Are we screwed for future matches?

[Confused_Often]

I’m starting at Lecom b this fall and I’m happy with the school, but after reading this forum it makes me afraid I made a mistake of going the DO route instead of retaking the mcat for a chance at MD. I’m interested in radiology, gas, and internal medicine sub specialities. Is class of 23 still in a decent position to match into these fields? It seems like there’s soooo many damn new schools opening up in a short period of time....

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[JimBone905]

For class of 23 i think we r ok. "Only" 3 new schools openong up this year and we had a really good MD match this year.

 

[SLC]

Meh, you’re fine. Sky isn’t falling. The only folks who say it is are currently in the thick of things (Med school and the accompanying stress will mess with your head); and folks with an agenda.

Work hard, learn your stuff; make board study a priority; and you’ll do alright.

 

[Ho0v-man]

No one knows the future. ~5 years ago anyone with a pulse could match obgyn, pm&r, gas, psych. Then out of the blue there’s just a nasty match one year in one those fields. You can try to guess based on match outcomes, but it’s all just that—a guess. The only constants are that peds and FM are under paid/non competitive and derm and surgical subs are impossible for most people.


The only definite is that if you reapply and fail to get in MD you will have wasted a year of physician income and, assuming you can obtain a DO acceptance elsewhere, will have even more competition bc more schools will probably open up.

Also, turning down this acceptance will likely blackball you from the cheapest DO school so getting an acceptance to another DO school if you fail to get in MD will also result in more debt on top of lost earnings.

Unless you can pump out an above average for MD mcat between now and the start of classes and have an otherwise solid app, I wouldn’t chance it personally.

 

[Confused_Often]

No one knows the future. ~5 years ago anyone with a pulse could match obgyn, pm&r, gas, psych. Then out of the blue there’s just a nasty match one year in one those fields. You can try to guess based on match outcomes, but it’s all just that—a guess. The only constants are that peds and FM are under paid/non competitive and derm and surgical subs are impossible for most people.


The only definite is that if you reapply and fail to get in MD you will have wasted a year of physician income and, assuming you can obtain a DO acceptance elsewhere, will have even more competition bc more schools will probably open up.

Also, turning down this acceptance will likely blackball you from the cheapest DO school so getting an acceptance to another DO school if you fail to get in MD will also result in more debt on top of lost earnings.

Unless you can pump out an above average for MD mcat between now and the start of classes and have an otherwise solid app, I wouldn’t chance it personally.

Ya I’m definitely not turning down my acceptance. I really like my school, but I just needed some reassurance that COCA or whoever approves of these new schools haven’t shafted current/upcoming students yet....

 

[Ho0v-man]

Ya I’m definitely not turning down my acceptance. I really like my school, but I just needed some reassurance that COCA or whoever approves of these new schools haven’t shafted current/upcoming students yet....

Oh they absolutely have shafted you, me, and everyone who’s ever tried to be proud of having DO initials after their name. They do not care about any of us and from first day of first semester your number one goal should be to succeed in spite of everything that the AOA/COCA do to try to ruin your career.

Good luck!

 

[CoomassieBlue57]

Ya I’m definitely not turning down my acceptance. I really like my school, but I just needed some reassurance that COCA or whoever approves of these new schools haven’t shafted current/upcoming students yet....

Just be prepared to go into FM. The whole point of these new schools are to produce FM physicians. The problem with that is students at these schools want to do other fields such as rads, gas, etc.

DOs will still match all the various fields in pretty similar numbers as demonstrated by the last couple of matches, but a larger portion will go into FM (because there are now more DO students). There are still plenty of unfilled FM spots to accommodate the new DO schools.

 

[madiso30]

Just be prepared to go into FM. The whole point of these new schools are to produce FM physicians. The problem with that is students at these schools want to do other fields such as rads, gas, etc.

DOs will still match all the various fields in pretty similar numbers as demonstrated by the last couple of matches, but a larger portion will go into FM (because there are now more DO students). There are still plenty of unfilled FM spots to accommodate the new DO schools.

It really sucks we have to worry about possibly being pigeon-holed into any specialty. I'm not against FM, it's one of my top choices. But I hate that at the end it may be too far fetched to do anything else. Guess we all gotta crush boards!

 

[Wjldenver]

With the proliferation of DO Schools, there is simply less room for error in regard to the match. Make sure you have absolutely no red flags because PD's are simply eliminating candidates from contention if you do. Specifically, make sure you have no board failures, and also have nothing derogatory mentioned in the Dean's Letter (MSPE). ...And if you do, it will be a much tougher road, particularly with all of the new DO Schools which the AOA/COCA seems to approve every year.

PS) Make sure you take the USMLE as well. Don't listen to any AOA propaganda that it is not important.

 

[Giovanotto]

With the proliferation of DO Schools, there is simply less room for error in regard to the match. Make sure you have absolutely no red flags because PD's are simply eliminating candidates from contention if you do. Specifically, make sure you have no board failures, and also have nothing derogatory mentioned in the Dean's Letter (MSPE). ...And if you do, it will be a much tougher road, particularly with all of the new DO Schools which the AOA/COCA seems to approve every year.

PS) Make sure you take the USMLE as well. Don't listen to any AOA propaganda that it is not important.

This right here. Tuition keeps growing, and the risk of not matching into your desired, non-FM specialty becomes higher and higher. Essentially all DOs are taking on more risk with each passing year. I think we're reaching the point where I'd really start reconsidering the DO route, but luckily your school has a tuition that is manageable, can't say the same for mine and a many other DO schools. Wish you the best of luck!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I think we're reaching the point where I'd really start reconsidering the DO route,

I think it really is going to depend on the school. Contrary to what SDN often spouts, not all DO schools are created equal and some will prepare a student far better to match successfully than others. The match lists of the established schools have honestly gotten better, not worse, in the last few years as their grads have increasingly pushed their luck in the NRMP. However the rural and new schools are having rising numbers of pre-lim matches. Going to a DO school at all will always carry some inherent risk, however some schools mitigate that much more than others. The differences in a school such as PCOM and LMU is as wide as the grand canyon.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

The DO route will remain a very safe option (as long as you are willing to do primary care) for the foreseeable future. However like it was mentioned above, there will no longer be a safety net for those with borderline applications (repeating a year, failing multiple course, failing boards, no USMLE + barely passing comlex). Therefore, we will start seeing more and more DO grads who fail to secure residency spots, who in the past could have fallen on the leftover unwanted AOA spots. Now that everything will be operating under ACGME, there will not be leftover spots, thanks to the unlimited supply of highly qualified FMGs.

It is a harsh reality future DOs will face, but it's a necessary one. It's time that we stopped shielding the incompetent while still demanding to be taken seriously and treated equally.

 

[HueySmith]

Yes. If you want to have an easier time matching anything else outside of fam med, internal med, peds, pmr, or ER, go MD. Oh, and also, DO schools command some of the highest tuition for **** rotation experiences, so go MD if you can. Oh, and also, DO bias, so go MD. Oh, and also, double boards, so go MD.

 

[dohopeful13]

Class of 2023 as well, and trust me, I've had the same concerns. It's not enough to scare me away from chasing my dream, though. I would only say reconsider if you want to do a competitive speciality. For me, I'm 24 going on 25 and it's not worth another 1-2 years of delaying my earnings/life on a chance that I MAY improve my MCAT and I MAY get into an MD program. A bird in the hand is worth...

And FWIW, I'm a LOT more worried about the prospects of 1) USMLE scores being eliminated and 2) socialized healthcare slashing wages while having a mountain of loan debt, than I am of there being too many DO students in the match. As long as board scores stay and I have a way to pay this debt, I'm fine betting on myself. To paraphrase Captain America: "This is going to work. Because I don't know what I'm gonna do if it doesn't"

 

[Jyggaswoop]

honestly I think it's more regional than anything else. New schools opening in the midwest will suck if you're going to a midwest school, where as if you live in Florida, new schools in alabama/georgia will make matters worse for you. This is based on the fact that most DO matches tend to be pretty regional.

 

[zero0]

It really sucks we have to worry about possibly being pigeon-holed into any specialty. I'm not against FM, it's one of my top choices. But I hate that at the end it may be too far fetched to do anything else. Guess we all gotta crush boards!

Not picking on you but I want to caution anyone with this mindset. Remember how we all just had to crush the MCAT? Yeah well boards is even harder to do well on. Now more than ever, students should expect to enter DO schools with the mindset of becoming an FM/IM primary care doc because that's where they'll more than likely wind up. It's kind of like going into dental school. They know that they'll probably just be general dentists unless by some miracle they wind up in the top of their class of highly intelligent and driven people and get to specialize.

 

[Chibucks15]

Not picking on you but I want to caution anyone with this mindset. Remember how we all just had to crush the MCAT? Yeah well boards is even harder to do well on. Now more than ever, students should expect to enter DO schools with the mindset of becoming an FM/IM primary care doc because that's where they'll more than likely wind up. It's kind of like going into dental school. They know that they'll probably just be general dentists unless by some miracle they wind up in the top of their class of highly intelligent and driven people and get to specialize.

To this point. It’s not like 100% of MDs are super specializing either. The majority of doctors in this country are primary care, hence, the vast majority of graduates will go into primary care.

If everyone specializes then we get a system where NPs and all that take over primary care, which nobody wants. But I’m not gonna get down that road.

Every one of us was top x% of the group for most, if not all of our lives. Statistically speaking half of us have to be in the bottom half, no matter how ‘driven’ and ‘hardworking’ you are, because everyone has those qualities to get this far. It comes down to intelligence and test taking mostly and that’s an inherent thing some people are better at

 

[Goro]

I’m starting at Lecom b this fall and I’m happy with the school, but after reading this forum it makes me afraid I made a mistake of going the DO route instead of retaking the mcat for a chance at MD. I’m interested in radiology, gas, and internal medicine sub specialities. Is class of 23 still in a decent position to match into these fields? It seems like there’s soooo many damn new schools opening up in a short period of time....

Screwed? So far, nope.
People with red flags will be screwed

 

[madiso30]

Not picking on you but I want to caution anyone with this mindset. Remember how we all just had to crush the MCAT? Yeah well boards is even harder to do well on. Now more than ever, students should expect to enter DO schools with the mindset of becoming an FM/IM primary care doc because that's where they'll more than likely wind up. It's kind of like going into dental school. They know that they'll probably just be general dentists unless by some miracle they wind up in the top of their class of highly intelligent and driven people and get to specialize.

I see your point. I've fully accepted that I'll most likely end up in primary care and I have no issue with it. I wouldn't make the $300k investment for schooling if I wasn't. I'm just saying I don't like that any one specialty is like this. I'm more just complaining about life, because this sort of thing is in every field, like you pointed out with dental school.

 

[JimBone905]

I would be more worried about the future salary of physicians and the increasing med school tuition. With things like medicare for all possibly in the near future, i personally am worried about paying off these 300k$ loans

 

[UnoMas]

Starting DO school and already despised Primary Care is bad position to be in. However, I predict ANES/Rad/IM would still be fair game for DOs in 2023, the key is to do well on the MD boards. You already got a free pass for a low/borderline MCAT, you won't get another one. Time to bust ass and study like your life depends on it

 

[Postictal Raiden]

Can't lump IM, gas and rads together. Generally speaking, Rads >> Gas > IM in term of competitiveness.

Most DO grads will be fine in 2023. I predict the match rate to remain unchanged, in the high 80's, but the overall placement rate will definitely drop. For the past few years, placement rate has been as high as 99%, but this will no longer be the case as there will no longer be AOA spots shielded from FMG's and low stat MDs

 

[Rekt]

I would be more worried about the future salary of physicians and the increasing med school tuition. With things like medicare for all possibly in the near future, i personally am worried about paying off these 300k$ loans

Every single medical student should be worried about Medicare for all. Salaries will be absolutely gutted, but all that nonsense about free college/paying student debt won't apply to any of us because we'll still "make too much". M4A is now just going to be a democratic standard in running. It'll pass eventually, just pray it holds off long as possible until your loans are paid off. Just another reason to make sure you're going into a field you like, regardless of compensation.

 

[dohopeful13]

Every single medical student should be worried about Medicare for all. Salaries will be absolutely gutted, but all that nonsense about free college/paying student debt won't apply to any of us because we'll still "make too much". M4A is now just going to be a democratic standard in running. It'll pass eventually, just pray it holds off long as possible until your loans are paid off. Just another reason to make sure you're going into a field you like, regardless of compensation.

MFA is absolutely the future one day, but there is still some resistance in the Democratic Party on it. A lot of establishment dems like Schumer and Pelosi support reform but not the single payer model proposed by Sanders' plan. It was actually leaked a few months back that Pelosi's aids were assuring health insurance lobbyists that it would not happen. The healthcare giants have a lot of skin in the game, so I wouldn't underestimate them.

As of now, single payer has to overcome 1) Trump, 2) Republican obstruction 3) "moderate" dems 4) insurance lobbyists 5) fleshing out a model that people can agree on and actually works and 6) Supreme Court challenges. Thankfully it's not as simple as AOC or Bernie waving a wand. I would guess we're probably 20 years out at least on that.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

I can't imagine MFA happening in this country. Anyone who believes it's happening is massively underestimating the influence from big pharma ad health insurance companies. These multi billion dollar mega corporations will fight nail and tooth and fill the pockets of many politicians before MFA happens.

Besides, we already have a form of MFA in existence already. Children and seniors have medicaid/medicare and the population in between has been utilizing ER's for everything from sore throats to mensural cramps to even getting a free meal and shower.

 

[321931]

Regarding the M4A conversation....

#1) Most of you guys will be graduating 4 years + 4 years residency + 2 years fellowship....which means a decade from now.

ALOT can happen in a decade and yes M4A is gaining traction. I do think it will pass in our lifetime, and yes it will ultimately effect any physician or healthcare salary.

I do think the biggest thing that will eventually let it pass is the fact that baby boomers are projected to retire within the next decade, and Gen-X/Millennials will start taking the reigns of power and it will have a higher chance of passing as our generations (gen-x/millennials) have a more favorable view of these social welfare programs. CA is already thinking of passing legislation to providing healthcare to undocumented individuals as the first ever state to do so.

Regardless- don't think it will never happen. Just look at how the decades have changed and brought social reforms. Healthcare is at a crisis and most likely will be reformed.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

I’m starting at Lecom b this fall and I’m happy with the school, but after reading this forum it makes me afraid I made a mistake of going the DO route instead of retaking the mcat for a chance at MD. I’m interested in radiology, gas, and internal medicine sub specialities. Is class of 23 still in a decent position to match into these fields? It seems like there’s soooo many damn new schools opening up in a short period of time....

This is at least somewhat in your control. I don't see gas or rads as unattainable. Sub-specialities are obviously adding another match, but still available depending on what you mean. Just be in the top half. Don't fail stuff. Take USMLE, do away rotations. Go to places previous grads have been.

As always, be ready to take that rural FM spot when it comes down to it. Cause even if you do everything right, your not the first choice of most residencies. As long as your okay with that outcome (primary care- particularly FM) then your good to go. Aim for the stars.

 

[iatros]

Few words to the OP:
1) Always be proud of being a DO. Everyone knows you have what it takes to be a good doc. If you do a great job, no one will care where you went to school.
2) Absolutely take USMLE. Take the time and put in the work to rock USMLE. This is the great equalizer. MCAT is irrelevant at this point.
3) You can do anything you want as a DO (this coming from a DO, starting Interventional rad fellowship). Work hard and doors will open. Don’t be constrained geographically. Rad is definitely wide open for DOs, even at very legit places.
4) By virtue of the fact that ~20% of physicians in the US are DOs, I think a lot of the stigma is fading away. It’s very likely that the majority of docs out there have worked with DOs and have more of a mainstream perspective (a benefit to the DO school proliferation; call it “market share” if you will...just my glass half full perspective).
5) Lots of graduates go into primary care. Lots of residency positions are in primary care. Go figure. You may find yourself in primary care by choice or otherwise. If you can’t see yourself in that role, medicine may be a gamble.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Can't lump IM, gas and rads together. Generally speaking, Rads >> Gas > IM in term of competitiveness.

Most DO grads will be fine in 2023. I predict the match rate to remain unchanged, in the high 80's, but the overall placement rate will definitely drop. For the past few years, placement rate has been as high as 99%, but this will no longer be the case as there will no longer be AOA spots shielded from FMG's and low stat MDs

You can still lump them together in terms of match rate for DOs. Rads, IM, and gas all have a match rate in the 90s for DOs. So as long as your app looks similar to your MD counterpart you’ll still match these specialties as a DO. The difference doesn’t start until you get into the surg specialties and derm.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Gloom and doom persists but not for all. The ones to worry are in the bottom third of their class and and/or have red flags. The upper third will be ok. We had a good match this year. Many DO students desire primary care. The angst over " Competetive" specialties for DOs is overblown. The key word is competetive. You have 3 yrs of med school to craft a competetive application. It's up to the student. Problem is, the other students with more competetive apps went to MDschool and the DO student must now compete against these same people....again, and they also have an MD. It can be done with lots of hard work and planning
The ones in the bottom third wont match IR or neurosurgery. So if you are inDO school and wish to match competitive specialty, get busy. One of my students is a CT surgery fellow and several in university residencies, one top 10.

 

[Solodyn]

Medicare For All = Medicaid For All.

Once the system becomes single payer.... the reimbursement will have nowhere to go but down due to government monopoly.

Medicaid rate is the lowest rate which physicians can do business.. and that is where the future Medicare rate will end up to be.. Medicaid rate.

Right now Medicaid rate pays about $25 per follow up. See 30 follow up patients a day will gross $750 a day. After paying overhead (50-60%) you will take home ~ $300 a day. That is $37.5 per hour before tax.

Work 5 days a week for 45 weeks a year.. you take home $67,500 a year. After 25% tax, you keep $50,000 which you will use to buy McMansion, private school for kids and alimony for your divorce. You will not have hardly anything for your student loan.. or retirement

Be very afraid of Medicare for All.

 

[dohopeful13]

My thing is, who is going to sign up to sacrifice their entire 20s and spend 7-10 years busting their tail to learn a craft that makes less than a middle management HR employee? There would also be a mass exodus of physicians leaving the field.

It works in Europe where 1) they still get around 6 figures and 2) they pay nothing for their tuition. 67 k a year owing 400k to the govt is not going to cut it.

 

[Feelgood MD]

I will also be attending LECOM-B in the fall. For the record, USMLE is now required in addition to COMLEX. This tells me they are not blind to the future, which is good. For the price and the relative amount of self directed study time we are getting, I really think it would be unwise to try for MD instead. Check out the match results for 2019 for Bradenton. Its looking good for the areas you are interested in. Also may be a one off but 4 derm matches this year. Even if it is an anomaly, it gives me hope. Not that I am interested in derm tho.

See you in professional attire at the end of July.

 

[Jyggaswoop]

I will also be attending LECOM-B in the fall. For the record, USMLE is now required in addition to COMLEX. This tells me they are not blind to the future, which is good. For the price and the relative amount of self directed study time we are getting, I really think it would be unwise to try for MD instead. Check out the match results for 2019 for Bradenton. Its looking good for the areas you are interested in. Also may be a one off but 4 derm matches this year. Even if it is an anomaly, it gives me hope. Not that I am interested in derm tho.

See you in professional attire at the end of July.

eh the requirement doesn't mean anything to me. any competent student should know to take both. unless the school offers resources to study for the USMLE (first aid, u world ) etc. then it would mean something

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I will also be attending LECOM-B in the fall. For the record, USMLE is now required in addition to COMLEX. This tells me they are not blind to the future, which is good. For the price and the relative amount of self directed study time we are getting, I really think it would be unwise to try for MD instead. Check out the match results for 2019 for Bradenton. Its looking good for the areas you are interested in. Also may be a one off but 4 derm matches this year. Even if it is an anomaly, it gives me hope. Not that I am interested in derm tho.

See you in professional attire at the end of July.

They require you to take USMLE, great! But do they prepare you for the USMLE is a whole different story. I have no problem with schools forcing students to take USMLE, but if their students aren't ready for such a hard test, they will be screwed even more when it come to residency applications.

 

[Stagg737]

~5 years ago anyone with a pulse could match obgyn, pm&r, gas, psych.

Not really. For psych yes, but not for the other fields. PM&R and gas have just traditionally been very DO friendly (no idea why for gas) so they may seem less competitive. OB/Gyn has never been a "pulse" field despite having probably the worst lifestyle of them all largely because it's still a cutting field even if it's considered PC.

I think it really is going to depend on the school. Contrary to what SDN often spouts, not all DO schools are created equal and some will prepare a student far better to match successfully than others. The match lists of the established schools have honestly gotten better, not worse, in the last few years as their grads have increasingly pushed their luck in the NRMP. However the rural and new schools are having rising numbers of pre-lim matches. Going to a DO school at all will always carry some inherent risk, however some schools mitigate that much more than others. The differences in a school such as PCOM and LMU is as wide as the grand canyon.

This. Idk what the match from my alma mater looked like this year, but my class had ~80% of people match ACGME and the class before mine was >70%. The problem with every DO school will be with the borderline/bad applicants, which simply exist in higher numbers at some schools than at others.

Can't lump IM, gas and rads together. Generally speaking, Rads >> Gas > IM in term of competitiveness.

True, but all of those fields are still very obtainable for a solid DO applicant and will very likely remain that way.

 

[Stagg737]

They require you to take USMLE, great! But do they prepare you for the USMLE is a whole different story. I have no problem with schools forcing students to take USMLE, but if their students aren't ready for such a hard test, they will be screwed even more when it come to residency applications.

It's not really that "hard" of a test in terms of passing (which is what it's meant to be used for), but can be a hard test to do well on though. Honestly, I thought COMLEX was a harder exam than USMLE NBMEs because of how poorly the questions were written and the "minutiae" not being true minutiae but instead completely off the wall questions that no one would know. For example, I had a legal question where every answer was a sentence in Latin. So while Step 1 will have some difficult questions, you won't see rubbish like that.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

[QUOTE="Stagg737, post: 21000194, member: 557103

True, but all of those fields are still very obtainable for a solid DO applicant and will very likely remain that way.
[/QUOTE]

You don’t need to be a solid applicant to match IM. Any DO without major red flags can match an IM program (matching solid university program is a different story). Can’t say the same about the other two fields, special radiology. Every year, many DOs match IM without a USMLE score for example. This doesn’t happen nearly as frequently in gas or rads.

 

[Stagg737]

You don’t need to be a solid applicant to match IM. Any DO without major red flags can match an IM program (matching solid university program is a different story). Can’t say the same about the other two fields, special radiology. Every year, many DOs match IM without a USMLE score for example. This doesn’t happen nearly as frequently in gas or rads.

Agree for rads. I know a few of my classmates who matched gas without a Step score though. According to charting the outcomes, in 2018 >70% of DOs without a Step1 score matched (25/35). Also average Step1 for matched DOs was only 227, so not really stellar (roughly the same as IM and lower than the 240 for rads). So not really all that competitive for a decent to solid applicant even if they are DO.

Also, disagree with the point about matching into an academic IM program. I had plenty of classmates who were solid but far from stellar (220's Step 1, no major superstar points in app but no major red flags either) who matched at solid university programs. If we're talking strong academic programs then I agree with you, but students from strong/well-established DO schools can still match into good academic (mid-tier) IM programs as long as they're not weak applicants and I can give plenty of classmates as examples.

It seemed to be getting much less competitive in recent years, but may be heading back the other direction with the merger. If you want to match at a solid gas program it seems like you need to be a solid applicant, but seems like there's weaker programs that most could match at like IM or FM. Honestly I'm not overly familiar with the field so that aspect is anecdotal for me, but imo it's moved solidly down to the low end of "moderately competitive".

Takeaway point: The sky is not falling unless you're a weak applicant or have major red flags (especially if you're coming from a new school).

 

[Ho0v-man]

Not really. For psych yes, but not for the other fields. PM&R and gas have just traditionally been very DO friendly (no idea why for gas) so they may seem less competitive. OB/Gyn has never been a "pulse" field despite having probably the worst lifestyle of them all largely because it's still a cutting field even if it's considered PC.

Pmr and gas: “DO friendly”=not competitive. They’ve both gotten more competitive due to increased numbers of applicants recently, not necessarily scores. While it is possible to match gas without a step score, the number of applicants who matched without one closely correlates to the number of AOA spots that transitioned to ACGME.* Someone who matched very well in PM&R from my school commented that she only came across one program that even cared about step. The problem is just not many slots and a lot more interest than in previous years.

Obgyn used to be as you’ve described IM in a later post. Apply broadly and you’ll probably match well with no red flags assuming your a mediocre student. A few years ago there was just randomly a terribly nasty match and the advice changed to apply everywhere if you’re below average and hopefully you’ll match somewhere. This is really the best example of these fields as to how competition can just turn on its head.

Psych: so happy we finally agree on something!

*obviously one can find examples of people matching gas w/o step at acgme programs and those with them at former AOA, but ignoring those that have transitioned to acgme makes the field seem less competitive than it is.

 

[Stagg737]

“DO friendly”=not competitive.

Just going to point out that this isn't really true. EM has become a more competitive/desirable field over the past several years and most would now consider it to be "moderately competitive". Rads is also generally considered to be moderately competitive and both are considered to be as or more competitive than OB/Gyn for MDs at this point. All have roughly the same match rate for USMDs (88-91%), but for DOs EM (match rate ~82%) is considered a far more friendly field than OB/Gyn (~61%) and friendlier than Rads (~82%).

Using "DO friendliness" to measure competitiveness is valid at the extremes/edges (most and least competitive fields/programs), but in the middle things get much more skewed and hold a lot more variance from program to program. Plus there are other factors which play roles such as geographic region (East coast is generally less DO friendly than midwest), individual programs (Cleveland Clinic is very DO friendly), and even preference for specific DO schools at some programs. This forum loves to make broad, sweeping generalizations when the reality is there's a lot more nuance and details than people think about.

 

[chillingpanda]

So basically all fields besides the super competitive ones like derm, & surgical sub specialities are still attainable for DOs for class of 23?

 

[deleted407021]

So basically all fields besides the super competitive ones like derm, & surgical sub specialities are still attainable for DOs for class of 23?

Saw a decent number of derm matches this year.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Just going to point out that this isn't really true. EM has become a more competitive/desirable field over the past several years and most would now consider it to be "moderately competitive". Rads is also generally considered to be moderately competitive and both are considered to be as or more competitive than OB/Gyn for MDs at this point. All have roughly the same match rate for USMDs (88-91%), but for DOs EM (match rate ~82%) is considered a far more friendly field than OB/Gyn (~61%) and friendlier than Rads (~82%).

Using "DO friendliness" to measure competitiveness is valid at the extremes/edges (most and least competitive fields/programs), but in the middle things get much more skewed and hold a lot more variance from program to program. Plus there are other factors which play roles such as geographic region (East coast is generally less DO friendly than midwest), individual programs (Cleveland Clinic is very DO friendly), and even preference for specific DO schools at some programs. This forum loves to make broad, sweeping generalizations when the reality is there's a lot more nuance and details than people think about.

I’m not going to ruin another thread arguing with you because you just seem to want to be right about something in any way you can.

OP, before being derailed by the above, my point was that no one can predict the competition in a few years in any field. Do your best. Your not safe now bc something is “DO friendly” bc that could randomly change overnight.

 

[MyGrainAura]

It really sucks we have to worry about possibly being pigeon-holed into any specialty. I'm not against FM, it's one of my top choices. But I hate that at the end it may be too far fetched to do anything else. Guess we all gotta crush boards!

If Step 1 goes to P/F then it won’t matter

 

[Chibucks15]

The sky has been falling for decades according to threads like this. Sure there are some concerning trends, but all it takes is some crazy legislative change or reimbursement change to completely change things.

Don’t go into medicine if you can’t handle doing primary care, because even if you’re an MD specialties aren’t guaranteed regardless

 

[Rekt]

The sky has been falling for decades according to threads like this. Sure there are some concerning trends, but all it takes is some crazy legislative change or reimbursement change to completely change things.

Don’t go into medicine if you can’t handle doing primary care, because even if you’re an MD specialties aren’t guaranteed regardless

The sky has been falling for decades argument doesn't work anymore when you account for the exponential increase in schools recently compared to 30, 20, or even ten years ago. It's a false argument.

 

[Chibucks15]

The sky has been falling for decades argument doesn't work anymore when you account for the exponential increase in schools recently compared to 30, 20, or even ten years ago. It's a false argument.

Yet the match rate has gone up? Sooooo it stands. I said concerning trends at that’s one of them. I’m more talking about getting into specific specialties

 

[Rekt]

Yet the match rate has gone up? Sooooo it stsnds

Because of AOA to ACGME conversion? Please do even one second of research before you spew your uneducated nonsense.

 

[SLC]

I guess it’s probably just the nature of having a group of people who have always been at the top of the achievements curve. But I wonder, why does everyone seem to need to go into a specialty as a Med-school undergrad?

I’d burn out so fast if I had to do a focused specialty for the rest of my life. A big part of what keeps me going is the wide variety of stuff I see and do on a regular basis.

My job really does kick-ass, but the field isn’t “competitive” so people on these threads always think it’s somehow below them.

I’m in FM; and the overwhelming majority of my colleagues are USMD’s BTW. It’s not a DO plague to go into primary care.