education. much moreso than most other cultures, and that, in my opinion, is a reason for their success



I didn't say superiority. I gave numbers indicating how successful indians in america were. you assumed superiority from my words. i never said any such thing. i attribute the success to the high value on education that not all cultures share.

the cultures that do however, consistenly portray successful stats.



nope - you did. i just said the numbers indicate indians are more successful. and when 1 in 9 is a millionare, yes, they clearly are successful.



see the above why the 10% rule didn't make sense



yes, they consistently beat the mean salary, education, etc. it's like saying men consistently illustrate taller means than women. is that offensive? meh, not my place to answer, but its true



i never said being indian grants intelligence. i said their familial value on education from childhood makes them intelligent.

in summary, dont jump to conclusions, and cool down a little. the numbers presented were stats from indians in america, and are higher than for any other ethicity in the nation. 10% rule indicates all minorities should be roughly equal, when the numbers indicate otherwise.

i equate it with VALUES. this seems to be a hot button to set off your incredibly short temper, so before you start blowin your fuse, i say again, VALUE ON EDUCATION that not all cultures share.

Well, I'm obviously bored enough to respond, so I'm bored enough to care apparently. I just think you're not really getting my point, and obviously I'm not getting yours, if it exists. C'est la vie.