Are you rethinking about going into cardiology?

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bostonguy911

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For those of you who are contemplating applying for cards fellowship, are you reconsidering giving the gloomy outlook?

CMS reduced the salaries of cardiologist by up to ~40% and these fees are here to stay. 6-7 years of training...makes me question if I am making the right choice.
 

Old news😴

That lawsuit was RE-JECTED!

http://www.theheart.org/article/1040423.do

"Court declines to hear ACC Medicare payment lawsuit
JANUARY 15, 2010 | Shelley Wood
Washington, DC - A US judge has declined to hear the American College of Cardiology's (ACC's) lawsuit protesting the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) Medicare payment cuts to physicians for certain types of cardiovascular imaging as part of the Medicare 2010 Payment Rule. The ACC announced the court decision Tuesday, in an announcement posted on its advocacy website.

According to the online announcement, a judge in the US District Court Southern District of Florida "refused to hear [the] case on jurisdictional grounds, finding that statutory language governing the Medicare program precludes judicial review of the relative value units (RVUs) and the methods for determining the RVUs in the Medicare fee schedule."

The announcement goes on to explain that the process did serve to illuminate how the CMS went about determining the 2010 Medicare cuts and "just how little the CMS knew about the practice expense survey data" used in its decision making. "We will not allow the bogus data and process to go unchallenged," the announcement declares.

In a statement provided to heartwire, ACC CEO Dr Jack Lewin said that the ACC is "deeply disappointed" and will continue to advocate for "real payment solutions based on quality outcomes and patient care."

What is "deeply troubling" about the ruling, says Lewin, is that "it sets the precedent that the CMS has complete and unchecked control over physician reimbursement for patient care even when its determinations are based on faulty data. This [raises] the question: Who's next? Today's ruling should be a warning to all physicians that anyone is susceptible to falling into CMS's crosshairs unfairly and without recourse."
 
Remember what they said in the Wizard of Oz:

"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable"

That's not happening anytime soon... hardly a gloomy outlook.

If you are looking to make money and become rich, then quit and go into something else. Medicine is not the best option.
 
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Agree with FT. If you're motivated mainly by money you probably wouldn't like Cardiology. It sounds like you aren't sure you want to spend extra years if pay not going to be highere. I think you should do what field you like since if you don't like your job it doesn't matter how much you make. If you plan on making a career of it you'll probably want to enjoy going in each day over the next 35 years.

To clarify, the 40% cuts were to some procedures like echo not across the board cardiologists' salaries. ~40% just made the headlines since it was the most dramatic.
 
do not get me wrong. Before entering medical school I have had a strong interest in cardiology. Its just very disheartening to hear such cuts in the field, and makes me think twice. Cardiologists are outraged, hundreds if not thousands of noninvasive cards are going to go out of business. This is not a small hit, you have to significantly downsize if you own a practice.

Do I have something wrong here? Money is not all I care about, I like cards a lot, but it is a factor. Heck if I am going to spend 7 years training, I sure as heck want to get compensated well. Who in their right minds would want to train that hard and have an uphill battle with insurance companies. Ortho seems great right now, and their field have been avoiding cuts for a long long time. I do not see them running into the same prob as cards.

Lastly, cardiologist are 'primary care' as well docs no since they have also trained in IM? so when the government is attempting to pay PCP's more by taking away salaries from specialties, shouldnt cards go up? IM/Cards, IM/GI, ect. I know many cards that are internists for some patients and strictly cards for others.

I would imagine there would be more concern, especially reading that so many people are concerned with which IM program to attend so they can get a good cards fellowship. Am I missing something?
 
Do I have something wrong here? Money is not all I care about, I like cards a lot, but it is a factor. Heck if I am going to spend 7 years training, I sure as heck want to get compensated well. Who in their right minds would want to train that hard and have an uphill battle with insurance companies.

I agree with this, but I am not sure if it is going to happen. There is not much certainty in life. My plan is to find something I enjoy and hope that things work out.
 
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I wouldn't assume ortho is immune. I would expect most of the higher paid specialties, like anesthesia, ortho, etc. will be on the chopping block next, if increased gov't involvement in health care comes to pass. The gov't wants to provide health care at the lowest cost possible, not pay us what we consider "fair" for our many years of training. The general public wants helath care, and they want it on the cheap...some are just cheapskates, and some truly don't have the money to pay, but all want to be taken care of. Cardiology is not primary care, so wouldn't expect much increase in our clinic reimbursements. Reimbursements for imaging procedures are being cut. I would not be surprised if the cath lab was next.
 
I am interviewing now to cards and critical care and if i get the chance to match in both im really not sure what to do. CC jobs pay over 300K and you work 15 days a week. Cards however is a big deal and even if there are cuts will still pay well and is very interesting and eveyon has CV disease. not sure what to do.
 
I am interviewing now to cards and critical care and if i get the chance to match in both im really not sure what to do. CC jobs pay over 300K and you work 15 days a week. Cards however is a big deal and even if there are cuts will still pay well and is very interesting and eveyon has CV disease. not sure what to do.

why don't you go with the specialty you find more enjoyable? Choosing a specialty based on reimbursement is a recipe for unhappiness.
 
I think this may just reflect the natural pendulum swing of any specialty. Few years back, cardiac surgery was the king of all surg. specialties and derm/rads were nowhere as competitive as it is today.. It's hard to predict what the near future holds for cardiology
 
I think this may just reflect the natural pendulum swing of any specialty. Few years back, cardiac surgery was the king of all surg. specialties and derm/rads were nowhere as competitive as it is today.. It's hard to predict what the near future holds for cardiology

This is an interesting observation. Out of curiosity, since when did radiology and derm become competitive? Its an interesting turn of events, and I would like to know how things changed. Did all hospitals have MRIs 15 years back? When did interventional and neurorad start gaining ground?

Anecdotally, in some foreign countries, subspecialties like ENT, Ophthal and Derm are STILL less competitive than Internal Medicine, Peds and General Surgery. Radio and Ortho I guess are universally competitive.

P.S. Sorry if this question appears like an attempt to hijack the thread..it isnt. I just liked what the poster above brought up in the discussion.
 
I think you should do what field you like since if you don't like your job it doesn't matter how much you make. If you plan on making a career of it you'll probably want to enjoy going in each day over the next 35 years.

Amen. Too many residents-to-be (i.e., med students) seem to dwell on picking the specialty that will yield the highest pay.

Bottom line:
Your mother probably gave you the same advice "do what makes you happy" and "make sure you do it for the right reasons".

God knows we all make mistakes, but it would sure suck to know you had the answer beforehand.
 
Medicare is a fraction of total reimbursements. But I'm glad to see there is some movement in the right direction. Cardiologists make too much money. All specialties are equally valuable and should make similar salaries IMO. The ones that work longer hours should make *proportionally* more according to how much longer they work.
 
Medicare is a fraction of total reimbursements. But I'm glad to see there is some movement in the right direction. Cardiologists make too much money. All specialties are equally valuable and should make similar salaries IMO. The ones that work longer hours should make *proportionally* more according to how much longer they work.


Not sure I agree if all sub-specialties are of equal value. Some tend to make more serious decisions that could be the difference between life and death and also don't forget that gaining procedural expertise takes a fair amount of additional stressful training...I'm not saying that the current balance with procedures being much better paid is exactly fair, but at the same time, I kind of feel it is justified that cardiologists make the most money. (This from someone who has no interest in cards as a career).
 
Medicare is a fraction of total reimbursements. But I'm glad to see there is some movement in the right direction. Cardiologists make too much money. All specialties are equally valuable and should make similar salaries IMO. The ones that work longer hours should make *proportionally* more according to how much longer they work.

No, not really. Cardiologists should make the most. In cards you deal with the most serious, time-sensitive emergencies and it requires the most procedural skill. Plus cardiologists do even more training outside of their basic fellowship to focus on interventional, EP, etc.

I am not choosing GI and Cards as subspecialties, but I definitely don't think a rheumatologist should get paid any where near the stratosphere of Cards to just pump someone full of steroids. And accounting for the proportion of hours of worked may still not do the specialty justice. Wow, never thought I would defend Cards...😕
 
Private practice should stand to lose money ONLY if evidence based guidelines (which I think CER will help determine) aren't adhered to...

i.e.

Why should a cardiologist get reimbursed for doing yearly TTE's on their patients when there is no reason to do it? Who governs that?

Why should an orthopod get reimbursed the same amount for doing a laminectomy for chronic low back pain (as opposed to an acute herniated disk w/ motor signs) when a growing amount of literature suggests there is no benefit?

Why should residents in training continue phlebotomizing their patients ad nauseam and run up gigantic bills for no reason without understanding the cost consequences of their actions?

Why should ALL specialties continue to run up a tab in the dark...not knowing how much money their tests and studies cost?

Why should hospitals get reimbursed by the DRG without any monitoring of their quality (largely)?

I really think the bottom line is that there is a tremendous amount of waste that physicians are responsible for. We order and perform tests and studies with little thought to how much they cost AND about whether they are necessary. And, there's no governing of who's ordering what...i.e. the cardiologist who stresses everyone - or - the pulmonologist who does screening CT scans on all of their smokers....

Why have evidence based medicine if you aren't going to translate it to policy?
 
Private practice should stand to lose money ONLY if evidence based guidelines (which I think CER will help determine) aren't adhered to...

i.e.

Why should a cardiologist get reimbursed for doing yearly TTE's on their patients when there is no reason to do it? Who governs that?

Why should an orthopod get reimbursed the same amount for doing a laminectomy for chronic low back pain (as opposed to an acute herniated disk w/ motor signs) when a growing amount of literature suggests there is no benefit?

Why should residents in training continue phlebotomizing their patients ad nauseam and run up gigantic bills for no reason without understanding the cost consequences of their actions?

Why should ALL specialties continue to run up a tab in the dark...not knowing how much money their tests and studies cost?

Why should hospitals get reimbursed by the DRG without any monitoring of their quality (largely)?

I really think the bottom line is that there is a tremendous amount of waste that physicians are responsible for. We order and perform tests and studies with little thought to how much they cost AND about whether they are necessary. And, there's no governing of who's ordering what...i.e. the cardiologist who stresses everyone - or - the pulmonologist who does screening CT scans on all of their smokers....

Why have evidence based medicine if you aren't going to translate it to policy?

You make good points but you are ignoring the elephant in the room - Tort Reform. Without it, unnecessary tests will continue to be ordered, unabated. That is CYA medicine for you.
 
You make good points but you are ignoring the elephant in the room - Tort Reform. Without it, unnecessary tests will continue to be ordered, unabated. That is CYA medicine for you.

Completely agree. Souljah1 makes great points (esp. the orthopod statement). But yes, as a resident I'm going go draw blood for every lab test ad nauseum because that's what's expected by the attendings-that you show that you were "complete" and didn't "miss something." Defensive medicine is a huge part of rising health care costs, but the practice is passed down from attending-->resident-->intern-->med student
 
Tort reform would help encourage physicians to practice medicine that they know they SHOULD practice, but it does not get at the root of the problem...

Providers prioritize autonomy and reimbursement rates more highly than the need to consistently deliver high quality care. We provide too much care that is not necessary. There are estimates that suggest that 20-50% of surgeries aren't necessary, 50% of X-rays for back pain aren't necessary, yearly TTEs are not necessary, stents for positive stress tests in an asymptomatic individual, the curiosity endoscopy, etc. They aren't being done b/c people are afraid of getting sued. They are getting done b/c people prioritize their technical skillset.

This is all made worse by our society that tends to think that more is always better, that quantity is better than quality (so long as the copay is affordable). People with metastatic disease are getting referred to cardiologists for ICD placement b/c of their heart failure AND the cardiologist gets reimbursed...Ridiculous on all parts.

Our healthcare system takes up greater than 15% of our GDP NOT b/c people are afraid of being sued..We have a wasteful, profit-driven system that focuses more on doing (billing is based on DRGs, and procedures, etc) as opposed to improving (quality, safety, preventive medicine, comparative effectiveness research, etc).

Don't get me wrong - I'm all for getting compensated like I deserve to be - BUT prioritizing reimbursement rates over the re-modeling of our current health care system is not sustainable and is myopic.
 
Pulmonologists giving screening CT scans to all their smokers? Cardiologists doing yearly TTEs for some unknown reason? Endoscopy only for curiosity sake?

Goodness, what hospital are you working at?

I think you make some good points about our broken health care system and I agree with most of them. But to attribute the massive amount of over testing/treatment to physicians "prioritizing their technical skillset" is a gross generalization. The practice of defensive medicine is a real problem, and to brush it off so casually is a irresponsible. Our health care dilemma is extremely complicated; there are MANY roots of the problem.
 
Pulmonologists giving screening CT scans to all their smokers? Cardiologists doing yearly TTEs for some unknown reason? Endoscopy only for curiosity sake?

Goodness, what hospital are you working at?

I think you make some good points about our broken health care system and I agree with most of them. But to attribute the massive amount of over testing/treatment to physicians "prioritizing their technical skillset" is a gross generalization. The practice of defensive medicine is a real problem, and to brush it off so casually is a irresponsible. Our health care dilemma is extremely complicated; there are MANY roots of the problem.

Talk to me in a few years.

I work at a hospital that is "academic" and "top 5". We probably perform fewer unnecessary tests compared to many community hospitals. That being said, MANY tests are done out of curiosity with little sake of changing management. It's waste. And, when reimbursement is a benefit of that curiosity, it makes it easier to do so.

Tort reform is an important issue - but it is a gross over simplification to think that if doctor's were protected against being sued then they would magically stop wasting resources. Defensive medicine is a great problem, and I saw it every day in my residency when I admitted countless bogus rule out MIs, watched some attendings cave to pressure from families, etc. BUT, physician behavior is a HUGE problem that is only partly defined by defensive medicine.

A wise man once said: The only difference between academic medical centers and community medical centers is this...Community physicians just do whatever they want. Academic physicians talk about evidence and then do whatever they want.

Good luck in the match. Medicine is a great field!
 
Talk to me in a few years.

I work at a hospital that is "academic" and "top 5". We probably perform fewer unnecessary tests compared to many community hospitals. That being said, MANY tests are done out of curiosity with little sake of changing management. It's waste. And, when reimbursement is a benefit of that curiosity, it makes it easier to do so.

Tort reform is an important issue - but it is a gross over simplification to think that if doctor's were protected against being sued then they would magically stop wasting resources. Defensive medicine is a great problem, and I saw it every day in my residency when I admitted countless bogus rule out MIs, watched some attendings cave to pressure from families, etc. BUT, physician behavior is a HUGE problem that is only partly defined by defensive medicine.

A wise man once said: The only difference between academic medical centers and community medical centers is this...Community physicians just do whatever they want. Academic physicians talk about evidence and then do whatever they want.

Good luck in the match. Medicine is a great field!

Thank you for clarifying your thoughts on this issue, as this was certainly not the implication I received from your prior posts. I think now we can now agree that the faults of our health care system are due to many different things.

Thanks for the well wishes, I think medicine is great too!
 
Not sure I agree if all sub-specialties are of equal value. Some tend to make more serious decisions that could be the difference between life and death and also don't forget that gaining procedural expertise takes a fair amount of additional stressful training...I'm not saying that the current balance with procedures being much better paid is exactly fair, but at the same time, I kind of feel it is justified that cardiologists make the most money. (This from someone who has no interest in cards as a career).

Well I disagree. You've been brainshwashed to think somehow procedures are harder skills to acquire than more cerebral clinical skills (probably the opposite is true). They don't make more "life or death" decisions, and even if they did that's not a rationale for someone getting paid more. In fact what saves people's lives and is most useful to society is preventive medicine practiced by PCPs to *prevent* having to make life and death decisions. But our health care system doesn't value that. Procedural specialists make more money because that's how our billing system evolved, it has nothing to do with how valuable these people are to society or how "hard" it is to train in a field. Somehow these have become equated in people's heads.
 
Well I disagree. You've been brainshwashed to think somehow procedures are harder skills to acquire than more cerebral clinical skills (probably the opposite is true). They don't make more "life or death" decisions, and even if they did that's not a rationale for someone getting paid more. In fact what saves people's lives and is most useful to society is preventive medicine practiced by PCPs to *prevent* having to make life and death decisions. But our health care system doesn't value that. Procedural specialists make more money because that's how our billing system evolved, it has nothing to do with how valuable these people are to society or how "hard" it is to train in a field. Somehow these have become equated in people's heads.

I agree that preventive medicine has the most benefit, but it requires very little skill, just perseverance. We're talking about titrating blood pressure and diabetes meds and knowing what the current screening guidelines are and counseling patients on smoking cessation and better diet...While it is true many physicians do a poor job at all of these things, it isn't for a lack of intelligence or skill...it is just that a lot of physicians don't care enough to do something so boring, well. (unfortunately.) I would argue a motivated med student or an RN can do just a good a job at many of these tasks.
 
I agree that preventive medicine has the most benefit, but it requires very little skill, just perseverance. We're talking about titrating blood pressure and diabetes meds and knowing what the current screening guidelines are and counseling patients on smoking cessation and better diet...While it is true many physicians do a poor job at all of these things, it isn't for a lack of intelligence or skill...it is just that a lot of physicians don't care enough to do something so boring, well. (unfortunately.) I would argue a motivated med student or an RN can do just a good a job at many of these tasks.

Maybe primary care how it's now being practiced in our screwed up system where every pimple is referred to a specialist, thus sucking out more money from the system as more referrals = more unnecessary procedures (stenting comes to mind). The fund of knowledge a pcp needs to have mastery over is theoretically far greater than that of a specialist. You have to be familiar with the presentation and treatment of every common disease and a lot of rare ones too. Again, I think a large part of the reason it is perceived a "boring" is because it's low paying and low prestige. It's very difficult to combat that mental prejudice when you've been "raised" that way your whole educational life. I mean, how can something like GI where the decision tree is basically two-branched (to scope or not to scope) possibly be considered more "interesting" than primary care where you have a potentially infinite array of diseases? And you're looking up people's butts all day? I find it very hard to believe it has anything to do with something other than money.
 
Maybe primary care how it's now being practiced in our screwed up system where every pimple is referred to a specialist, thus sucking out more money from the system as more referrals = more unnecessary procedures (stenting comes to mind). The fund of knowledge a pcp needs to have mastery over is theoretically far greater than that of a specialist. You have to be familiar with the presentation and treatment of every common disease and a lot of rare ones too. Again, I think a large part of the reason it is perceived a "boring" is because it's low paying and low prestige. It's very difficult to combat that mental prejudice when you've been "raised" that way your whole educational life. I mean, how can something like GI where the decision tree is basically two-branched (to scope or not to scope) possibly be considered more "interesting" than primary care where you have a potentially infinite array of diseases? And you're looking up people's butts all day? I find it very hard to believe it has anything to do with something other than money.

I agree primary care itself can have a wide scope...But when you say primary care has potential great benefits, you're really only talking about the stuff I mentioned....Yes, you can do joint injections, drain a perulent maxillary sinus, make that diagnosis of GERD that is causing chronic cough and asthma, and stick a needle into a hordeolum that won't go away. But that part of primary care does not save lives.
 
For those of you who are contemplating applying for cards fellowship, are you reconsidering giving the gloomy outlook?

CMS reduced the salaries of cardiologist by up to ~40% and these fees are here to stay. 6-7 years of training...makes me question if I am making the right choice.

still much better than cardiac surgery
 
New 20% medicare cuts will make procedural specialities more charming. And pcp and non procedural specialities salary with 21 % cut on clinic note will make non procedural specialites further less compensating
 
Talk to me in a few years.

I work at a hospital that is "academic" and "top 5". We probably perform fewer unnecessary tests compared to many community hospitals. That being said, MANY tests are done out of curiosity with little sake of changing management. It's waste. And, when reimbursement is a benefit of that curiosity, it makes it easier to do so.

Tort reform is an important issue - but it is a gross over simplification to think that if doctor's were protected against being sued then they would magically stop wasting resources. Defensive medicine is a great problem, and I saw it every day in my residency when I admitted countless bogus rule out MIs, watched some attendings cave to pressure from families, etc. BUT, physician behavior is a HUGE problem that is only partly defined by defensive medicine.

A wise man once said: The only difference between academic medical centers and community medical centers is this...Community physicians just do whatever they want. Academic physicians talk about evidence and then do whatever they want.

Good luck in the match. Medicine is a great field!

Agree completely. Ive talked about this a lot with different attendings / residents... I think tort reform would help to an extent, but more on the order of the 0.5-1% that the CBO talks about. If you think cardiologists are going to stop doing yearly echos because of tort reform then you're crazy. They are going to stop when the insurance company stops paying for them or if we go to a system of fixed yearly reimbursements for a certain disease.
 
While I can imagine general cards becoming a bit more subject to the abuses endured by primary care physicians, I believe that interventional and EP will be just fine. I'm far more concerned at this point about the alleged equivalent of "30 Head CTs per year" to these subspecialists. This may have been a twisted selling point for the metal skull caps, or whatever they are. Any opinions?
 
Well I disagree. You've been brainshwashed to think somehow procedures are harder skills to acquire than more cerebral clinical skills (probably the opposite is true). They don't make more "life or death" decisions, and even if they did that's not a rationale for someone getting paid more. In fact what saves people's lives and is most useful to society is preventive medicine practiced by PCPs to *prevent* having to make life and death decisions. But our health care system doesn't value that. Procedural specialists make more money because that's how our billing system evolved, it has nothing to do with how valuable these people are to society or how "hard" it is to train in a field. Somehow these have become equated in people's heads.
With all due respect, you sound very naive and misinformed. Cardiac procedures are very technical, take years to master, and do save lives. Primary PCI for STEMIs and NSTEMIs unequivocally save lives, are done at all hours of the day and night, and require considerable expertise. Diagnostic angiography is the single most valuable tool in cardiology for assessing prognosis in CHD, and despite what the media might want you to think, is more than just placing stents in people who don't need them. Right heart catheterization, usually done in conjunction with coronary angiography, is very useful in evaluating the hemodynamics of valvular heart disease, pre and post cardiac transplant recipients, and for intracardiac shunting of blood. Transesophageal echocardiography is a very challenging skill to master, is an invaluable tool for evaluating valvular heart disease, and for looking for Atrioventricular/interatrial septal defects/aneurysms. Nuclear cardiology is a well validated tool for risk stratification and for assessing myocardial viability. Pacemaker implantation is a very technical skill to acquire, and is clearly very clinically useful. Echocardiography is the most utilized, and frankly useful, test in cardiology. Its value cannot be disputed intelligently. All of the above procedures require skill, take many years to master, and are performed by Cardiologists who have spent an additional 3-5 years post internal medicine residency in training. Certainly these tests are overutilized in today's medical environment, but please do not imply that the cardiologists are the sole factor for this overutilization. Lets not forget that internists/generalists/surgeons/etc represent the majority of referrals for these tests. So while I do believe that preventative medicine is underutilized and very important, to suggest that procedure-related specialties, Cardiology for example, don't earn their keep, and don't make life or death decisions is quite frankly a stupid declaration. Go spend a night in a hospital, and the next time you want an echo to rule out Tamponade in the middle of the night, or an angiogram on an unstable patient, or a TEE to rule out a large ASD on a patient you're treating for a stroke, or are confused by an ECG that says "anterior ST elevation" on the readout, please remember your initial statement. Perhaps you can consult a generalist, who is probably at home sleeping, to discuss the differential diagnosis. So yes, the GI doc who is called at all hours of the night to fix some unstable, acute, upper GI bleed on a dying pt. with alcoholic cirrhosis is, in fact, providing a value above and beyond discussing the CAGE questionaire in clinic. The cardiologist who does an emergent bedside TEE to evaluate suspected acute mitral insufficiency on a patient with flash pulmonary edema, hypotension, and an aggressive predilection towards death, is providing a valuable service, above and beyond that which a generalist is capable. These guys and gals earn their money. If you disapprove, don't consult us.
 
With all due respect, you sound very naive and misinformed. Cardiac procedures are very technical, take years to master, and do save lives. Primary PCI for STEMIs and NSTEMIs unequivocally save lives, are done at all hours of the day and night, and require considerable expertise. Diagnostic angiography is the single most valuable tool in cardiology for assessing prognosis in CHD, and despite what the media might want you to think, is more than just placing stents in people who don't need them. Right heart catheterization, usually done in conjunction with coronary angiography, is very useful in evaluating the hemodynamics of valvular heart disease, pre and post cardiac transplant recipients, and for intracardiac shunting of blood. Transesophageal echocardiography is a very challenging skill to master, is an invaluable tool for evaluating valvular heart disease, and for looking for Atrioventricular/interatrial septal defects/aneurysms. Nuclear cardiology is a well validated tool for risk stratification and for assessing myocardial viability. Pacemaker implantation is a very technical skill to acquire, and is clearly very clinically useful. Echocardiography is the most utilized, and frankly useful, test in cardiology. Its value cannot be disputed intelligently. All of the above procedures require skill, take many years to master, and are performed by Cardiologists who have spent an additional 3-5 years post internal medicine residency in training. Certainly these tests are overutilized in today's medical environment, but please do not imply that the cardiologists are the sole factor for this overutilization. Lets not forget that internists/generalists/surgeons/etc represent the majority of referrals for these tests. So while I do believe that preventative medicine is underutilized and very important, to suggest that procedure-related specialties, Cardiology for example, don't earn their keep, and don't make life or death decisions is quite frankly a stupid declaration. Go spend a night in a hospital, and the next time you want an echo to rule out Tamponade in the middle of the night, or an angiogram on an unstable patient, or a TEE to rule out a large ASD on a patient you're treating for a stroke, or are confused by an ECG that says "anterior ST elevation" on the readout, please remember your initial statement. Perhaps you can consult a generalist, who is probably at home sleeping, to discuss the differential diagnosis. So yes, the GI doc who is called at all hours of the night to fix some unstable, acute, upper GI bleed on a dying pt. with alcoholic cirrhosis is, in fact, providing a value above and beyond discussing the CAGE questionaire in clinic. The cardiologist who does an emergent bedside TEE to evaluate suspected acute mitral insufficiency on a patient with flash pulmonary edema, hypotension, and an aggressive predilection towards death, is providing a valuable service, above and beyond that which a generalist is capable. These guys and gals earn their money. If you disapprove, don't consult us.

A little defensive, are we?
 
With all due respect, you sound very naive and misinformed. Cardiac procedures are very technical, take years to master, and do save lives. Primary PCI for STEMIs and NSTEMIs unequivocally save lives, are done at all hours of the day and night, and require considerable expertise. Diagnostic angiography is the single most valuable tool in cardiology for assessing prognosis in CHD, and despite what the media might want you to think, is more than just placing stents in people who don't need them. Right heart catheterization, usually done in conjunction with coronary angiography, is very useful in evaluating the hemodynamics of valvular heart disease, pre and post cardiac transplant recipients, and for intracardiac shunting of blood. Transesophageal echocardiography is a very challenging skill to master, is an invaluable tool for evaluating valvular heart disease, and for looking for Atrioventricular/interatrial septal defects/aneurysms. Nuclear cardiology is a well validated tool for risk stratification and for assessing myocardial viability. Pacemaker implantation is a very technical skill to acquire, and is clearly very clinically useful. Echocardiography is the most utilized, and frankly useful, test in cardiology. Its value cannot be disputed intelligently. All of the above procedures require skill, take many years to master, and are performed by Cardiologists who have spent an additional 3-5 years post internal medicine residency in training. Certainly these tests are overutilized in today's medical environment, but please do not imply that the cardiologists are the sole factor for this overutilization. Lets not forget that internists/generalists/surgeons/etc represent the majority of referrals for these tests. So while I do believe that preventative medicine is underutilized and very important, to suggest that procedure-related specialties, Cardiology for example, don't earn their keep, and don't make life or death decisions is quite frankly a stupid declaration. Go spend a night in a hospital, and the next time you want an echo to rule out Tamponade in the middle of the night, or an angiogram on an unstable patient, or a TEE to rule out a large ASD on a patient you're treating for a stroke, or are confused by an ECG that says "anterior ST elevation" on the readout, please remember your initial statement. Perhaps you can consult a generalist, who is probably at home sleeping, to discuss the differential diagnosis. So yes, the GI doc who is called at all hours of the night to fix some unstable, acute, upper GI bleed on a dying pt. with alcoholic cirrhosis is, in fact, providing a value above and beyond discussing the CAGE questionaire in clinic. The cardiologist who does an emergent bedside TEE to evaluate suspected acute mitral insufficiency on a patient with flash pulmonary edema, hypotension, and an aggressive predilection towards death, is providing a valuable service, above and beyond that which a generalist is capable. These guys and gals earn their money. If you disapprove, don't consult us.

Good post.
 
Maybe you should re-evaluate the real reason why you want to go into Cardiology???

I am in the camp that if lots of $$$$$ is the primary objective, then one should be in the Financial sector, NOT medicine.
 
Maybe you should re-evaluate the real reason why you want to go into Cardiology???

I am in the camp that if lots of $$$$$ is the primary objective, then one should be in the Financial sector, NOT medicine.

You probably already know this, but not everyone in the financial sector makes 6 figures, where as damn near every physician does. We don't even have to talk about job security. There's also more autonomy as you don't usually have as clear defined a boss as you do in the corporate world.

People can say all they want about how you shouldn't go into medicine for the money but for people who want a handsome, steady income, few professions can beat medicine.

If we all just wanted to heal and touch people, I suspect IM would be a lot more competitive right now.
 
There are some good points made on both sides, but I agree somewhat with wrx.
I'm actually a cardiology fellow, and I didn't realize until I was a fellow how really difficult it is to do a good job in the cath lab. It's not like you just put in the catheter, stick a random stent up there, and press a button to deploy it...there's a ton that goes in to picking the right equipment, the right wires,the right stent and to see the right place to put it in there, pick the right IV meds to give and minimize the patient's contrast load, radiation exposure, etc. Interventional cards definitely deserved to be a high earning specialty, and they do work a ton. This is coming from someone unlikely to go into interventional cards. There is no doubt that what is done in the cath lab saves lives. And cardiologists have been at the forefront of new research and created new treatments that have saved lives and dropped the death rate from cardiovascular dz in the past decades (I think by 29%?) while at the same time our nation got fatter and more sedentary. So that is an accomplishment.

I do think that cardiology as a specialty is more taxing to train and practice in than some other specialties, and should be paid more than a lot of the other IM specialties. This is particularly true for interventional cards and EP, because honestly to be any good at these you usually have to do 3 years IM, 3 years cards and then 2 more of the subspecialty. That's a long damn time, and the hours suck, to be honest.

However, I do agree that there are too many caths being done. There are too many random blood tests and MRI's being ordered by primary docs too, though. You can't pin it all on one specialty.

I do think that it's fair to have debate about how much a cardiologist should be paid, but it shouldn't be the same as rheum or endocrine...I think you need to pay people for the stress of doing it, the extra hours worked, the coming in in the middle of the night. Otherwise not enough people would want to do it. I honestly don't care much about money or going into private practice, so I'd do cards anyway even if we earned less, but I think we have to acknowledge reality.
 
This is the reason the gov't gave for cutting cardiolgists' reimbursement.

Jonathan Blum, director of the government's Center for Medicare Management, says the agency is bound by law not to increase spending when making reimbursement decisions each year. That means the agency must rob Peter to pay Paul — or the cardiologists to pay the internists and family physicians — to boost payment rates for long "undervalued" primary care services, Blum says.
He says the agency relied on a survey showing that the cardiologists can absorb the payment cuts. The lawsuit claims the survey was flawed and unrepresentative of their real costs.

I know cardiologists took the cuts since Jan 1, 2010. So when are they planning to increase primary care reimbursement? Or is the extra money being used to build tunnels for salamanders(Vermont)/turtles(Florida) to cross the road without being hit?
 
I heard second hand that they gave the money to increase optho payments.

One of the optho residents was saying that their lobby is just a stronger lobby than the ACC.

Anyone else hear that?
 
I think, as is so often the case, both sides of this little debate are partially right. Certainly highly-specialized, technical interventionalists deserve higher compensation than general internists. However, I'm not sure they need to be compensated at a differential in some cases of 5-6x. And the reality for the purposes of this particular thread is that for good or ill, CMMS probably agrees with me.

In a practical sense as well, you as cardiologists need competent, smart generalists out there to manage patients appropriately, refer them to you appropriately, and make you comfortable that your patients will be managed appropriately when they return to PCP care. Can you imagine the patients your waiting room will be filled with when the NP's take over primary care? "26 y/o M without PMH referred for 30 seconds' CP and SOB while mowing the lawn in 105 degree heat. Please eval for stress/cath."
 
I think, as is so often the case, both sides of this little debate are partially right. Certainly highly-specialized, technical interventionalists deserve higher compensation than general internists. However, I'm not sure they need to be compensated at a differential in some cases of 5-6x. And the reality for the purposes of this particular thread is that for good or ill, CMMS probably agrees with me.

In a practical sense as well, you as cardiologists need competent, smart generalists out there to manage patients appropriately, refer them to you appropriately, and make you comfortable that your patients will be managed appropriately when they return to PCP care. Can you imagine the patients your waiting room will be filled with when the NP's take over primary care? "26 y/o M without PMH referred for 30 seconds' CP and SOB while mowing the lawn in 105 degree heat. Please eval for stress/cath."

I agree with you that NPs will never fulfill the role of a good internist.

I don't think the current differential in salary is excessive if you're comparing apples to apples. A private internist who serves the same population as a private noninterventional cardiologist will make about half to 1/3 as much as a NI-cardiologist (200K vs $450 to 600K). If you're talking about internist vs interventional cardiologist then it's a different matter since the latter works hours comparable to a surgeon and undergoes an equally extensive training period and so rightfully makes a surgeon's salary.

Most people exaggerate this difference by comparing an internist serving a medicaid population (low $100k) to a Int. Cardiologist serving celebrity clientele (upwards of $1 mil). My personal belief is that among physicians serving similar patient populations, the income difference is not as drastic as most would have you believe. The slashing of cardiologist salaries will only decrease the number of residents interested in the specialty and create a shortage of cardiologists in the coming years when the fast-food generation matures to the age ripe for CAD and CHF.
 
Medicare is a fraction of total reimbursements. But I'm glad to see there is some movement in the right direction. Cardiologists make too much money. All specialties are equally valuable and should make similar salaries IMO. The ones that work longer hours should make *proportionally* more according to how much longer they work.

A fraction? I dont consider over 50% a fraction. And with more healthcare dollars being controlled by gov't reimbursements, even more will be involved.
 
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