Are these numbers right? Total pod students enrolled 2015: 2400. Total students graduated 2014: 564

[mitrieD]

AACPM link

Total pod students enrolled in 2014: 2,400.

Total pod students graduated in 2014: 564.

Please tell me I'm wrong on this. No way is the graduation rate ~30% for podiatry students, right? And lets not count students that drop out for personal life reasons because those aren't the majority. There's no way that the failure rate is that high right?

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[TimmyTurner]

I'm not sure how you are relating those two numbers to get 30% matriculation. If the TOTAL enrollment is 2400, divide that by 4, which represents the average number of students per class year- 600.

so 564/600 is 94%. Which would be around what I'd guess/hope matriculation to be, given personal reasons and drop outs.

 

[mitrieD]

Okay that makes much more sense. So each time you start a new year that counts as enrollment? But 94% seems pretty high, and med school isn't even that high

 

[TimmyTurner]

Okay that makes much more sense. So each time you start a new year that counts as enrollment? But 94% seems pretty high, and med school isn't even that high

Do you understand the term enrollment? It is the number of people enrolled, registered for classes, at a school or college. So in 2014 there were about 2,400 Pod students across the US- all 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th year students combined from each school was 2,400. That is the total enrollment.

So total enrollment and graduating pods for one year don't correlate. Dividing it by 4 is a very, very general estimate. If you're so interested in these numbers, look at the Enrollment between class years. # of 1st years in 2014 vs. # of 2nd years in 2015, so on and so forth. You need to follow the entire class through four years to find matriculation.

 

[feetsreets]

I added up all the class sizes for all 9 colleges and it came out to be about 665. So 564/665 is around 84% which I would be more inclined to believe just based on anecdotal evidence from this website and amount of students dropping out for various reasons. But I also don't know how many students matriculated for the class of 2014. maybe more, maybe less? Id assume that they were accepting more students then, as the residency shortage came after these students matriculated, and sense would reason that in 2013 and 2014, less students would have applied or even matriculated due to the shortage, but again, that's just an assumption I haven't looked to deeply into. If I had to guess id say really the graduation rate is around 80-90%, but hopefully improving each year as the residency shortage is mostly behind us.

 

[mitrieD]

I added up all the class sizes for all 9 colleges and it came out to be about 665. So 564/665 is around 84% which I would be more inclined to believe just based on anecdotal evidence from this website and amount of students dropping out for various reasons. But I also don't know how many students matriculated for the class of 2014. maybe more, maybe less? Id assume that they were accepting more students then, as the residency shortage came after these students matriculated, and sense would reason that in 2013 and 2014, less students would have applied or even matriculated due to the shortage, but again, that's just an assumption I haven't looked to deeply into. If I had to guess id say really the graduation rate is around 80-90%, but hopefully improving each year as the residency shortage is mostly behind us.

This sounds much more realistic and believable. Thanks

 

[feetsreets]

i also did a quick search on the schools. so you can find this on all their websites for their graduation rates and such. These are the 4 year graduation rates, however you do have to take into account those that left for a year or so for various reasons such as medical leave, or family emergencies and then returned and finished maybe a year or two late. So some of the final graduation numbers are a little higher.

4 year graduation rates
CSPM - 88%
AZ Pod - 86%
DMU - 90%
Scholl - 80%
Kent - 77%
NYCPM - 74%
Temple - 81.6 %
Barry - 82%
Western - idk couldn't find it on their site.

 

[Weirdy]

i also did a quick search on the schools. so you can find this on all their websites for their graduation rates and such. These are the 4 year graduation rates, however you do have to take into account those that left for a year or so for various reasons such as medical leave, or family emergencies and then returned and finished maybe a year or two late. So some of the final graduation numbers are a little higher.

4 year graduation rates
CSPM - 88%
AZ Pod - 86%
DMU - 90%
Scholl - 80%
Kent - 77%
NYCPM - 74%
Temple - 81.6 %
Barry - 82%
Western - idk couldn't find it on their site.

Western was pretty low, but when I asked during my interview (and they saw it do ING so they k ew I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything) they smiled and explained that it was due to factors such as smaller class size = bigger percentage when people drop out of their own Accord or due to grades.

Their board rates they said they paid attention to that more to try to boost it and did things like increase study days for boards and other stuff.

Know this probably didn't answer your question but mentality at Western was if you knee your medicine cold, the podiatry stuff itself shou.d be no problem.

They also take all courses with the DO students so curriculum is exactly the same but pod class grades are only amongst themselves not with the DO class.

 

[mitrieD]

Western was pretty low, but when I asked during my interview (and they saw it do ING so they k ew I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything) they smiled and explained that it was due to factors such as smaller class size = bigger percentage when people drop out of their own Accord or due to grades.

Their board rates they said they paid attention to that more to try to boost it and did things like increase study days for boards and other stuff.

Know this probably didn't answer your question but mentality at Western was if you knee your medicine cold, the podiatry stuff itself shou.d be no problem.

They also take all courses with the DO students so curriculum is exactly the same but pod class grades are only amongst themselves not with the DO class.

It seems class size is an important factor. I guess that doesn't explain Kent for their large class size... Kent seems to have a pretty good curriculum though.

 

[feetsreets]

Western was pretty low, but when I asked during my interview (and they saw it do ING so they k ew I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything) they smiled and explained that it was due to factors such as smaller class size = bigger percentage when people drop out of their own Accord or due to grades.

Their board rates they said they paid attention to that more to try to boost it and did things like increase study days for boards and other stuff.

Know this probably didn't answer your question but mentality at Western was if you knee your medicine cold, the podiatry stuff itself shou.d be no problem.

They also take all courses with the DO students so curriculum is exactly the same but pod class grades are only amongst themselves not with the DO class.

Although from the numbers it looks like bigger class size correlates with a lower 4 year graduation rate. Honestly idk about western. I'm sure it's fine, but to me something always seemed off about it!

 

[Weirdy]

Although from the numbers it looks like bigger class size correlates with a lower 4 year graduation rate. Honestly idk about western. I'm sure it's fine, but to me something always seemed off about it!

Completely understand.

I came out knowing they have a tough curriculum for a reason but its very "You can't perform? There's no excuse. Deal with it." sort of thing.

They produce results but very different mentality from other schools.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

More stats on the 2016 Residency Placements:

http://www.casprcrip.org/html/casprcrip/pdf/PlacementUpdate.pdf

2016 Residency Placement Status Update

The AACPM provides periodic status reports on residency placements beginning Match Week through the end of June. The 2016 CASPR Match was released on Monday, March 21st at 11:00 am Eastern. Unmatched applicants and positions participated in a supplemental matching process known as Match Phase Two (MP II). Match Week placement results were released at 3:00pm Eastern on Friday, March 25th.

RESIDENCY APPLICANTS: Class of 2016 Placed in Residencies 538 ( 97.8%)
To Be Placed 12 ( 2.2%) TOTAL 550 (100.0%)

RESIDENCY POSITIONS: CPME Approved Positions at March 7, 2016 608

When taking overall placements into consideration, 576 (94.1%) of the 612 residency applicants have found residency positions thus far this year. There are 36 (5.9%) applicants that have yet to find a residency position for the 2016-2017 training year.

 

[mitrieD]

More stats on the 2016 Residency Placements:

http://www.casprcrip.org/html/casprcrip/pdf/PlacementUpdate.pdf

2016 Residency Placement Status Update

The AACPM provides periodic status reports on residency placements beginning Match Week through the end of June. The 2016 CASPR Match was released on Monday, March 21st at 11:00 am Eastern. Unmatched applicants and positions participated in a supplemental matching process known as Match Phase Two (MP II). Match Week placement results were released at 3:00pm Eastern on Friday, March 25th.

RESIDENCY APPLICANTS: Class of 2016 Placed in Residencies 538 ( 97.8%)
To Be Placed 12 ( 2.2%) TOTAL 550 (100.0%)

RESIDENCY POSITIONS: CPME Approved Positions at March 7, 2016 608

When taking overall placements into consideration, 576 (94.1%) of the 612 residency applicants have found residency positions thus far this year. There are 36 (5.9%) applicants that have yet to find a residency position for the 2016-2017 training year.

So that's pretty good right? At least it was better than it used to be

 

[DexterMorganSK]

So that's pretty good right? At least it was better than it used to be

Yup, it's pretty impressive, especially when compared to the class of 12, 11, 10, etc. And, I can only imagine it getting better year after year as more Pods graduate and diverse the field.

 

[bobtheweazel]

So that's pretty good right? At least it was better than it used to be

Higher than the MD or DO match rates, so...yea, it's good.

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[SLCpod]

Higher than the MD or DO match rates, so...yea, it's good.

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If you have an MD or DO it is much easier to find a job compared to a DPM without a residency.

There will always be concern for a shortage and I don't see it ever being completely resolved. There will be a small percent every year that doesn't get a spot. It's sad but something you need to think about when considering podiatry.

 

[dr.phoot]

Higher than the MD or DO match rates, so...yea, it's good.

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Aren't the two supposed to combine (residencies) starting next year?

I think they'll mess up the #s, or at least not give a clearer picture.

As with most statistics, I'm usually more concerned with the "why" as opposed to the "what".

I'll like to see GPAs, class ranks and how it plays a factor in the 5.9% that don't match vrs the 94.1% that does match.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Aren't the two supposed to combine (residencies) starting next year?

I think they'll mess up the #s, or at least not give a clearer picture.

As with most statistics, I'm usually more concerned with the "why" as opposed to the "what".

I'll like to see GPAs, class ranks and how it plays a factor in the 5.9% that don't match vrs the 94.1% that does match.

Yes, they are supposed to combine residencies, I was simply referring to the most recent match data that is out which has MDs and DOs separate.

Also, apparently I'm the only person who feels like the residency thing is a nonissue at this point. Obviously nobody can predict the future but we are at a surplus of residency positions vs new graduates each year and the number of eligible past graduates without residencies shrinks each year as they fill some of those surplus positions. This is happening at a rate such that if it maintains (or even drops slightly) the excess graduates will be worked through the system within the next two cycles, after which we will simply have a surplus of positions each year and therefore virtually a 100% placement rate—though the people with poor personalities or people skills may still have trouble. That's what the math says and I don't see any real reason why that wouldn't be the case at this point. There is a cap on admissions and some schools don't even fill their cap each year. There are around 110% residency positions vs new graduates currently, though only about 104% were active this last cycle. Either way, a surplus is a surplus. I couldn't argue whether it's better to be an MD vs a DPM without a residency, obviously being an MD would put you in a better position. But I'm willing to bet that within the next few years a DPM without a residency will be a very rare thing anyway, so there's no point in analyzing GPAs and other match statistics or imagining what you would need to do if you don't match.


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[TimmyTurner]

Yes, they are supposed to combine residencies, I was simply referring to the most recent match data that is out which has MDs and DOs separate.

Also, apparently I'm the only person who feels like the residency thing is a nonissue at this point. Obviously nobody can predict the future but we are at a surplus of residency positions vs new graduates each year and the number of eligible past graduates without residencies shrinks each year as they fill some of those surplus positions. This is happening at a rate such that if it maintains (or even drops slightly) the excess graduates will be worked through the system within the next two cycles, after which we will simply have a surplus of positions each year and therefore virtually a 100% placement rate—though the people with poor personalities or people skills may still have trouble. That's what the math says and I don't see any real reason why that wouldn't be the case at this point. There is a cap on admissions and some schools don't even fill their cap each year. There are around 110% residency positions vs new graduates currently, though only about 104% were active this last cycle. Either way, a surplus is a surplus. I couldn't argue whether it's better to be an MD vs a DPM without a residency, obviously being an MD would put you in a better position. But I'm willing to bet that within the next few years a DPM without a residency will be a very rare thing anyway, so there's no point in analyzing GPAs and other match statistics or imagining what you would need to do if you don't match.


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The one caveat I would add to the residency surplus is that not all residencies are RRA certified programs. While a PMSR program alone is better than no program- those non RRA programs are realllllly undesirable imo. I suppose you could be fine in the states that do not allow any rear foot privileges, as I'm sure competition is pretty low. Personally, I think it would be worth waiting a year and shooting for a PMSR/RRA spot. Beyond that, I also consider it a non issue.

 

[ldsrmdude]

The residency supply is always in flux. When I first joined SDN in 2007, there had just been a noticeable surplus of residency spots. When residency spots go unfilled, they sometimes close. That combined with an increasing number of students matriculating led to the shortage that I dealt with when I graduated in 2012. It's something to keep in mind because there really aren't many choices for you if you don't get a residency.

 

[bobtheweazel]

The one caveat I would add to the residency surplus is that not all residencies are RRA certified programs. While a PMSR program alone is better than no program- those non RRA programs are realllllly undesirable imo. I suppose you could be fine in the states that do not allow any rear foot privileges, as I'm sure competition is pretty low. Personally, I think it would be worth waiting a year and shooting for a PMSR/RRA spot. Beyond that, I also consider it a non issue.

I hear ya. Definitely can't get the reconstructive rearfoot and ankle surgery certification without the RRA residency. However, the biggest misconception about the ABFAS certifications is that the foot certification doesn't include rearfoot. I've even heard practicing podiatrists confused on that point. The foot certification, which you can get without the RRA, includes surgical treatment of the entire foot (forefoot, midfoot, rearfoot) and nonsurgical care of the foot and ankle. It doesn't mean that someone with the foot certification is not certified to treat the rearfoot or ankle. They're just not certified in reconstructive rearfoot and ankle surgery.

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[dr.phoot]

Yes, they are supposed to combine residencies, I was simply referring to the most recent match data that is out which has MDs and DOs separate.

Also, apparently I'm the only person who feels like the residency thing is a nonissue at this point. Obviously nobody can predict the future but we are at a surplus of residency positions vs new graduates each year and the number of eligible past graduates without residencies shrinks each year as they fill some of those surplus positions. This is happening at a rate such that if it maintains (or even drops slightly) the excess graduates will be worked through the system within the next two cycles, after which we will simply have a surplus of positions each year and therefore virtually a 100% placement rate—though the people with poor personalities or people skills may still have trouble. That's what the math says and I don't see any real reason why that wouldn't be the case at this point. There is a cap on admissions and some schools don't even fill their cap each year. There are around 110% residency positions vs new graduates currently, though only about 104% were active this last cycle. Either way, a surplus is a surplus. I couldn't argue whether it's better to be an MD vs a DPM without a residency, obviously being an MD would put you in a better position. But I'm willing to bet that within the next few years a DPM without a residency will be a very rare thing anyway, so there's no point in analyzing GPAs and other match statistics or imagining what you would need to do if you don't match.


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Bob, I'm not worried about residency one bit. The pod resident that assisted the podiatrist when I went in for my surgery told me that it's not even an issue anymore and I'll be fine.

The podiatrist I'm shadowing also said I'll be fine and he's a residency director. He mentioned how he was trying to actually expand the spots at his place so they could take some more in.

What I was getting at is that, personally, I'm just the kind of guy that when everyone is so caught up in the "what" , I'm more curious about the "why".

Everyone is going wild about an accident that occurred and xyz, I want to know why the accident occurred, why the serial killer killed x amount of people, etc etc. It's just the natural direction that the wind blows me.

So, I'm not worried one bit about landing a residency spot after school. But I'm still curious, just to satisfy my own personal itch, about why students weren't matching at that time.

And I think being any medical doctor without a residency is very bad regardless of MD/DO/DPM etc. Will you even feel confident enough from just the 4 years of schools and clinicals alone?
Would you let someone like that "work" on you?

 

[dr.phoot]

The residency supply is always in flux. When I first joined SDN in 2007, there had just been a noticeable surplus of residency spots. When residency spots go unfilled, they sometimes close. That combined with an increasing number of students matriculating led to the shortage that I dealt with when I graduated in 2012. It's something to keep in mind because there really aren't many choices for you if you don't get a residency.

When the shortage occurred, I'm guessing GPA, class rank, extra currics are what they used as benchmarks for cut offs?

 

[bobtheweazel]

When the shortage occurred, I'm guessing GPA, class rank, extra currics are what they used as benchmarks for cut offs?

Probably so. Even now, some of the residency programs have class rank requirements. I believe a CV and letters of recommendation are generally required as well. There are GPA requirements too but they're all like bare minimum, like 2.7-2.75. The minimum rank thing looks like more of a real cutoff.

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[SLCpod]

When the shortage occurred, I'm guessing GPA, class rank, extra currics are what they used as benchmarks for cut offs?

Every year there are some very good students that end up going to match part II (formerly known as the scramble) and some of those people may not match. As stated previously, the problem comes when there are too many spots and then close because they go unfilled. Hospitals will not allow open spots to stay open. It's a matter of using money where it is needed. There are caps on schools but that isn't the problem. The problem is due to the change in match applicants every year. Look at the graduation stats and you will see this (http://www.aacpm.org/statistics/). If the class of 2017 has 50 more students entering the match than last year then there will be a shortage of spots. If there are 50 less then 50 programs may close a spot and create a problem for the following year.

All in all you need to do to the best you can and you will probably get a spot. Get good grades and be a hard worker on clerkships. As I enter into the match process I realize that there are some from the class of 2017 that won't match. I always hesitate to say that the residency shortage is no longer a problem because it is something that every pre-pod has to think about before committing to podiatry.

 

[ldsrmdude]

Every year there are some very good students that end up going to match part II (formerly known as the scramble) and some of those people may not match. As stated previously, the problem comes when there are too many spots and then close because they go unfilled. Hospitals will not allow open spots to stay open. It's a matter of using money where it is needed. There are caps on schools but that isn't the problem. The problem is due to the change in match applicants every year. Look at the graduation stats and you will see this (http://www.aacpm.org/statistics/). If the class of 2017 has 50 more students entering the match than last year then there will be a shortage of spots. If there are 50 less then 50 programs may close a spot and create a problem for the following year.

All in all you need to do to the best you can and you will probably get a spot. Get good grades and be a hard worker on clerkships. As I enter into the match process I realize that there are some from the class of 2017 that won't match. I always hesitate to say that the residency shortage is no longer a problem because it is something that every pre-pod has to think about before committing to podiatry.

As @SLCpod said, it's hard for "the powers that be" to accurately predict how many students will end up graduating each year. The goal is to have a 10% surplus every year, but it takes time to open residencies and nobody wants to go through the residency approval process to have those spots go unfilled. Trying to accurately predict how many students will be graduating four years from now is tough, I would imagine