At about what point does undergrad prestige matter?

[indya]

Before you tell me to just use the search function, know that I have seen all of the threads which basically say that the prestige of your undergrad can only help you in the admissions process. However, none of these threads say at what point it starts to help. Top 10? Top 20? Top 30? I realize that it isn't really quantifiable, and rankings don't necessarily correlate with prestige, so I am just looking for a very rough estimate with probably minimal certainty.

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[NickNaylor]

How can anyone say with any certainty? This question makes me feel like your signature.

 

[gettheleadout]

Don't worry about it. You can't possibly know, and even if you could would you change schools over it? Would you be able to transfer to a "good" enough school anyway? Just forget about it.

 

[Doc of the Walk]

At the same point two parallel lines intersect. But seriously, i don't think anyone knows if it really matters at all.

 

[JJMrK]

Before you tell me to just use the search function, know that I have seen all of the threads which basically say that the prestige of your undergrad can only help you in the admissions process. However, none of these threads say at what point it starts to help. Top 10? Top 20? Top 30? I realize that it isn't really quantifiable, and rankings don't necessarily correlate with prestige, so I am just looking for a very rough estimate with probably minimal certainty.

That's your answer. Some admissions committees actually do try to quantify it, but there's no way to know how unless you're on one that does this. Plus, it's going to vary tremendously from school to school.

Focus on putting together a solid application; GPA, MCAT, and ECs are way more important than where you went to school. Don't stress about the things you can't change.

 

[mmmcdowe]

It doesn't matter how prestigious an undergrad is if you were miserable there and end up a bazillion dollars in debt prior to medical school. The debt alone could make you give up a top 10 medical school in exchange for a full ride at your in state public.

 

[AllDay24]

It doesn't matter how prestigious an undergrad is if you were miserable there and end up a bazillion dollars in debt prior to medical school. The debt alone could make you give up a top 10 medical school in exchange for a full ride at your in state public.

It also doesn't matter how unprestigious an undergrad is if you were miserable there and end up a bazillion dollars in debt prior to medical school.

Get your facts straight. GW is the most expensive school in the country and is not nearly the most prestigious school. Harvard, Princeton, and Yale are the most prestigious yet throw money at you even though everyone already wants to go there.

I know plenty more people who were unchallenged and miserable at a public undergrad than the other way around.

 

[Hah]

I got into GW and Princeton and wound up going to my state school because I got a full ride. I never regretted my decision... after going to 8 interviews and seing the tuition of medical schools I am so happy that I have 0 loans to pay back for undergraduate. I'm also leaning towards my state school for medical school - you get the same education at any med school so why spend so much money? Basically, if you do well in your undergraduate and have solid EC's you'll be fine. I've interviewed with people from Columbia, Harvard, Cornell and all of them are in the same place that I'm at with probably a lot more financial burden. But to answer your question the prestige of the school probably only matters when adcoms are trying to tease apart to identical applicants as a last resort... which is so very rare.

 

[Barcu]

I know plenty more people who were unchallenged and miserable at a public undergrad than the other way around.

This is good advice too. Make sure to go to a school that you know you can thrive there. I went to a state school, I loved it, and I did well enough to get into some med schools. However, that does make that the best option. I have seen otherwise smart students crash and burn at a large, unstructured state school. While my science classes have been pretty challenging, and I have taken honors courses when I can (which are very good), not all the classes are real rigorous. But the resources in terms of clubs and available lab positions were a real plus.

People are so quick on this board to just respond: go to the cheapest school. It doesn't matter how much money you save if you don't get into med school.

Money and prestige should be taken into consideration. However, they are not the deciding factors.

To get back to your original post, maybe check with some schools about where there grads go. That might give you a good idea if the school will prepare you well (be careful though, these stats can be misleading).

 

[Pons Asinorum]

I realize that it isn't really quantifiable...

Then why ask? What was the consensus in hSDN? I feel like you just pop up every now and then because you actually enjoy the inevitable game of Whack-A-Mole you generate.

 

[rhesuspieces]

I know plenty more people who were unchallenged and miserable at a public undergrad than the other way around.

Well, that's probably their fault. The difference between a huge public and small, elite, private undergrad is at the huge public university you have to seek out challenges for yourself. Most classes aren't innately challenging...that's why you take honors courses, do research, do a thesis, take grad level classes, etc.

As far as the value of prestige goes, I think going to a very prestigious undergrad institution is sort of like being a URM. It isn't going to win you any interviews if your stats & EC's are ho-hum, but it will get you extra attention from adcoms and might be a factor in moving you from the "maybe" to the "yes" pile.

 

[GrantN]

the moment your born

 

[Longshanks]

The point when undergrad prestige matters is when you have your diploma plaque to hold close to you as you weep yourself to sleep at night with the debt you're in.

Oh, and it makes Mom and Dad feel proud at dinner parties.

 

[gravitywave]

very very few private colleges are worth the asking price.

 

[orthomyxo]

OP, did you ever think that the reason there are so many threads about this topic is that nobody can ever provide an accurate answer for it?

 

[ElChamaco]

The point when undergrad prestige matters is when you have your diploma plaque to hold close to you as you weep yourself to sleep at night with the debt you're in.

Oh, and it makes Mom and Dad feel proud at dinner parties.

I've always found it extraordinarily odd that people resort to these sort of arguments when discussing this admittedly over-discussed topic. The Ivies, and other wealthy private universities, put themselves well within reach of most of the students they accept.

In fact, in most cases an Ivy will be cheaper to attend than any other out-of-state institution. Ironically, in my case, my flagship state university would have been my most expensive option by far. Instead, I graduated with nearly no debt from a private university with generous financial aid. I don't think that's a particularly rare experience for low-income applicant. Large state universities generally do not have money to give out to poor students especially when they can count on receiving full tuition from the middle class students who are trapped into attending because they aren't poor enough to qualify for private school financial aid.

If you get into a school like Harvard, the university, with few exceptions, will make it affordable for you to attend. Now if we are talking about paying higher tuition to attend some random, moderately more "prestigious", private school when you could go to your flagship on the cheap, then that is a different story.

 

[mmmcdowe]

It also doesn't matter how unprestigious an undergrad is if you were miserable there and end up a bazillion dollars in debt prior to medical school.

Get your facts straight. GW is the most expensive school in the country and is not nearly the most prestigious school. Harvard, Princeton, and Yale are the most prestigious yet throw money at you even though everyone already wants to go there.

I know plenty more people who were unchallenged and miserable at a public undergrad than the other way around.

I agree and never said anything to imply that prestigious universities were a bad choice. They are just not always the best choice for all people who can get into them and prestige isn't the reason to go to them. Chill. I go to one.

 

[bookfreak89]

Misconception #1: Everyone who goes to a top school pays full price.

More to come as/if the thread progresses.

 

[gravitywave]

I've always found it extraordinarily odd that people resort to these sort of arguments when discussing this admittedly over-discussed topic. The Ivies, and other wealthy private universities, put themselves well within reach of most of the students they accept.

In fact, in most cases an Ivy will be cheaper to attend than any other out-of-state institution. Ironically, in my case, my flagship state university would have been my most expensive option by far. Instead, I graduated with nearly no debt from a private university with generous financial aid. I don't think that's a particularly rare experience for low-income applicant. Large state universities generally do not have money to give out to poor students especially when they can count on receiving full tuition from the middle class students who are trapped into attending because they aren't poor enough to qualify for private school financial aid.

If you get into a school like Harvard, the university, with few exceptions, will make it affordable for you to attend. Now if we are talking about paying higher tuition to attend some random, moderately more "prestigious", private school when you could go to your flagship on the cheap, then that is a different story.

i do not believe your story is typical. the number of schools with FA policies like those of Harvard is vanishingly small. most college students come from solidly middle-class backgrounds, and can expect minimal need-based assistance. parents are often asked to cough up an additional $20k/yr to satisfy junior's flimsy ambitions, without which the school is for all practical purposes unaffordable.

even for the ones who are low-income, most private schools are not price-competitive with the public option. most aid at private schools is merit-based, with the notable exception of those few schools that offer need-blind admissions.

 

[ElChamaco]

i do not believe your story is typical. the number of schools with FA policies like those of Harvard is vanishingly small. most college students come from solidly middle-class backgrounds, and can expect minimal need-based assistance. parents are often asked to cough up an additional $20k/yr to satisfy junior's flimsy ambitions, without which the school is for all practical purposes unaffordable.

even for the ones who are low-income, most private schools are not price-competitive with the public option. most aid at private schools is merit-based, with the notable exception of those few schools that offer need-blind admissions.

That's why I said at the end of my post, "If you get into a school like Harvard." When I think of prestigious schools I think of a handful of schools, all of which have a similarly generous financial aid policy. Outside of these 10 or maybe 15 schools I don't really think anyone should be discussing prestige. I think with that qualification (which I made initially) my experience is probably not that atypical.

 

[shouldvestudied]

I got into GW and Princeton and wound up going to my state school because I got a full ride. I never regretted my decision... after going to 8 interviews and seing the tuition of medical schools I am so happy that I have 0 loans to pay back for undergraduate.

That's funny. I went to Princeton precisely because they gave me a full ride (graduated with 3k total in emergency loans taken out to cover a health emergency). Then again, my family was dirt poor. Need based financial aid is a beautiful thing.

 

[Longshanks]

I've always found it extraordinarily odd that people resort to these sort of arguments when discussing this admittedly over-discussed topic. The Ivies, and other wealthy private universities, put themselves well within reach of most of the students they accept.

In fact, in most cases an Ivy will be cheaper to attend than any other out-of-state institution. Ironically, in my case, my flagship state university would have been my most expensive option by far. Instead, I graduated with nearly no debt from a private university with generous financial aid. I don't think that's a particularly rare experience for low-income applicant. Large state universities generally do not have money to give out to poor students especially when they can count on receiving full tuition from the middle class students who are trapped into attending because they aren't poor enough to qualify for private school financial aid.

If you get into a school like Harvard, the university, with few exceptions, will make it affordable for you to attend. Now if we are talking about paying higher tuition to attend some random, moderately more "prestigious", private school when you could go to your flagship on the cheap, then that is a different story.

You make an accurate point about the Ivies (well at least Harvard and maybe UPenn). I was mainly referring to the BU's, NYUs, and GWU's of the world.

I went to a great public university and came out with no debt, so I'm happy. I knew I wouldn't have been able to do that had I gone to one of the privates I was accepted to. Especially since financial aid doesn't account for cost of living where your family is from, and there's no way my family could help me or support me at a private school.

 

[bookfreak89]

You make an accurate point about the Ivies (well at least Harvard and maybe UPenn). I was mainly referring to the BU's, NYUs, and GWU's of the world.

Most if not all the Ivies do this, I believe.

 

[indya]

When I think of prestigious schools I think of a handful of schools...
Outside of these 10 or maybe 15 schools I don't really think anyone should be discussing prestige.

and that was the answer to my initial question. from your answer I'll infer that, in your opinion, it is somewhere around top 10-15.

thank you for your answers, everyone.

 

[wanderer]

I think it's a sliding scale, but at the one school that I interviewed at where it seemed everyone (other than me) was from a top school, the other applicants were all from top 25 schools. For other schools there was a nice mix biased towards the top schools, which is what you'd expect given that the average applicant from a top school is more qualified academically than the average counterpart at a random state school.

 

[ElChamaco]

You make an accurate point about the Ivies (well at least Harvard and maybe UPenn). I was mainly referring to the BU's, NYUs, and GWU's of the world.

I went to a great public university and came out with no debt, so I'm happy. I knew I wouldn't have been able to do that had I gone to one of the privates I was accepted to. Especially since financial aid doesn't account for cost of living where your family is from, and there's no way my family could help me or support me at a private school.

Those are not particularly "prestigious" private universities. Going off US News (the most objective measure of "prestige" available to us) there are many public universities that are better regarded. I'm honestly surprised that people would pay 40k a year to go to one of those schools, especially over a public option. That, I think, is a bad decision, and I for one would not let my kids make it.

If I had the money to comfortably pay for my children to go one of the handful of "prestigious" schools, and they really wanted to attend, I would consider taking the financial hit. Having transferred from a mid-range private university to a top-ranked school, I appreciate the difference it made in my academic and personal experience and my future career prospects. Nevertheless, I of course realize that many people have great college experiences at nearly every school in the country!

 

[ElChamaco]

and that was the answer to my initial question. from your answer I'll infer that, in your opinion, it is somewhere around top 10-15.

thank you for your answers, everyone.

Yes. These are also the schools that will most likely pay your way, even if you are not dirt poor. If you are dirt poor, you can finally feel lucky for once in your life because there are many private schools that will offer you generous financial aid.

 

[Narmerguy]

OP, did you ever think that the reason there are so many threads about this topic is that nobody can ever provide an accurate answer for it?

This right here.

 

[AllDay24]

Those are not particularly "prestigious" private universities. Going off US News (the most objective measure of "prestige" available to us) there are many public universities that are better regarded. I'm honestly surprised that people would pay 40k a year to go to one of those schools, especially over a public option. That, I think, is a bad decision, and I for one would not let my kids make it.

If I had the money to comfortably pay for my children to go one of the handful of "prestigious" schools, and they really wanted to attend, I would consider taking the financial hit. Having transferred from a mid-range private university to a top-ranked school, I appreciate the difference it made in my academic and personal experience and my future career prospects. Nevertheless, I of course realize that many people have great college experiences at nearly every school in the country!

Agreed. I don't see why anyone from Maryland would choose UMD over GWU or BU over UMass. That's totally not worth it. I'd say one should go for either the state school of Ivy/sub-Ivy.

 

[phltz]

Unless you went to the Technical Institute of the Moon, you're screwed.

 

[slowbutsteady]

Everyone in these ubiquitous threads talks about "does prestige matter?"

"Prestige" in an of itself does not matter, but it is shorthand for lots of things that DO matter.

Why is Harvard prestigious? Because people (Aunt Tilly) are impressed you went there? NO!!!

Here is why:

1. It is very hard to get into and therefore the student body is intelligent, hardworking and accomplished. You will learn as much from your fellow students as from your classes.

2. It has been around for 400 years and is recognized as a place of high scholarship worldwide.

3. It attracts the greatest minds in most every field and one can learn from those people, and perhaps even help them with their research.

4. The are very well endowed and therefore the facilities and opportunities are unsurpassed at other institutions.

5. The breadth and depth of the curriculum provides a variety of opportunities to the students unavailable elsewhere. (e.g., Harvard teaches all, repeat all, languages. If you want to learn ancient gaelic, they will find you a teacher and you can study one-on-one.)

6. It is virtually impossible to graduate from Harvard without obtaining an impeccable education. (Even the best state school can not claim that.)


If I am a med school, I want those Harvard kids, assuming they have checked all the other boxes, and I'll even give a little on the GPA!!!

 

[ButImLETired]

Agreed. I don't see why anyone from Maryland would choose UMD over GWU or BU over UMass. That's totally not worth it. I'd say one should go for either the state school of Ivy/sub-Ivy.

That isn't always the case. I hate hate HATE this argument because no one ever acknowledges gray areas. I grew up in a state with a relatively good state school (not UC-good, but Maryland-good). And I chose an expensive private school in another state (not at Harvard level, but roughly in the top 30), and yes they gave me some scholarships but I'm currently 20k in debt and I wouldn't have changed it for the world.

I was surrounded by brilliant, self-motivated people who weren't there just to get a piece of paper to put on the wall so they could become *insert boring 9-5 job here*. That is the majority of the world, and that's fine, but it isn't me. This way, I was around people LIKE me. I loved that.

I never struggled to get to know a professor or get a research job or find on-campus work. With <5000 undergrads, I could be an actual person, not just a number. Had I gone to my state school, would I have been able to do that? Maybe. But it would have been up to me to seek it out, up to me to ask for help if necessary, up to me to find opportunities and look for like-minded people. I'm un-shy enough to pull it off, but many aren't. Those people suffer in a place like that.

I left home, I met people from other countries and who believed things entirely different from what I believe, I had to learn how to do laundry and cook for myself and how to spend a holiday or two without my family around. And yeah, some days it was scary to be somewhere completely new, but it was an absolutely precious experience. When applying to med schools, I looked at the whole US because I KNEW that I could go anywhere and thrive. I know a couple of people for whom coming to my school was the first time they'd ever left the area they grew up in, and it was a hard adjustment. You don't always have the luxury of picking where you're gonna go for med school, and having to deal with separation anxiety is yet more to worry about as a first year.

Also, yes, there are plenty of people from lesser-known colleges at even the fanciest of med schools. But statistically speaking, the top schools will still put out more students in those great med schools than the lesser-ranked ones. Once you begin interviewing, you realize how much that's true.

So, there are pros and cons to both options, but please, PLEASE don't make it seem so black and white. I made the right choice for me and I don't regret it, debt and all. I would have HATED my state school, it's in an ugly town with people I have nothing in common with, the campus is hideous, and the classes are huge. Had I lived in CA, would I have picked Stanford over Berkeley if I had had to pay sticker price for Stanford? Probably not. But in my situation, my choice made sense.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Once you begin interviewing, you realize how much that's true.

seriously. it's a little ridiculous.

 

[glasshalfMD]

Everyone in these ubiquitous threads talks about "does prestige matter?"

"Prestige" in an of itself does not matter, but it is shorthand for lots of things that DO matter.

Why is Harvard prestigious? Because people (Aunt Tilly) are impressed you went there? NO!!!

Here is why:

1. It is very hard to get into and therefore the student body is intelligent, hardworking and accomplished. You will learn as much from your fellow students as from your classes.

2. It has been around for 400 years and is recognized as a place of high scholarship worldwide.

3. It attracts the greatest minds in most every field and one can learn from those people, and perhaps even help them with their research.

4. The are very well endowed and therefore the facilities and opportunities are unsurpassed at other institutions.

5. The breadth and depth of the curriculum provides a variety of opportunities to the students unavailable elsewhere. (e.g., Harvard teaches all, repeat all, languages. If you want to learn ancient gaelic, they will find you a teacher and you can study one-on-one.)

6. It is virtually impossible to graduate from Harvard without obtaining an impeccable education. (Even the best state school can not claim that.)


If I am a med school, I want those Harvard kids, assuming they have checked all the other boxes, and I'll even give a little on the GPA!!!

This about sums it up, eh?

 

[IvyHopeful20]

It matters when p equals np.

 

[surftheiop]

For whoever it was asking about whether the "prestige" cut off is top 10/20/30 etc.

I think there is a pretty huge decline in "prestige" after about the top 15-20 US News schools. (Some would argue H/Y/P/stanford/MIT could also have their own "tier" at the top)

Choosing to go somewhere like Georgetown/ NYU / Boston College, because of "prestige" would seem to be a pretty poor choice if your paying sticker price. I think this is where people get this perception that its "expensive" to go to "prestigious" schools, in general its actually much cheaper to go to a top 15 than a 15-30, (unless one is your state school... you Californians have it nice).

 

[RogueUnicorn]

my school was 15-30 and i didn't graduate with a cent of debt. just sayin..

 

[surftheiop]

my school was 15-30 and i didn't graduate with a cent of debt. just sayin..

which goes along with my theory that you should not pay sticker price for a 15-30!

It seems there are 3 groups that go to 15-30 schools

1) People whose state school it is (lucky folks they are)

2) People who also got into top-15 schools, but got a great scholarship where they are.

3) People who couldn't get into a top-15 school and are paying full price.


Being in group three does not seem to be a good place to be, probably better to go to your states honor college for 1/3 price.

 

[Uncle Iroh]

I would say about ~20 "elite" private schools have a big enough name which might (I'll get to this later) actually impact the application process; since we're all naming names here, those are:

Amherst*
Caltech
Duke
MIT
Northwestern
Pomona*
Rice
Stanford
Swarthmore*
The Ivies
UChicago
Washington University in St. Louis
Williams*

*-small liberal arts schools that you may/may not have heard of. None-the-less, they have VERY good (some would argue THE best) reputations among ADCOMs.

It's no surprise that these schools also offer the most generous (i.e loans-free, needs based, no merit based) financial aid packages. you can go to any of these schools virtually for free IF you're a single child with a family income of $0-$60,000 or you have a sibling in college with a family income of $0-$100,000 etc etc (getting any financial aid cuts off at about a family income of $250,000). You won't be saving much of a dime if your family is upper-middle class or above (who, interestingly enough, are highly overrepresented at these schools anyways).

The BU's, NYU's, and USC's (any other acronym-ed- schools I'm forgetting?) of America do have a HUGE price tag but can offer cash to particularly bright high schoolers who have other options on their plate (several of my HS friends chose BU over Cornell and Brown because of $). The bottom line is that I would I agree with most people in this thread in that I would definitely choose the state school over private because of money. If I somehow do become a doctor and a parent, my kid will probably go to his respective state school because of $, (hopefully) do well, and be prepared for the real world.

In my humble opinion, name matters IF and only IF you (surprise, surprise) have a good GPA and MCAT scores. Why? because having a good GPA at the aforementioned schools shows that you were very competitive among an already distinguished group of individuals where 80%+ were in the top 10% of their high schools to begin with. This holds especially true if that "name" school is known for grade deflation. The MCATs are just a way of confirming that you're grades grounded in some scientific knowledge. Pure prestige doesn't actually mean much and while the "elites" are overrepresented in big-name medical schools, most pre-meds at the "elites" (after freshman year, generally) are well aware of how competitive medical school is and do have the standard "anywhere that takes me" notion. (in fact on one pre-med website for one the "elites" mentions that "the medical schools admissions process will be most XYZ school's students first taste of failure,"). Ultimately, name means very little; I personally think that pre-meds obsess over it because they are paranoid people.