Army oral surgery with mediocre class rank

[mikeguy101]

I have recently gotten interested in pursuing Oral Surgery in the Army but I am a little worried that I might be wasting my time/energy taking the NBME this summer and everything that goes with becoming a competitive applicant. From what I have read and heard is that you need to be around top 25% of you class to have a shot. Does anyone know of someone who was selected for an oral surgery residency with a middle or bottom half of the class rank?

I am aware you can do a 1 year AEGD to help improve your application but as far as I know there is no form of OS internships in the military like in the civilian world that you can do and then have a much higher chance of placing the following year. I would love to do oral surgery but I also would like to be realistic about my expectations going in. Is there a realistic shot for being selected within the first few years or is my best bet doing my time in the army then doing an internship and civilian oral surgery residency?

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[coolslugs]

I heard you are not even competitive for a 1 year AEGD slot if you are in the bottom half of the class rank...not sure about OS.

 

[del Sol DOHC]

I am a senior dental student graduating in a few weeks. I have a friend in my class who is an Army HPSP student that was selected for an OS residency. He has a 3.15 GPA and is ranked 40 something out of 85. He was not prior service. CBSE exam score was something like 64-70, he had a bunch of extracurriculars, some research, and did an externship at an Army OS clinic. He had a passion and made it happen, even though his grades/rank weren't great. It is definitely possible, and you should apply.

 

[agent2362]

I have recently gotten interested in pursuing Oral Surgery in the Army but I am a little worried that I might be wasting my time/energy taking the NBME this summer and everything that goes with becoming a competitive applicant. From what I have read and heard is that you need to be around top 25% of you class to have a shot. Does anyone know of someone who was selected for an oral surgery residency with a middle or bottom half of the class rank?

I am aware you can do a 1 year AEGD to help improve your application but as far as I know there is no form of internships like in the civilian world that you can do and then have a much higher chance of placing the following year. I would love to do oral surgery but I also would like to be realistic about my expectations going in. Is there a realistic shot for being selected within the first few years or is my best bet doing my time in the army then doing an internship and civilian oral surgery residency?

"but as far as I know there is no form of internships like in the civilian world that you can do and then have a much higher chance of placing the following year."

-False. I completely disagree with this statement. You can do a 1 year internship at most OMFS programs around the country and essentially do the same job as a first year resident, as well as get paid the PGY-1 salary. I would personally say this is SIGNIFICANTLY better than doing doing an AEGD or GPR if you are on the civilian side of things, because you actually get to do what a first year resident does and you (and the program director) will be able to see if you have what it takes. Unfortunately, the military has no such option.

IMO, the NBME CBSE is a ridiculously difficult test and should be the single most important factor for selection, by a good measure. Rank at a dental school is incredibly variable (as is undergraduate GPA) and I strongly hope that the military residency directors utilize this new test effectively. One program director mentioned that an 80+ on the NBME would make up for any class rank issues. However, do realize that an 80+ score is 2.5-3 standard deviations above the mean for this test.

 

[mikeguy101]

agent2362,

I believe you misunderstood what I said. I am very aware that an internship is by far the best thing you can do to improve your resume, however you can not do one in the military and so an AEGD is one of the best things you can do to improve your resume while in the military. Sorry if that wasn't clear as I would definitely do an internship if I could while in the military.

 

[agent2362]

I think among the best things you can do in the army at least is ....(not necessarily in order of importance)
1. Get a solid score on the NBME
2. Do an AEGD and rank high at the AEGD as well as impress the OS faculty.
3. Get as much OS experience as possible
4. get the Expert field medical badge (EFMB) when you are active duty. This badge does absolutely nothing to further your understanding of ANY specialty, but it looks extremely good on an application. Don't ask me why...its just an army thing. Its like the medical equivalent of doing ranger school if you were an infantryman...except all the medical lanes are completely outdated and semi-useless. However you do get paid to seek the badge, so eh why not.

I'm not entirely thrilled with some of the rumors (and maybe that's all they are) about dental students getting chosen for AEGDs. One story claims that a person who matched OS did an AEGD during his 'snowbird' year, which would make a complete waste of an AEGD spot since he is going into OS. Additionally, I work in a very large army dental clinic and even though I did not do an AEGD, most of the brigade dentists have done AEGDs and they are among the laziest dentists in our high capacity clinic. Therefore since you typically are on an amalgam line or exam line for 80-90% of army dentistry, I'm not sure if doing an AEGD does you a whole lot of good-- unless you can remember everything you learned in your AEGD 4 years later after little to no practice of those skills. Ha, makes me glad I didn't decide to do an AEGD.

 

[agent2362]

Here is one idea.... if you are relatively young.

1. get as much OS experience while you are in the military.
2. use the 3-4 yrs you owe to take the NBME and crush it. (75+ = 2 SD above the mean. I would definitely call that crushing the test...at least for a dentist/ dental student)
3. Apply you last year of service to BOTH army and civilian. (you can also apply previous years to army, just to see if you get in).
4. If you don't get into either, but have a good NBME then an internship at an OMFS program should suffice to get you in the following year to a civilian program.

After 3-4 years between you and your dental school mediocre class rank, I think time will make it a non-issue if you have done well on the NBME (70-80+).

Conventional army dental wisdom would say spend a year deploying, do an AEGD, do the EFMB. Deploy again for the heck of it, and maybe the second or third time we will accept you. I personally find that frustrating and a poor use of time to deploy specifically to increase your chances of specializing. Deploy for other reasons, but not that. I would rather spend a year of absolute suck in an OMFS internship than waste time not getting more significantly more oral surgery experience (and yes I know you pull a fair amount of teeth downrange, but you essentially just are a sick call dentist when deployed.) My overall point is that I am more committed to the field of oral surgery than I am to the army. If the army accepts me first into OS then I will go. But if the civilian side accepts me first (or simultaneously) then I am going that route.


All this being said...DEFINITELY APPLY and take the NBME too (and you need to have started studying yesterday for that test).

 

[mikeguy101]

Thanks for the replies and the insight into army dentistry.

Agent2362- If I understand you correctly even those who did a 1 year AEGD are still on the amalgam line 80-90% of the time? I had a friend who did the navy and he didn't do an AEGD primarily for the reasons you listed, so I was curious if that was that case in the army as well.

 

[agent2362]

Thanks for the replies and the insight into army dentistry.

Agent2362- If I understand you correctly even those who did a 1 year AEGD are still on the amalgam line 80-90% of the time? I had a friend who did the navy and he didn't do an AEGD primarily for the reasons you listed, so I was curious if that was that case in the army as well.

Yes, the needs of the army come first (as they well should). The guys with the AEGDs are in the same row as everyone else, do all the same things. They may be allowed to do an extra procedure or two if they want to on their specialty without any supervision. I didn't do an AEGD so I can't do crown lengthening unsupervised, but I can do it with the periodontist 'supervising' and checking my work after I finish. We get one specialty day a week to do whatever we want (endo, prosth, perio, OS) when things slow down, but most clinics only allow 1/2 per week of 'specialty' work (aka...normal dentistry). Other days you do exams every 5-10 minutes/patient, all day.

 

[AirborneDentist]

I would like to chime in on this somewhat...

After sitting on the board this year as the board recorder...I may be able to add some insight:

EFMB is a good thing...but not as important as a Ranger Tab.
Grades are important for Oral Surgery. The phone interview is important as well.
One year residents are not all doing amalgams all day. Many of them go to be in a brigade slot, where their extra skills are utilized. I am not sure where agent2362 is located, but that is not the norm. Many of them are doing additional things. Agent2362, I will gladly talk to you about this. What you are seeing is not the norm.
Additionally, talk to those dentists and ask them if their residency was beneficial, even if they are doing amalgams now, and I guarantee you they will say yes. They are now a better dentist after doing the residency.

Education is the most important thing in your career. Always look to get more of it...whether it be a one year, specialty, etc. Once you complete it, that cannot be taken away from you Additionally, the education you will gain is priceless...and the Army is paying you to do it.

Please feel free to ask me any other questions.

 

[mikeguy101]

Thanks for your input AirborneDentist.

Have you known of anyone to match into oral surgery with a middle to low class rank? If so what were some things that helped them to make up for a low class ranks and/or bad grades?

How much weight does a good/bad NBME CBSE score carry now that students are required to take it?

 

[AirborneDentist]

Hello,

Any sort of a score/number is a huge thing. Because many schools do not have GPA or class rank..and board scores are P/F...it is hard to differentiate one guy from another. Therefore, interviews are important...as well as the CBSE score. It is an objective number...so that will help or hurt you.

If you have a middle to low class rank, you can do well in the other areas and have a better chance. However, you have to keep in mind the demands of an oral surgery program. It is very challenging and very focused around medicine. If I were choosing people for a program, I am going to pick those that excelled in their grades, as they are more likely to excel in the OS program. I know I am speaking in generalities, but without much more to go on with an applicant, that is what is used.

I hope that helps...if you have additional questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

 

[straightteeth]

I am trying to figure out what is my class ranking on the transcript; It only indicated 2nd Quartile 157 students. Please help, thank you

 

[umkcdds]

I would like to chime in on this somewhat...

After sitting on the board this year as the board recorder...I may be able to add some insight:

EFMB is a good thing...but not as important as a Ranger Tab.
Grades are important for Oral Surgery. The phone interview is important as well.
One year residents are not all doing amalgams all day. Many of them go to be in a brigade slot, where their extra skills are utilized. I am not sure where agent2362 is located, but that is not the norm. Many of them are doing additional things. Agent2362, I will gladly talk to you about this. What you are seeing is not the norm.
Additionally, talk to those dentists and ask them if their residency was beneficial, even if they are doing amalgams now, and I guarantee you they will say yes. They are now a better dentist after doing the residency.

Education is the most important thing in your career. Always look to get more of it...whether it be a one year, specialty, etc. Once you complete it, that cannot be taken away from you Additionally, the education you will gain is priceless...and the Army is paying you to do it.

Please feel free to ask me any other questions.

considering how many OMS residents have quit or been kicked out over the past few years, maybe they should stop looking at crap like Ranger Tabs and EFMB and focus on something that will predict success.

 

[wodehouse]

If you have 3 weeks to spare during one of your quarter breaks, use your ADT to do an externship at an Army OMFS clinic. I used the end of summer break after my 3rd year. I scored some great experience in an Army OS setting and a recommendation for my application. Bonus: take a record PT test while you're there and show them you're fit.

 

[USArmyHPSP]

Bonus: take a record PT test while you're there and show them you're fit.

DO NOT under any circumstance take a for the record PT test. All ADT orders are published saying that you should take a DIAGNOSTIC test. Do not, DO NOT disobey your orders by taking a "For the Recrod" test. If you should fail or not meet height weight standards you will be flagged. While you are flagged you can have "no favorable action". ADT is considered to be a favorable action. So here's the catch-22: You are flagged for missing the PT test by one push-up. You go and work out for two months and now can do 10 more push-ups than necessary. However, the only orders you are allowed as a HPSP student are ADT orrders. You can't have ADT orders because you're flagged and you can't get the flag lifted until you are on military orders to take a PT test.

 

[AirborneDentist]

DO NOT under any circumstance take a for the record PT test. All ADT orders are published saying that you should take a DIAGNOSTIC test. Do not, DO NOT disobey your orders by taking a "For the Recrod" test. If you should fail or not meet height weight standards you will be flagged. While you are flagged you can have "no favorable action". ADT is considered to be a favorable action. So here's the catch-22: You are flagged for missing the PT test by one push-up. You go and work out for two months and now can do 10 more push-ups than necessary. However, the only orders you are allowed as a HPSP student are ADT orrders. You can't have ADT orders because you're flagged and you can't get the flag lifted until you are on military orders to take a PT test.

Agreed...the payout is nowhere near the risk!

 

[AirborneDentist]

considering how many OMS residents have quit or been kicked out over the past few years, maybe they should stop looking at crap like Ranger Tabs and EFMB and focus on something that will predict success.

Agreed. The grades/class rank and the like are usually the main factors. The extra Army stuff is only a very small portion that speaks to the overall officer. I was not making a statement that they were big factors, I was clarifying the previous response above mine. Academics carry a larger priority.


BTW, congrats on AA!