PhD/PsyD Ask A Recent Graduate of a Professional School Anything

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cab1234

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New psychologist here who graduated from a professional school within the past 5 years. Aside from revealing personally identifiable information, feel free to ask me anything about my experience attending a FSPP (e.g., training and research experience, internship, EPPP, employment, etc.). I will answer everything as unbiased as I possibly can. The primary purpose of this thread is to inform others who may be considering attending such schools as well as answering some questions current students and psychologists may have.

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I'll bite. Four questions:

1) How was research (both understanding and conducting) integrated into the program? Relatedly, what did the typical dissertation entail? (e.g., did students use archival or original data? how many studies made up the typical dissertation? was there a defense that included an external examiner, etc.)?

2) Re: internship: What were the APA match rates like for your program? What was your experience applying for and interviewing for internship? Were you happy with your internship placement?

3) How much debt did you (and/or the typical student) have at the end of training?

4) Would you do it again, if you could go back?
 
I'll bite. Four questions:


1) How was research (both understanding and conducting) integrated into the program? Relatedly, what did the typical dissertation entail? (e.g., did students use archival or original data? how many studies made up the typical dissertation? was there a defense that included an external examiner, etc.)?


There were two statistics courses and two research methodology courses. By the time students graduate the ones who actually paid attention understand how to run basic ANOVAs, chi squares, and regressions. I taught myself most of my statistics for my dissertation with my chair and committee members shrugging their shoulders when I asked questions. I wish I knew more, honestly. I really enjoy research.


There were a lot of dissertations that used a convenience sample, usually survey data with psychology graduate students and psychologists. Some of the more serious neuropsych students used archival data, and there were many qualitative designs. I was able to obtain a clinical sample which I was told was “exceptional” since nobody did such a thing.


Re: how many studies made up the typical dissertation. Could you re-phrase that? Do you mean how many studies were pulled from the dataset?


The defense typically included a chair and two committee members, all professors from your program.


Virtually no faculty or students published in my program. I was able to get 2 pubs by the time I graduated but only because I created independent study courses and used my pre-existing relationships with psychology staff from my undergraduate university. Many students stated they were completely uninterested in research and that’s why they pursued the Psy.D. Also, while “evidence-based treatment” were buzzwords that they knew they should use out in the world, most students believe they can just do whatever because the relationship trumps technique.


2) Re: internship: What were the APA match rates like for your program? What was your experience applying for and interviewing for internship? Were you happy with your internship placement?


50%ish APA match rate for the program but many students did not even apply to APA programs since they did not believe it mattered much for their future careers.


I applied to 18 sites and received 16 interviews. I matched to my #1 spot in round 1 and I was very happy with my experience.


It is worth noting that I also took additional practicum each year and heavily involved myself in the community. I was always trying to find standout from the crowd and I entered my training program with internship in mind. I attribute very little of my success with internship to my program.


3) How much debt did you (and/or the typical student) have at the end of training?


Around $240k.


4) Would you do it again, if you could go back?


The reason I attended a PsyD program is because my GRE scores were too low. I honestly do not know if I could have ever made it into a PhD program because of those numbers. I applied multiple times with little success.

Was the training worth $240k? Absolutely not but I do have a career I love that I otherwise may have not been able to have.

In my program it was entirely too easy to coast through. Take easy adjuncts, know who the easy dissertations chairs were, etc. Were there some exceptional professors and students? Absolutely. However, most of the students stayed on their predetermined trajectory, did not pursue additional training experiences, gossiped about how busy they were, and were shocked when they did not match for internship.
 
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There were two statistics courses and two research methodology courses. By the time students graduate the ones who actually paid attention understand how to run basic ANOVAs, chi squares, and regressions. I taught myself most of my statistics for my dissertation with my chair and committee members shrugging their shoulders when I asked questions. I wish I knew more, honestly. I really enjoy research.


There were a lot of dissertations that used a convenience sample, usually survey data with psychology graduate students and psychologists. Some of the more serious neuropsych students used archival data, and there were many qualitative designs. I was able to obtain a clinical sample which I was told was “exceptional” since nobody did such a thing.


Re: how many studies made up the typical dissertation. Could you re-phrase that? Do you mean how many studies were pulled from the dataset?


The defense typically included a chair and two committee members, all professors from your program.


Virtually no faculty or students published in my program. I was able to get 2 pubs by the time I graduated but only because I created independent study courses and used my pre-existing relationships with psychology staff from my undergraduate university. Many students stated they were completely uninterested in research and that’s why they pursued the Psy.D. Also, while “evidence-based treatment” were buzzwords that they knew they should use out in the world, most students believe they can just do whatever because the relationship trumps technique.





50%ish APA match rate for the program but many students did not even apply to APA programs since they did not believe it mattered much for their future careers.


I applied to 18 sites and received 16 interviews. I matched to my #1 spot in round 1 and I was very happy with my experience.


It is worth noting that I also took additional practicum each year and heavily involved myself in the community. I was always trying to find standout from the crowd and I entered my training program with internship in mind. I attribute very little of my success with internship to my program.





Around $240k.





The reason I attended a PsyD program is because my GRE scores were too low. I honestly do not know if I could have ever made it into a PhD program because of those numbers. I applied multiple times with little success.

Was the training worth $240k? Absolutely not but I do have a career I love that I otherwise may have not been able to have.

In my program it was entirely too easy to coast through. Take easy adjuncts, know who the easy dissertations chairs were, etc. Were there some exceptional professors and students? Absolutely. However, most of the students stayed on their predetermined trajectory, did not pursue additional training experiences, gossiped about how busy they were, and were shocked when they did not match for internship.

Was your internship APA accredited?
 
Thanks for your candid answers! It sounds as though you worked hard to make the most of opportunities outside of your program (e.g., from your undergraduate institution and the community as a whole). It's unfortunate you had to do that. I am glad that you experienced a generally positive outcome, though, aside from the debt.

The "number of studies" question-- In my program, all dissertations are original data collection and most represent between 2 and 4 different studies. (Some people do one-study dissertations, but these typically involve complex or longitudinal designs and/or difficult-to-recruit samples.) The idea is to conduct a program of research. So a student might ask a question, run a study and analyze the data, and then run 1-3 follow up studies to replicate and extend the results or to ask a related question. It sounds as though most dissertations in your program were a single study, which I thought would be the case. I was a little disappointed to hear about the lack of external examiners, though, since I think that's a really important quality-control measure. :(

Thanks again! Hopefully this will be a good resource for students considering this route.
 
Thanks for your candid answers! It sounds as though you worked hard to make the most of opportunities outside of your program (e.g., from your undergraduate institution and the community as a whole). It's unfortunate you had to do that. I am glad that you experienced a generally positive outcome, though, aside from the debt.

The "number of studies" question-- In my program, all dissertations are original data collection and most represent between 2 and 4 different studies. (Some people do one-study dissertations, but these typically involve complex or longitudinal designs and/or difficult-to-recruit samples.) The idea is to conduct a program of research. So a student might ask a question, run a study and analyze the data, and then run 1-3 follow up studies to replicate and extend the results or to ask a related question. It sounds as though most dissertations in your program were a single study, which I thought would be the case. I was a little disappointed to hear about the lack of external examiners, though, since I think that's a really important quality-control measure. :(

Thanks again! Hopefully this will be a good resource for students considering this route.

Glad I could answer your questions. I hope others will ask some of their own and I hope I can continue to give as level-headed responses as I can. Spending $200k-$250k on a degree is a choice someone should not make lightly. I think many of the FSPP critics around here will not find me very dismissive of some of their arguments.
 
Cab1234, given your close relationship with undergrad professors and you freedom (in terms of schedule) to engage in community and practica involvements, is it safe to guess you are a traditional student in your 20's?

Also, can you please speak of job searching with respect to the debt load?
 
Cab1234, given your close relationship with undergrad professors and you freedom (in terms of schedule) to engage in community and practica involvements, is it safe to guess you are a traditional student in your 20's?

Also, can you please speak of job searching with respect to the debt load?

Yes I was a traditional student (a few years older than some of my peers since I tried to get into PhD programs for a couple of years). I was unmarried, no children, and had time to take on those extra clinical and research experiences. I mean, it's not like I was on research teams or anything for 20-25 hours/week (and I'm sure many of you will chuckle and tell me that it was 20-25 hours on paper only!) :) While many of my cohort complained about having so little time, I was able to realize that there were students in other programs who were doing more. I wanted to be competitive so I took on additional training experiences to do so. I had friends in PhD programs so I often compared myself to them.

With regard to job searching, I sought government jobs so I could a) have a decent salary and benefits and b) apply for Public Loan Forgiveness after 10 years. I'm on Income Based Repayment (IBR) so I pay 15% of my salary towards my loans. After 10 years, if I don't make a payment, the rest of my debt will be forgiven. It will be a sizable amount and, while it's good for me, I ask myself where will that money disappear from? The reserves of the Department of Education? The hands of the taxpayers? Eck...

15% of your income every month for 10 years will not devastate your lifestyle but it certainly is an inconvenience. Like most things though, you get accustomed to it.
 
Further, some government jobs will throw some money at your student loans in relation to number of years served. However, such incentives are harder to come by in this day and age and the amount they are willing to help with can vary quite a bit depending on government (state, federal, etc), agency, and location.
 
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It is also worth noting that many of the students in my cohort wanted to only perform traditional psychotherapy/counseling and a pretty sizable amount aspired to go into private practice.
 
In your opinion, why do you think this segment of applicants is willing to take on 3-4times the debt that would actually be needed to accomplish that goal (private practice psychotherapy). Have these people never heard of Licensed clinical social workers, marriage and family therapists, etc? Its not like these are obscure professions. Is it missunderstading of mental health service delivery? Lack of concern about debt? Love of a the "Dr." title?

Do faculty provide any guidance about the financial ceiling the average private practice psychotherapy provider agrees to be a part of? Most of these people arent going to be doing cash only practices, obvioulsy. Similarly, is there any professional guidance from faculty that "psychologist" (at the doctoral-level) is actually much more than a psychotherapy service agent.
 
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Thanks, cab1234, seems like you put a lot of consideration into your choice and enhanced your program to be competitive. I appreciate you making yourself available to this forum!
 
Thanks for this thread!

1. Did you have any issues with your program's reception by potential practica sites?
2. Have you been/do you plan to be involved with research as a psychologist?
3. Would you recommend the FSPS route to others in similar situation?
4. Do you think that your program honestly represented itself and its training during the admissions process?
 
T
The "number of studies" question-- In my program, all dissertations are original data collection and most represent between 2 and 4 different studies. (Some people do one-study dissertations, but these typically involve complex or longitudinal designs and/or difficult-to-recruit samples.) The idea is to conduct a program of research.

In fairness, this approach does not seem to me to be the modal one in the field. The OP has outpaced the majority of graduates by having two pubs.

1. I'm curious if, in retrospect, you still think that you "may not have been able to have" your career otherwise. I've perceived many non-traditional students to think this, but as faculty now it has not been my experience (I rather like working with non-traditional students). Seems to me like you capitalized on your training and you'd only have been MORE successful at a funded program.

2. Many posters come to the forum stating that they expect to be the exception at their program (with a 6% APA match rate, no accreditation at all, etc.). I'd anticipate that most people do not have as good an outcome as you yet have the expectation that they too will be exceptions. What advice would you give those students?
 
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In fairness, this approach does not seem to me to be the modal one in the field. The OP has outpaced the majority of graduates by having two pubs.

I didn't mean for my question about multiple studies to be a criticism. Actually, the first two studies in my dissertation had some minor methodological problems (e.g., a manipulation didn't work, etc.) and showed null results, so they will never be published. ;) It is interesting to hear that most Ph.D. programs also don't require multiple studies, though. Maybe my program could finally get its mean completion rates under 6.5 years (including internship) if they relaxed this requirement...
 
In your opinion, why do you think this segment of applicants is willing to take on 3-4times the debt that would actually be needed to accomplish that goal (private practice psychotherapy). Have these people never heard of Licensed clinical social workers, marriage and family therapists, etc? Its not like these are obscure professions. Is it missunderstading of mental health service delivery? Lack of concern about debt? Love of a the "Dr." title?

Do faculty provide any guidance about the financial ceiling the average private practice psychotherapy provider agrees to be a part of? Most of these people arent going to be doing cash only practices, obvioulsy. Similarly, is there any professional guidance from faculty that "psychologist" (at the doctoral-level) is actually much more than a psychotherapy service agent.
I'll bite on this one since I racked up a pretty good debt myself. For me, I wanted to be a psychologist - not a social worker or marriage counselor. My exemplars and role models were psychologists, I can't even think of a famous social worker. I also did not want to limit myself and it seemed that the other mental health degrees had some limits. Also, from a financial standpoint, I saw jobs for MA level people paying 40 to 50 regardless of experience and starting pay for a psychologist at 80k. To me that added up to being able to pay down my debt, but still have more income than the MA people.

The final reason is that when I was starting out, I did not have a lot of guidance and if I had to do it again, I might have tried harder to get into a fully-funded program. I am really glad that I attended a professional school that was attached to a university and doesn't crank out 100's of grads a year, but the truth is that if I hadn't been accepted, then i would have probably went to what was called CSPP at the time. I think it is Alliant now.

As far as the Dr title goes. Most people like to point out that I am not a "real" Dr. or get confused as to why I can't prescribe so it doesn't do that much for me. For me, my goal was to be a psychologist, that means more to me than the Dr title. I am a true believer in our profession and IMO we have a unique set of skills that gives us an edge over the other mental health professions. I cringe at the "I just want to be a therapist" stuff. To me, that is about a tenth of what we bring to the table and the rest of our skill set can contribute to making us the best therapists, as well. I employed MA level providers and saw their limitations first hand. Some of them were damn good therapists, too, but I was hired to be the boss for a reason and my status as a licensed psychologist was a requirement for that.
 
For me, I wanted to be a psychologist - not a social worker or marriage counselor. My exemplars and role models were psychologists, I can't even think of a famous social worker. I also did not want to limit myself and it seemed that the other mental health degrees had some limits. Also, from a financial standpoint, I saw jobs for MA level people paying 40 to 50 regardless of experience and starting pay for a psychologist at 80k. To me that added up to being able to pay down my debt, but still have more income than the MA people.

Right. Thats my point. They want to be therapists. Do they want to be psychologists though?
 
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In your opinion, why do you think this segment of applicants is willing to take on 3-4times the debt that would actually be needed to accomplish that goal (private practice psychotherapy). Have these people never heard of Licensed clinical social workers, marriage and family therapists, etc? Its not like these are obscure professions. Is it missunderstading of mental health service delivery? Lack of concern about debt? Love of a the "Dr." title?
Do faculty provide any guidance about the financial ceiling the average private practice psychotherapy provider agrees to be a part of? Most of these people arent going to be doing cash only practices, obvioulsy. Similarly, is there any professional guidance from faculty that "psychologist" (at the doctoral-level) is actually much more than a psychotherapy service agent.

You present some difficult questions that I don’t think I have great answers to but I’ll try.
I think many individuals assume that in this field education and income have this nice positive correlational relationship. Therefore, it is assumed that a doctoral-level therapist will be making much more than a masters-level therapist. I have personally investigated reimbursement rates for one insurance company with regard to rates in my area and the reimbursement rates for doctoral-level therapists is only slightly higher. This was not once addressed in my doctoral training. Overall, I think many folks think they’ll be getting paid
much higher than what is usually the case.

Re: lack of concern about debt. Yes. Most students in my cohort did not seem terribly concerned with their debt until they had to pay it off. Why? I’m not so sure. Perhaps since many came from undergraduate and may have little experience providing for themselves financially, perhaps they were naïve? Maybe it has something to do with not actually seeing the money or really having to deal much with it? Or perhaps because they’re surrounded my staff and students who also think it’s a good idea and therefore there’s the social support piece.
Is there an appeal of being called a doctor? Sure. I’ve seen previous colleagues refer to themselves as “future doctors” and tell others outside of the field that they’re “going to be a doctor.” Also, keep in mind that my school’s cohorts are huge. I think I graduated with 80 people? Therefore, while I may have seen more incidents of such behaviors, I wonder if the percentage is similar to what would be found in a PhD program? In a cohort of 10, maybe
some of you may know “that one guy/girl.”

Thanks, cab1234, seems like you put a lot of consideration into your choice and enhanced your program to be competitive. I appreciate you making yourself available to this forum!

Thank you. I’m glad I can help.

Thanks for this thread!
1. Did you have any issues with your program's reception by potential practica sites?
2. Have you been/do you plan to be involved with research as a psychologist?
3. Would you recommend the FSPS route to others in similar situation?
4. Do you think that your program honestly represented itself and its training during the admissions process?

1. Getting into practica sites that really emphasize evidence-based treatments and science (e.g., VA hospital, general teaching hospital, university clinics…these were typically very popular sites) was difficult for many students. Was this because they were Psy.D. students or because the area is completely saturated with doctoral students? Hard to tell. As you may imagine, matching 80 students/cohort to sites is a feat in itself and there are only so many prime spots. ..not to mention the PsyD and PhD students from other schools in the area.

2. I am a new psychologist so I haven’t had much of a chance to be involved in research as a psych yet. I am absolutely interested and I plan to continue producing research in my areas of interest. I’ll just need to ensure one of my co-authors is more knowledgably in statistics than I J

3. I decided to attend a Psy.D. program because I enjoy psych testing (due to lab experiences in undergrad) and wanted to do other work outside of traditional clinical practice. I obtained an internship that involved a good amount of testing and my current job also involves a good amount of testing. My interests are very different than the average Psy.D. applicant though. Even for those with similar interests as mine, finding a niche that is conducive to these interests is also difficult. With all that being said I would imagine 8 or 9 times out of 10 I would recommend against it.

4. In retrospect, it depends on how you define honesty J Were the things they told us untrue? No I don’t think so. Did they withhold information or not explain things that would ordinarily be unknown to folks fresh out of graduate school? Perhaps. Applicants did not know better to ask some pertinent questions and therefore they are not addressed. If the questions were asked they would probably get a true response…if they were asked.

I have to go now. I’ll answer more questions later!
 
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Do you know what your fellow graduates are up to, particularly the ones who didn't match to APA internship sites? What kind of jobs are they getting?
 
Right. Thats my point. They want to be therapists. Do they want to be psychologists though?
I agree and I bristle when I am called a therapist. I really think that we need to continue to promote a psychologist as the expert in psychology. I fear that our profession is letting our name or "brand" be diluted. Although I agree that just cranking out the grads is part of the problem. I also think that too much focus on that could be counterproductive. United we stand, divided we fall sort of thing. To wit, I would never criticize any of my colleagues who went to a FSPP to any other professional or member of the public. However, I have criticized and will continue to publicly denounce online degree programs. Also, I agree that an APA school and an APA internship should be essential for licensure and that the fix to the internship crisis would be to limit enrollments to placements. So if you only placed 50 out of 100, then you could only enroll 50 the next year or maybe 60 to allow for other factors, you get the gist. That is an easy fix, too bad it won't happen as that 50 students times I don't know how many campuses and high tuition is a lot of money some of which ends up flowing into the APA.

I know I might be digressing a bit from the topic so to get it back there, I would like to hear recent grad's opinion on this too.
 
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It is interesting to hear that most Ph.D. programs also don't require multiple studies, though. Maybe my program could finally get its mean completion rates under 6.5 years (including internship) if they relaxed this requirement...

My very research-intensive lab in a research-heavy PCSAS-accredited program rarely has students run more than one project for their dissertation.

I think there is too much variability in the type of research being done to make much sense of the # of projects, as our completion time is also about 6.5 years. If its typical in your program to do surveys of undergrads, online studies or smaller-scale projects where it is reasonable to get the sample in a semester, I can see why they would want a couple projects. Four studies for the type of work we do would entail about 4 years of straight data collection, even assuming no time in between projects. Heck, its taking me about a year (minus a month for internship interviews) to get my n of 40. Tough sample to get with an exceedingly low show rate (~30%), three lab sessions that are each 2-3 hours and take two people to run, etc. Don't even want to think about how long it would take if I had to do four of these.
 
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Just wanted to add my experience-I'm at a university based PsyD program with a small cohort (23) and am happy with the experience overall. We do have courses in research methods and stats which we are required to take and complete a fairly comprehensive research study for our dissertation. This of course can differ between labs but I think they're all pretty intense (though not as much I'm sure as PhD requirements) I'm hoping to publish after I am complete, which most of the older years in my lab have gone on to do. I feel like the classes were vigorous and gave us a great foundation in therapeutic technique. We are also required to see patients in our student clinic and choose to do either the dynamic or CBT track and get really amazing supervision and classes that reflect our work there. In terms of internship, we’re located in New York and 22/23 of us matched, with 20 of us getting APA sites. I got my top choice, an APA AMC. The debt is a huge concern, and to offset some of it I was able to live with family and work- a lot of people including myself were able to find jobs that paid and also gave us APPIC hours, either through externships or contacts we had made. My school also gave me some funding though not as much as I would have liked. I’m really concerned about the debt as most of us are, though I had gone into this wanting to work in a hospital setting in less privileged areas so it will probably be IBR for me. I chose to take this route because I had worked in the field a bit and was aware of the training different degrees provide. I would have liked to do a fully funded program but I was geographically restricted and in a competitive area. There is a part of me of course that regrets not being less geographically restricted and trying to obtain a fully funded program. However, besides concerns about debt I have no worries about the training I received or the experience that I’ve had. Once I get into the field in a year I'll be able to say more about the debt and any further regrets (or hopefully allerviation of) I'm glad though that both the positive and negative sides of this route are being discussed
 
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Just wanted to add my experience-I'm at a university based PsyD program with a small cohort (23) and am happy with the experience overall. We do have courses in research methods and stats which we are required to take and complete a fairly comprehensive research study for our dissertation. This of course can differ between labs but I think they're all pretty intense (though not as much I'm sure as PhD requirements) I'm hoping to publish after I am complete, which most of the older years in my lab have gone on to do. I feel like the classes were vigorous and gave us a great foundation in therapeutic technique. We are also required to see patients in our student clinic and choose to do either the dynamic or CBT track and get really amazing supervision and classes that reflect our work there. In terms of internship, we’re located in New York and 22/23 of us matched, with 20 of us getting APA sites. I got my top choice, an APA AMC. The debt is a huge concern, and to offset some of it I was able to live with family and work- a lot of people including myself were able to find jobs that paid and also gave us APPIC hours, either through externships or contacts we had made. My school also gave me some funding though not as much as I would have liked. I’m really concerned about the debt as most of us are, though I had gone into this wanting to work in a hospital setting in less privileged areas so it will probably be IBR for me. I chose to take this route because I had worked in the field a bit and was aware of the training different degrees provide. I would have liked to do a fully funded program but I was geographically restricted and in a competitive area. There is a part of me of course that regrets not being less geographically restricted and trying to obtain a fully funded program. However, besides concerns about debt I have no worries about the training I received or the experience that I’ve had. Once I get into the field in a year I'll be able to say more about the debt and any further regrets (or hopefully allerviation of) I'm glad though that both the positive and negative sides of this route are being discussed
As you were describing your program, for a moment I thought it was the same one I attended, until I saw that you were located on the other coast. I think that there is a place for well-run high quality professional schools and I think that quality psychologists can come from that model. Sounds like my program had more diverse practicum placements and yours had a better APA match result. I also did an original research dissertation and I think that is an element that is marketable and impressive regardless of which institution you attended. I need to be working on getting it published. Thanks for reminding me.
 
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we did practicums as well- the norm was 3 year long and 1 summer; I'm glad to hear from you about your experience- are you working yet, or still in school? Do you mind me asking how paying back the loans has been?
 
In fairness, this approach does not seem to me to be the modal one in the field. The OP has outpaced the majority of graduates by having two pubs.


1. I'm curious if, in retrospect, you still think that you "may not have been able to have" your career otherwise. I've perceived many non-traditional students to think this, but as faculty now it has not been my experience (I rather like working with non-traditional students). Seems to me like you capitalized on your training and you'd only have been MORE successful at a funded program.


2. Many posters come to the forum stating that they expect to be the exception at their program (with a 6% APA match rate, no accreditation at all, etc.). I'd anticipate that most people do not have as good an outcome as you yet have the expectation that they too will be exceptions. What advice would you give those students?

1) Yes. Given the environment in which I wanted to work and the tasks I wanted to perform I needed a doctoral degree. I touched a bit on this in a previous response. Let me know if you want me to elaborate and I will do so. In short, I wanted to work for the government and I like variety in my clinical work (with a strong dose of testing).

2) The advice I would give can be summarized in two words: prepare and document.

Prepare. Let’s take internship for example. As soon as possible find out what kind of internship hours are required for sites you may be interested in. Say you discover you need 500 intervention hours and 200 assessment hours to apply to nearly all the spots you're interested in. Now you have a few years to reach that. Don’t think you’re going to make it? Maybe you should take another practicum. Afraid you may not have enough relevant work experience in your area of interest? Seek it out. Do they want evidence of scholarship? Find a way to get it. Knowing expectations up front will give you time to strive towards achieving it. Preparation is absolutely essential. You have to think ahead.

Document. This of course goes hand-in-hand with my previous point. You are building an argument with your CV. Lip service will not cut it. You have to have examples of why you are a competent clinician. If you want to communicate you’re a hard worker, it’s better to have proof than to merely state it. Would someone believe you if you told them you're well versed in research yet you have no pubs or presentation? You very well could be but it helps a lot to have documented evidence of this.

If you think you’re a top student you should have a CV that reflects it.

Prepare, work your butt off (initiative is the nice way to put it but it doesn't have the same "oomph"), and document your efforts.
 
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we did practicums as well- the norm was 3 year long and 1 summer; I'm glad to hear from you about your experience- are you working yet, or still in school? Do you mind me asking how paying back the loans has been?
I am licensed and working. I just started a new position and have just received approval for loan repayment program through National Health Service Corps so that will give me about 25k per year in loan repayment. That will put a dent in the mountain of debt. For the past few years I have been paying a small amount that keeps going up a little each year. Fortunately my salary has been going up as well and with this new position, I think I see some light at the end of the tunnel. I do not regret my choice to become a psychologist and I feel that my program provided me with excellent preparation and the job market has responded well.
 
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Do you know what your fellow graduates are up to, particularly the ones who didn't match to APA internship sites? What kind of jobs are they getting?

Many of them I haven't spoken to in awhile (another con of big cohorts..in my opinion they do not tend to be very cohesive). The ones I do keep in touch with who did not match to APA internship sites are working in the following: outpatient eating disorder clinics, outpatient community mental health centers, residential substance abuse treatment facilities, county and state jails, and private practice. I personally have not asked them about their struggles with job searches so I cannot attest to that. I do know that at several of these sites that their positions are often filled by masters-level social workers and counselors. For instance, "Ann", the clinical psychologist, may be a unit supervisor for Unit A at the facility while "John", MSW, may be unit supervisor for Unit B. No idea how much difference in salary there would be between the two but I imagine not much...
 
With regard to the quality of clinical training...

My program was large. Huge, even, and with such size comes variability in training. With that said, a motivated student could receive great training in the classroom by enrolling in class sections (one course may have 2-5 sections each semester) that are being taught by core faculty members (vs. adjuncts) who have a reputation for knowing their stuff. On the opposite end, lazy students could coast through much easier by selecting professors they know to be substandard. Similar tactics can be used in clinical training experiences. Therefore, the answer to "Can you receive good clinical training at your program?" is "it depends." Student motivation and autonomy is important in programs such as mine. Not straying from the herd could lead you to mediocrity.
 
Would faculty ever "weed out" students in say, their third or fourth year? For reasons like failing comprehensive exams or maybe even getting fired from a practicum site? Obviously, I do not know which school you attended, but I have heard stories of this happening at a certain professional school. Apparently, this school has a bad habit of admitting students who can't handle the demands of a clinical psychology graduate program, but instead of weeding them out in the first year (or not admitting them to begin with!!), they wait until the students are further along and have already invested a great deal of their time and money with nothing to show for it (except for maybe an M.A. in Clinical Psychology that they acquired en route).
 
With regard to the quality of clinical training...

My program was large. Huge, even, and with such size comes variability in training. With that said, a motivated student could receive great training in the classroom by enrolling in class sections (one course may have 2-5 sections each semester) that are being taught by core faculty members (vs. adjuncts) who have a reputation for knowing their stuff. On the opposite end, lazy students could coast through much easier by selecting professors they know to be substandard. Similar tactics can be used in clinical training experiences. Therefore, the answer to "Can you receive good clinical training at your program?" is "it depends." Student motivation and autonomy is important in programs such as mine. Not straying from the herd could lead you to mediocrity.

See, this is my problem with professional programs. I do not doubt that some students can go the extra mile, seek out god clinical training, and get some quality research in as you have done. The problem I have is with the large deal of students who go through, picking the easiest classes and practicums that they can just to get by. Those are the students who scare me. Those are the students who will likely do a disservice to our patients. The bare minimum bar needs to be raised for training purposes, some of these programs have lobbied to lower it way too far.
 
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See, this is my problem with professional programs. I do not doubt that some students can go the extra mile, seek out god clinical training, and get some quality research in as you have done. The problem I have is with the large deal of students who go through, picking the easiest classes and practicums that they can just to get by. Those are the students who scare me. Those are the students who will likely do a disservice to our patients. The bare minimum bar needs to be raised for training purposes, some of these programs have lobbied to lower it way too far.

Very much agreed. I've mentioned this in another thread or two somewhere, but my thoughts are the same as WisNeuro's--programs need to be structured in such a way that someone who does the bare minimum to graduate is still a competent psychologist. I liken it to the old joke, "what do you call the med student who was last in their class? Doctor." I don't think we should compare ourselves to physicians perhaps quite as often as we do, but this is an example where the med school training model, and the job they've done in enforcing appropriate minimum standards, are directly applicable to us.
 
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Would faculty ever "weed out" students in say, their third or fourth year? For reasons like failing comprehensive exams or maybe even getting fired from a practicum site? Obviously, I do not know which school you attended, but I have heard stories of this happening at a certain professional school. Apparently, this school has a bad habit of admitting students who can't handle the demands of a clinical psychology graduate program, but instead of weeding them out in the first year (or not admitting them to begin with!!), they wait until the students are further along and have already invested a great deal of their time and money with nothing to show for it (except for maybe an M.A. in Clinical Psychology that they acquired en route).

This is all guesswork since I didn't personally know these students very well and, in such a large cohort, people could disappear and I would never realize it. I would say maybe 10-15 students either quit the program or were asked to leave for various reasons. However, I think most of them left during the first two years.
 
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Thanks for your reply to my earlier question. I had another question re: internship. I know somebody who goes to an unaccredited professional school (but it is currently in the process of trying to obtain accreditation, the first cohort graduated a year ago I think). The school is placing strict rules on the students applying for internship this fall (e.g., you can only apply to X number of APA sites, you have to apply to X number of sites total). I was wondering two things – did your school have any requirements for where you could apply? Also, how supportive was training while you were applying to internship?
 
Thanks for your reply to my earlier question. I had another question re: internship. I know somebody who goes to an unaccredited professional school (but it is currently in the process of trying to obtain accreditation, the first cohort graduated a year ago I think). The school is placing strict rules on the students applying for internship this fall (e.g., you can only apply to X number of APA sites, you have to apply to X number of sites total). I was wondering two things – did your school have any requirements for where you could apply? Also, how supportive was training while you were applying to internship?

My school recommended applying to 15-20 sites but they did not require a certain percentage of APA-acc/APPIC-acc/unaccredited. While they encouraged higher forms of accredidation they were not required. Some students didn't apply to any APA sites.

With regard to support during internship, there was a good amount of support when the time came to apply. Workshops were held about writing essays, CVs, and cover letters. The training directors also encouraged students to submit their materials for proof reading. Individual meetings with training directors were also routinely offered.

My primary criticism is that internship should be discussed years in advance to adequately prepare students to be competitive applicants. I would imagine most schools do not take this approach but it's one that I personally advocate.
 
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Not to thread hijack, but one of the problems I see with internship being stressed early and often is that programs and/or students are then essentially "training to internship" (ala "training to the test"). Thus, schools and/or students may emphasize getting a large number of hours, for example, rather than paying as much attention as they should to actually using those hours effectively, directing their training to areas in which they're truly interested, and/or developing themselves as professionals. Folks in my program hardly ever even discussed internship until maybe 6-ish months before we applied, and I actually found that to be a rather helpful approach; it allowed me to focus on grad school while I was in grad school. I'd hate to see the grad school approach to internship become akin to what the high school approach to the college application process has turned into. That's just my take, though.

Back on topic, were there enough supports in your program to ensure that all enrolled students were able to get some kind of practicum placement each semester/year?
 
Not to thread hijack, but one of the problems I see with internship being stressed early and often is that programs and/or students are then essentially "training to internship" (ala "training to the test"). Thus, schools and/or students may emphasize getting a large number of hours, for example, rather than paying as much attention as they should to actually using those hours effectively, directing their training to areas in which they're truly interested, and/or developing themselves as professionals. Folks in my program hardly ever even discussed internship until maybe 6-ish months before we applied, and I actually found that to be a rather helpful approach; it allowed me to focus on grad school while I was in grad school. I'd hate to see the grad school approach to internship become akin to what the high school approach to the college application process has turned into. That's just my take, though.

Back on topic, were there enough supports in your program to ensure that all enrolled students were able to get some kind of practicum placement each semester/year?

Valid and well-made points. I suppose we just have different perspectives. As our program's APA match rate was 50% and an APA internship was not negotiable for me, I felt I had to play the game, so to speak.

And yes, surprisingly. Every student placed to a prac site every year. It took a bit of maneuvering at times but it was accomplished.
 
I agree with AA, if the program is good enough and prepares the students adequately for internship, they shouldn't have to stress it early. Each student should have a good application from the virtue of their training. Which, I guess, is one of the reasons for the importance of considering match rates when you apply to grad programs.
 
I agree with AA, if the program is good enough and prepares the students adequately for internship, they shouldn't have to stress it early. Each student should have a good application from the virtue of their training. Which, I guess, is one of the reasons for the importance of considering match rates when you apply to grad programs.

I agree that each student should have a good application based on the virtue of their program. Should. But, since my program's match rate was 50%, several hundreds of students don't match each year, and I would rather not pay another 50k for an additional year of graduate school, matching became a priorty of mine early on. Is it the best strategy? Maybe not but given the context in which I found myself it worked well for me.
 
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cab1234, I'm very grateful, as others, for your candor and forthrightness.

I'm on the cusp of attending a FSPP for the PsyD myself, this fall. I, too, am pursuing the Great Trifecta of research, teaching, and practice. For those who wonder, after 3 years of Ph.D. applications (in which I clearly delineated my 2 years of research experience in a developmental lab at Harvard, 1 year as a clinical research interviewer in a renowned developmental psychobiology lab, 2+ years of clinically-related work in the field, totally acceptable - though admittedly not off-the-charts - GREs, and 1 co-authored article submitted for publication), I finally succumbed to the conclusion that it simply is not always a meritocracy. I refuse to spend my entire life applying in vain, and do not simply want to be a therapist at the masters level.

I plan to investigate internships sites early and tailor my pracs accordingly. I also plan to remain involved in the lab in which I'm currently a clinical research interviewer part-time. I have an idea for the program of research I'd love - someday - to mount. I'll probably elect to take some advanced stats courses on my own time (in all my fabulous free-time, of course).

Any words of wisdom, cab? I'm so wishing I weren't standing here staring straight up at the mountain of future debt before me. But here I am.
 
cab1234, I'm very grateful, as others, for your candor and forthrightness.

I'm on the cusp of attending a FSPP for the PsyD myself, this fall. I, too, am pursuing the Great Trifecta of research, teaching, and practice. For those who wonder, after 3 years of Ph.D. applications (in which I clearly delineated my 2 years of research experience in a developmental lab at Harvard, 1 year as a clinical research interviewer in a renowned developmental psychobiology lab, 2+ years of clinically-related work in the field, totally acceptable - though admittedly not off-the-charts - GREs, and 1 co-authored article submitted for publication), I finally succumbed to the conclusion that it simply is not always a meritocracy. I refuse to spend my entire life applying in vain, and do not simply want to be a therapist at the masters level.

I plan to investigate internships sites early and tailor my pracs accordingly. I also plan to remain involved in the lab in which I'm currently a clinical research interviewer part-time. I have an idea for the program of research I'd love - someday - to mount. I'll probably elect to take some advanced stats courses on my own time (in all my fabulous free-time, of course).

Any words of wisdom, cab? I'm so wishing I weren't standing here staring straight up at the mountain of future debt before me. But here I am.
[/QUOTE]

I see... Being a Harvard grad are you only applying to top programs? One of my friends graduated from Harvard and his attitudes was that he would only go to top PhD programs so he only applied to the top ranked programs. He did get accepted into KU clinical program but he declined to accept it because his father was a physician at KU med and he thought he could do better, so he opted to work at Harvard on a MS degree and reapply the next year. He did not get any offers the next year. He finished his MS degree at Harvard and moved back home with his parents and never got into a PhD program.

Best thing is to apply to different types of programs geographically broad with both PhD and PsyD programs to increase your odds.

Whatever you do, don't reflect an attitude that a FSPP program is inferior or a sign that you are inadequate because you did not get into a PhD program. Maybe counseling or therapy would help you decide on a career path.
 
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No, of course a person shouldn't feel inadequate, but yes, from a quantitative perspective, FSPP are inferior to most all traditional university programs in almost every measurable metric.
 
No, of course a person shouldn't feel inadequate, but yes, from a quantitative perspective, FSPP are inferior to most all traditional university programs in almost every measurable metric.
QUOTE][/QUOTE
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:) generalization... In the application process you won't do well in the interviews if you have the attitude of the program being inferior. Clearly, there are both good and bad PhD programs. PhD bias exist, but you cannot generalize that they are superior to PsyD programs. Some prefer the professional school over a university based model. You cannot say one is superior or inferior to the other.
 
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Superior on measurable metrics of quality and accomplishment. I made that pretty clear, did I not?

This is a fact. If you want to deny it or dispute it, then find a quantifiable metric in which FSPP are often superior and I will happily restract the statement. What say you?
 
Hours of su
He did specify "measurable metric" which is true when you consider EPPP pass rates and APPIC match rates.

And hours of supervised clinical training, and faculty and student publication rates, and involvement and presentation in conferences; and less debt, and percentage practicing evidence based therapies or from an evidence-based perspective, and percentage employed 1 year post internship.
 
Hours of su


And hours of supervised clinical training, and faculty and student publication rates, and involvement and presentation in conferences; and less debt, and percentage practicing evidence based therapies or from an evidence-based perspective, and percentage employed 1 year post internship.

Again, different models skew these statistic to favor PhD model and EPPP is mostly general psychology. APPIC match is misleading due to imbalance and only 50% APA sites.

Again, Statistic lie!!! :)
 
Again, different models skew these statistic to favor PhD model and EPPP is mostly general psychology. APPIC match is misleading due to imbalance and only 50% APA sites.

Again, Statistic lie!!! :)

I don't know if I'd agree that the APPIC match data is misleading, as all folks have equal access to the sites, and all are equally burdened by the imbalance. Actually, if you think about it, on the surface, looking at match rates would seem to favor programs with larger numbers of students, given that if you've only got 6 people applying and one doesn't match, you're already down to almost 80% for that year.

Same goes for EPPP; I don't really know how it favors the PhD model over the PsyD model. Same can be said for employment and licensure rates (with the latter in particular being influenced by EPPP pass rates, of course).

I can say that in my limited experience, when reviewing internship and fellowship apps from students from professional schools (even some of the more reputable ones like Nova), by and large, there's been a substantive difference in the quality and diversity of training experiences compared to most "traditional" PhD programs. This also trickles down to the quality of essay and interview responses. There's also a LOT more variability amongst students from the same program, even in the same application cycle, when looking at professional schools.

This of course isn't to say that I haven't seen relatively solid applications from professional school students. But at least in my (again, limited) experiences, that's unfortunately been more the exception than the norm.
 
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