Ask a Graduating 4th Year Med Student Anything

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sinombre

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Now that I'm done with all of my ms4 requirements and have already matched, I'm pretty much just sailing until graduation. I found these AMA threads really helpful as a premed so I figured I'd make a new thread and see if I can answer any questions.

Super brief background: I was an average med student and matched into my top choice in general surgery

Maybe @Doctor Strange and/or any other ms4s who post here can chime in as well.

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Now that I'm done with all of my ms4 requirements and have already matched, I'm pretty much just sailing until graduation. I found these AMA threads really helpful as a premed so I figured I'd make a new thread and see if I can answer any questions.

Super brief background: I was an average med student and matched into my top choice in general surgery

Maybe @Doctor Strange and/or any other ms4s who post here can chime in as well.

What made you choose general surgery?
 
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Congrats. OB/GYN vs Surgery - which had crankier residents?

I know you may be biased lol
 
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Now that I'm done with all of my ms4 requirements and have already matched, I'm pretty much just sailing until graduation. I found these AMA threads really helpful as a premed so I figured I'd make a new thread and see if I can answer any questions.

Super brief background: I was an average med student and matched into my top choice in general surgery

Maybe @Doctor Strange and/or any other ms4s who post here can chime in as well.
What made you top choice your top choice? Location? Higher ranking? Quality of program?
 
What made you choose general surgery?

A combination of a lot of things. I like working with my hands, love the OR, love the idea of being able to have tangible results, love the breadth of the field and the fact that there are about a million subspecialty options. I also got along really well with just about every resident and that definitely factored in as well.
 
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Congrats. OB/GYN vs Surgery - which had crankier residents?

I know you may be biased lol

I was lucky and worked with the most laid back obgyn residents in the history of the world. Some of the faculty were definitely super cranky though. I did actually enjoy my obgyn rotation (which surprised me). It's a pretty unique privilege to be able to deliver a baby as a student.
 
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What made you top choice your top choice? Location? Higher ranking? Quality of program?

Location, job opportunity for my wife, quality of the program, and I spent a month there doing an away rotation at the beginning of 4th year and really liked all of the residents and faculty.
 
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Now that I'm done with all of my ms4 requirements and have already matched, I'm pretty much just sailing until graduation. I found these AMA threads really helpful as a premed so I figured I'd make a new thread and see if I can answer any questions.

Super brief background: I was an average med student and matched into my top choice in general surgery

Maybe @Doctor Strange and/or any other ms4s who post here can chime in as well.

What was your general approach to studying for classes? What outside materials did you use for your classes?
 
What was your general approach to studying for classes? What outside materials did you use for your classes?

I didn't go to lecture and listened to everything on podcast sped up 1.5-2x. That way I was able to pause, write something down/look something up, and then speed through the less important parts. I felt it was a more productive way for me to study than going to lecture.

I primarily used flashcards for brute memorization (I used Anki).

I didn't use many outside resources first year. I used Pathoma and sketchy micro (I think it has a different name now) for biochem during second year. I used FA too, but it's more of a review book than a book to learn from. For step 1 I used uworld, first aid, and pathoma like 99% of all med students.
 
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Were you married before medical school or during? What has maintaining that relationship been like?

I got engaged right before med school started and married at the end of 3rd year. Maintaining the relationship was difficult because we were long distance for the first three years. It was easier for the first two years because there was more free time, and more difficult 3rd year because of the lack of weekends. It was either a one hour flight or a seven hour drive to where my wife was, and I would make the trip on average once a month (sometimes more often).

I viewed the distance as a way to prove that the marriage would work and could survive residency. Doing a long distance relationship was probably the 'hardest' part of medical school for me, but I'm glad I went through it and I think my relationship is stronger because of it.
 
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How much debt will you be graduating with? How do you plan to tackle it? Are you going to subspecialize?
 
How much debt will you be graduating with? How do you plan to tackle it? Are you going to subspecialize?

I'll have close to 300k (including undergrad debt and credit cards). I'm lucky in that my wife will more than double my residency salary, so we will have a decent income to work with. I'm basically going to aggressively pay off my credit cards (most of the debt came from applying to residency) as quickly as I can, and then consider if it makes more sense to pay off the student loan debt aggressively since I'll have a decent income, or if it makes more sense to rely on loan forgiveness.

It would be terrible to make minimum payments for years and then have the program pulled out from under you last-minute, when you could have made larger payments. I think I'm just reluctant to bank on something like loan forgiveness without a legal guarantee that it will still exist 10 years from now. And unfortunately doctors have targets on their backs... it's not difficult to imagine a scenario where the program gets cut for political reasons.

I'm not sure if I will subspecialize or not. Roughly 80% of people who do a general surgery residency subspecialize. I think I probably will, but would be happy being a general surgeon as well. One of the benefits of doing a general surgery residency is that I have years to figure it out.
 
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Can you talk about what you think made you an average medical student and/or finding balance in medical school? I am really interested in Family Medicine, and Family Medicine - Adolescent Medicine, Psychiatry, and Gynecology & Obstetrics (more in the gyn than the ob); the string here is the patient population I want to serve. While I understand I don't necessarily need to be a gunner to match into any of these, I think finding a balance between school and life is important for anyone. For example, WhiteCoaInvestor said that he regularly ended his studies at 7PM each night because he felt that the effort necessary to go from being an average student to the best student wasn't worth it to him. Did (do) you feel similarly?
 
What advice would you give to yourself if you could go back in time and speak to yourself just before you started medical school?

What attracted you to surgery? Have you found that you've always naturally had good fine motor skills/dexterity, or is this something that you work on when in training? (Only asking because I might be interested in surgery but tend to have poor fine motor control. Wondering how much of a fixable issue this is).
 
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Can you talk about what you think made you an average medical student and/or finding balance in medical school? I am really interested in Family Medicine, and Family Medicine - Adolescent Medicine, Psychiatry, and Gynecology & Obstetrics (more in the gyn than the ob). While I understand I don't necessarily need to be a gunner to match into any of these, I think finding a balance between school and life is important for anyone. For example, WhiteCoaInvestor said that he regularly ended his studies at 7PM each night because he felt that the effort necessary to go from being an average student to the best student wasn't worth it to him. Did (do) you feel similarly?

The balance thing is different for everyone. I never really set deadlines or stopped studying by a certain time, I just kind of continuously studied and took frequent breaks. For the first two years I used the gym as an outlet and my main study break. I think exercise really helped me psychologically.

I think I feel similarly to WhiteCoatInvestor. I'm generally a pretty laid back person and never felt the need to push myself to be at the top of my class. There were times first year where I put in an insane amount of time into studying, and ended up not doing much better than before, so I kind of just stuck with my original routine.
 
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What advice would you give to yourself if you could go back in time and speak to yourself just before you started medical school?

What attracted you to surgery? Have you found that you've always naturally had good fine motor skills/dexterity, or is this something that you work on when in training? (Only asking because I might be interested in surgery but tend to have poor fine motor control. Wondering how much of a fixable issue this is).

I'm not sure I would do anything different if I could do it over again, so if I could give the pre-ms1 version of myself advice it would probably be to keep my head up and keep pushing through, and to enjoy it as much as possible. Med school was a lot of work, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

A lot of things attracted me to surgery. From the post above: I like working with my hands, love the OR, love the idea of being able to have tangible results, love the breadth of the field and the fact that there are about a million subspecialty options. I also got along really well with just about every resident and that definitely factored in as well.

I'm not sure I can comment on how important fine motor control is. Obviously you need to have some amount of dexterity. I think I'm lucky in that I'm generally pretty good in that regard (or at least good enough to where I feel confident it won't be a problem for me during residency). I'll probably have to defer to an actual surgeon. Maybe @Winged Scapula can chime in.
 
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How many aways, and how did you pick them?

Also, did you go in thinking GS?
 
How many aways, and how did you pick them?

Also, did you go in thinking GS?

I did 2 aways. I picked them pretty much based off of geography--I wanted to see what surgery was like in different areas of the country. I sort of viewed it like studying abroad. I've talked about it before in the surgery forums, but away rotations can be risky if your goal is to match there. It's a lot easier to look bad than it is to look good when you're working with people who know a lot more than you do. But it can be a risk worth taking--it obviously worked out for me because I did an away rotation at my top choice and matched there.

I was interested in surgery when I started med school, but knew I needed to keep an open mind. I changed my mind multiple times during 3rd year, and most of my class did as well. My main dilemma was that I enjoyed just about every rotation as a 3rd year. I just ended up enjoying surgery the most.

There used to be a really great "ask a surgery resident anything" thread on this forum years ago, which was hugely informative. Unfortunately it had to be taken down, probably because the poster revealed too much about his specific program. It's a shame though, because that thread really did help a lot of people. I hope I can create something similar several years from now when I have more to offer.
 
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Do you worry about maintaining a family/relationship during the infamously grueling surgical residencies?

Do you feel as though you have enough time to take care of yourself (keeping sane and relaxed) while also being a successful med student?
 
How much do you know about surgery at this point? Can you step into internship year and be able to do some procedures already?
 
Do you worry about maintaining a family/relationship during the infamously grueling surgical residencies?

Do you feel as though you have enough time to take care of yourself (keeping sane and relaxed) while also being a successful med student?

I'm not really worried, mainly because I did 3 years of long distance. It'll be a new kind of challenge for sure, but I'm confident my wife and I will make it through.

I felt I had plenty of time to take care of myself during med school. Med school is all about time management, which you get pretty good at during first year.
 
How much do you know about surgery at this point? Can you step into internship year and be able to do some procedures already?

I know as much as a 4th year entering residency should know, I think. I was lucky and was able to do a lot of procedures during 4th year (a-lines, central lines, chest tubes). I also got to do quite a bit of skin closure in the OR so I feel pretty good about that as well.
 
What was your undergrad major and stats? Any tips looking back at your premedical years?

Are you interested in specializing within surgery? Why GenSurg vs. Ortho/Neurosurg/etc?
What other specialties did you seriously consider? Did you know you wanted to go into surgery coming into medical school?
 
What was your undergrad major and stats? Any tips looking back at your premedical years?

Are you interested in specializing within surgery? Why GenSurg vs. Ortho/Neurosurg/etc?
What other specialties did you seriously consider? Did you know you wanted to go into surgery coming into medical school?

I majored in philosophy. I had a 3.7 and scored a 31 on the MCAT (I don't know what that translates to with the new MCAT). In retrospect I should have studied more for that test... I basically took it blind. I was basically an average applicant. I applied to 20 schools, only had 3 interviews, and had 2 acceptances and 1 waitlist.

I think getting clinical experience/exposure is super important as a premed so you can get an idea of what you're getting yourself in to. I did quite a bit of "clinical" things which I think helped me make an informed decision.

I'm not sure if I will subspecialize or not, but am guessing I probably will. General surgery is pretty different than ortho/neurosurg and other subspecialties because they manage their patients to a much larger degree, so there is a decent amount of medicine involved (which was hugely appealing to me). That same reason is also what drives some people into subspecialties. It's sort of like how the idea of "shift work" drives some people into EM, and pushes others (like me) away from it.

I considered just about every specialty, except psychiatry. If I didn't go into surgery I probably would have gone into IM and done pulm/cc, because I really enjoy the complexity of critical care.
 
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Now that I'm done with all of my ms4 requirements and have already matched, I'm pretty much just sailing until graduation. I found these AMA threads really helpful as a premed so I figured I'd make a new thread and see if I can answer any questions.

Super brief background: I was an average med student and matched into my top choice in general surgery

Maybe @Doctor Strange and/or any other ms4s who post here can chime in as well.

Was your beard key to your success?
 
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@sinombre Ugh, jumped on this too late. Not gonna hijack your thread. Anyone with questions can go to my AMA thread here: https://goo.gl/OyJpJ0
Going into internal medicine, did not match at my top choice but still very happy with where I'm going. Married. Gay. That's pretty much it. Ask away, pre-meddies!
 
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Where do you stand on the Kinsey Scale?
 
Have you found that you've always naturally had good fine motor skills/dexterity, or is this something that you work on when in training? (Only asking because I might be interested in surgery but tend to have poor fine motor control. Wondering how much of a fixable issue this is).

Of course, there are some surgeons who are naturally gifted in terms of dexterity, who learn complex maneuvers faster, etc....those are the ones who are said to have "great hands" on their residency evals. I don't think there is necessarily a requirement for a certain degree of fine motor skill....I mean, you need to have normal function in your hands for the most part, but a lot of surgery boils down to repeating a skill over and over again until muscle memory takes over. Don't discount how much of learning surgery is repetition and muscle memory - for example, a resident was asking me about a little flip move I do to reload the needle on a backhand stitch and I honestly had to grab a needle driver to see what exactly I was doing, because it's just not something I think about. I guess there are some operations - sewing the coronaries on an off-pump CABG, microvascular anastomoses, etc - which may magnify issues with dexterity, but perhaps those fields tend to attract the more nimble-fingered residents as well.

Bottom line, there are plenty of people (like myself) who aren't necessarily the most dextrous (but may have other skills such as depth perception, ability to see the operative field as a whole, ability to think through the steps of a procedure, good clinical judgment, etc)....and it's not a problem. There is a lot more than manual dexterity involved in being a good surgeon, and as the saying goes, you can teach a monkey to operate....
 
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Thanks for doing this! Did you do any sort of research in medical school to make yourself a more competitive applicant?
 
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Thanks for doing this! Did you do any sort of research in medical school to make yourself a more competitive applicant?

Sure, no prob. I did work on a couple of projects. I had 3 poster presentations and 0 publications when I applied (although I'll probably have one publication within a few months). The non-top general surgery programs (i.e. programs that don't require 2 research years) don't require a ton of research. Although it always helps to have some.
 
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How important is doing research in medical school for applying to residencies?
 
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I'm sure I'll come back with questions but just wanted to drop a congratulations on the accomplishments. Finishing school, getting a match you're seemingly extremely happy with, and planning a future for yourself and your wife, keep on keeping on.
 
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How important is doing research in medical school for applying to residencies?

Completely depends on the specialty. For some specialties it is 100% necessary. For others it doesn't matter so much. Even within certain specialties, it will matter more or less for different kinds of programs. As a rule of thumb, it is more important at academic programs than community programs (which is kind of intuitive). But regardless, research is never a negative thing and will pretty much always help an application. As long as a med student isn't sacrificing grades/studying for research, it's probably a good idea to do to some extent.
 
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I'm sure I'll come back with questions but just wanted to drop a congratulations on the accomplishments. Finishing school, getting a match you're seemingly extremely happy with, and planning a future for yourself and your wife, keep on keeping on.

Thanks for the comment!
 
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I didn't go to lecture and listened to everything on podcast sped up 1.5-2x. That way I was able to pause, write something down/look something up, and then speed through the less important parts. I felt it was a more productive way for me to study than going to lecture.

Did you try lecture for a bit before doing it this way? Was it isolating at times to learn solo in this way?

Great post :)
 
Of course, there are some surgeons who are naturally gifted in terms of dexterity, who learn complex maneuvers faster, etc....those are the ones who are said to have "great hands" on their residency evals. I don't think there is necessarily a requirement for a certain degree of fine motor skill....I mean, you need to have normal function in your hands for the most part, but a lot of surgery boils down to repeating a skill over and over again until muscle memory takes over. Don't discount how much of learning surgery is repetition and muscle memory - for example, a resident was asking me about a little flip move I do to reload the needle on a backhand stitch and I honestly had to grab a needle driver to see what exactly I was doing, because it's just not something I think about. I guess there are some operations - sewing the coronaries on an off-pump CABG, microvascular anastomoses, etc - which may magnify issues with dexterity, but perhaps those fields tend to attract the more nimble-fingered residents as well.

Bottom line, there are plenty of people (like myself) who aren't necessarily the most dextrous (but may have other skills such as depth perception, ability to see the operative field as a whole, ability to think through the steps of a procedure, good clinical judgment, etc)....and it's not a problem. There is a lot more than manual dexterity involved in being a good surgeon, and as the saying goes, you can teach a monkey to operate....
My thoughts exactly.

I have rock steady hands, not a tremor in sight, but any skills (or lack thereof) I have come from all the practice and muscle memory. Now, very fine microvascular work would require very nimble fingers but IMHO most students interested in surgery overestimate the dexterity required. The muscle memory is strange; sometimes I find myself working with a student who is doing something that "looks weird". Before I can teach them, I have to break down the movements for myself since so much is second nature.

You'll also learn techniques to improve your natural talents; as one of my residency attendings told me, "we all have a tremor, I just don't want to know how much of one you have." His point was that even those with fine tremors or less nimble fingers can find techniques to minimize those and become a decent surgeon.

EDIT: I heard a quote once in regards to decks Darity that's relevant here and that I agree with: about 10% of surgical residents are truly gifted with a pair of golden hands, about 80% are average and can obtain the required skills through dedication and practice, and the remaining 10% are truly disasters and should not be allowed anywhere near an operating room.
 
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Sure, no prob. I did work on a couple of projects. I had 3 poster presentations and 0 publications when I applied (although I'll probably have one publication within a few months). The non-top general surgery programs (i.e. programs that don't require 2 research years) don't require a ton of research. Although it always helps to have some.

Did you do it over the summer between M1 and M2? Do many students do research the full two years on the side, or is that unrealistic in your opinion?
 
But who is free time?
 
Did you try lecture for a bit before doing it this way? Was it isolating at times to learn solo in this way?

Great post :)

Yep, I experimented with different learning styles at the beginning of first year. Podcasting was what worked best for me, but there were plenty of students who went to every single lecture. It's amazing how many learning styles work for different people.

It was definitely somewhat isolating not being at school very often, but I also lived with other med students which helped. Also there were plenty of required activities/labs (eg anatomy lab) so I was still at school several times per week. Just not during lecture.
 
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Did you do it over the summer between M1 and M2? Do many students do research the full two years on the side, or is that unrealistic in your opinion?

I did work on a project over that summer, but only spent maybe a couple of weeks actually working. I spent most of the time relaxing and hanging out with my wife. There are a lot of students (maybe even the majority) who do research during that summer. There is plenty of time to work on research during the first two years, once you learn how to manage your time and how much time you need to dedicate to studying. You can also work on research 3rd year (I did my biggest project during that time), although you are generally busier.

To anyone entering med school this fall: I would recommend holding off on any extracurricular activity until you learn how much time you need to dedicate to studying, that way you avoid biting off more than you can chew. Happened to multiple people in my class who ended up failing the first block. Once you have a routine down, then it makes sense to start pursuing things like research (if that's what you're interested in).
 
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I did work on a project over that summer, but only spent maybe a couple of weeks actually working. I spent most of the time relaxing and hanging out with my wife. There are a lot of students (maybe even the majority) who do research during that summer. There is plenty of time to work on research during the first two years, once you learn how to manage your time and how much time you need to dedicate to studying. You can also work on research 3rd year (I did my biggest project during that time), although you are generally busier.

To anyone entering med school this fall: I would recommend holding off on any extracurricular activity until you learn how much time you need to dedicate to studying, that way you avoid biting off more than you can chew. Happened to multiple people in my class who ended up failing the first block. Once you have a routine down, then it makes sense to start pursuing things like research (if that's what you're interested in).
Great advice. I always wondered how that worked. Thanks a lot!
 
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