[Article] “AMA officially recognizes COMLEX equality with USMLE”.

[Dr.Bruh]

American Medical Association Officially Recognizes COMLEX-USA’s Equality with USMLE — NBOME

Figured this would be an interesting place to post this for discussion.
Some noteble quotes from the article.

“The resolution provides that the AMA “promote equal acceptance of the USMLE and COMLEX at all United States residency programs.”

- so this sounds like the AMA is just promoting COMLEX acceptance but there isn’t anything actually enforcing program to actually accept it (I may be wrong but that’s just how I interpreted that statement).


“Further, that the AMA will “work with appropriate stakeholders, including, but not limited to the NBME, AAMC, NBOME, ACGME, and AOA to educate Residency Program Directors on how to interpret and use COMLEX scores.”

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[AnatomyGrey12]

Lol the AMA has literally no control over this.

 

[kazill]

I won't believe this has done anything until I have video evidence of every program director in the country saying "I place equal value on USMLE and COMLEX."

Even then I'd be skeptical.

 

[Cryc_to_the_point]

I'm expecting some hate for my skepticism of this over on my school's page...

 

[statistician]

Not buying it

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

The AMA is a "good old boys" help doctors maintain power club... they're not regulators... they're a political lobbyist group. Just working an angle.

 

[alprazoslam]

AMA also wants usmle to be pass fail while somehow still maintaining ability of PDs to differentiate applicants. Hate to say it but just passing the exam doesn’t mean anything. Big diff between somebody’s knowledge who makes a 260 vs 200. I bet they (AMA) wouldn’t want the precious mcat to be pass fail since people take it over and over and make them all bucks and don’t forget the AMA has butthugs with AAMC

Turds.


Back to topic if they want comlex to be equal get rid of the grammar errors and BS questions then we can talk.

 

[Goro]

I won't believe this has done anything until I have video evidence of every program director in the country saying "I place equal value on USMLE and COMLEX."

Even then I'd be skeptical.

Yup.
/thread.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

if this is true, what does that mean for us that hasn't taken boards yet especially with the merger around the corner?

AMA officially recognizes COMLEX-USA as equivalent to USMLE

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[alprazoslam]

It means take USMLE and stop reading nbome junk

Comlex should not exsist and everybody nbome included knows it

 

[DNC127]

Don't buy it.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

They should have a resolution to make the COMLEX an actual standardized exam that doesn't change its scoring every single year and is actually consistent year to year. A 400 this year should be the same 400 last year etc. If you want to raise the passing score make it higher. Stop this nonsense redistribution of the mean.

 

[You shall know the Truth]

I personally think it means nothing, just because you “educate” PDs does not confer acceptance. This is especially true for surgical/competitive specialties.

 

[MADD!!!]

I actually wish more ppl openly said they don’t take comlex... then we could work towards DO students just taking the same damn board licensure exams. No board exam for a physician should be testing our knowledge of treating a patient by having us recall which Chapman point is associated with a heart issue. It’s embarrassing to our profession that these questions dictate your knowledge of medicine in 2018.

 

[atomheart]

The policy supported by the AMA is a modification of the existing "Grading Policy for Medical Licensure Examinations H-275.953" which states that resident screening and selection should not be based on test scores, and that they want to work with NBME/NBOME to transition both tests to P/F to prevent the misuse of scores. This new policy is an addendum to the aforementioned policy, essentially stating "you cannot discriminate your resident applicant pool only on the basis of which test was taken; if both tests are P/F, a pass holds equal weight regardless of the test." However, it doesn't prohibit traditional forms of discrimination (this applicant is from a DO/International school), and it weakens the USMLE (theoretically) as a 'great equalizer' among applicants. Weirdly, even with the P/F policy the school still receives the distribution of scores which could then be used to give the Dean's letter more weight.

 

[235009]

Only thing the AMA is good at is sending me unmarked envelopes asking for money almost a decade after I naively gave them $85 my first week of med school so I can get a box of flashcards I never used.

Why aren't they instead advocating for a single uniform licensing exam?!

 

[235009]

The AMA has no power or influence.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Only thing the AMA is good at is sending me unmarked envelopes asking for money almost a decade after I naively gave them $85 my first week of med school so I can get a box of flashcards I never used.

Why aren't they instead advocating for a single uniform licensing exam?!

I heard once that the problem has to do with licensing boards and how they are setup in each state. It's written into law that you need to take COMLEX as a DO. It might all be just an excuse because having COMLEX means making money

 

[libertyyne]

No one gives Two ****s about what the ama says.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Equal acceptance will not mean equal considerations.

Sadly, you'll have administrators at many DO schools parading this article around as a tool to pressure their students into only taking the COMLEX over the USMLE....

 

[Winged Scapula]

Lol the AMA has literally no control over this.

Exactly. The AMA has no influence over residency program training or faculty. This is an opinion piece as far as I’m concerned.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I heard once that the problem has to do with licensing boards and how they are setup in each state. It's written into law that you need to take COMLEX as a DO. It might all be just an excuse because having COMLEX means making money

Yeah this. As much as it sucks, I don't see the COMLEX going away anytime soon. It goes far beyond residency selection, you would have to change the licensing laws in every state to get rid of COMLEX and the only way I see that happening is a complete integration of the degree pathways.

Sadly, you'll have administrators at many DO schools parading this article around as a tool to pressure their students into only taking the COMLEX over the USMLE

Oh yeah, victory laps are most assuredly coming. It will likely prevent my school from every giving us reimbursement for signing up for USMLE

 

[DO2015CA]

Equal acceptance will not mean equal considerations.

Sadly, you'll have administrators at many DO schools parading this article around as a tool to pressure their students into only taking the COMLEX over the USMLE....

My school did this to classes of 2017, 2018, us, and initially 2020 but a 2020er has told me that they got an email (during 3rd year had started) saying that it might be a good idea to sign up for the USMLE. Sucks for the people that drank the koolaid, but at least they finally rectified their stance.

 

[EmilKraepelin55]

To me, it seems that if the COMLEX were to be abolished then the teaching of OMM at the graduate level would be superfluous. It gives the techniques less weight, and would probably lead to an even greater dissatisfaction in learning it than there already is amongst the majority of DO students. Perhaps it could just be a separate certification in fellowship or residency, but we students would have even less reason to give it much thought in med school. The COMLEX is what truly keeps the DO degree “distinct” for its incentive in learning OMM, thus being driven more or less by ideological bickering.

 

[MakeLifeHappen13]

To me, it seems that if the COMLEX were to be abolished then the teaching of OMM at the graduate level would be superfluous. It gives the techniques less weight, and would probably lead to an even greater dissatisfaction in learning it than there already is amongst the majority of DO students. Perhaps it could just be a separate certification in fellowship or residency, but we students would have even less reason to give it much thought in med school. The COMLEX is what truly keeps the DO degree “distinct” for its incentive in learning OMM, thus being driven more or less by ideological bickering.

If the COMLEX were abolished, schools would still find a way to jam OMM down our throats somehow. Probably in the form of an 'OMM Boards' that all students must pass before being allowed to graduate.

 

[deleted950463]

Ole separate but equal deal

 

[Goro]

if this is true, what does that mean for us that hasn't taken boards yet especially with the merger around the corner?

AMA officially recognizes COMLEX-USA as equivalent to USMLE

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

Nothing. When the AMA can influence PDs on this matter, then the article will actually have more weight than a molecule of oxygen.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yeah this. As much as it sucks, I don't see the COMLEX going away anytime soon. It goes far beyond residency selection, you would have to change the licensing laws in every state to get rid of COMLEX and the only way I see that happening is a complete integration of the degree pathways.



Oh yeah, victory laps are most assuredly coming. It will likely prevent my school from every giving us reimbursement for signing up for USMLE

My state doesn't care. MDs and DOs are governed by a single medical board and as long as you pass all three either USMLE or COMLEX steps, they don't care.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

I don't understand why people think residency program directors being taught to read a bell curve is comforting.They graduated medical school, they know how to put your score on a damn bell curve.

That being said, for students only taking COMLEX, the more people getting behind COMLEX the better right? It won't dramatically change anything but hey, it's better than nothing.. I guess.

 

[shadowlightfox]

It won't dramatically change anything but hey, it's better than nothing.. I guess.

Something is not always better than nothing.

I would have preferred DO schools to have nothing to work with over something in justifying their subpar curriculum compared to MD counterparts.

I figured as long as COMLEX was continuously being degraded and devalued over the years, this would by some miracle forcefully and without remorse dwindle and dissipate the COMLEX like Dracula under a beaming sunlight and prompt more osteopathic schools to actually buckle up and improve their curriculum. Instead, the presence of this article would only drape a curtain over that sunlight and vie more osteopathic schools to continue shunning the USMLE as a sacrilege instead of contending to it.

 

[NecrotizingFasciitis]

Something is not always better than nothing.

I would have preferred DO schools to have nothing to work with over something in justifying their subpar curriculum compared to MD counterparts.

I figured as long as COMLEX was continuously being degraded and devalued over the years, this would by some miracle forcefully and without remorse dwindle and dissipate the COMLEX like Dracula under a beaming sunlight and prompt more osteopathic schools to actually buckle up and improve their curriculum. Instead, the presence of this article would only drape a curtain over that sunlight and vie more osteopathic schools to continue shunning the USMLE as a sacrilege instead of contending to it.

Love the description haha.

Like others have said though I don't know what they would do with OMM. They're not going to take it out, despite how nice that would be. Maybe USMLE w/ an additional OMM portion at the end strictly for DO students? Kind of like how the MCAT used to have a writing portion for everyone, and nobody knew what the heck any of the grading meant, but as long as you didn't bomb it you were fine & life went on.

 

[235009]

Like others have said though I don't know what they would do with OMM. They're not going to take it out, despite how nice that would be. Maybe USMLE w/ an additional OMM portion at the end strictly for DO students? Kind of like how the MCAT used to have a writing portion for everyone, and nobody knew what the heck any of the grading meant, but as long as you didn't bomb it you were fine & life went on.

Just have each school administer an OMM shelf exam. This isn't a problem at all.
There is absolutely no incentive for the NBME to allow the addition of pseudoscience to their tests.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Just have each school administer an OMM shelf exam. This isn't a problem at all.
There is absolutely no incentive for the NBME to allow the addition of pseudoscience to their tests.

Somehow ACGME has given it validation by creating their NMM committee. It really amazes me how OMM continues to exist the way it does, with minuscule amounts of research.

 

[ortnakas]

On the one hand, it's nice the AMA is officially recognizing us as appropriately-trained physicians. I'm a proponent of taking gifts when they're offered to you no matter how small.

On the other hand, this has zero enforceability, the AMA doesn't have anything to do with resident selection, and this magically doesn't make the test the same in the eyes of PDs. Plus let's face it, the test ISN'T equal; even if you ignore the OMM portion, which is a lot to ignore, it's crappily written.

 

[TheRealCookieMonster]

I'm a proponent of taking gifts when they're offered to you no matter how small.

The AMA doesn't really give gifts... It makes business/political moves.

 

[shadowlightfox]

I'm a proponent of taking gifts when they're offered to you no matter how small.

That's the thing, what does AMA gain by mentioning this?

 

[atomheart]

if this is true, what does that mean for us that hasn't taken boards yet especially with the merger around the corner?

The effect which will happen regardless of whether boards become P/F and "equal" in the future is that students will have to work harder every year to get into residencies by jumping through arbitrary hoops. The neutering of screening instruments already available doesn't affect the cause for their demand. Programs need something to make their interview selections and rankings, and they're starting to resort to more and more arbitrary means. It has less to do with the quality of screening instruments, and more to do with the size of the applicant pool which increases every year. Look at the state of EM this application cycle and imagine that happening to every specialty in the future.

Instead of changing the screening instruments, the other consideration is restricting the number of applications that each person may send out through ERAS during each application season. It limits application spamming much more effectively than the NRMP exploiting the spammers to make gobs of money on dead applications. Yes, it will restrict the overall pool, and for some programs the quality of applicants, but it also reduces the demand for screening tools: it makes it easier for programs in certain specialties to choose who to interview because applicants need to more carefully decide where they apply.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

The effect which will happen regardless of whether boards become P/F and "equal" in the future is that students will have to work harder every year to get into residencies by jumping through arbitrary hoops. The neutering of screening instruments already available doesn't affect the cause for their demand. Programs need something to make their interview selections and rankings, and they're starting to resort to more and more arbitrary means. It has less to do with the quality of screening instruments, and more to do with the size of the applicant pool which increases every year. Look at the state of EM this application cycle and imagine that happening to every specialty in the future.

Instead of changing the screening instruments, the other consideration is restricting the number of applications that each person may send out through ERAS during each application season. It limits application spamming much more effectively than the NRMP exploiting the spammers to make gobs of money on dead applications. Yes, it will restrict the overall pool, and for some programs the quality of applicants, but it also reduces the demand for screening tools: it makes it easier for programs in certain specialties to choose who to interview because applicants need to more carefully decide where they apply.

This is a nice thought, but terrible idea. The only people who need way more apps are students like us (DO's). Restricting apps to 30 wouldn't hurt MD's that much, but it would kill a lot of DO's in anything but primary care.

 

[atomheart]

This is a nice thought, but terrible idea. The only people who need way more apps are students like us (DO's). Restricting apps to 30 wouldn't hurt MD's that much, but it would kill a lot of DO's in anything but primary care.

Maybe. Plenty of MD applicants spam programs in anesthesiology which is supposedly an "easy" match. On my interview trail, typically they're couples matching. It might make DO applicants less competitive for the programs that were already difficult to get into, but make them much more competitive for programs further down in the rankings because fewer people will be deciding to apply there. It will make applications much more strategic for DOs, but fair to the programs that desperately need a way to sift through 5000 applications in a short period.

 

[libertyyne]

Maybe. Plenty of MD applicants spam programs in anesthesiology which is supposedly an "easy" match. On my interview trail, typically they're couples matching. It might make DO applicants less competitive for the programs that were already difficult to get into, but make them much more competitive for programs further down in the rankings because fewer people will be deciding to apply there. It will make applications much more strategic for DOs, but fair to the programs that desperately need a way to sift through 5000 applications in a short period.

maybe for a cycle until the bottom end of the MD anesthesia pool figures out that these programs might make great targets.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Gotta say that my school is in the minority I guess bc they’ve straight up told us to take step 1 if we think we can pass it. They’ve even expanded our dedicated time to study for it. We have zero faculty that I’m aware that push comlex only. If you’re in the bottom half of the class you have to have a meeting with some advisor or something to get permission to take it. I do, however, wish that the expectation was more like “Pass it” than “Do your best to pass it”.

Sure would be nice if they bought u world for us though...

 

[atomheart]

maybe for a cycle until the bottom end of the MD anesthesia pool figures out that these programs might make great targets.

Right now the bottom end of the MD anesthesia pool are applicants who actually want to be anesthesiologists in the future, as opposed to the applicants who are just applying because they need a backup for their surgery subspecialty.

 

[NotYou20]

It's a poorly written test that is taken by a population of significantly worse test takers than usmle. The minimum passing score is seriously too easy to achieve. Should be working towards ending it by residencies not considering it rather than accepting it.

 

[shadowlightfox]

Gotta say that my school is in the minority I guess bc they’ve straight up told us to take step 1 if we think we can pass it. They’ve even expanded our dedicated time to study for it. We have zero faculty that I’m aware that push comlex only. If you’re in the bottom half of the class you have to have a meeting with some advisor or something to get permission to take it. I do, however, wish that the expectation was more like “Pass it” than “Do your best to pass it”.

Sure would be nice if they bought u world for us though...

Your school sounds like it's being run by relatively smart people.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Your school sounds like it's being run by relatively smart people.

Well, we do have a mandatory 2.5 hour lecture on the importance of self care and promoting mental health awareness next week.

Professional dress required.

The day before a final.

So I can understand if you’re jealous.

 

[MADD!!!]

If the COMLEX were abolished, schools would still find a way to jam OMM down our throats somehow. Probably in the form of an 'OMM Boards' that all students must pass before being allowed to graduate.

We already have that at PCOM. Our second year final OMM exam is cumulative for all of 2 years.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Gotta say that my school is in the minority I guess bc they’ve straight up told us to take step 1 if we think we can pass it. They’ve even expanded our dedicated time to study for it. We have zero faculty that I’m aware that push comlex only. If you’re in the bottom half of the class you have to have a meeting with some advisor or something to get permission to take it. I do, however, wish that the expectation was more like “Pass it” than “Do your best to pass it”.

Sure would be nice if they bought u world for us though...

Same here at my school.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[shadowlightfox]

Well, we do have a mandatory 2.5 hour lecture on the importance of self care and promoting mental health awareness next week.

Professional dress required.

The day before a final.

So I can understand if you’re jealous.

Hence, emphasis on the RELATIVELY.

 

[shadowlightfox]

We already have that at PCOM. Our second year final OMM exam is cumulative for all of 2 years.

We have that at my school as well. In fact, our final exam is the actual COMAT at the end of second year for OMM. Fact is, even if COMLEX was abolished, it's not like the school won't know how to force OMM anyway.

 

[Neopolymath]

The worst thing that could happen for DO students is for Step 1 to become P/F. It's literally our only chance to match competitively without padding your resume with complete BS. I am all for anything that is a standardized test especially if it means that I don't have to volunteer/shadow/research (depending on the field)/pre-med style crap.

The single best thing about med school is that I just do well academically, be congenial, and have good hobbies outside of studying. That's all it's gonna take for most situations. You stop stratifying students via the MCAT and Step 1 and suddenly school reputation matters even more than it already does (Ivy students getting 225 and making plastics etc). This would be very bad.