Argosy (schaumburg) vs Chicago School of Professional Psychology

[keshavarzi]

Hey guys, I just got accepted from both schools, The chicago school of Professional psych and Argosy (masters)_.

Argosy has somewhat of a joint program where the masters leads to the 3rd year Psy.D whereas you would have to formally apply from the masters to the Psy.D at the Chicago School.

Im having trouble deciding. Schaumburg told me they matched 79% on APPIC last year vs. chicago school saying they matched 82%. Not sure where to go. I may save some time by going to schaumburg, can anyone shed some light on the reputation of both and which is better?

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[edieb]

I don't understand why ppl don't get it: you need to find out what percent go to APA-accredited internships, not simply what percent matched. If the schools don't break down the match rate (bad sign already) into what percent of their sutdents obtained APA-accredited internships versus non-APA, you need to call them and ask.

Doing a non-APA internship is a big strike against you and you will not be able to apply for the upper tier jobs. If you don't believe me, look at the APA's classifieds at APA.ORG

Most employers REQUIRE an APA accredited internship

 

[Ollie123]

Maybe it isn't my place to say this, but was it really necessary to bump two old threads and post a new one all asking the exact same thing? I understand its an important decision for you, but it doesn't exactly endear you to us (or at least to me) as far as being generous with the advice.

That being said, edieb makes a good point - if they have roughly equal APPIC match rates but one has better APA match rates, its pretty much a no-brainer.

 

[keshavarzi]

sorry guys for the bother. It is indeed important for me.

Just for those who did want to know........chicago school sits at 49% APA-accreditted vs Argosy (schaumburg) at 33%.

So it is definitely worth the extra year of study to go to the Chicago school with the better APA internship placement? Sorry to be a bother.

 

[RileyG]

absolutely. I agree with everyone else. Go with Chicago School. 1/3 vs 1/2 I think it's a no brainer...of course it's alot easier for us since our futures aren't dependent on it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

From what I've heard, Chicago has the better rep. compared to Argosy Chi. Obvious YMMV.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

If you are going into straight clinical, I don't know that it matters. Both schools will make you apply after you complete the MA, APA does not allow a straight admission regardless of what you were told. It is more likely that Schaumburg allows for a linear transfer of credits. Check the course numbers for MA and PsyD and see if they are the same. If you are going into Forensic or Neuro, go to Schaumburg as they have an organized curriculum for each. I think they have health as well.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Does an organized curriculum really matter (for a specialty). . . other than for marketing (from the school's vantage point)?

I'd think WHOM you work with would be more important.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

I think so. Division 4o and the Association for Doctoral Education in Clinical Neuropsychology (ADECN; i.e. "a defined, sequential neuropsychology curriculum") make several points with regard to curricula that is organized and sequential with structured learning outcomes. This is also true more broadly within the HCG at all levels. This is less explicitly stated for Forensics and Health. However, in my mind and the APA any program specialty or otherwise without developed outcome goals is not an organized learning process and can't be said to develop students along domains. Rather they become idiosynchratic to the faculty that teach the course.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

In neuro, if we continually seek to define the specialty as substanitively different from Clinical, what outcomes are we basing that on? Who you trained under? Should we pick our top 50 neuropsychologists and say everyone they train is a neuropsychologist and they alone? Should we, like the APA CoA actually define courses, training experiences and broad outcome measures or let people do what they want? I think the days of "guild model" training are numbered. Just my opinion...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In neuro, if we continually seek to define the specialty as substanitively different from Clinical, what outcomes are we basing that on? Who you trained under? Should we pick our top 50 neuropsychologists and say everyone they train is a neuropsychologist and they alone? Should we, like the APA CoA actually define courses, training experiences and broad outcome measures or let people do what they want? I think the days of "guild model" training are numbered. Just my opinion...

My point is that just because a program has a set of classes, doesn't mean a person should look there above a place that has an informal setup, but with good people. My program has a pretty decent concentration in neuro, but I think it is a balance between good faculty and range of classes.

 

[Ollie123]

Actually our most recent accreditation review (2004? Can't remember when it was) said there was too much focus on coursework and students had too many required classes - their recommendation was to cut down the coursework and up the focus on other aspects of training. Whether that was meant to apply to specialties I can't say.

This may be school/program model dependent, or have changed in the last 3 years. And of course n=1. Just thought I'd share that CoA isn't necessarily emphasizing coursework. I agree that having set standards for a breadth of experience is a good thing, I just don't think classwork is necessarily the best answer to that. Classwork is just such a small part of what people should be doing in grad school...its obviously necessary to have as a background, but its definitely shouldn't be the focal point in my eyes.

I will agree with T4C though, that basing a decision on whether a school decides to call it a "concentration" when someone takes class x, y and z, or just offers course x y and z is not a good way to go.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I think an aspiring neuropsychologist in graduate school is well served to look at the faculty at a program and count the number of neuropsychologists, acquire a neuropsychogist mentor, do neuropsychology research and clinical work, and take neuro coursework electives (as rec'd by div 40). Going to a professional school just because they have named their track, neuro, makes little sense to me.

Though what if the prof school has the neuropsychologists, mentor, etc.? I'd go for the funded program, but if that didn't work out there may be other options out there.

 

[deleted75966]

Sure. I agree with you T4c.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

OK, every body slow down for a second. First, the OP gave two choice and I stand by my opinion that between the two, Schaumburg has two boarded NP and 6 NP faculty, with health and rehab. They have a 21 hour curricula that includes a one year practica and research requirements in NP. If others want to argue that this is not a reasonable program compared to CSPP, I'm happy to listen. This came from Div 40 (and I just called a colleague of mine in Chicago).

T4C, offered what sounded "to me" like a statement regarding guild training, which I now read as an issue about the particular professional school (I think). Jon offered what I also read as a commentary on a professional school (though perhaps it was both that and his opinion of training in NP as well).

If you leave the particular school out of it, the field of NP has and is making every effort to establish organized training experience (this includes coursework, research, applied training, etc. NOT just coursework). Their are seperate CPT codes for NP and seperate requirements for the use of that distinction in many states, so I see this as an issue. I'm not stating that it should be retroactively applied to current or previous students. But, this is the agenda in the NP Synarchy. so, you don't have to take my word for it.

Finally, the COA comment is beyond me. The committee has 18-20 competencies within it's structure for accreditation. These can't be met by coursework alone. They must include "an organized and sequential training". This means, if you look at "Assessment" - a school must demonstrate mutliple direct and indirect, internal and external measures for competency. For example:
Coursework:
Cog Assessment
Obj Assessment
NP Assessment
Battery
Dx Practica - this could make up direct measures

Comp exams
Yearly Evals - this could be internal and indirect measures

Prac Rating Scales
Supervisor feedback
Capstone case presentation - this could be external and direct

Internship Rating Scales
EPPP - Domain Five
Alumni Feedback
Advisory Board - this could be external and indirect feedback

If a program uses only coursework to evaluate a competency, they will be crucified by APA and if their outcome measures are poor (attrition > 6%, internship placement < 95%, Licensure < 80%, etc) they will have problems. I'm not sure what else to tell you about this.

The reality (for me only) is that given the choices of the OP, I stand by my opinion. Given the state of the field of NP, I stand by my opinion on training.

I am wrong often (as my wife will attest)....

 

[Ollie123]

Maybe I was misinterpreting what you said. I was replying to your first post where you said "Organized curriculum" I was interpreting this as a reference to coursework-only, as it sounds like others were. I know there are plenty of schools out there that offer "concentrations" in everything under the sun because they offer 2-3 classes on a topic and decide to attach a label to it.

It doesn't sound like that's what you meant, so I don't think we are in disagreement. I'm definitely in agreement for schools having set standards for these things, I just thought you were saying that "We offer a neuro concentration if you take these 3 courses" trumped "We don't have a label for it, but have all necessary neuro classes, 3 prominent neuro labs with lots of grant-funded research, and some great practicum sites".

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Okay....back to the topic.....

 

[keshavarzi]

If you are going into straight clinical, I don't know that it matters. Both schools will make you apply after you complete the MA, APA does not allow a straight admission regardless of what you were told. It is more likely that Schaumburg allows for a linear transfer of credits. Check the course numbers for MA and PsyD and see if they are the same. If you are going into Forensic or Neuro, go to Schaumburg as they have an organized curriculum for each. I think they have health as well.

Indeed as you said its not a straight admission but rather the courses are equivalent so they transfer over. I.e two years worth of courses transfer over leaving 3 years for the Psy.D.

 

[Shelly M]

Hi my name is Shelly. I want to go into the Forensics Program but I am unsure of which school is better between Argosy and The Chicago School of Professional Psychology. I have tried to find out information to help me decide and I stumbled upon this forum. I was hoping someone could shed some light upon this.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

You can check APA Div 21 website. CSPP has an MA in Forensic and ISPP-Schuamburg has a Certificate within the PsyD program so they are two different animals.

 

[ipsychologist]

I was excited and happy to take courses at Argosy, made A's on a few classes. Since I was waiting for my transcripts, i took those classes. I had completed the classes and was paying off my previous school's debt. Once I paid my debt, i was basically kicked out of Argosy and my classes that I had completed with A's had disappeared. I called Argosy and they said since it took too much time, they thought that i quit. This was only 5 months ago. I thought that students could do this. i thought Argosy created this University for people like me (busy full-time working in another country).

They tell me that i dont have to pay for the classes but the classes that I took...... i have to take the classes again!!!

Im lucky in this sense, but it was a waste of my time. There are other problems that i had with Argosy.

Sorry to say, but i have to stop working on my degree as im in another country (im native Texan but working abroad). I hope UTA Austin or other REAL universities have online degree programs.

There is no quick way in getting a degree. And i thought long and hard about it and decided that i would land a better job with a degree from a state college rather than a company-like University.

I feel really upset about this and am shocked to know that the APA sponsors Argosy. Does the APA really know what is going on!? I think that Argosy should be investigated. I have some emails that show Argosy failed to meet their end. Should I get legal with this or just move on? I lost no money (except for texts) but i lost a lot of time and passion for now. Dont get me wrong with this but i feel a little traumatized from this experience. What would you do?

No matter how you look at Argosy, there is something evil about it. For state universities, i find nothing wrong.

Either dine at a fancy restaurant (state university) or McDonald's (Argosy).

 

[JackD]

Well i live near Schaumburg, so i can tell you that the argosy campus there is about twenty feet away (literally) from the second largest mall in the united states. So if you are into shopping and overpriced, novelty restaurants and that sort of thing, that could be something to keep in mind.

Really i am just biased when it comes to the CSPP since i almost had an anger stroke while driving around that area of Chicago last year. I hear the school is pretty good but that area is so difficult to get around in. If you are easily frustrated, i suggest hanging out in the suburbs at argosy.

 

[DeseanJackson]

IS ARGOSY UNIVERSITY CHICAGO OR SCHAUMBURG GOOD FOR UNDERGRAD PROGRAMS?!

I want to do psych and my friend wants to do business management. We were both looking into argosy either in chicago or schaumburg...any help here please?

 

[kcm146]

i have a question- do all the vets on this board get sick of answering the same inquiries over and over?

I'll spare you some grief and just say that if you want to find support for PsyD programs, ESPECIALLY FSPSP programs, SDN is not the place for you. if you don't even feel like doing the research it takes to figure that out by looking at recent forums, I doubt graduate study will be appealing.

sorry if that sounds harsh. ive been doing data extraction all day and its making me the slightest bit grouchy

 

[cara susanna]

I dunno, it depends. If the person is asking because they know what they want to hear and our response doesn't give them that, that gets frustrating, but otherwise I don't mind.

 

[PHD12]

I dunno, it depends. If the person is asking because they know what they want to hear and our response doesn't give them that, that gets frustrating, but otherwise I don't mind.

I don't mind because I think it's confusing to prospective students when these programs are APA Accredited. There is also generally no data on median debt or employment unlike for law schools or MBA programs.

 

[JeyRo]

To be fair, the most recent inquiry in this thread is about going to Argosy or CSPP for undergrad programs, not for a PsyD. So, probably isn't even a question necessarily appropriate for this section of SDN, right?

 

[KillerDiller]

IS ARGOSY UNIVERSITY CHICAGO OR SCHAUMBURG GOOD FOR UNDERGRAD PROGRAMS?!

I want to do psych and my friend wants to do business management. We were both looking into argosy either in chicago or schaumburg...any help here please?

Undergrad degrees in psych are not worthwhile because of the psych courses alone, they are worthwhile because they represent a well-rounded liberal arts education. (I suppose you could argue they aren't worthwhile at all, but that's another thread.) You are unlikely to get a well-rounded education at Argosy because they don't offer much in terms of coursework outside of psych. If you want to go to grad school for psychology, programs like Argosy will put you at a disadvantage if you are applying to anywhere except...well...programs like Argosy. If you're thinking that it would be ok to go to grad school at Argosy, see every other post.

 

[aagman01]

CSPP has better APA match rates and is at least a not-for-profit school. Argosy is a for-profit school, under the auspices of the Education Management Corporation (a subsidiary whose largest shareholder is Goldman Sachs). If your incapable of getting into a university doctoral program and insistent on attending a doctoral program in professional psychology, CSPP seems the way to go.....