Are you f-ing kidding me?

[pfaction]

I worked with a professor in his lab for 2 years. I go to him for a letter of recommendation, and he just sits there. He informs me that he will not be writing me one, and his student tells me that I have not done enough work in the lab to earn my name on any paper that comes out. I ask them why and what I can do, and there's nothing I can do before I exit school.

What the **** do I do now?

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[Isoprop]

What the **** do I do now?

Hmmm... how about get an LOR from somewhere else?

 

[pfaction]

Hmmm... how about get an LOR from somewhere else?

Uh, I thought getting a LOR from a PI was absolutely necessary. I can't list this on my application, otherwise it would look bad?

 

[SavoirFaire]

You are counting on this guy for a letter of rec?

You need multiple letters. Get a bunch of letters from other people. Even if they have only talked to you a few times in their office, they can usually write a lot of positive things about you.

 

[StoicJosher]

Sorry about that. Atleast he didnt promise he will write one and not turn it in time for the deadline (happened to a friend of mine). At least you can get a letter from someone else (unless you are doing an MD/PhD). Just the silver lining.

 

[SavoirFaire]

Uh, I thought getting a LOR from a PI was absolutely necessary. I can't list this on my application, otherwise it would look bad?

No, a LOR from a PI is not necessary for any MD program that I know of. Maybe if you are applying to a PhD program where you will be doing research. But regular MD no.

You will need at the minimum 2 science professor letters to have the option of applying to most schools. I recommend 3 faculty letters (2 science profs, 1 non-science prof), 1 doctor LOR (preferably someone you shadowed), 1 (maybe 2) other letters. You can choose to have the committee compile it for you or just send them individually.

 

[pfaction]

I will be getting LORs from other people but I thought if you listed your time in a laboratory with a professor it was almost "mandated" you get a letter from him? I have all except one non-science from SavoirFaire's list. I'll have to work on non-science...

 

[Cinclus]

As long as you're not a graduate student, not having a letter from him shouldn't raise any red flags. If you are a grad student, this would be very bad news for you.

 

[BHaus9]

I will be getting LORs from other people but I thought if you listed your time in a laboratory with a professor it was almost "mandated" you get a letter from him? I have all except one non-science from SavoirFaire's list. I'll have to work on non-science...

There's only one school I can think of that either mandates or heavily suggests including LORs from all PIs with whom you've worked (Harvard), and even then, I've heard their admissions office is fairly lenient with this.

It might be nice to have a letter from this particular PI if this is your only research experience, but it's by no means required, and should not prevent you from listing the experience on AMCAS. If they don't specifically request it - that is, if you have the 2 science letter minimum covered - some schools might even prefer you NOT send it.

 

[Musclemass]

I worked with a professor in his lab for 2 years. I go to him for a letter of recommendation, and he just sits there. He informs me that he will not be writing me one, and his student tells me that I have not done enough work in the lab to earn my name on any paper that comes out. I ask them why and what I can do, and there's nothing I can do before I exit school.

What the **** do I do now?

How many hrs/week have you spent, have you kept a consistent and regular schedule?

There's more to this story that you don't know. For your own benefit, you should try to find out. You can be persistent, there's nothing to lose at this point.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Honestly, if I were you I'd tell him calmly, thank you for having me in your lab for 2 years and that he should look for another volunteer. That's completely rude and off putting, if a teacher can write you a letter for just talking to them like three times and participating in class, then this ******* can at least be happy and write a decent paragraph that you did work for them for free.

 

[pfaction]

BHaus: This is very comforting news. This is not my only research experience, but the other one was only one summer...I think this 2 year one would also be good to list.

This is my last week at school before I leave. I sent him an email around Thanksgiving, ignored. Two more, ignored. I face-to-face met with him to get rejection. His students said that there was not enough work contributed (and they are right) to get name on paper--I'm fine with that but the LOR was the blow. I spend roughly 5-10 hrs/week in their lab. Some weeks there's nothing to do (months, in fact). When there is stuff to do, it takes a long time.

Serenade: I'm going to go to him one last time and explain. If he refuses again, I've actually already left the lab but I will tell him this to his face and that'll be that. Hopefully medical schools won't call his office.

 

[futuredoc1004]

I guess the sad lesson is that we can count on nobody, especially those we believed would come through. You will be fine in spite of this d-bag.

 

[Isoprop]

Serenade: I'm going to go to him one last time and explain. If he refuses again, I've actually already left the lab but I will tell him this to his face and that'll be that. Hopefully medical schools won't call his office.

I wouldn't even do this. Do you really want a letter from this guy? You're not going to get a good letter out of him even if you get him to agree.

Don't burn any bridges either. Just leave it be.

 

[RookTookIt]

I wouldn't even do this. Do you really want a letter from this guy? You're not going to get a good letter out of him even if you get him to agree.

Don't burn any bridges either. Just leave it be.

I agree. A bad letter is worse than no letter. And it sounds like there is no way you'll come out of the conversation with a good letter.

 

[tiedyeddog]

I will be getting LORs from other people but I thought if you listed your time in a laboratory with a professor it was almost "mandated" you get a letter from him? I have all except one non-science from SavoirFaire's list. I'll have to work on non-science...

Don't worry about it, I didn't get a letter of req from one of my PIs ( I had two different experiences). No one ever asked about why I didn't have an LOR from that guy. Just get a great LOR from somewhere else.

Also, don't go begging for a letter from the dude. It's obvious he doesn't like you, for whatever reason. You don't want him writing a strongly negative letter for you. Just forget about him and move on.

Edit: You can beg him to give you an authorship. That might help you out.

 

[EBTrailRunner]

Don't worry about it, I didn't get a letter of req from one of my PIs ( I had two different experiences). No one ever asked about why I didn't have an LOR from that guy. Just get a great LOR from somewhere else.

Also, don't go begging for a letter from the dude. It's obvious he doesn't like you, for whatever reason. You don't want him writing a strongly negative letter for you. Just forget about him and move on.

+1. A weak recommendation from your PI is worse than a strong recommendation from another professor. I decided not to seek a letter from my PI and looked instead to another professor with whom I had taken a few classes and who knows me very well. I don't think it's hurt me at all.

 

[deleted307836]

Yeah, don't ask again for a letter. But try to find out WHY he isn't writing you one as that does seem like a blow. He should at least be able to give you one good reason if you've spent that much time with him.

 

[WeAreNotRobots]

Hmmm, you asked for a LOR and he told u that u don't deserve ur name on a pub??? Sounds like a misunderstanding. If u worked with someone for 2 years, I think a LOR is a fair expectation; pubs aren't guaranteed for undergrads or postbaccs by any means, though. Make sure u were clear with him about wanting a LOR.

But maybe he is just a d-bag and doesn't want to give u a LOR...it happens sometimes..just do ur best getting other LORs.

 

[Hamiltonian]

FWIW, I didn't have a letter from my PI when I applied. It did not matter one bit.

 

[gettheleadout]

Hmmm, you asked for a LOR and he told u that u don't deserve ur name on a pub??? Sounds like a misunderstanding. If u worked with someone for 2 years, I think a LOR is a fair expectation; pubs aren't guaranteed for undergrads or postbaccs by any means, though. Make sure u were clear with him about wanting a LOR.

Sounded like a bit of a non sequitur to me as well...

 

[DocGodfather]

Sorry you spent two years of your life working for a jerk. You have two years experience, so get out as soon as possible.

 

[Whatyousay]

I worked in two labs, and did not ask for LORs from either PI.

 

[chronicidal]

There's only one school I can think of that either mandates or heavily suggests including LORs from all PIs with whom you've worked (Harvard), and even then, I've heard their admissions office is fairly lenient with this.

The one other school that says something along those lines is Stanford.

 

[perpetual labor]

Sorry you spent two years of your life working for a jerk. You have two years experience, so get out as soon as possible.

This guy is an ass, and people like him are everything wrong with academic research. Undergrads (and grad students) get abused all the time.

Get out. Don't do anything that can come back to bite you in the ass. Keep your friends and others away from him.

It IS important to have a LOR from your PI. I was screwed out of a once-in-a-lifetime paid research opportunity by having a dickwad for a PI. I just wish I could get back the year I wasted in his lab.

Good Luck.

-P

 

[Danlee07]

I get that you're wanting a letter from your PI, but from your PI's perspective, he might not want to write it because he doesn't know what you did/who you are well enough. 2 years though...

5-10 hr/week for research doesn't really get much done though, unless you were just the one who cleaned and made media.

 

[mishaS]

Spit in random bottles of DMEM. Unplug the freezers. Rub the filters in the culture hoods and incubators with bacterial preps. Spray the contents of the freezers and benches with isopropanol, which works as an amazing solvent for permanent markers.

It'll feel so good.

 

[DocGodfather]

This guy is an ass, and people like him are everything wrong with academic research. Undergrads (and grad students) get abused all the time.

Get out. Don't do anything that can come back to bite you in the ass. Keep your friends and others away from him.

It IS important to have a LOR from your PI. I was screwed out of a once-in-a-lifetime paid research opportunity by having a dickwad for a PI. I just wish I could get back the year I wasted in his lab.

Good Luck.

-P

What's up with so many PI's being horrible to students working for them. I haven't been on here that long, and you're the fifth person I read about that has had a terrible experience doing research with a PI. Makes me almost not want to do research to make my app look more appealing. Are they just bitter people? What's the deal? You'd think they'd be grateful for having others help research.

 

[pinipig523]

There's got to be more to this story than meets the eye. I really find it hard to believe that a PI would not write a letter for someone who's spent 2 years volunteering. There must have been some sort of issue that went on.

 

[Slowpoke]

What's up with so many PI's being horrible to students working for them. I haven't been on here that long, and you're the fifth person I read about that has had a terrible experience doing research with a PI. Makes me almost not want to do research to make my app look more appealing. Are they just bitter people? What's the deal? You'd think they'd be grateful for having others help research.

People usually are more vocal with their frustrations. I was and still am part of the best research lab in the world! My PI actually hired me after I graduated and not to mention when I was an undergrad he helped my family when we went through some financial trouble...

There's got to be more to this story than meets the eye. I really find it hard to believe that a PI would not write a letter for someone who's spent 2 years volunteering. There must have been some sort of issue that went on.

Yeah, I agree. The fact that OP did about 5-10hrs/week is striking. What in the world can you get accomplished with 5-10hrs/week (or even less as some months OP mentioned he/she had nothing to do) in research?

 

[capn jazz]

Yeah, I agree. The fact that OP did about 5-10hrs/week is striking. What in the world can you get accomplished with 5-10hrs/week (or even less as some months OP mentioned he/she had nothing to do) in research?

it sounds like the OP was more of a lab tech. you literally can't do anything in 5-10 hours a week. what is that? two western blots?! i worked 15 hrs a week in a lab during the school year and accomplished almost nothing until i spent the summer there working 40 hours.

 

[AvidAvatar]

I'm very sorry this did not work out for you OP. That is really stinky. Also, working in a lab as an undergrad for about seven hours a week for two years, in my opinion, should be plenty to get a recommendation. They are writing about you as a whole for medical school, not as a freaking research, but whatever. As people said, don't push the issue because you don't want anything negative written about you. I am always amazed to see folks on this board getting shut down by professors when asking for LORs, I have never received anything but enthusiastic assistance from professors.

I echo not burning a bridge, even though this guy sounds like a crappy old bridge. Go try to relax for a bit and refocus to find other options. Then, hit the strip club and party for a bit, make out with a stripper, then come back to the lab when no one is there and breathe all over his sterile pipettes.

 

[pchemichem]

Although I agree there must be more to this than meets the eye, don't worry about getting a letter from this guy. I also have had about three years of working in an undergraduate chemistry lab and I did not get a LOR from the professor. Why? I just did not ask, since I already had about 5 other letters. I was only asked about it once in my interviews.

 

[IlDestriero]

BHaus: This is very comforting news. This is not my only research experience, but the other one was only one summer...I think this 2 year one would also be good to list.

This is my last week at school before I leave. I sent him an email around Thanksgiving, ignored. Two more, ignored. I face-to-face met with him to get rejection. His students said that there was not enough work contributed (and they are right) to get name on paper--I'm fine with that but the LOR was the blow. I spend roughly 5-10 hrs/week in their lab. Some weeks there's nothing to do (months, in fact). When there is stuff to do, it takes a long time.

Serenade: I'm going to go to him one last time and explain. If he refuses again, I've actually already left the lab but I will tell him this to his face and that'll be that. Hopefully medical schools won't call his office.

He did you a favor. If he was going to write you a glowing letter of recommendation, he would have. The last thing you want is to guilt him into writing you a lame letter. Cut the cord and move on. If you did something worth reporting over the 2 years, maybe you could convince him to let you put a poster together for some regional meeting.
You don't want his letter, and no medical school is calling him about anything, so don't worry. Just honestly report what you did, and figure out how to answer an interview question about what you did while there, and the implied "why didn't you publish anything in 2 years?"

 

[IlDestriero]

Yeah, don't ask again for a letter. But try to find out WHY he isn't writing you one as that does seem like a blow. He should at least be able to give you one good reason if you've spent that much time with him.

This is reasonable, but if he changes his mind, don't have him write you one. It's not going to be great. A marginal LOR is lethal, especially at the fellow and faculty level. Lethal.

 

[chiapet874]

This is why I highly recommend talking to current members of any research lab you plan on joining. You want to know what kind of environment you will be sinking a lot of your time into. You don't want to be surprised like the OP come LOR request time.

 

[pfaction]

Oh, I didn't realize there were comments. Here is "more than meets the eye":

In the past two years, he has set foot in our laboratory a total of four times. He only signs purchase orders. What do I do? Yeah, I make media, components, a few ingredients to be used in the actual experiements. He goes on vacation so there's no way to get stuff we need -- these three months during summer I put in 0 hours of work besides checking in and asking if there was anything to do -- i focused on volunteering and etc. So when I say 5-10 hours a week, that's really quite loose. But then there are weeks where all our purchases come in and I'm doing roughly 7 hours a few days in a row, like I did last Weds-Friday.

He is hit or MISS in this regard. Mostly miss.

About the publications: if they are using the products I made then I feel I should have some acknowledgement or authorship in the paper, ESPECIALLY if I get data points that are used in the paper. I wouldn't care about which number author--obviously not 1st--but yep. It's not a big deal, I can mostly write this off. About the LOR - I've gotten over it. I went by his office hours, his door was closed. So long and farewell! I've been in another lab since June and it's been sublime; averaging about the same time put in but it's with animals so i'd say it is a bit more significant.

 

[IlDestriero]

What do I do? Yeah, I make media, components, a few ingredients to be used in the actual experiements. .

About the publications: if they are using the products I made then I feel I should have some acknowledgement or authorship in the paper, ESPECIALLY if I get data points that are used in the paper. I wouldn't care about which number author--obviously not 1st--but yep. It's not a big deal, I can mostly write this off.

what does "get data points that are used in the paper" mean?
Based on what you wrote, I wouldn't give you authorship or a recommendation either. You treated it as a part time job, and he treated you like a part time employee. Unless I'm mistaken and you had some role in performing the experiments, had your own project, etc? It sounds like you stocked shelves and made media. Your description doesn't even convey any interest in the work.

 

[BiopsychStudent]

Oh, I didn't realize there were comments. Here is "more than meets the eye":

In the past two years, he has set foot in our laboratory a total of four times. He only signs purchase orders. What do I do? Yeah, I make media, components, a few ingredients to be used in the actual experiements. He goes on vacation so there's no way to get stuff we need -- these three months during summer I put in 0 hours of work besides checking in and asking if there was anything to do -- i focused on volunteering and etc. So when I say 5-10 hours a week, that's really quite loose. But then there are weeks where all our purchases come in and I'm doing roughly 7 hours a few days in a row, like I did last Weds-Friday.

He is hit or MISS in this regard. Mostly miss.

About the publications: if they are using the products I made then I feel I should have some acknowledgement or authorship in the paper, ESPECIALLY if I get data points that are used in the paper. I wouldn't care about which number author--obviously not 1st--but yep. It's not a big deal, I can mostly write this off. About the LOR - I've gotten over it. I went by his office hours, his door was closed. So long and farewell! I've been in another lab since June and it's been sublime; averaging about the same time put in but it's with animals so i'd say it is a bit more significant.

Lab techs who collect data and perform experiments are seldom given authorship on that basis, so if you're just preparing media and doing general laboratory housekeeping its unlikely you'll be given authorship (Not that your contribution is undeserving of praise or recognition, especially if you're volunteering). While it varies from PI to PI how they want to dole out authorship it is traditionally indicative of an INTELLECTUAL contribution to the project and experimental design.

That being said as a lab tech you're in a good position to design a project of your own that you COULD get authorship or a presentation out of.

Now I'm not disagreeing that the guy's an ass. Actually how well did you know him? If you didn't interact with him much maybe he felt he didn't have much to say? Also were there any PhDs or post-docs you worked closely with who you could ask?

 

[iniquus]

I like how everyone automatically took the side of the pre-med student. The work the OP describes does not warrant an authorship, and it wouldn't be a strong LOR considering the type of work and amount of work he did do. You would think after 2 years you'd get your hands dirtier in the science--take initiative with your graduate student/postdoc if the PI isn't available.

 

[Omppu27]

I feel like getting LOR's from science profs would be tough since the classes are so big (atleast at my school they are). I just finished Gen Chem 1 and i never specifically introduced myself to the teacher but he knows who i am because we have e-mail quite a lot. I also did really well in his class. Could i get one from him?


EDIT: I know it sounds ridiculous because i have never met him, but even someone above said that if you've only stopped in to someone's office once or twice that you could get a decent letter. I feel like I am on better terms with him than someone who only met with someone once or twice.

 

[pfaction]

what does "get data points that are used in the paper" mean?
Based on what you wrote, I wouldn't give you authorship or a recommendation either. You treated it as a part time job, and he treated you like a part time employee. Unless I'm mistaken and you had some role in performing the experiments, had your own project, etc? It sounds like you stocked shelves and made media. Your description doesn't even convey any interest in the work.

I did do a few experiments back in June that were used in figures of the upcoming paper. I got the values for the standard curve and spectroscopy and one or two unknowns that the graduate student purified and gave to me.

Lab techs who collect data and perform experiments are seldom given authorship on that basis, so if you're just preparing media and doing general laboratory housekeeping its unlikely you'll be given authorship (Not that your contribution is undeserving of praise or recognition, especially if you're volunteering). While it varies from PI to PI how they want to dole out authorship it is traditionally indicative of an INTELLECTUAL contribution to the project and experimental design.

That being said as a lab tech you're in a good position to design a project of your own that you COULD get authorship or a presentation out of.

Now I'm not disagreeing that the guy's an ass. Actually how well did you know him? If you didn't interact with him much maybe he felt he didn't have much to say? Also were there any PhDs or post-docs you worked closely with who you could ask?

I have my own project that the graduate students liked but he did NOT want me to do. He wanted me to simply help the graduate students when they needed it. The graduate students still want me to do it and even ordered some material so I'll probably do that after finals. Why I'm doing it? I don't know.

The graduate student said he'd have no problem writing me one and signing it but I think this holds very little weight without my professor's signature as well.

Let's be clear: the way I made the materials used and did the standard curve and all, I can talk about. I taught another graduate student who just entered the lab how to do it and I know why and how and all the processes and etc. I will still probably list it and be able to talk about it in a moderate length.

I like how everyone automatically took the side of the pre-med student. The work the OP describes does not warrant an authorship, and it wouldn't be a strong LOR considering the type of work and amount of work he did do. You would think after 2 years you'd get your hands dirtier in the science--take initiative with your graduate student/postdoc if the PI isn't available.

Graduate students are focused on whatever work they can do with the materials we have, and I help out. This was my role. I did it a lot; but we're not as busy as the other lab I am in for aforementioned reasons.

 

[ncrassa]

Authorship rules vary, as others have mentioned. In a lot of the labs I have worked at, PIs are more lenient granting authorship to postdocs and grad students because they need papers to climb the academic ladder. A general rule in my labs is that you get authorship if you generate significant [both in quantity and relevance to the paper] data over an extended period of time, OR you create a reagent like an antibody that is then widely used in the experiments for the paper. But what defines "significant", "extended", and "widely" is unfortunately vague and subjective.

OP, no matter whether the PI is being unfair, I think it's safe to say that this would not have been an outstanding letter. So maybe it's for the best that he's not writing you one.

Good luck in your new lab!

 

[TimeForCollege]

Seriously, get over it. I've had lots of people who refuse to write a rec for me, yet I don't go on sdn and whine. You can't just rely on ONE person to write you a rec.

Edit: Never mind, ignore my post. Just read the entire thread and if everything you're saying is true, then I think you have a right to be disappointed.

 

[kpcrew]

Seriously, get over it. I've had lots of people who refuse to write a rec for me, yet I don't go on sdn and whine. You can't just rely on ONE person to write you a rec.

Edit: Never mind, ignore my post. Just read the entire thread and if everything you're saying is true, then I think you have a right to be disappointed.

loool so you posted a reply without reading the thread and then read the entire thread and revised your reply.

 

[Musclemass]

This is my last week at school before I leave. I sent him an email around Thanksgiving, ignored. Two more, ignored. I face-to-face met with him to get rejection. His students said that there was not enough work contributed (and they are right) to get name on paper--I'm fine with that but the LOR was the blow. I spend roughly 5-10 hrs/week in their lab. Some weeks there's nothing to do (months, in fact). When there is stuff to do, it takes a long time.

I'm not sure why you didn't bail from this lab a long time ago. If you were doing mostly go-fer work, months went by with nothing happening, you knew you weren't contributing substantively to their work and had no contact with the PI, I'm not sure why you had any reason to expect something other than this outcome. It sounds like they were less than forthright with you along the way, and that's wrong. But c'mon, you should have realized long ago that you were wasting your time and should be doing something else.

Just as a point of clarification, in this linked thread, you say you're a pharmacy student with 1.5 years to go. You must be redirecting to med school?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=875259

 

[kami333]

Oh, I didn't realize there were comments. Here is "more than meets the eye":

In the past two years, he has set foot in our laboratory a total of four times. He only signs purchase orders. What do I do? Yeah, I make media, components, a few ingredients to be used in the actual experiements. He goes on vacation so there's no way to get stuff we need -- these three months during summer I put in 0 hours of work besides checking in and asking if there was anything to do -- i focused on volunteering and etc. So when I say 5-10 hours a week, that's really quite loose. But then there are weeks where all our purchases come in and I'm doing roughly 7 hours a few days in a row, like I did last Weds-Friday.

He is hit or MISS in this regard. Mostly miss.

If that's true I'm surprised he still has grad students.

 

[chiapet874]

Why did this thread turn into a debate over if the OP deserved to get an authorship?

There is no standard protocol for undergrads to get onto a paper; it varies too much from lab to lab and relies too much on good timing and good luck.

At face value though, based off the brief details the OP gave us- you don't deserve to be on a paper. Your work is largely menial.

As for your professor stepping into lab so infrequently- that's common in academia, but that doesn't mean your professor isn't doing work behind the scenes.

 

[Ebola4Breakfast]

If that's true I'm surprised he still has grad students.

Exactly. I get the feeling that the OP doesn't really know what's going on in the lab or how labs work. If what he says of the PI is true, there would be no grant money to fund purchase orders or manuscripts to bemoan a lack of authorship on.