Army v Navy

[DD214_DOC]

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I know it's already a huge rivalry, but what does the Army offer that the Navy does not?

 

[militarymd]

I know it's already a huge rivalry, but what does the Army offer that the Navy does not?

You won't have to go to sea.

 

[DD214_DOC]

milMD,

Believe it or not, I do respect your opinion on here. The Army and Navy both seem to have their pros and cons. If you were to do it over again, and still did HPSP, would you have chosen the Army over the Navy, knowing what is going on in the desert?

My largest reservation with the Army is knowing that there are docs right across the street from my brother in law in Iraq. His area was under near-constant attack with mortars and small-arms fire until the Iraqis started killing each other last week. It amazes me that the Army put their docs in the middle of the ****. I have also heard of docs going on combat patrols for some reason. I guess the days of keeping personnel like that in the rear are long gone.

It seems a few months at sea might be a better alternative.

 

[militarymd]

There are Navy docs there also.....so the only difference is ....you won't have to go to sea.

 

[DD214_DOC]

There are Navy docs there also.....so the only difference is ....you won't have to go to sea.

Gotcha.

 

[usnavdoc]

Through the Army you have a much better chance at going straight trough your training rather than doing a GMO tour.

 

[backrow]

Army has more residency options
Navy has better places to live after graduation (San Diego, Pensacola, Jax, etc) Army you could end up in BFE (Ft. Riley KS, etc).

 

[pgg]

My largest reservation with the Army is knowing that there are docs right across the street from my brother in law in Iraq.

Heh. All of the Marines' docs are Navy. There are quite a few Marines in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are Navy surgical teams all over the place too. Everyone gets to go to Iraq.

Most Navy deployments (via the Marines or S/STP billets) are 7 month tours though, whereas the Army tours are mostly yearlong. I have seen a few Army reserve docs doing 90 day tours though.

I have also heard of docs going on combat patrols for some reason. I guess the days of keeping personnel like that in the rear are long gone.

Physicians doing combat patrols = 99.32% pure bull****. Seriously. I don't know where people get this crap. 🙄

That .68% non-bull**** is my random guess of how many docs are doing combat patrols because they're ******s or ex-grunts themselves with the stupid idea of proving themselves or something. I'm sure that someplace in Iraq there's a commander who's stupid enough to tell his doc to hike through town playing medic, and a doc stupid enough to do it. There may be a few cases where this has happened, but it's the mind bogglingly stupid exception that proves the rule. Key word: stupid.

If the O-5 infantry officer tells the O-3 medical officer to go on a patrol, the O-3 medical officer just has to (a) politely object with a rational argument for why it's a stupid idea, and if that doesn't work (b) call the O-5 or O-6 doc up his medical chain who will drop whatever he's doing to go tell the O-5 infantry officer's O-6 commanding officer to square his idiot grunt away.

Physicians are frequently misused in the military, but most COs wouldn't let a physician tag along on a patrol even if he asked ... physicians are too valuable and they would be liabilities because they don't know the first thing about patrolling.

It seems a few months at sea might be a better alternative.

The odds of a Navy doc going to sea are relatively low. The majority of ships don't have physicians. I've met a number of senior Navy docs who've never set foot on a ship.

As for Army vs. Navy - here's where my own bias comes out. 🙂 If you want to spend time with the infantry, I'd pick the Navy. Not to say that the average Army grunt unit is bad, but the average Marine grunt unit is definitely a cut above. The only happy deployed Army docs I've met have been with hospitals or with SF units ... I would not want to be attached to most of the rank & file Army units I've dealt with. From the perspective of a Marine GMO who's supported deployed Army units & detachments that didn't have their own doctors ... well, with all respect, they're Americans serving honorably and they're our brothers, but the difference in atmosphere and professional ability is significant.

The upside to the Army is that you're much, much more likely to go straight through from internship to residency training.

 

[MC4]

My BN Surgeon went on patrols all the time. My BN CDR wanted the best possible medical care forward in the event that an evac bird could not launch due to weather or was shot down. While he could not do much more than a combat medic, it gave everyone a warm fuzzy. We had either the BN Surgeon or PA out on every major combat patrol.

 

[militarymd]

While he could not do much more than a combat medic, it gave everyone a warm fuzzy. We had either the BN Surgeon or PA out on every major combat patrol.

That's BRILLIANT.

We don't have a bullet proof vest for you, so just wear your regular vest and pretend like it's a bullet proof vest.....

 

[DD214_DOC]

My BN Surgeon went on patrols all the time. My BN CDR wanted the best possible medical care forward in the event that an evac bird could not launch due to weather or was shot down. While he could not do much more than a combat medic, it gave everyone a warm fuzzy. We had either the BN Surgeon or PA out on every major combat patrol.

Ok, which branch was this? Army I presume.

 

[usnavdoc]

My BN Surgeon went on patrols all the time. My BN CDR wanted the best possible medical care forward in the event that an evac bird could not launch due to weather or was shot down. While he could not do much more than a combat medic, it gave everyone a warm fuzzy. We had either the BN Surgeon or PA out on every major combat patrol.

This happens more than PGG is admitting too despite his deployment history to Iraq and Afghanistan. Especially in Afghanistan where the nature of the beast is movement. You will be covering convoys and village cordon/searches all the time both of which are combat patrols. That is your job. And I am not at all the doctor that you describe PGG. Neither are the numerous others who have had to perform in that role.

Out of Camp Lejeune alone there has been one purple heart and 2 bronze stars(v) awarded to medical officers in the last year and a half. And none of these individuals were as PGG states. They were simply doing their job.

Now I am not at all for this idea of sending physicians forward(despite having done it). It serves no purpose. I just want to make sure the uninformed can make an intelligent decision regarding their military choice.

 

[DD214_DOC]

So do both branches do this?

 

[pgg]

This happens more than PGG is admitting too despite his deployment history to Iraq and Afghanistan. Especially in Afghanistan where the nature of the beast is movement. You will be covering convoys and village cordon/searches all the time both of which are combat patrols.

Well, if your experience was different I'll take your word for it. 🙂

While in Afghanistan, I rode on a number of convoys and went to villages to do assessments for the reconstruction teams. I went out with a convoy twice to an area about a mile outside a village while the Marines did cordon & search ops. I didn't ride on convoys just to provide medical coverage of a supply run. Every single time I left the wire, it was specifically to do something that only a doctor could do.

Maybe we're operating with different definitions of patrol. I don't consider going forward to man an aid station during an operation to be a patrol. It is certainly riskier than sitting in the rear, but it's part of the job and is not unreasonable. OTOH, walking/driving around a town as part of a security patrol with a platoon (or less) of Marines is something entirely different. I've got about 50 corpsmen who are E4 & below; it's their job to do patrols, I know it, they know it, and the Marines know it.

Out of Camp Lejeune alone there has been one purple heart and 2 bronze stars(v) awarded to medical officers in the last year and a half. And none of these individuals were as PGG states. They were simply doing their job.

I simply wonder how many of these guys just wanted to do patrols, given that filling roles like that was explicitly against the intent of the division surgeon who (again in my experience) was always willing to throw his weight around on behalf of his GMOs.

I'm not dismissing your experiences of course. Mine, in dealing with my own infantry battalion, four more during turnover at the start/end of deployments, two more that worked with us during large operations, plus two deployed regimental aid stations, plus various bits & pieces of non-infantry units like tanks, LAR, AAV, engineers ... naturally we talked about this very issue because the rumor mill made it seem common. And none of us were ever asked to do any of that "patrolling" garbage.

Most USMC LtCols are pretty smart people. While they all like having the best medical care the furthest forward, sometimes they need someone to explain to them that they're doing their Marines a disservice by wasting a physician in a role where he (a) can do nothing more than a corpsman and (b) is taken away from the BAS or echelon 2 facility in the rear, where he can do more.

And of course there's a fine line between coming across as a rational person advising the CO against a risky/pointless course of action, and being viewed as a wuss who just doesn't want to get his uniform dirty by spending some time in the field. It's not always easy to stand up to O5s who are used to getting their own way, but I have a hard time believing that the GMOs doing platoon sized foot patrols made much of an effort to change their COs minds ... especially given the kind of division surgeon we've had in Iraq for the last year.

But I guess as with all things in the military, experiences can vary tremendously from unit to unit. 🙂

 

[DD214_DOC]

A question about billets. If you end up doing GMO for awhile, does the Navy just stick you whereever they want, or do you at least have some say in the matter? Say I definitely wanted to be a shipboard GMO; will I definitely get something, or could I still be stuck with the Marines?

The Army supposedly lets you rank what you want and they assign you something from that list

 

[pgg]

A question about billets. If you end up doing GMO for awhile, does the Navy just stick you whereever they want, or do you at least have some say in the matter? Say I definitely wanted to be a shipboard GMO; will I definitely get something, or could I still be stuck with the Marines?

The Army supposedly lets you rank what you want and they assign you something from that list

The Navy will stick you where the Navy needs you. So will the Army. Anyone who says differently is selling something. 🙂

Be skeptical any time someone tells you that a detailer will give you some say in the matter. I had some friends who begged and pleaded and gave the detailer sob stories concerning why they just had to have one of those shipboard or nondeployable clinic billets ... and they all wound up working down the street from me at Camp Lejeune.

I got exactly what I wanted because I asked for a Marine billet. This may or may not be a sign of mental illness. The fact that my detailer went from surly and unavailable to take my calls to delighted to speak with me as soon as she found out I wanted to go to Division suggests I'm in a small minority, at least.

Most people don't want to go to the Marines, but there are a hell of a lot more Marine GMO billets than there are shipboard billets, and they all need to get filled. If you don't have prior service, a previous GMO tour, or some other compelling reason that you are special enough to be the lucky guy to get the shipboard billet ... you're probably not going to get it. They are few and coveted.

Of course you can (and should) call your Navy detailer and give him a preference list. Just be aware that you and 80% of the other soon-to-be GMOs will have identical preference lists consisting of "not the Marines."

One sure way to avoid a grunt unit is to get one of the many flight surgery (or dive) spots. These are doled out based partially on merit so if you're a strong applicant you can somewhat control your destiny. The Marines need flight docs too, but the Wing is a whole 'nother world compared to Division.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Do the dive guys get sub duty? That's actually something I'm somehwat interested in.

 

[usnavdoc]

Do the dive guys get sub duty? That's actually something I'm somehwat interested in.

LOL No they dont go out on subs, Thats an IDC's job(Independant duty corpsman) Sometimes they might have you go out on a training cruise for a week or so, but never on a deployment.

Your would basically work out of a shore support clinic if you were assigned to a sub squadron.

 

[cpc23]

Can you expand on how the Marine Division is a whole different world from the Wing? Also, what are the main differences between Navy FS and Marine FS (which is the better billet)?

 

[gravy4thebrain]

But I'll start the list here:
1) "Crew Rest"

 

[usnavdoc]

Can you expand on how the Marine Division is a whole different world from the Wing? Also, what are the main differences between Navy FS and Marine FS (which is the better billet)?

With the wing you have a much better lifestyle in garison and deployed. As well as alot more money for training and other incidentals. It all starts with the mentality of the Marines you work with. A pilot is very different from an infantry officer. The other big factor is that aircraft require a base.

Quick ex. I spent 8 weeks in southern Philippines with an infantry unit living in the jungle. I had 2 days of liberty at Angelas City economic center(old USAF base). The wing unit that supported us was based out of Angelas. They had libo on a daily basis.

I cant speak to the differences of Navy vs Marine aviation from the medical perspective. Other than to state the obvious. Depending on what aircraft you are on you will spend alot more time at sea doing workups with the Navy.


Another ex. In afghanistan I spent 92 days in the field with no showers etc...
The wing spent the deployment based out of Khandahar air base(gym, showers, laundry, hot food, internet, tv, movies)

Wing is a much better lifestyle than infantry.

 

[MC4]

That's BRILLIANT.

We don't have a bullet proof vest for you, so just wear your regular vest and pretend like it's a bullet proof vest.....

Everyone had vests and plates and every truck was uparmored or had kevlar blankets.

The Doc and PA pushed forward due to the potential long evac time in Afghanistan.

 

[militarymd]

Everyone had vests and plates and every truck was uparmored or had kevlar blankets.

The Doc and PA pushed forward due to the potential long evac time in Afghanistan.

It is an analogy....having doctors up front makes them feel better...when in reality it makes no difference...but they feel safer, so they may get into situations they otherwise would not....

lSame apply with bullet proof vests....if you think you have them, you may get into stuff that you otherwise would not.

 

[XXBlockheadXX]

Could anyone explain why most GMO's don't want to go with the Marines, as ppg has suggested?

 

[usnavdoc]

Could anyone explain why most GMO's don't want to go with the Marines, as ppg has suggested?

Well there are alot of reasons.

Marine mentality
Ground combat
living in the dirt
no showers
MREs
marine mentality
looked at as less than an officer of your rank until you prove yourself through PT
Marine mentality
Not given monitary support to do your job b/c the marines never want to fund you b/c your navy and navy views you as a marine aset
Higher Navy local command is notorious for not taking care of their medical officers
Marines think of medical as an afterthought until you are actually headed to combat.


I could go on and on but Ill give a few benefits as well

Corpsmen- Amazing performers in even the worst environments. It was a pleasure to teach them medicine and be a mentor as we headed into and returned from combat and deployments.

Chiefs- Some of the best military, leadership, and friendly guidance you will ever recieve.

I will also say this greenside corpsmen and chiefs are a different breed than blue side. Its just the way it is. By Far the best comraderie ive ever seen in the military. I will truly miss some of the individuals Ive had the pleasure of serving with.

Never ending sea stories of some of the worst and best times of my life

After proving yourself to the Marines in combat they would do just about anything for you. Hell Im sure some would do absolutely anything for you. And Im glad to have known them

Travel. Although these days this is just mideast oriented.

All in all I dont regret a thing. And Ive given up quite a bit in the last 4 years. Maybe im in a sentimental mood since I have 4 working days left in the Navy before I get out and become a resident again this july, but there are definitely things and people I will miss. But mostly it is the Chiefs and Corpsmen.

 

[Portier]

Chiefs- Some of the best military, leadership, and friendly guidance you will ever recieve.

Chiefs (like all personnel) are quite different to interact with when you're "above" them than when you're their "property."

I was a HM1...now an 3rd year med student. (It's funny how MS3 was Mess Specialist Third Class and now it had a different meaning for me.)