Are these crappy LOR's or what?

[LanceArmstrong]

---

Members don't see this ad.

So far I finished 3 of my cores and asked each of the 3 attendings I had for those 3 cores for LOR's. The LOR's I got in each case were each very generic looking things that were maybe 2/3 to 3/4 of a page long and basically broken down into several paragraphs. First paragraph: This student rotated with me. This student was good. Second paragraph: this student learned alot, this student got along great with everybody. Third paragraph: Please accept this student to your program.

Now I'm not superstar but my grades were H, H and HP (or A, A, and B+) in those rotations. And I feel I deserve some recognition here.

Now I know that some of these letters were written by the attending's secretaries from basically a generic form that they use for everybody and I think these LOR's are pretty worthless. Therefore I am really wondering now how do I go about getting a good personalized LOR that really shines. I know most people dont really take very good LOR's too seriously unless they are from some world-renowned person but I think crappy LORs like I got might be a minus if not a red flag for PD's who would see my app.

The rotation that i'm doing now, I dont even see the attending more than 3-4 times per week and when I do see him it's like "hello" "hi" I didn't even get to present a single patient to him in the last 4 weeks or give him input on any issue whatsoever.

A person I talked to said one of her attendings basically told her to write herself a LOR and he would sign it. As much as I feel uncomfortable doing that I almost feel tempted sometimes to ask an attending if they would let me do that in their rotation. What's the worst thing that can happen? Would a PD actually contact them, and ask them to elaborate on their LOR? Please tell me your stories of getting good LOR's and how you went about doing it. Thanks. 🙂

 

[jennyboo]

Not all medical schools let students read all their LORs. I waived the right to read mine (although I eventually snuck a peak when unceremoniously handed my own file during a residency interview and told to wait behind a secretary's desk for half an hour until the PD came back out). So it actually seems a little unusual to me when you say that you read three of your letters!

Ask someone you trust who's familiar with many other people's LORs to tell you if they're good. I think it's unreasonable to expect these letters to sound absolutely glowing about what a genius you are; if that's what they say, I would be a little skeptical and perhaps the reader would as well. But if they do an honest job of describing you and talking about how you learned during your rotation and what they liked about you, that's probably pretty good.

There *is* a "code" to letters, with certain words carrying certain meanings. I think it's more dangerous to write your own letters, being a student who hasn't seen lots of other letters and doesn't know what "good" letters look like compared to "average" letters.

 

[Wednesday]

You don't have to ask for letters during 3rd year core rotations. That's probably the issue. The best letters are from rotations in which you actually get to know the attending and the attending gets to know you. And these rotations usually happen in the 4th year. The rotation you are describing, where you barely talk to the attending, isn't one that you should get a LOR from.

The other problem is that you are getting letters from all different specialties. Do you already know what you want to do? Most people don't really make this decision until 4th year, so maybe the people you're asking to write letters for you don't think you'll use their letters and don't really know you so they just write something generic.

Remember, you only need 3-4 letters to apply. One of these may be a chairman's letter, which you won't get until later. If you're not getting the type of letters you want, just hold off a bit. You still have LOTS of time. I've found that attendings look at you much differently once you're a 4th year which will probably be reflected in any LOR they write. You can always go back and ask for a letter later from a rotation you did well in during 3rd year, you don't have to get it immediately.

 

[Dr Alo]

I asked for letters after every single rotaion. I didn't always get them, but I gave them my packet. I got about half of them back. If you wait till fourth year, you may not have any letters and will be applying with zero letters. I had about 6 or 7 letters, about 3 of them were awesome, the rest pretty standard, while the rest of my buddies had no letters and were scrambling trying to find them. They had to call attendings that they hadn't seen in months, seeing if they remember them, and trying to get letters.

Your letters sound like average letters. You showed up, were on time, got along with people. They aren't very glowing. I only used one average letter because it was from a big name person, the rest of my letters were the superlong great ones.

Hope that helps.

 

[LanceArmstrong]

I asked for letters after every single rotaion. I didn't always get them, but I gave them my packet. I got about half of them back. If you wait till fourth year, you may not have any letters and will be applying with zero letters. I had about 6 or 7 letters, about 3 of them were awesome, the rest pretty standard, while the rest of my buddies had no letters and were scrambling trying to find them. They had to call attendings that they hadn't seen in months, seeing if they remember them, and trying to get letters.

Your letters sound like average letters. You showed up, were on time, got along with people. They aren't very glowing. I only used one average letter because it was from a big name person, the rest of my letters were the superlong great ones.

Hope that helps.

I think if I had superlong great awesome letters I would use them rather than the worthless "blah" ones. I think the nes I have so far dont add anything to my application package except for padding.

 

[tigershark]

People generally write crappy generic letters if you dont waive your right to see them.

If you dont trust/know the attending well enough to waive the right you probably shouldnt be getting a letter from them.

 

[LanceArmstrong]

People generally write crappy generic letters if you dont waive your right to see them.

If you dont trust/know the attending well enough to waive the right you probably shouldnt be getting a letter from them.

How would you know what they wrote if you don't see them? I dont think it makes a difference whether you waiver your right to see them or not. You think they'll write you a crappy one if you don't waive your right, but then will turn around and write a good one if you do waive it? No way. What motivation would they have for it?

Also, how are you supposed to get to know an attending from a 4 week rotation (or even a longer rotation) when very little of your interaction is with them.

 

[earmuffs]

What I have heard is that most writers don't care if you waive your right to see it or not. However, I was told by faculty & administration that SOME residency programs will think less of LORs if you don't waive your right to see it. They might think that they're not getting as legitimate of a recommendation if they know:
1) The attending might not be as honest because they know the student will read it.
2) The attending has to submit it to the applicant, who can choose to discard or include it.

I'm not saying everyone or even that most look at it this way, but just something to keep in mind.

The other bit of advice they gave us is that letters from university-based physicians should always be used over community-based physicians unless there's some sort of remarkable personal story included in the letter.

I got 4 LOR's. One was from a pediatrician on staff at Children's Memorial who I worked with daily x3wks in the outpatient component of my M3 clerkship, and got to know really well (we even bet a 6-pack of beer on the outcome of a rapid strep test once...I lost 🙁 ). One was a chairman's letter, which you will get after you meet with your specialty advisor and/or chairman. And the other two both came from my 1st 2 rotations of 4th year, coming in plenty of time for my application to be complete by early october.

Waived my right to see all of them, and had no idea what to expect. #1 of them sent me a copy anyways, which was very personalized. #2 told me what she wrote. And occasionally you'll get feedback from your interviewers bringing up your letters.

So, to echo what everyone else is saying, ask for letters from attendings that you know well and also believe would take the time to write you a stellar letter. If you spent a significant amount of time with them and really trust them, waive seeing it later and have them submit it to the dean's office.

Good luck...you are way ahead of the rest of the game.

 

[tigershark]

How would you know what they wrote if you don't see them? I dont think it makes a difference whether you waiver your right to see them or not. You think they'll write you a crappy one if you don't waive your right, but then will turn around and write a good one if you do waive it? No way. What motivation would they have for it?

Also, how are you supposed to get to know an attending from a 4 week rotation (or even a longer rotation) when very little of your interaction is with them.

Okay Champ, you keep thinking that and keep on wondering why you get crappy LORs.

 

[4424]

How would you know what they wrote if you don't see them? I dont think it makes a difference whether you waiver your right to see them or not. You think they'll write you a crappy one if you don't waive your right, but then will turn around and write a good one if you do waive it? No way. What motivation would they have for it?

Also, how are you supposed to get to know an attending from a 4 week rotation (or even a longer rotation) when very little of your interaction is with them.

I agree with "earmuffs". I have heard the same things. Some residency programs do prefer that it is waived.

Also, I do not think you should be asking a LOR from an attending that you have very little interaction with. It is not worth getting a crappy letter just for the sake of having it at this point. You really only want to ask an attending that you feel you have spent significant time with.

 

[BigRedZippo]

How would you know what they wrote if you don't see them? I dont think it makes a difference whether you waiver your right to see them or not. You think they'll write you a crappy one if you don't waive your right, but then will turn around and write a good one if you do waive it? No way. What motivation would they have for it?

Also, how are you supposed to get to know an attending from a 4 week rotation (or even a longer rotation) when very little of your interaction is with them.

That's the POINT. The LORs are supposed to be an unbiased, unedited, frank, honest review of you as an applicant and houseofficer. The ONLY true way that an attending can do this is if you waive your right to see the letters. Frankly, after completing the interview trail in a competitive specialty just some weeks back, i was told by MULTIPLE PDs and attendings that they give very little credence to a letter if it wasn't waived. By the time you apply, you'll know who to ask, who writes good letters and if someone likes you. Chill for now.

 

[streetdoc]

but what does one do if they never have a rotation where they work one-on-one with an attending for any length of time. do you just ask the clerkship director that compiled all the feedback from the various evals??
streetdoc

 

[tigershark]

but what does one do if they never have a rotation where they work one-on-one with an attending for any length of time. do you just ask the clerkship director that compiled all the feedback from the various evals??
streetdoc

I would complain to your dean if you seriously never had a rotation where you had significant interaction with an attending. Your education is inadequate if that is truly the case.

Most of the time, electives are where you will get the most one on one attending interaction, I wouldnt sweat it if you are still in your third year core clerkships.

 

[robotsonic]

You guys are way too paranoid about the waiving issue. I was like that, too, until a resident saw my ERAS LOR cover sheet and asked why the hell I would waive my right to see a letter written about me. You have a right to see what is being said about you. I always waived my right to see the letter because I thought that was the standard. The resident told me that he learned not to do that when he gave the cover letter to an attending, with the "I waive my right..." box checked, and the attending told him to change it, to never give up the right to see what is written about you. And I thought that was a good argument, so after that I didn't waive my right. I had already sent one cover letter out, so that one I guess I can't read. But for the 3 others in ERAS I didn't waive my right, so I could theoretically read them. I haven't, but I would like to at some point.

And I don't think residency programs cared at all. They were still impressed with my LORs, and no one mentioned that I hadn't waived my right to see them. What they focused on most was the name of the person writing the letter. They know that these people are not going to write nice things about me just because I can see the letter! I know my letter-writers, and if they thought I was a crappy student, they would just say it, whether I could read it or not. But maybe that's just surgeons...

That was long-winded, but you get the idea. Stand up for your right to read your LORs!

 

[monkey7247]

My LOR came from:
-an FP who I worked with 1-on-1 for 3 weeks as a preceptorship (MS3)
-a surgeon who I operated with 3 days a week for the whole day (MS3)
-a pediatric ophthalmologist who I worked with in clinic and OR for ~2 weeks (MS4)
-a neuro-ophthalmologist who I worked with 2x/week for 4 weeks (MS4 externship)

This type of close contact is what you need to get stellar letters of rec. I was completely comfortable in waiving my right to see these letters because I knew these people knew me. None of them were "big name" people, but I'd rather get a great letter from an unknown attending than a blah letter from a famous one. Unless you're doing early match like I did, I suspect you could get nearly all of your letters 4th year when you'll have the opportunity for closer interaction.

 

[BigBadBix]

As others have mentioned, attending contact time varies widely from rotation to rotation, and your strongest letters will be from the attendings who know you best. If you find that you don't get to work closely with anyone during your core rotations, ask some current 4th years what electives offer a great deal of one-on-one time with attendings. You can then schedule these in late 3rd or early 4th year and ask for letters as soon as they are over. I did this and it worked out very well. Another option is to arrange a special elective with a particular person in your field of interest (again, it's good to ask around for advice regarding which attendings are best to work with).

Good luck!

-BBB

 

[bigfrank]

How would you know what they wrote if you don't see them?

You must relinquish some control.

 

[CANES2006]

I didn't get to read ANY of my LOR's. You're lucky you know what was said about you and can now choose not to send those "average" letters in. I had to hope that my letters were great because my school pretty much forces you to waive your right to see the letter. Guess it worked out well because several of my interviewers said that my LORs were glowing. 🙂

 

[TaiShan]

LORs are probably the least important factors for residency selection committee unless the letter-writer is well known to PDs or the letter is actually NOT recommending you. One PD told me that all letters are so good that he doesn't bother to look at them unless it is from one of his buddies (then he would call the LOR writer personally).

If you are really a steallar student, it should show up on your grades and step scores, which is certainly your case here. Do not worry too much.