Are there any unemployed fellows out there now?

[2121115]

It is now the end of January and current fellows will be finishing their fellowships in 5 months. If anyone knows of any fellows who do not have a non-fellowship, attending-level position lined up to start this summer please tell their stories here (keep it anonymous though, obviously). Please describe their job search strategy, how many places they applied, did they cold call, did they only apply to online openings, did they consider academics or community practice, did they turn down any positions that they now wish they hadn't, what is their back up plan, etc, etc. This will be helpful knowledge for those of us who will be looking for a position during the next cycle.

Don't be disrespectful, obviously. I just think that, given that we always hear how many people wind up without jobs and going onto second/third/fourth fellowships, it would be constructive for many of us to hear these stories.

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[green mantis]

I'm not sure how the job market is shaping up this year. My PD said that last year 2009 was the worst he's ever seen. We had 6 SP fellows, & only 2 had non-fellowship positions before we graduated. 2 went on to pursue other fellowships (their 2nd). Myself & 1 other just landed positions in the last couple months. (Oddly enough, we both trained at the same residency program.)


----- Antony

 

[2121115]

I'm not sure how the job market is shaping up this year. My PD said that last year 2009 was the worst he's ever seen. We had 6 SP fellows, & only 2 had non-fellowship positions before we graduated. 2 went on to pursue other fellowships (their 2nd). Myself & 1 other just landed positions in the last couple months. (Oddly enough, we both trained at the same residency program.)


----- Antony

So you and 1 other SP fellow from your program went with no work at all from June until a couple of months ago? I didn't realize it was that bad out there.

 

[path24]

green mantis....what did you and others you know do in between? locums and hope something pans out? If you did locums what was your experience like? thanks

 

[Napoleon1801]

No jobs yet for our surgical and our cyto fellows. Both of them are on fellowship #2. Everything that I've seen so far points to a stinky job market...I don't think its just hype.

 

[2121115]

No jobs yet for our surgical and our cyto fellows. Both of them are on fellowship #2. Everything that I've seen so far points to a stinky job market...I don't think its just hype.

Wow. That is bad. Can you say a little more about their job search experiences? Did they get any interviews even or just no responses at all?

I am really feeling sorry for them. Just wow.

 

[Thrombus]

No jobs yet for our surgical and our cyto fellows. Both of them are on fellowship #2. Everything that I've seen so far points to a stinky job market...I don't think its just hype.

Something must be done. This is an abomination.

I would be at my program director's office every day asking him/her what the heck is going on? Why are they training unemployable pathologists?

With 52 people applying to remote Winona, MN I think that is more than enough evidence to tell us what the problem is.

 

[2121115]

With 52 people applying to remote Winona, MN I think that is more than enough evidence to tell us what the problem is.

It is interesting that 52 candidates applied to rural MN and yet they are still looking. Either all 52 candidates were unqualified or numerous people basically send out blanket applications to internet job postings and the ones that were qualified found something else that they liked better. It is amazing that a group can comb through 52 CV's and not find anyone they think is a good fit.

I think situations like this tell us that there is a problem, but I'm not sure it tells us what that problem is. When a group has a definite need for a pathologist, is willing to post it on a national online database, is located in a "suboptimal location" and likely knows they are going to attract fewer applicants because of that, gets 52 applications, and doesn't find anyone they can hire... what does that say? I don't know what it says honestly.

 

[APCPBBNP]

It is interesting that 52 candidates applied to rural MN and yet they are still looking. Either all 52 candidates were unqualified or numerous people basically send out blanket applications to internet job postings and the ones that were qualified found something else that they liked better. It is amazing that a group can comb through 52 CV's and not find anyone they think is a good fit.

I think situations like this tell us that there is a problem, but I'm not sure it tells us what that problem is. When a group has a definite need for a pathologist, is willing to post it on a national online database, is located in a "suboptimal location" and likely knows they are going to attract fewer applicants because of that, gets 52 applications, and doesn't find anyone they can hire... what does that say? I don't know what it says honestly.

It is just unbelievable how some people on this forum can misinterpret everything in order to make their opinion correct; since post regarding position in Winona is clearly misunderstood, I fill obligated to comment; Ms Fangman didn’t comment on quality of applicants; she just sad that they were in the process of reviewing 53 applications (she sounded a little bit upset with the number of applications that she had to review, but this is just my impression, I might be wrong, it was late Friday afternoon when I called), and that is still not late to apply; ones the process of reviewing is over, selected candidates will be called for an interview.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>

 

[path19]

Back to the original topic, I will describe all of the current fellows that I have personal knowledge of...

2 dermpath fellows have had a job lined up for ~ 6 months
1 GI fellows has had a job lined up for ~ 6 months
1 GI fellow recently accepted a job
1 cyto fellow has had a job lined up for ~ 6 months
3 cyto fellows are still looking. 1 is actively trying to get into another fellowship at the last minute since he can't find a job in his city of choice, the other 2 have no clue what they're going to do. possibly scramble into another open fellowship
2 surg path fellows have recently obtained jobs
9 surg path fellows are going on to 2nd (subspecialty) fellowships
2 heme fellows have recently obtained a job
3 heme fellows are still looking
1 blood bank fellow is still looking

 

[2121115]

Back to the original topic, I will describe all of the current fellows that I have personal knowledge of...

2 dermpath fellows have had a job lined up for ~ 6 months
1 GI fellows has had a job lined up for ~ 6 months
1 GI fellow recently accepted a job
1 cyto fellow has had a job lined up for ~ 6 months
3 cyto fellows are still looking. 1 is actively trying to get into another fellowship at the last minute since he can't find a job in his city of choice, the other 2 have no clue what they're going to do. possibly scramble into another open fellowship
2 surg path fellows have recently obtained jobs
9 surg path fellows are going on to 2nd (subspecialty) fellowships
2 heme fellows have recently obtained a job
3 heme fellows are still looking
1 blood bank fellow is still looking

You know A LOT of fellows. How big is your program?

 

[path24]

We are not talking about McDonalds people...they are hiring a physician. Of course its going to take some time to make a decision, especially when you have 50+ applicants you get the pick of the liter.

 

[path19]

You know A LOT of fellows. How big is your program?

These are all the fellows I have knowledge of, not all are at my current program. I am doing fellowship somewhere different than where I did my residency.

 

[Art]

I am in a mid-tier program North of the Mason-Dixon line and west of the Mississippi River, don't want to give further detais to maintain anonymity.

While interviewing I asked the PD about job placement. The program was quite proud that during the past 5 years every resident got a fellowship, every fellow got a job, and all the residents who went into fellowships subsquently got jobs. The former residents all got jobs they wanted, based on geography and desire. Once I came here, I was able to verify that the PD's information was accurate.

This ancedotal information is just one snapshot and cannot be considered definitive proof that the job market is fine. But no one from my program is having trouble at all getting jobs, with every candidate having at least 2 and up to 4 offers. This includes every single resident who finished in 2009 and did a 1 year fellowship (i.e. new job offered in the fall of 2009 to start in the summer of 2010).

 

[danaphosaurus]

when are we all going to stop comparing ourselves to everyone else- not all pathology residents and fellows are created equal-
btw- I just had the pleasure of witnessing a private pathology group interview 2 candidates for a position- The one person will probably have no idea why they didn't get invited back- Sure they have experience but.... woah- Some people look amazing on paper but you never know what's goiing to walk through the door-

 

[BrainPathology]

when are we all going to stop comparing ourselves to everyone else- not all pathology residents and fellows are created equal-
btw- I just had the pleasure of witnessing a private pathology group interview 2 candidates for a position- The one person will probably have no idea why they didn't get invited back- Sure they have experience but.... woah- Some people look amazing on paper but you never know what's goiing to walk through the door-

Why wasn't the other person invited back?

 

[xanthines]

Since it was interview, I'd say they were some combination of smug, arrogant, inarticulate, or clueless.

I've interviewed more than my fair share of applicants for MD/PhD programs as well as for jobs in non-science fields. The above pretty much covers all the reasons for rejections at the interview stage. The rest are either that someone simply interviewed better or that the job was pretty much already taken and the hiring people were just going through the motions. No joke. I've witnessed that last one before.

-X

Why wasn't the other person invited back?

 

[yaah]

We interviewed a person awhile back who showed up late for their interview and didn't even mention it or explain, apologize or anything. Not a good idea.

 

[green mantis]

The rest are either that someone simply interviewed better or that the job was pretty much already taken and the hiring people were just going through the motions. No joke. I've witnessed that last one before.

That can be said for a fair number of fellowship positions also.


----- Antony

 

[APCPBBNP]

1 SP fellow, 3 interviews, no job offer so far (this is his 2nd fellowship)
2 SP fellows, both going for 2nd fellowships
1 cytofellow, one interview so far, one job offer (this is her 2nd fellowship)
1 cytofellow, 2 interviews, no job offer so far (also 2nd fellowship)
1 hemepath fellow, going for 2nd fellowship
1 hemepath fellow, one job offer (this is her 2nd fellowship)

 

[rangers]

Seems the majority of the fellows here (Surg, Cyto, Heme) do not have jobs yet. Some have done 1 fellowship, others 2. They are interviewing, but faculty have said this is the worst year they have ever seen for the market. Several are interviewing in other parts of the country. This is at a strong program with good connections in the regional job market. It is very disheartening to see.

 

[dwil75]

Seems the majority of the fellows here (Surg, Cyto, Heme) do not have jobs yet. Some have done 1 fellowship, others 2. They are interviewing, but faculty have said this is the worst year they have ever seen for the market. Several are interviewing in other parts of the country. This is at a strong program with good connections in the regional job market. It is very disheartening to see.

Oh, my gosh. Oh, that is hard

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether the job market is seasonal... I mean by that, do places tend to hold out a few months while they interview, waiting to see if they can get their top pick, but then, because everyone can't have someone with derm AND GI AND whatever else... spots open up in the late spring?

This is what we have told by fellows who are on their second fellowship (as a matter of choice)... that the market opens up more in the spring.

 

[APCPBBNP]

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June 2005
An oversupply
The article “From hunt to hire—tips for landing that just-right job” (April 2005, page 14) reminded us of the skills needed to find a good job. Unfortunately, it will not change the difficult job market for today’s graduates. When I started my residency, we were told there was a shortage of pathologists and job prospects were good, but that is not the case and it never will be. It’s simple: There are more residency programs and pathologists in the market than are needed, and we can see the outcome of this in many of the problems we are facing. Why can other physicians direct bill? There are too many pathologists competing for a limited number of specimens. Why can hospitals relentlessly reduce our pay in our contract for Part A reimbursement? Because they can easily find an alternative to cover the service. Why will commercial laboratories soon dominate the outpatient anatomic pathology specimen market? They can hire someone at a less favorable income. Why do many graduates do second and third fellowships? There are too few jobs for them. Why is our locum tenens pay rate only half that of the radiologists? More pathologists than radiologists are available for this type of work.
If we don’t solve this oversupply problem, it will only worsen because more and more pathologists are entering the market, and two classes of residency graduates will finish training together next year.

Ming Cao, MD
Pathologist

Flint Clinical Pathologists PC

Flint, Mich.​

In the April issue of CAP TODAY (page 6) are several letters about client billing. Robert Hubbard, MD, is on target, but all the contributors raise valid observations. To paraphrase Clinton, “It’s the oversupply, stupid!”
I retired in 1997 as chairman of a three-person group in a Philadelphia community hospital. Deals were made behind closed doors with HMOs whereby the hospital collected the technical fees for anatomic pathology but we were not permitted to bill for Part B services. My group experienced a drastic cut in our modest Part A remuneration for administration, supervision, and teaching. We operated a successful school of medical technology of which I served as medical director and, along with my associates, gave my share of lectures. After I retired and the students graduated, the program was terminated as not being “cost-efficient.” A year or two after my retirement, the Philadelphia Inquirer published an article listing the salaries of the Philadelphia and surrounding area hospital CEOs. Obviously our Part A reduction and that of other hospital-based departments helped fund the inflated salary at the hospital where I worked.
During the 1990s my friends in urology and neurosurgery knew that residency programs in their specialties had already been reduced—an action that pathology should have taken.
Reimbursement for Part B services has been steadily declining and all pathologists working in that arrangement will slide backward in income. Our friends in radiology have advantages: First, the reimbursements are better, and, second, every service qualifies as part B and those studies far outnumber what is available to us. Again, basic economics.
During my early years as a pathologist there was good-natured jesting between “town and gown” pathologists. It doesn’t require an advanced degree in common sense to acknowledge that academia has a different agenda (namely cranking out residents) from the grunts in community hospitals.
In my early days I enjoyed reading the Alvan G. Foraker, MD, stories published in Pathologist magazine about the harried Job Plodd, MD, pathologist at Podunk General Hospital. They were classics then and fit well in today’s environment.

William J. Warren, MD
Furlong, Pa.
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[2121115]

I intend to take on the job market with just one fellowship. If things don't work out my contingency plan is a second fellowship or to try and find an instructor/junior faculty position for a year or two and wait for something to come up. I'm willing to go anywhere and do anything though. Hopefully it will work out.

 

[yaah]

This is what we have told by fellows who are on their second fellowship (as a matter of choice)... that the market opens up more in the spring.

There always seem to be more job postings that pop up in the spring, but whether that means the market really opens up more is another question. The really good private jobs usually start the hiring process well in advance of start date, and often have someone locked in at least 6-9 months prior. That's because they know their needs and plan well. But sometimes retirements are difficult to foresee, as well as people changing jobs, increasing volume needing more bodies, things like that.

It is unlikely that someone who did derm and GI would be hired because they did both. More likely it would be because they did one of the two. Both are busy specialties and most places that would be looking for one or the other have sufficient volume to support it.

 

[2121115]

This is what we have told by fellows who are on their second fellowship (as a matter of choice)... that the market opens up more in the spring.

I would think that in the spring groups start looking to fill positions for the next year right? How many groups start a search in March/April for someone to start in July? I would think that would be uncommon (but what do I know). Most of the people I know who have done a job search the past few years have started looking roughly 12-16 months in advance and found that most groups did the same. That said, maybe there are fewer applicants in the spring that can start in June so there is less competition for the few jobs that do open up in that time frame? I don't know.

 

[maji]

I know I may be getting way ahead of myself. I start path residency in July, but reading these articles about the market makes it a scary investment. If i train 5-6 more years and come out with out a desirable job, then I am not too sure if it is worth it. Pathology is great, and I definitely would be happy doing it, but if 500 pathologists graduate a year... Are there really that many baby boomer pathologists who are going to retire?

I can see myself perfectly happy in academia. Is that market as full?
I prematched at path already, but the market has me keeping an open mind about the future should I need to switch (which would be sad).

On interviews every PD said there was no problem finding jobs, but they want residents, so who knows what their intentions are.

 

[2121115]

If i train 5-6 more years and come out with out a desirable job, then I am not too sure if it is worth it.

I think everyone would agree with that. Of course it would not be worth it.

I can see myself perfectly happy in academia. Is that market as full?

No it isn't. You see 50+ people applying for a private job in rural MN, yet pathoutlines is littered with academic jobs. I would wager that none of these jobs are getting applications from 50+ quality candidates. The academic path jobs are a different market, but if you spend some time in academia you will see why. It isn't bad by any means, but it isn't for everyone. Mainly, there is a stark difference in income, so you really have to love teaching, writing papers, and only signing out one type of specimen (specialist) to make up for the income disparity.

I prematched at path already, but the market has me keeping an open mind about the future should I need to switch (which would be sad).

It is wise to continue to consider what is best for your future. However, don't let this affect your work ethic in 1st year. Work hard and learn actively. Keep an eye on the more senior residents at your program and see what kind of jobs they are getting. If you wouldn't be happy with those jobs then take that as a warning.

 

[Entgegen]

On interviews every PD said there was no problem finding jobs, but they want residents, so who knows what their intentions are.

I recently emailed the PD of a strong program in my state about the current job market, and specifically about how that program's residents and fellows are doing as far as securing jobs. Here's the gist of what he said:

- The job market is without a doubt tighter now than it was 5 years ago because of the current economic situation and uncertainty about health care reform...groups want to see what happens before they take on new hires.
- None of the recent graduates has been unintentionally without a job, although some have done a year of fellowship beyond what they originally intended in order to stall for time.
- There are a few graduates from several years ago who seem to be chronically underemployed, likely because they've developed a bad reputation for themselves in the local job market.
- Surveys show that pathology is an old field in terms of age of its practitioners, and that there is a predicted shortage in the not too distant future. However, pathologists do tend to work longer due to the less demanding work of the field.
- Who knows how things will be when you are job-hunting (6-7 years, if I end up doing path)...political and economic situations tend to change more quickly than that time frame.
- A commonality seen in graduates struggling to find work is an unwillingness or inability to relocate or compromise.
- If you feel like you'll be firmly tied to the immediate area when you graduate, that may be reason to consider a field in primary care over pathology, if you think you could be happy with clinical medicine.

Seems to be an almost unexpectedly honest response from a program director. I guess it's good to see that not all of them are interested in blowing smoke.

 

[APCPBBNP]

I recently emailed the PD of a strong program in my state about the current job market, and specifically about how that program's residents and fellows are doing as far as securing jobs. Here's the gist of what he said:

- The job market is without a doubt tighter now than it was 5 years ago because of the current economic situation and uncertainty about health care reform...groups want to see what happens before they take on new hires.
- None of the recent graduates has been unintentionally without a job, although some have done a year of fellowship beyond what they originally intended in order to stall for time.
- There are a few graduates from several years ago who seem to be chronically underemployed, likely because they've developed a bad reputation for themselves in the local job market.
- Surveys show that pathology is an old field in terms of age of its practitioners, and that there is a predicted shortage in the not too distant future. However, pathologists do tend to work longer due to the less demanding work of the field.
- Who knows how things will be when you are job-hunting (6-7 years, if I end up doing path)...political and economic situations tend to change more quickly than that time frame.
- A commonality seen in graduates struggling to find work is an unwillingness or inability to relocate or compromise.
- If you feel like you'll be firmly tied to the immediate area when you graduate, that may be reason to consider a field in primary care over pathology, if you think you could be happy with clinical medicine.

Seems to be an almost unexpectedly honest response from a program director. I guess it's good to see that not all of them are interested in blowing smoke.

?Strong program....with a few chronically underemployed graduates, likely because............

 

[pathcrazed]

?Strong program....with a few chronically underemployed graduates, likely because............

I'm pretty sure even the best of residency programs gets their share of bad apples over a few years.

 

[yaah]

- There are a few graduates from several years ago who seem to be chronically underemployed, likely because they've developed a bad reputation for themselves in the local job market.

This is a factor that too many people (particularly the underemployed themselves) tend to gloss over.

 

[maji]

I am not really tied to a location. I am moving to a new city and state for residency where I don't really know anyone. I don't mind the idea of academia if it can be more service work and teaching, and less research (could change my mind on that). My main issue really is the tremendous amount of debt I have.

The more I think about clinical medicine the less I feel like I could do it. Although I am a bit sad I got exposure to neurology so late in my program, as it is a pretty cool field, albeit depressing.

 

[2121115]

My main issue really is the tremendous amount of debt I have.

You and me both (not to mention many others). Unfortunately, at some point a generation of medical students are going to get left holding the bag when it comes to student debt and not being able to pay it back and still live well. I hope that is not us, but it will happen eventually.

 

[2121115]

There are a few graduates from several years ago who seem to be chronically underemployed, likely because they've developed a bad reputation for themselves in the local job market.

How does one become "chronically underemployed"? You are either employed or not right? Based on recent threads there are plenty of pathologists who would love to be "chronically underemployed" since they currently don't have any employment at all right?

 

[pathstudent]

How does one become "chronically underemployed"? You are either employed or not right? Based on recent threads there are plenty of pathologists who would love to be "chronically underemployed" since they currently don't have any employment at all right?

Underemployed in pathology would mean working part time when you want fulltime or working temporary positions.

 

[path24]

I know I may be getting way ahead of myself. I start path residency in July, but reading these articles about the market makes it a scary investment. If i train 5-6 more years and come out with out a desirable job, then I am not too sure if it is worth it. Pathology is great, and I definitely would be happy doing it, but if 500 pathologists graduate a year... Are there really that many baby boomer pathologists who are going to retire?

I can see myself perfectly happy in academia. Is that market as full?
I prematched at path already, but the market has me keeping an open mind about the future should I need to switch (which would be sad).

On interviews every PD said there was no problem finding jobs, but they want residents, so who knows what their intentions are.

Most of the fellows I know can't find jobs. You are going to see an even bigger back log of applicants for jobs now. It is going to get worse.

Academics is definitely more open than the private world for jobs.

A big retirement of pathologists (that has been said for over a decade....we are still waiting).