"Arizona Republicans File Bill to Punish Abortion Doctors with the Death Penalty"

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So your punishment for someone who took another person’s life and who is serving a life sentence and already will never get out of prison is to tell them they’re not going to get out of prison even longer? That’s like saying infinity plus one. I’d love to see you tell the family of the prison guard that your punishment for their mom or dad’s murderer is to “add more time to their sentence.”

Sure i'll tell them, i have no problems with that. Death penalty is a garbage answer for this. Transfering to max security prison with limited contact is better

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It's as good an argument as any. America's position on the value of life basically boils down to "f*** around and find out." People on death row are finding out

Right, but it doesn’t matter what America’s position is. “This group of people thinks it’s fine” isn’t really a valid argument for doing something.
 
I never said it was the plurality of opinion, though among Jews it likely is a soft majority as most take religion as non-literal. In either case I think the key point I'm trying to make is that this is all a personal experience. It should remain so, without spilling over into our legal definitions which ideally should be strict and impartial to doctrines of faith.

Agreed.
 
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Well, a lot of it is because religion adapts to the circumstances. Also because a lot of it is spirituality that needs interpretation. Either way there's a reason why most of our people see it as entirely metaphorical, cultural, and entirely as what it was intended to be a mechanism for binding a people to shared experience.

Either way, it's all good fiction. At least the Talmud as a whole offers some decent philosophy. The torah is largely a canon story that teaches cautionary tales and lofty goals.

I disagree. I think the Bible is a way for God to show himself and how He is. The story is how God and man became separated through sin and how God strove to bring man back to him, while showing us parts of his nature. Yes, people try to warp it to try and conform their god to a box that they want, but that doesn’t change the underlying truths. I don’t expect that to be politically correct or popular, but I’m not called to be either.
 
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I didn’t say the only answer is the death penalty. I asked what your response would be, and your response was basically just try to not let them do it again. Not good enough for me.

My central point is to get rid of death penalty completely for any and all cases. What the prisons and courts should do instead is effectively everything else including solitary confinement
 
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Sure i'll tell them, i have no problems with that. Death penalty is a garbage answer for this. Transfering to max security prison with limited contact is better

Lol wow. That is unbelievable that you’d have zero problems telling my kid that you’re not going to do anything about the person who murdered me. That is some next level indifference.

Also, there is a fairly convincing body of evidence that solitary or mostly solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment. So you aren’t okay with killing them, but you’re okay with subjecting them to cruel and unusual punishment for life?
 
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My central point is to get rid of death penalty completely for any and all cases. What the prisons and courts should do instead is effectively everything else including solitary confinement
But solitary confinement is argued by many to be cruel and unusual, as it has real and lasting psychiatric and physical sequelae. You’re okay with subjecting someone to cruel and unusual punishment for the rest of their life?
 
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Lol wow. That is unbelievable that you’d have zero problems telling my kid that you’re not going to do anything about the person who murdered me. That is some next level indifference.

Also, there is a fairly convincing body of evidence that solitary or mostly solitary confinement is cruel and unusual punishment. So you aren’t okay with killing them, but you’re okay with subjecting them to cruel and unusual punishment for life?

Living in prison is worse than death so i'm fine. 8th amendment also shows death penalty is effectively illegal
 
But solitary confinement is argued by many to be cruel and unusual, as it has real and lasting psychiatric and physical sequelae. You’re okay with subjecting someone to cruel and unusual punishment for the rest of their life?
Dude the death penalty is also cruel and unusual. Get rid of the death penalty, then i'll agree that solitary confinement would need to go.
 
Living in prison is worse than death so i'm fine. 8th amendment also shows death penalty is effectively illegal

Being alive in prison isn’t worth than death to almost anyone else. And the 8th amendment effectively says that solitary confinement is unconstitutional. So what do you do with someone serving life in prison who murders a prison guard? Or another prisoner serving time for a nonviolent crime?
 
Dude the death penalty is also cruel and unusual. Get rid of the death penalty, then i'll agree that solitary confinement would need to go.

How is it cruel and unusual if it is done painlessly to someone who has violated someone else’s right to life?
 
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Being alive in prison isn’t worth than death to almost anyone else. And the 8th amendment effectively says that solitary confinement is unconstitutional. So what do you do with someone serving life in prison who murders a prison guard? Or another prisoner serving time for a nonviolent crime?

You rehabilitate them
 
Can you reform a serial murderer? What about a serial child rapist? Do you believe that actions have consequences?

I'm not a criminal psychologist. I'll defer the answer to them. A life of incarceration at least offers the potential for it.
Sure. I think what you're trying to say is considered a platitude however.
 
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I personally take issue with painting everyone who is pro-life as some sort of abuser of the poor or woman hater. My wife and I are very pro-life, but we would never judge a woman who got an abortion for any reason, nor would we judge anyone who performs them. It’s not man’s job to judge. Even if I think abortion is murder (and I don’t up to a point), I’m not God. I’m not here to condemn anyone.

I know a lot of pro-life people who think this way. Pro-life does not automatically mean anti-choice.
 
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I personally take issue with painting everyone who is pro-life as some sort of abuser of the poor or woman hater. My wife and I are very pro-life, but we would never judge a woman who got an abortion for any reason, nor would we judge anyone who performs them. It’s not man’s job to judge. Even if I think abortion is murder (and I don’t up to a point), I’m not God. I’m not here to condemn anyone.

I know a lot of pro-life people who think this way. Pro-life does not automatically mean anti-choice.

I take issue with pro lifers passing laws banning abortion
 
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There's no such thing as a painless execution

What? If they are completely under general anesthesia, they aren’t feeling anything.


And what if they can’t? What should happen to the guy who murders, is “rehabilitated” and then murders again?
 
You might want to distinguish a bit. It is completely possible to be pro-life and not abuse anyone.
Ok, I’ll accept some people truly care about the longterm outcomes of people post-birth. However, many are what the original article describes: a bunch of authoritarian nutcases who want to execute doctors and women over a legitimate medical procedure. Say no to the American Taliban.
 
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Ok, I’ll accept some people truly care about the longterm outcomes of people post-birth. However, many are what the original article describes: a bunch of authoritarian nutcases who want to execute doctors and women over a legitimate medical procedure. Say no to the American Taliban.

Pro-life and anti-choice are different. I will admit that many people who claim to be the former are really the latter. But just like not everyone who is pro-choice is pro-abortion, not everyone who is pro-life wants to control women.
 
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What? If they are completely under general anesthesia, they aren’t feeling anything.



And what if they can’t? What should happen to the guy who murders, is “rehabilitated” and then murders again?

Can you tell psychological pain? What if they're suicidal and you grant them death? Why are you assuming the justice system is right and didn't execute an innocent?

Keep rehabilitating them.
 
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Can you tell psychological pain? What if they're suicidal and you grant them death? Why are you assuming the justice system is right and didn't execute an innocent?
You’re just moving goal posts around.
Keep rehabilitating them.
Lol really? Yes let’s keep subjecting children to child rapists because maybe next time they won’t rape anyone.
 
I disagree. I think the Bible is a way for God to show himself and how He is. The story is how God and man became separated through sin and how God strove to bring man back to him, while showing us parts of his nature. Yes, people try to warp it to try and conform their god to a box that they want, but that doesn’t change the underlying truths. I don’t expect that to be politically correct or popular, but I’m not called to be either.

Except we know that the history of the Bible literally is full of stories that are metaphorical and not literal. There was no great flood or a great ark with 2 animals of each kind, hell the story is unoriginal. The foundations of human kind clearly did not begin with 2 humans born of dirt and ribs. Human beings did not used to live to 600 years old. The original chapters were written in a different context during which the ancient Hebrews were quazi-polytheistic and thus read entirely different to the ones when Temple Judaism formed and it was purely monotheism. We're not even sure if Exodus was an entirely historical event as there's a sparsity of evidence of mass Hebrew migration into Egypt. And so on.

But that's the thing. Those things don't matter. It's about teaching our stories of our ancient learnings and knowledge. Stories are how we as primative humans communicated our wisdom and our abilities to survive in a harsh world that was filled with mystery. It's how we passed on our cultural identity and made sense of things.

So no. It doesn't change the underlying truths of the tales. But the world around them has changes and their context and content is read differently. The stories no longer need to be read to fill the mystery of the darth of knowledge. But rather to teach us that we strive as a people to grow and have struggled through experiences that have made us who we are. They are our stories which connect us to our people.
 
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You’re just moving goal posts around.

Lol really? Yes let’s keep subjecting children to child rapists because maybe next time they won’t rape anyone.

No it's the fundamental argument against death penalty. It's a permanent, irreversible decision made by flawed courts. That is far worse than solitary confinement.

What? They're in prison until fully rehabilitated. Psychiatrists aren't bad in their jobs
 
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Except we know that the history of the Bible literally is full of stories that are metaphorical and not literal. There was no great flood or a great ark with 2 animals of each kind, hell the story is unoriginal. The foundations of human kind clearly did not begin with 2 humans born of dirt and ribs. Human beings did not used to live to 600 years old. The original chapters were written in a different context during which the ancient Hebrews were quazi-polytheistic and thus read entirely different to the ones when Temple Judaism formed and it was purely monotheism. We're not even sure if Exodus was an entirely historical event as there's a sparsity of evidence of mass Hebrew migration into Egypt. And so on.

But that's the thing. Those things don't matter. It's about teaching our stories of our ancient learnings and knowledge. Stories are how we as primative humans communicated our wisdom and our abilities to survive in a harsh world that was filled with mystery. It's how we passed on our cultural identity and made sense of things.

So no. It doesn't change the underlying truths of the tales. But the world around them has changes and their context and content is read differently. The stories no longer need to be read to fill the mystery of the darth of knowledge. But rather to teach us that we strive as a people to grow and have struggled through experiences that have made us who we are. They are our stories which connect us to our people.

The word of God being from God and stories in Genesis being allegory are not mutually exclusive. Rashi himself says that the stories could be completely metaphorical and it wouldn’t change anything because the book comes from God and is the story of our relationship with Him.
 
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Right, but it doesn’t matter what America’s position is. “This group of people thinks it’s fine” isn’t really a valid argument for doing something.
What is legal and what is just are often separate things. We're a nation of laws with a legal system, not a nation of justice with a justice system

Basically my take is, "it is what it is," and I don't see that changing any time soon regardless of moral arguments
 
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No it's the fundamental argument against death penalty. It's a permanent, irreversible decision made by flawed courts. That is far worse than solitary confinement.
You make a lot of assumptions in your arguments, and you move goalposts. The more assumptions you have to make, the less solid your argument is.
What? They're in prison until fully rehabilitated. Psychiatrists aren't bad in their jobs
Well my nephew managed to fool three different facilities into thinking he was rehabilitated before proceeding to continue using drugs and committing felonies. There are a number of examples of people being “rehabilitated” only to have them reoffend pretty quickly. I would be livid if one of my kids was assaulted by someone who was previously in prison for child rape and was let out.
 
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You make a lot of assumptions in your arguments, and you move goalposts. The more assumptions you have to make, the less solid your argument is.

Well my nephew managed to fool three different facilities into thinking he was rehabilitated before proceeding to continue using drugs and committing felonies. There are a number of examples of people being “rehabilitated” only to have them reoffend pretty quickly. I would be livid if one of my kids was assaulted by someone who was previously in prison for child rape and was let out.
Please tell me how that post contained assumptions.
 
What is legal and what is just are often separate things. We're a nation of laws with a legal system, not a nation of justice with a justice system

Basically my take is, "it is what it is," and I don't see that changing any time soon regardless of moral arguments

You keep making the same argument lol. My point is that just because something is done and people are generally okay with it isn’t a valid argument for it being done. Just repeating “it is what it is” isn’t a valid argument.
 
Please tell me how that post contained assumptions.
You literally said:


It's a permanent, irreversible decision made by flawed courts. That is far worse than solitary confinement.

other than the words permanent and irreversible, everything you said is an assumption.
 
You make a lot of assumptions in your arguments, and you move goalposts. The more assumptions you have to make, the less solid your argument is.

Well my nephew managed to fool three different facilities into thinking he was rehabilitated before proceeding to continue using drugs and committing felonies. There are a number of examples of people being “rehabilitated” only to have them reoffend pretty quickly. I would be livid if one of my kids was assaulted by someone who was previously in prison for child rape and was let out.
i agree. people tend to forget you can’t really fix those with personality disorders. especially those with severe symptoms. i don’t think we really need to death penalty people but i don’t think those unpalatable to society should be out and about and allowed to reproduce. unfortunately we cannot require everyone’s brains nor should we try if it is futile. need lifetime confinement in psych ward or jail or something like escape from NY.
 
The courts are flawed is a fact. How? Innocent people being falsely convicted and executed exist. That is a horrible unforgivable punishment

You are assuming every court is flawed and that every death sentence must therefore be flawed or suspect.
 
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The courts are flawed is a fact. How? Innocent people being falsely convicted and executed exist. That is a horrible unforgivable punishment
everything in life is flawed to some extent. but it’s the best we have right now
 
everything in life is flawed to some extent. but it’s the best we have right now

Right, but how many innocent people being executed is acceptable? Is it better to execute some tolerable amount of innocent people or not execute anyone so that no one innocent is killed?
 
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You are assuming every court is flawed and that every death sentence must therefore be flawed or suspect.
Yes because an innocent person falsely executed destroys the value of death sentence. You can free imprisoned people. You can't bring a dead person back to life
 
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Right, but how many innocent people being executed is acceptable? Is it better to execute some tolerable amount of innocent people or not execute anyone so that no one innocent is killed?
better to banish them.
 
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