At what point is the GPA high enough?

[gplex86]

How can 20-30 schools out of a 129 school pool be outliers?! If you remove those schools, you remove the most competitive people from the game... Also, your assumption says the top schools have a plain seperation from the ther 100?! Where is this data at? Even the top 20-30 show a downward trend in GPA/MCAT.

Dude, GPA matters. Why would you gamble on what GPA will or will not get you in?! OP should try to get the best grades she/he can no matter the situation. Last time I checked, how well you preform in undergrad is a pretty important criteria for admissions...

Also, Chem is a pre-req and is subject on the MCAT. Try to do well in it. It will haunt you later if you don't.

Edit: Do you consider the lowest statistics of the spectrum outliers, too? for example, Marshall University has one of the lowest mean GPAs out of all allo schools but primarily in state students get in, so for the national pool most people can't even consider it as an option. Would excluding the school raise the national mean GPA?!?!

Considering that most people only apply to 20-30 schools, you can EASILY build a list with GPA's around the 3.5 range.

Of course you improve your chances by having a high GPA. But anything near the average gives you a decent shot of getting in.

Have you even applied yet? Ever seen a med school? Have any doctors in the family?

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[gplex86]

Also, GPA isn't quite the impartial decider some people think it is. You can get a very nice GPA taking only the intro classes, part time, at the University of DUHHHHH.

How you get your GPA, at what institution, and the trend involved, really does matter. That's why it takes a COMPLETE APPLICATION to get in anywhere.

 

[flip26]

HA! I started off majoring in physics as a freshman. I was quickly disabused of that notion. It turns out that not only am I not good at physics or math, at least by my school's standards, but I also hate it. Probably a connection there. Anyway, going back to take it over again ten years later...yup, still despise e&m. Clearly this hatred will translate into dismal failure during med school.

OP, I think a balanced approach to life is great, for soooooooo many reasons. If you are doing special things with the time you are freeing up (ie. not just hanging out with friends), I wouldn't worry too much about a B here and there. The only caveat I'd throw in is to make sure that you're not avoiding it just because it's difficult for you, as opposed to not liking it. Swallowing some nasty classes will be a part of med school.

The OP expressed dislike for Chem. Physics, while it is a pre-req, and math (and whatever the hell e&m is) are not as central to the med school curric...

You make good points about "swallowing" nasty classes - this is more akin to my point to the OP. Buck up and work hard - if you make some Bs, so be it - but don't slack off.

 

[adamMD]

I'm a white guy who got in with a 3.4 cumulative gpa (strong upward trend). I did have to apply twice but ended up in a great med school.

As stated before, just try your best. Don't just accept a B in chemistry because you're not interested. Make it a goal to get an A. That way you can prove to yourself you can excel at material that doesn't really interest you. In medical school, there will be plenty of it.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Have any doctors in the family?

My pet dog in graduated 2007 from Stewie U. She is now in residency in Derm at MGH. I look to her, Daisy the golden retriever, for my guidance and aspirations. She's the only non-human to score above a 33 on the MCAT.

Alright, my point is this: It is not that easy to build a list of 20-30 schools with a 3.5 average. I will list the reasons why:

1. Many of the schools with around 3.5 averages are state schools that lean heavily on giving instate acceptances. The only way to bank on that is if you are instate at one of those schools. Does that mean you don't have a shot at them if you're out of state? Of course not. It just means your chances are lowered.
consider these two situations:
A. You have a 3.5 GPA with a 29 MCAT, CA resident.
B. You have a 3.5 with a 29 MCAT, WV resident.
Who have the better chance of acceptance? The WV student, by a mile. This is due to the fact that two schools instate fall around those means. The CA resident? Tough luck, pal.

2. At a 3.5 you are under the mean. Does that mean you won't get in? Of course not, plenty of people do. The point is if you can increase your odds, like the OP is in the position to do, why not do it?!!?

3. I'm not trying to look down on people, I'm just saying to try your hardest.
EC's come after GPA and MCAT! EC's are a sweetener, GPA and MCAT theoretically get you in the door so your EC's will be looked at. If the OP was done with school I'd say go ahead and apply, you have a great shot. The fact is, the OP could still improve...

Also, My father is a doctor and my mom is an RN. I work in a medical school lab. I have not applied. Why is that relevant to the topic?

 

[Lacheln]

The OP expressed dislike for Chem. Physics, while it is a pre-req, and math (and whatever the hell e&m is) are not as central to the med school curric...

E&M is electricity and magnetism. With multi-var calc thrown in, I just didn't f'ing get it. Algebraic version, fine, but still didn't enjoy it.

Anyway, a solid grounding in some topics in gen chem (ie. those used in biochem) are integral to med school, but depending on what she's talking about, maybe not so much. Would you agree? Electrochemistry, for example. Generally speaking, I found second semester gen chem to be mind numbing and seemingly inapplicable. Blech. I did get an A though. So, you are right, bucking up and working hard makes sense. I just wanted to encourage her to be a well-rounded person too.

 

[Lacheln]

I'm just saying to try your hardest.
EC's come after GPA and MCAT! EC's are a sweetener, GPA and MCAT theoretically get you in the door so your EC's will be looked at. If the OP was down with school I'd say go ahead and apply, you have a great shot. The fact is, the OP could still improve...

You have some good points here, but at the end of the day isn't life about who you are as a whole person? Who's to say that trading a few B's for A's and coming out not having had a chance to explore who you are or grow as a person is better, even as a med school applicant? At the number ***** schools, yes. At plenty of other schools, including top ones, no. Either way, I guess it's a choice to make.

 

[Lokhtar]

You have some good points here, but at the end of the day isn't life about who you are as a whole person? Who's to say that trading a few B's for A's and coming out not having had a chance to explore who you are or grow as a person is better, even as a med school applicant? At the number ***** schools, yes. At plenty of other schools, including top ones, no. Either way, I guess it's a choice to make.

That's a false dichotomy. You don't have to choose between the two, plenty of people do both.

 

[gplex86]

My pet dog in graduated 2007 from Stewie U. She is now in residency in Derm at MGH. I look to her, Daisy the golden retriever, for my guidance and aspirations. She's the only non-human to score above a 33 on the MCAT.

Alright, my point is this: It is not that easy to build a list of 20-30 schools with a 3.5 average. I will list the reasons why:

1. Many of the schools with around 3.5 averages are state schools that lean heavily on giving instate acceptances. The only way to bank on that is if you are instate at one of those schools. Does that mean you don't have a shot at them if you're out of state? Of course not. It just means your chances are lowered.
consider these two situations:
A. You have a 3.5 GPA with a 29 MCAT, CA resident.
B. You have a 3.5 with a 29 MCAT, WV resident.
Who have the better chance of acceptance? The WV student, by a mile. This is due to the fact that two schools instate fall around those means. The CA resident? Tough luck, pal.

2. At a 3.5 you are under the mean. Does that mean you won't get in? Of course not, plenty of people do. The point is if you can increase your odds, like the OP is in the position to do, why not do it?!!?

3. I'm not trying to look down on people, I'm just saying to try your hardest.
EC's come after GPA and MCAT! EC's are a sweetener, GPA and MCAT theoretically get you in the door so your EC's will be looked at. If the OP was done with school I'd say go ahead and apply, you have a great shot. The fact is, the OP could still improve...

Also, My father is a doctor and my mom is an RN. I work in a medical school lab. I have not applied. Why is that relevant to the topic?

You know, I actually agree with you a lot on this. He should improve his chances if he can. I just was picking up a tone. Sorry.

 

[Lacheln]

That's a false dichotomy. You don't have to choose between the two, plenty of people do both.

Eh, you can't be perfect in everything. Or, at least most people can't. Some people achieve more than others, true, but all you can do is prioritize and do your best accordingly. It's not that I disagree in principle, it just seems like the OP was prioritizing, which is ok.

 

[flip26]

Eh, you can't be perfect in everything. Or, at least most people can't. Some people achieve more than others, true, but all you can do is prioritize and do your best accordingly. It's not that I disagree in principle, it just seems like the OP was prioritizing, which is ok.

Making great grades, having a great time, and getting all the ECs one needs for a solid med school app are not mutually exclusive things.

It is possible to do all of them. No need to "settle" or make a trade off between an A in a pre-req and having a good time and settling for a B.

 

[Lokhtar]

Eh, you can't be perfect in everything.

We're not talking about perfection here though.

 

[Lacheln]

Making great grades, having a great time, and getting all the ECs one needs for a solid med school app are not mutually exclusive things.

It is possible to do all of them. No need to "settle" or make a trade off between an A in a pre-req and having a good time and settling for a B.

We're not talking about perfection here though.

Come on guys, suggesting that the occasional B isn't ok IS talking about perfection. In the end I think we all agree that people should do their best, whatever that means for them in terms of capabilities and interests. If a person wants to go to an extremely competitive med school then that's a priority requiring certain sacrifices, and if they want to experience a less stressful or more varied life in undergrad that's a priority requiring different sacrifices. Honestly, at my school getting a 4.0 was a huge sacrifice - a point my advisors made since I refused to drop my sport even though I was also working to support myself and volunteering. Maybe it's that I suck (not that I think so), but I was trading some grades for quality of life, as I saw it, and I don't regret it. I believe they're both valid approaches, a viewpoint which doesn't seem to be popular around SDN.

 

[flip26]

Come on guys, suggesting that the occasional B isn't ok IS talking about perfection. In the end I think we all agree that people should do their best, whatever that means for them in terms of capabilities and interests. If a person wants to go to an extremely competitive med school then that's a priority requiring certain sacrifices, and if they want to experience a less stressful or more varied life in undergrad that's a priority requiring different sacrifices. Honestly, at my school getting a 4.0 was a huge sacrifice - a point my advisors made since I refused to drop my sport even though I was also working to support myself and volunteering. Maybe it's that I suck (not that I think so), but I was trading some grades for quality of life, as I saw it, and I don't regret it. I believe they're both valid approaches, a viewpoint which doesn't seem to be popular around SDN.

Making even just a few Bs in the pre-reqs can really lower your BCPM (as well as your cum GPA, but the biggest impact will be on BCPM). And what if that slam dunk B turns out to be a B- or a C?

There are simply no guarantees in med school admissions - one must assume that every quality point matters - leaving anything on the table is nuts.

A 4.0 is no guarantee, but nobody is suggesting that a 4.0 is necessary. But for anybody to consciously make trade offs like the OP asked about seems pretty foolish to me.

 

[Lacheln]

But for anybody to consciously make trade offs like the OP asked about seems pretty foolish to me.

Well, I guess that's where we have to agree to disagree. Interesting discussion though.

 

[flip26]

Well, I guess that's where we have to agree to disagree. Interesting discussion though.

Looking at your MDApps, your UG GPA was fairly low. So did you make the same kind of "lifestyle trade offs" the OP is describing when it came to your grades? Don't you think that your GPA has put you in a bit of a hole for med school admissions? Was it really worth it?

Good luck. BTW nice job on the post bacc, but even with that, it looks like a pretty deep hole RE GPA...

 

[flip26]

Are we talking about cum GPA's here, or BCPM?

Also, do the types of courses you did poorly in get considered when presented with a low gpa? I failed calc 2 and retook it for a C+, so according to AMCAS I have something like 8 credits of a 1.25 floating around in my BCPM/cumulative weighing everything down, but I'm not sure if med schools will rail me for doing poorly in a math course such as that.

Both, really. But grades in the BCPM subset carry greater weight in terms of moving it up and down...a low BCPM is pretty undesirable. But it is easier to boost a lower BCPM with additional science classes, assuming one makes As...cum GPAs, once they go south, are really hard to bring back up.

 

[rowerlauren]

But it is easier to boost a lower BCPM with additional science classes, assuming one makes As...cum GPAs, once they go south, are really hard to bring back up.

Umm actually it's about as difficult to change my BCPM as my cumGPA because more than half of my cumGPA fall into the BCPM category. Which is also nice because a B in P Chem doesn't hurt me as much.

 

[flip26]

Umm actually it's about as difficult to change my BCPM as my cumGPA because more than half of my cumGPA fall into the BCPM category. Which is also nice because a B in P Chem doesn't hurt me as much.

If you have a total of 120 UG credits, and half of them (60) are in BCPM, and say both are the same (say 3.5 or whatever), an A in the next class you take, if it is a BCPM class, with have double the impact on BCPM as it will on your cum GPA...if for example it raises your cum GPA 0.05, it will raise your BCPM 0.1...

 

[WinterLights]

Anything below a 3.7 would make me nervous, assuming that the rest of my application was average. This especially goes for California applicants.

 

[rowerlauren]

If you have a total of 120 UG credits, and half of them (60) are in BCPM, and say both are the same (say 3.5 or whatever), an A in the next class you take, if it is a BCPM class, with have double the impact on BCPM as it will on your cum GPA...if for example it raises your cum GPA 0.05, it will raise your BCPM 0.1...

I know that... it's simple math. Just saying that the amount of fluctuation in your BCPM completely depends on the amount of credits of these you have taken. I was using myself as a reference for mostly science classes, while someone who has not taken science classes over the pre-reqs might be subject to greater fluctuations.

 

[tiedyeddog]

Anything below a 3.7 would make me nervous, assuming that the rest of my application was average. This especially goes for California applicants.

Yeah, Cali people get it hard. I'd say a 3.5 gives you decent odds (with everything else being average) unless you are a resident of Cali. I'm glad that I'm not a resident of Cali.

 

[Lokhtar]

Yeah, Cali people get it hard. I'd say a 3.5 gives you decent odds (with everything else being average) unless you are a resident of Cali. I'm glad that I'm not a resident of Cali.

Well any state that doesn't have a IS school would be in the same boat.

 

[supertrooper66]

Not a good reason.

Consider other fields than medicine. Your current grades are not very competitive for med school, and your disdain for the sciences is not a good sign of commitment to the academic rigors ahead...

this guy is an idiot. not liking chemistry doesn't mean you don't care for the sciences. if you don't like biology, then you should look elsewhere. once you're a doctor, chemistry is barely going to do anything for you.

every applicant ideally wants at least a 3.7 - the national average for acceptance. you obviously should shoot for the highest grades as possible, though. i'm pretty sure someone with a 3.7 + tons of experience will get in over the one with 3.8 and little experience.

you definitely shouldn't be complacent with a 3.5-something

 

[Lacheln]

Looking at your MDApps, your UG GPA was fairly low. So did you make the same kind of "lifestyle trade offs" the OP is describing when it came to your grades? Don't you think that your GPA has put you in a bit of a hole for med school admissions? Was it really worth it?

Good luck. BTW nice job on the post bacc, but even with that, it looks like a pretty deep hole RE GPA...

Yes and no. I did my best, and yes, I'm ok with the choices I made, they were right for me at the time. I was who I was then, I don't regret it. I learned a lot by flailing around and trying different things. In the end I'm happy with who I am and what I've accomplished, while also looking forward to what may come next. I went to one of the toughest schools in the country at a young age, came from a very disadvantaged background, and I have a lot of people strongly supporting me. Do I think my GPA is a hurdle? Yes. Do I think I can get over it? Yes. Do I think everyone can? No, it all depends on how you got there.

I think one of the reasons why I'm so opinionated on this particular topic is that there is no way to truly evaluate a candidate from their numbers, or even their mdapp really, but SDNers try all the time anyway. Over and over again people say the process is seemingly random, but at the same time are overwhelmingly negative about apps with lower than average stats. I think realism is one thing, but most of the anecdotal evidence here is skewed towards the negative. The process is stressful enough without that, and I feel like the best advice about a person's chances comes from people who both know you really well and know the process really well. If you don't have a support system like that then it's possible you need to work on building relationships (but of course every situation is different).

I know a lot of the push towards assuming every quality point matters is a desire for certainty, and I can relate to that. But as you said, there are no guarantees, and once someone accepts that, life gets a lot less stressful. Making conscious choices, like choosing to keep some ECs at the expense of grades while knowing it may lower your chances at top schools (although it may not, depending on you and the EC), is OK. Blindly stumbling along is obviously less optimal, but sometimes that's what you have to do too. Given that I know that I'm an outlier I tend to skew towards the positive, short of blowing sunshine up anyone's...

I don't see an mdapps for you - do you feel like a strong candidate? Who do you listen to about your own chances?

Ok, and now that I've been all serious and stuff:

"Incompetence: When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do."

 

[flip26]

Yes and no. I did my best, and yes, I'm ok with the choices I made, they were right for me at the time. I was who I was then, I don't regret it. I learned a lot by flailing around and trying different things. In the end I'm happy with who I am and what I've accomplished, while also looking forward to what may come next. I went to one of the toughest schools in the country at a young age, came from a very disadvantaged background, and I have a lot of people strongly supporting me. Do I think my GPA is a hurdle? Yes. Do I think I can get over it? Yes. Do I think everyone can? No, it all depends on how you got there.

I think one of the reasons why I'm so opinionated on this particular topic is that there is no way to truly evaluate a candidate from their numbers, or even their mdapp really, but SDNers try all the time anyway. Over and over again people say the process is seemingly random, but at the same time are overwhelmingly negative about apps with lower than average stats. I think realism is one thing, but most of the anecdotal evidence here is skewed towards the negative. The process is stressful enough without that, and I feel like the best advice about a person's chances comes from people who both know you really well and know the process really well. If you don't have a support system like that then it's possible you need to work on building relationships (but of course every situation is different).

I know a lot of the push towards assuming every quality point matters is a desire for certainty, and I can relate to that. But as you said, there are no guarantees, and once someone accepts that, life gets a lot less stressful. Making conscious choices, like choosing to keep some ECs at the expense of grades while knowing it may lower your chances at top schools (although it may not, depending on you and the EC), is OK. Blindly stumbling along is obviously less optimal, but sometimes that's what you have to do too. Given that I know that I'm an outlier I tend to skew towards the positive, short of blowing sunshine up anyone's...

I don't see an mdapps for you - do you feel like a strong candidate? Who do you listen to about your own chances?

Ok, and now that I've been all serious and stuff:

"Incompetence: When you earnestly believe you can compensate for a lack of skill by doubling your efforts, there's no end to what you can't do."

Ehh, no MDApps for me...I am not into the facebook/myspace/mdapps kind of "hey look at me" thing.

I feel very good about my grades, and I will start prepping for the MCAT soon (not applying until next cycle). I am very confident about the quality of the LORs I will be getting. I feel very good about my ECs, and am confident about writing a compelling PS and essays.

But having said all of that, I am applying to a ton of schools, just like everybody else - this process is impossible to predict...but I don't think I sacrificed one bit of happiness or missed out on any experience or activity in my pursuit of the best possible grades I could make in every single class I took.

 

[flip26]

this guy is an idiot. not liking chemistry doesn't mean you don't care for the sciences. if you don't like biology, then you should look elsewhere. once you're a doctor, chemistry is barely going to do anything for you.

every applicant ideally wants at least a 3.7 - the national average for acceptance. you obviously should shoot for the highest grades as possible, though. i'm pretty sure someone with a 3.7 + tons of experience will get in over the one with 3.8 and little experience.

you definitely shouldn't be complacent with a 3.5-something

So I am an idiot?

Can't you make your point without being so abusive?

I am out of here. Good luck everybody.

 

[Depakote]

 

[foster033]

so again the point with respect to the OP, a pre-med should not be settling for anything below an A or A- in any pre-req IF by working harder he can earn the higher grade.

But why not... people, especially pre-meds, take college waaaayyy too seriously. It's one class, it's not the end of the world. Who cares if you get an A or a B. Grades are important, but there not everything.

I have a hard time believing all these people who say they always put forth maximum effort in everything they do...that is just not human nature. You should be looking for ways to just get by in things that aren't as important to you so you can focus your attention on what really matters. Why waste time and energy doing stuff you really don't care about to get the best grade, when you could just put forth minimum effort and still get by?

If you give a 110% all the time in everything you do you're going to burn out pretty fast. Not to mention people around you are going to realize this and take advantage of you. Just wait till you have a career and then see if you still believe in all this idealistic crap.

 

[Lacheln]

Ehh, no MDApps for me...I am not into the facebook/myspace/mdapps kind of "hey look at me" thing.

You make it sound like everyone does it for some sort of validation, which I'm sure is sometimes the case, but there are plenty of us who are participating in order to help others get a more balanced picture of where they fit in the overall picture.

...but I don't think I sacrificed one bit of happiness or missed out on any experience or activity in my pursuit of the best possible grades I could make in every single class I took.

I am genuinely glad for you, just try to understand that not everyone has to feel that way.

 

[flip26]

You make it sound like everyone does it for some sort of validation, which I'm sure is sometimes the case, but there are plenty of us who are participating in order to help others get a more balanced picture of where they fit in the overall picture.

An applicant can get far more reliable information by reading the MSAR and by checking with the pre-med office at their UG which usually keeps track of where their students have applied and been accepted in the past.

I don't find MDApps profiles useful for much more than entertainment value...the self selection sample bias inherent in MDApps makes it pretty worthless for someone to extrapolate their chances...not too mention that people lie and embellish, too...

 

[Lokhtar]

Personally, without this site, I would have been completely lost. MSAR is nice, but its nothing like this site.

 

[flaahless]

Haha yeah, but school "averages" can be weirdly misleading, I guess I"m just more paranoid that most. I know a lot of people who had numbers that met and exceeded schools' average numbers, that didn't get interviews, which is why I would say a 3.6 is where I'd feel safe, because it would be put me a little above average at some schools, just in case some other parts of my app aren't stellar. Personally, I'd feel comfortably confident of my chances with a 3.6 GPA, it might just be that psychological difference between the 3.6 and 3.5 talking.

Guess it depends how much of a risk taker you wanna be.

I doubt that higher numbers wouldn't have improved their application. If they had the numbers and didn't get accepted, I'm pretty sure there was something else about the application that was responsible for their lack of success. Higher numbers can't help that.

 

[flaahless]

How can 20-30 schools out of a 129 school pool be outliers?! If you remove those schools, you remove the most competitive people from the game... Also, your assumption says the top schools have a plain seperation from the ther 100?! Where is this data at? Even the top 20-30 show a downward trend in GPA/MCAT.

Dude, GPA matters. Why would you gamble on what GPA will or will not get you in?! OP should try to get the best grades she/he can no matter the situation. Last time I checked, how well you preform in undergrad is a pretty important criteria for admissions...

Also, Chem is a pre-req and is subject on the MCAT. Try to do well in it. It will haunt you later if you don't.

Edit: Do you consider the lowest statistics of the spectrum outliers, too? for example, Marshall University has one of the lowest mean GPAs out of all allo schools but primarily in state students get in, so for the national pool most people can't even consider it as an option. Would excluding the school raise the national mean GPA?!?!

I disagree, I love the OPs approach to the application cycle. High stats are cool and all, but too many people here have the idea that GPA+MCAT=acceptance. And the higher the better, which is WRONG! Admissions is MUCH more than numbers. Once you're above the cutoffs, it's all about who you are and what you bring to the school and the profession.

OP, try and maintain a 3.6, and then go do something else with your life. Talk to your professors, deans, hot chicks etc. Be social, be friendly, amiable, outgoing. Work on the aspects of the application that will help distinguish you from the rest of the herd that is clamoring to get 4.0s. Good luck.

 

[Blade28]

Once you're above the cutoffs, it's all about who you are and what you bring to the school and the profession.

Very true, to a large extent.

 

[paranoid_eyes]

if you want to maximize your chances at harvard, hopkins, penn, UC's, etc. i think you should aim for a 4.0 because the applicant pool at these places is waaaay too competitive for any slack

for med schools in general, id say 3.6 is good enough to get you in somewhere