ARRO now has Fellowship panel

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RadOncDoc21 said:
Do they use quadratic or linear interpolation for their contours? I never learned which one to use in residency. That might be worth two years,
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This depends on the TPS. I think Eclipse uses a cubic function. It's buried deep in one of the software spec PDF's.
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Every year or so it seams there are some people that have to be in the bay area either because they have sick parents in the region, or their spouse has a high powered job in the tech industry, or maybe their spouse is finishing residency/ fellowship at one of the bay area hospitals. And obviously the job market in the bay area is very saturated so this puts these new grads in a tough spot and they may be backed into taking a fellowship or instructorship type position.

I imagine Stanford would say something like "Look we are just offering a position and we aren't forcing anyone to take it." Of course, they have every right to do this. So is it exploitative? It's hard to say really but the red flag is that the position they are advertising is to practice thoracic RT which is a core component of any ACGME accredited residency program. If they were offering a truly unique experience, then I think they would have a better argument for it not being predatory.
 
PointA said:
Every year or so it seams there are some people that have to be in the bay area either because they have sick parents in the region, or their spouse has a high powered job in the tech industry, or maybe their spouse is finishing residency/ fellowship at one of the bay area hospitals. And obviously the job market in the bay area is very saturated so this puts these new grads in a tough spot and they may be backed into taking a fellowship or instructorship type position.

I imagine Stanford would say something like "Look we are just offering a position and we aren't forcing anyone to take it." Of course, they have every right to do this. So is it exploitative? It's hard to say really but the red flag is that the position they are advertising is to practice thoracic RT which is a core component of any ACGME accredited residency program. If they were offering a truly unique experience, then I think they would have a better argument for it not being predatory.
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It is not the fellowship position per se, but the expanded residency slots that lead to it (and stanford has expanded the residency- thats where the "predatory element" comes in. Why are you expanding your residency if there are so few jobs in the bay area?)
 
RickyScott said:
It is not the fellowship position per se, but the expanded residency slots that lead to it (and stanford has expanded the residency- thats where the "predatory element" comes in. Why are you expanding your residency if there are so few jobs in the bay area?)
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It's because rhinelander WI and salina KS need docs. Makes perfect sense to me :rolleyes:
 
This would not be my first choice for proton fellowship. Doubt they'll have many US candidates.
 
evilbooyaa said:
As long as they pay over 200k I'm sure people will sign up for it. Of course I'm sure they're offering less than 100k salary to live in Palo Alto.
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Guess we must need more residency expansion to fill these underpaid Junior faculty/fellowship positions. No takers in 2 years.

'thacic OR radiation OR oncology OR instruct OR STATECODE:"CA"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

3,233 'thacic OR radiation OR oncology OR instruct OR STATECODE:
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'md OR erson OR advanced OR radiation OR oncology OR fellowship OR STATECODE:"TX"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

3,259 'md OR erson OR advanced OR radiation OR oncology OR fellowship OR STATECODE:
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'stanfd OR university OR clinical OR fellowship OR STATECODE:"CA"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

2,455 'stanfd OR university OR clinical OR fellowship OR STATECODE:
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The legacy of unnecessary residency expansion... More bogus non accredited "advanced radiation" fellowships...
 
nope. not at all. nothing to do with residency expansion. These places take international fellows. if anything, it's a good thing and keeps these places from expanding even more. A trainee that isn't going to join the job force. great thing.

At the 2012 Democratic National Convention, Bill Clinton gave a funny speech. He said something like 'The Republicans only know two words. Cut taxes. jobs down? cut taxes. jobs up? cut taxes. Got a cold? Cut taxes'. It was recieved with a lot of laughs. That reminds me of you and 'residency expansion'. Not everything has to do with residency expansion.
 
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xrthopeful said:
nope. not at all. nothing to do with residency expansion. These places take international fellows. if anything, it's a good thing and keeps these places from expanding even more. A trainee that isn't going to join the job force. great thing.
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Is it pretty easy for a doc from another country to come over and just slide right into a fellowship at MDACC and get a Texas state medical license and legally see and treat patients without taking Steps, etc.?
 
scarbrtj said:
Is it pretty easy for a doc from another country to come over and just slide right into a fellowship at MDACC and get a Texas state medical license and legally see and treat patients without taking Steps, etc.?
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They have to take Step 1,2,3 but then it's fairly easy process I assume. It happens every year at multple programs in multiple states. US grads aren't taking these fellowship spots that are open yearly. Then they go back home.
 
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xrthopeful said:
nope. not at all. nothing to do with residency expansion. These places take international fellows. if anything, it's a good thing and keeps these places from expanding even more. A trainee that isn't going to join the job force. great thing.

At the 2012 Democratic National Convention, Bill Clinton gave a funny speech. He said something like 'The Republicans only know two words. Cut taxes. jobs down? cut taxes. jobs up? cut taxes. Got a cold? Cut taxes'. It was recieved with a lot of laughs. That reminds me of you and 'residency expansion'. Not everything has to do with residency expansion.
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Were you around ten years ago? I was. These advanced radiation fellowships didn't exist to the same degree, and certainly never made it to ASTROs site like they do know.

Denial.... It ain't just a river in Egypt.

PS. Take a look at the description of who is being targeted next time, before posting
 
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I see no problem with these fellowships. I'm sorry that you do. People from abroad get to come for 1 or 2 years and then go home with more experience, and it helps them get a better job back home and to take better care of their patients, help introduction SBRT programs in their country etc.

Residency expansion is a problem, but it has nothing to do with these fellowships. I don't think you understand these fellowships and who is taking them. I'm in the cut, you're out of the game. Don't muddy the expansion problem with unrelated info.

The Stanford one didn't have any luck last year when they sold it as a 'Instructor' position. No one took it. Doubt anyone takes it this year too.

Maybe in a few years, but the market in 2019 was good.

You failed to mention the 6 jobs that were posted in the same two days those two fellowships were posted...
 
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xrthopeful said:
I see no problem with these fellowships. I'm sorry that you do. People from abroad get to come for 1 or 2 years and then go home with more experience, and it helps them get a better job back home and to take better care of their patients, help introduction SBRT programs in their country etc.

Residency expansion is a problem, but it has nothing to do with these fellowships. I don't think you understand these fellowships and who is taking them. I'm in the cut, you're out of the game.
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Yet you can't even read the job description or who is being targeted by the fellowship....
 
MD Anderson had 3 clinical fellows in the 2018-2019 year.

All three were from abroad (not Canada either).
 
xrthopeful said:
They have to take Step 1,2,3 but then it's fairly easy process I assume. It happens every year at multple programs in multiple states. US grads aren't taking these fellowship spots that are open yearly. Then they go back home.
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That's kinda strange they'd do all that work to enter the American medical system... and then abandon it, and this country, after several years. Oh well. If you say this is what happens, it's what happens. They probably get a letter from the President*, "Go back to your home country!"

*of the University ;)
 
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medgator said:
Yet you can't even read the job description or who is being targeted by the fellowship....
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Esta appearos los applicantos hasta be los graduationes a Americano residencias
 
xrthopeful said:
I see no problem with these fellowships. I'm sorry that you do. People from abroad get to come for 1 or 2 years and then go home with more experience, and it helps them get a better job back home and to take better care of their patients, help introduction SBRT programs in their country etc.

Residency expansion is a problem, but it has nothing to do with these fellowships. I don't think you understand these fellowships and who is taking them. I'm in the cut, you're out of the game. Don't muddy the expansion problem with unrelated info.

The Stanford one didn't have any luck last year when they sold it as a 'Instructor' position. No one took it. Doubt anyone takes it this year too.

Maybe in a few years, but the market in 2019 was good.

You failed to mention the 6 jobs that were posted in the same two days those two fellowships were posted...
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+1. The only AMGs I’ve seen take a fellowship is if they have a super specific geographic preference in a desirable city and need to be there that very year. As I’ve said before, the day that any rad onc resident can just choose they want to live in nyc and get a job any given year is the day we have a rad onc shortage of epic proportions. It’s too small a field to ever get that level of geographic flexibility. Hence a small # of AMGs take fellowships. The other circumstance I’ve seen is a new grad gets paid junior attg money from a new proton center to be a proton fellow for free at another institution with more proton experience.
 
Krukenberg said:
+1. The only AMGs I’ve seen take a fellowship is if they have a super specific geographic preference in a desirable city and need to be there that very year.
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I've seen that exact thing happen when a grad needs to be a in a decently desirable mid tier city too. A few times the last decade actually.

Most of them took legit fellowships though like brachy, not fellowships in igrt lol
 
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For what it's worth, I am an AMG and I did a fellowship in particle therapy at a long-established program and it opened quite a few doors for me -including getting me an amazing academic position that allows me to continue my research. I decided to a fellowship because I had very specific research interests and didn't want to settle for a job where I didn't have the time or resources to pursue them... like the sort of jobs I interviewed for in residency. I was also extremely fortunate in that my family was able to relocate with me for a year. My experience was very positive in terms of my training (encountering a second institutional philosophy as a trainee was very helpful), the physicians I got to work with, the research I was able to do, and the opportunities that materialized. It seems like there are predatory fellowships out there... but there are also a few with a great track record of placing trainees where they want to be. It's easy enough to ask fellowships where their previous fellows ended up.
 
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Want more anecdotes? I personally know:

1. Several AMGs who did fellowship because they couldn't get any academic job anywhere.

2. Several fellows who now practice without using their fellowship training since they were unable to find jobs in their fellowship area. Two of them are currently not working in rad onc at all to my knowledge.

3. Several foreign fellows who did all their prior training internationally and now practice in the USA. I also know several currently in fellowship who do not plan to return home.
 
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[/QUOTE]
3. Several foreign fellows who did all their prior training internationally and now practice in the USA. I also know several currently in fellowship who do not plan to return home.
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I know several as well. Mostly from Maryland, Florida, Philadelphia, Ohio regions. Fellowship has become a great way for academia to hire cheap labor.
 
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I know there are some fellows that have stayed too. In case anyone is wondering how it works, the ABR has a path for Rad Oncs and Radiologists to become board-certified in the US. At least for Rad Onc the steps are as follows:

After being a fellow for two years, the institution has to be willing to keep you on as an attending and has to hire you - then once you have been working for 5 years in total (at the same institution), you can sit for Physics/Rad Bio one year, Clinical Boards the next year and then finally Oral Boards in the last year. Then you are a board-certified Rad Onc in the US. Some well-known US Rad Oncs are not from the US originally in terms of training.


I know this exists for some other fields too but idk the steps. I know a few neurosurgeons who trained outside of the US and then did fellowships in the US. Same for some of the IM subspecalities - I know a GI doc that did multiple advanced GI fellowships in the US (after being a GI abroad) and then was able to get certified here without having to do 3 years of IM. He did have to do GI fellowship and then an advanced GI endoscopy fellowship tho.
 
I know there are some fellows that have stayed too. In case anyone is wondering how it works, the ABR has a path for Rad Oncs and Radiologists to become board-certified in the US. At least for Rad Onc the steps are as follows:

After being a fellow for two years, the institution has to be willing to keep you on as an attending and has to hire you - then once you have been working for 5 years in total (at the same institution), you can sit for Physics/Rad Bio one year, Clinical Boards the next year and then finally Oral Boards in the last year. Then you are a board-certified Rad Onc in the US. Some well-known US Rad Oncs are not from the US originally in terms of training.


I know this exists for some other fields too but idk the steps. I know a few neurosurgeons who trained outside of the US and then did fellowships in the US. Same for some of the IM subspecalities - I know a GI doc that did multiple advanced GI fellowships in the US (after being a GI abroad) and then was able to get certified here without having to do 3 years of IM. He did have to do GI fellowship and then an advanced GI endoscopy fellowship tho.
 
medgator said:
I thought that loophole had been closed, guess not.
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No. For details see:

ABR

Alternate Pathway (International Medical Graduates) Last verified on January 24, 2024 On this page Prerequisites and Requirements Application Exams More Information Prerequisites and Requirements An international medical graduate who is not planning to enter the standard residency pathway can...
www.theabr.org www.theabr.org
 
xrthopeful said:
I know there are some fellows that have stayed too. In case anyone is wondering how it works, the ABR has a path for Rad Oncs and Radiologists to become board-certified in the US. At least for Rad Onc the steps are as follows:

After being a fellow for two years, the institution has to be willing to keep you on as an attending and has to hire you - then once you have been working for 5 years in total (at the same institution), you can sit for Physics/Rad Bio one year, Clinical Boards the next year and then finally Oral Boards in the last year. Then you are a board-certified Rad Onc in the US. Some well-known US Rad Oncs are not from the US originally in terms of training.


I know this exists for some other fields too but idk the steps. I know a few neurosurgeons who trained outside of the US and then did fellowships in the US. Same for some of the IM subspecalities - I know a GI doc that did multiple advanced GI fellowships in the US (after being a GI abroad) and then was able to get certified here without having to do 3 years of IM. He did have to do GI fellowship and then an advanced GI endoscopy fellowship tho.
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Most specialties I'm aware of give you zero credit for residency done outside this country and make you repeat the whole thing. Outside of RO I guess
 
Yeah I just know that neurosurgery and some of the IM subspecialties don't make you do residency again in the US.

Most other specialties do, though, like you said.
 
xrthopeful said:
I know there are some fellows that have stayed too. In case anyone is wondering how it works, the ABR has a path for Rad Oncs and Radiologists to become board-certified in the US. At least for Rad Onc the steps are as follows:

After being a fellow for two years, the institution has to be willing to keep you on as an attending and has to hire you - then once you have been working for 5 years in total (at the same institution), you can sit for Physics/Rad Bio one year, Clinical Boards the next year and then finally Oral Boards in the last year. Then you are a board-certified Rad Onc in the US. Some well-known US Rad Oncs are not from the US originally in terms of training.


I know this exists for some other fields too but idk the steps. I know a few neurosurgeons who trained outside of the US and then did fellowships in the US. Same for some of the IM subspecalities - I know a GI doc that did multiple advanced GI fellowships in the US (after being a GI abroad) and then was able to get certified here without having to do 3 years of IM. He did have to do GI fellowship and then an advanced GI endoscopy fellowship tho.
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This is pedantic, but the way this path was described to me was slightly different. You're still considered a "fellow" by the institution, and you have to "declare" somehow to the ABR your intent to pursue this experience-based certification. I know of an FMG who had been doing fellowships for ~4 years but was (evidently) not eligible for this pathway because they had not "declared" their intent.

Does anyone have official documentation for this? I'm curious what the actual steps are,
 
I agree - you have to officially declare for this path.
 
medgator said:
Most specialties I'm aware of give you zero credit for residency done outside this country and make you repeat the whole thing. Outside of RO I guess
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Most specialties have an "alternate pathway" outside the match where FMGs function as residents fellows or attendings for a set number of years and then take the boards. How widely utilized it is in each specialty is a different matter. For rad onc the length is 4 years so you save a year over going through a match.
 
Fellowships look to be popular according to this study from Australia published in 2015:

Some excerpts...

"Nearly half of trainee respondents would have reconsidered their choice of specialty had they known about the possible oversupply in the workforce with 12.4% undecided about continuing their career in radiation oncology."

"Three-quarters of respondents indicated that they planned on undertaking a fellowship year after training (72.3%, n = 73) and 24 (23.8%) were undecided. Those aged less than 30 years were more likely than their older colleagues to be planning a fellowship year (P = 0.045). The majority of respondents who reported that they were planning a fellowship year were doing so to either be more competitive in the job market (94.5%, n = 69) or to gain specific skills and expertise (94.5%, n = 69)."

273040
 
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SneakyBooger said:
Fellowships look to be popular according to this study from Australia published in 2015:

Some excerpts...

"Nearly half of trainee respondents would have reconsidered their choice of specialty had they known about the possible oversupply in the workforce with 12.4% undecided about continuing their career in radiation oncology."

"Three-quarters of respondents indicated that they planned on undertaking a fellowship year after training (72.3%, n = 73) and 24 (23.8%) were undecided. Those aged less than 30 years were more likely than their older colleagues to be planning a fellowship year (P = 0.045). The majority of respondents who reported that they were planning a fellowship year were doing so to either be more competitive in the job market (94.5%, n = 69) or to gain specific skills and expertise (94.5%, n = 69)."

View attachment 273040
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These countries have been doing considerable hypofrac for a while now too. This is our future.
 
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I'm starting an arthritis clinic with the big ortho group in town - "Ortho Rads".
 
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xrthopeful said:
I see no problem with these fellowships. I'm sorry that you do. People from abroad get to come for 1 or 2 years and then go home with more experience, and it helps them get a better job back home and to take better care of their patients, help introduction SBRT programs in their country etc.

Residency expansion is a problem, but it has nothing to do with these fellowships. I don't think you understand these fellowships and who is taking them. I'm in the cut, you're out of the game. Don't muddy the expansion problem with unrelated info.
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You weren't in the game a decade ago.

Afaik, "Supportive and Palliative Radiation Oncology" fellowships didn't exist back then at Harvard. Of course residency that was at a time of more supply/demand balance in residency slots.

Do foreign ROs need extra experience/training to treat mets? I guess the "Harvard way" of 30/10 and 8/1 is special?

'brigham OR women's OR hospital OR fellowships OR in OR brachytherapy OR cns OR palliative OR care OR STATECODE:"MA"' Jobs | ASTRO Radiation Oncology Career Center

3,318 'brigham OR women's OR hospital OR fellowships OR in OR brachytherapy OR cns OR palliative OR care OR STATECODE:
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What don't you get? They go back home with 'MD Anderson' or 'Harvard' attached to their name and it helps them get a job or a better job. For these people, they find it worth it.

What exactly is your argument? Take it up with the FMGs.
 
xrthopeful said:
What don't you get? They go back home with 'MD Anderson' or 'Harvard' attached to their name and it helps them get a job or a better job. For these people, they find it worth it.

What exactly is your argument? Take it up with the FMGs.
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So learning to treat mets at Harvard improves one's job prospects in other countries.

Got it
 
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Because foreign grads by definition are not board eligible? Not until they enter the pathway?
 
medgator said:
Do you think learning how to do sbrt or place fiducials /spaceOAR in prostate CA is outside the purvey of a standard acgme accredited radiation oncology residency?
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What does that have to do with what I posted?
 
NAMthrow said:
Why not make them go through the pathway? What does that have to do with anything?
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The pathway is for people who want to do the 5 year board certification pathway for people who want to stay and practice in the US. This requires someone to sponsor you and hire you in as a full time staff. Doesn’t happen a lot.

Some FMGs just want to come and get some ‘American training’ on their CV which helps them get a job or a better job back home. May seem silly or a waste of time to you but lots and lots of people do it every year.
 
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