Attn: Med Students

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whoisthedrizzle

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I'd like to post this in Allo, but they'll probably move it anyway:

Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

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Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

Not a chance.
 
I'd like to post this in Allo, but they'll probably move it anyway:

Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

Sure. You can cram, depending on the school and the program. I've crammed for some of my tests. But its a really bad idea because you actually need to know the material you learn in med school. Both for the USMLE and for rotations.

The other thing to consider is how your school grades and does class rank. Here its H/P/F but few people get H so I don't really worry about it. So I can cram for my 70 and be content in some classes (MBC, Biochem (ick!), genetics), where other classes that most people have no background in and which are very conceptual it would be very hard to cram in (immuno, anatomy, histo, physio).

I have a feeling once I get into 2nd year it will stop being possible to cram for anything simply because the volume increases even more. Which is even another reason that you should start getting ready to study constantly more.

So yeah, I wouldn't go into med school planning to do nothing until test time and then cramming. Its not a good plan. Yes, cramming works in a pinch if you got behind or were spending all your time on other subjects. But to plan on it is asking for failure.
 
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You can but why would you. Some stuff like Anatomy you cant relly cram for that much because you really have to sit down and learn it, not memorize it. Its not something that can be memorized and then spit out in one night. its something where you sit and discuss, draw out, review over and over until you know the insertions, paths, innervations, etc.. That said, classes like cell bio, I was able to cram for because I had an extensive background in it culminating with a Masters degree that included medical school components of molecular and cellular biology. Other classes which are rote memorization could be crammed for, but is essentially not a wise practice at all.
 
I'd like to post this in Allo, but they'll probably move it anyway:

Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

Cramming is a bad idea. People have difficulty with med school even without cramming.
 
I did it during my first year and part way into my second. I had some friends who did as well.

It is not ideal and you have to be very good at it to succeed. Looking back I would not do it again.
 
I'd like to post this in Allo, but they'll probably move it anyway:

Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

That would be great if you didn't also get new material during the last two weeks of the block.
 
How is 10-hour studying days for 2 weeks "cramming?" It definitely depends on the curriculum at your school, but at my school we have tests every 2 weeks so of course that wouldn't be cramming. I have a friend who "crams" and still does well, but she's very smart and not everyone can get away with it (read: me). I would wait and see what your med school is like and how YOU are in med school before getting worried about this.
 
How is 10-hour studying days for 2 weeks "cramming?" It definitely depends on the curriculum at your school, but at my school we have tests every 2 weeks so of course that wouldn't be cramming. I have a friend who "crams" and still does well, but she's very smart and not everyone can get away with it (read: me). I would wait and see what your med school is like and how YOU are in med school before getting worried about this.

That exactly what I was thinking. When I cram it's studying for 3-4 days ahead of the test and I don't do 10-hour days, especially not for two weeks straight.
 
I'd like to post this in Allo, but they'll probably move it anyway:

Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

You can't realistically cram for med school. There are plenty of folks retaking courses or years because they didn't spend the time they needed. However 10 hours a day for two weeks isn't exactly my definition of cramming, considering lots of med schools have tests about monthly. Best to plan to spend some time each day studying and keeping up, and then to step it significantly up at the end. Never try to go a couple of weeks without doing anything because honestly, if you fall behind more than a couple of days in med school you often never catch up.
 
That exactly what I was thinking. When I cram it's studying for 3-4 days ahead of the test and I don't do 10-hour days, especially not for two weeks straight.

I think he's talking for block exam schools. If you have 5 subject tests in one week then one week of 10-hrs/day would be cramming.
 
Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time.

Medical school is not like undergrad; wipe that from your mind. An amazing volume of information forced into a rediculously short period of time tends to be the trend in medical school. You need to stay on top of things, or you will more readily sink. It is unrealistic to do nothing until exam time. This is an excellent way to fail. Consistant effort goes a long way in medical school.

Seriously, even when I am all caught up with the lectures, etc., I don't feel like I have a complete grasp of everything, nor do I feel solid about my work. Even studying everyday, I can't possibly go over every minute detail. Imagine what it would be like to be way behind... Yeah. Unless you are very brilliant, it's going to hurt. And even if your performance doesn't get compromised, you'll at least have a crazy panic attack trying to cram all the gazillion bits of information and correlating them together before exam time.

My advice: stay on top of things; don't fall behind.
 
hmm, I think sometimes med students exaggerate to pre-meds. Med school is manageable. No, not everyone passes every class, but the vast majority do. Study hard, take advantage of the resources around you, and if you fall behind you'll just have to work harder to catch up...it's not the end of the world. Just be advised it's definitely harder to catch up in med school, but you certainly don't have to kill yourself to survive it. Also, yes there is a ton of information and there are always questions that test minutiae on exams...but by in large if you study efficiently and know how things are interconnected without knowing every single seemingly meaningless piece of info, you'll most likely at least pass.
 
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Its manageable because, unlike in college, you don't have to worry about working a few jobs, or doing extracurriculars, etc.. Your only job is to mainly study. It gets unmanageable when you start slacking and just dont keep up. You dont have to study every available resource out there every day, just as long as u have a decent understanding of it, you won't need to study an obscene amount of hours a day. Efficiency and disciplining your time is key. Most medical students who keep up by being efficient with their time will also tend to find that they have free time to go to the gym, go to a movie, and do some fun stuff once in a while.
 
Yes. And what you are describing is not cramming. Studying for 10 hours a day for two weeks is plenty. One week would be pushing it though.
 
hmm, I think sometimes med students exaggerate to pre-meds. Med school is manageable. No, not everyone passes every class, but the vast majority do.

Right, I never said it was unmanageable, but challenging. I don't know about you, but I think medical school is pretty darn hard. I tried to express that medical school is world's apart from undergrad and that if an individual did no work until close to exam time, then that individual would be inviting trouble, in my experience. I think that there is considerably less leeway for this kind of stuff in medical school. At worst, you are setting yourself up for hard times and maybe even failure. I think medical school is tough enough without the additional stress that getting behind presents. Naturally, it is still possible to get by with a habit of falling behind, but in general I have little interest in just getting by. I really want to learn as much as I can and falling far behind certainly makes it hard to do that. Maybe I'm weird to think this way. I don't know. I don't like punking stuff, if I can help it.

Anyway, not all medical schools have a pass/fail grading system and have the same type of curriculum. For instance, my school uses the +/- letter grade system and has a system-based curriculum. We divide the year by system units, each of which will approach that system from all the basic science angles as well as clinically. We have tests basically every two weeks and at the end of the unit, there can be a lot of assessments packed into a short space (i.e., final, practicals), which makes it hard to study for them, if you haven't kept up. The pace is pretty fast and it's not unusual to have many subjects for an exam. I will say that I think it's pretty tough to get above the average if you let yourself habitually fall behind in this type of environment. There were several times when I nearly failed stuff due to falling behind. There can be a pretty narrow margin. Anyway, I recommend setting sights higher than avoiding failure.

Study hard, take advantage of the resources around you, and if you fall behind you'll just have to work harder to catch up...it's not the end of the world. Just be advised it's definitely harder to catch up in med school, but you certainly don't have to kill yourself to survive it.

Right. I pretty much agree. As I hinted above, I've definitely fallen behind. It was very stressful and it took considerable effort to fix. And it is no exaggeration that I never feel prepared any more. That's just how it goes.

Also, yes there is a ton of information and there are always questions that test minutiae on exams...but by in large if you study efficiently and know how things are interconnected without knowing every single seemingly meaningless piece of info, you'll most likely at least pass

Of course, but it is more difficult to do these things when you wait until the last moments to study. Success in medical school, at least in my experience, is about consistant work.
 
hmm, I think sometimes med students exaggerate to pre-meds. Med school is manageable. No, not everyone passes every class, but the vast majority do.

Yes and no. There is perhaps some exaggeration out there, but a lot of it is simply reflective of experiences of those who may not be the average. Med school is a very personal endeavor. For some it will be harder than others. There are some that need to log enormous numbers of hours to pass, while others can have more semblance of a life, or may log enormous hours to get that cushy derm residency. Yet the catch is that all of these groups had fairly similar matriculation stats, so you really won't know which group you will be in until you get there. The dude who got A's in college with no effort may continue to do so in med school, or more often may find his college ways simply no longer work and that he is ill prepared for the adjustment he needs to make.

There were posts a while back that at certain schools as many as 10% of students failed courses and were forced to retake tests, courses and in some cases years. (A much higher percentage than this will have failed one test but not the course). By contrast there is at least one school I know of where supposedly no one has ever failed. So experiences will range depending on what school you attend. And so sure, while the vast majority of people will pass, it's not really a rarity in med school that someone won't, and even less rare that they will go through med school feeling like the risk of failure is breathing down their necks. Most of us have seen classmates disappear from our class ranks only to reappear in the class behind. It happens more than you think (or perhaps see at your school). And certainly not putting in the time you need daily, and not keeping up with the workload, would play a role in this.
 
Right, I never said it was unmanageable, but challenging. I don't know about you, but I think medical school is pretty darn hard.
Oh, believe me, I definitely agree with you. And I wasn't specifically referring to you in my post, it's just something I've seen a lot on here and I didn't want the pre-meds reading this thread to think that studying 10 hours a day for two weeks is "cramming." Though I admit, I'm not at a school with block exams so I don't exactly know what that's like.

As L2D said, there are definitely differences between med schools and, of course, how you are as an individual. But I just didn't want every pre-med on here to think they're throwing their life away when they get to med school. I remember the summer before I started my first year, I developed an anxiety problem because I was so scared of med school (partly because of the things I read on here). So that's why I wanted to make that point. Though it was helpful in a way to go into it expecting the worst, I suppose.

Now rotations...those are another beast entirely :)
 
Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.

I found it hard to do this, because in a school with block scheduling, the material in week 3 is based on the material you learned in week 2. So if you didn't understand week 2's material, then you were screwed for weeks 3 and 4. I needed to go over that day's material to really understand it well, before I could even think about studying the next day's material.
 
I crammed first year. As a result I passed a few classes I could have easily done better in had I put in the time (my school has a five letter grading scale). I wised up for second year though, and studied everyday. As a result, I was less stressed and I did much better.

I don't recommend cramming unless you like being mediocre and stressed out.
 
I'd like to post this in Allo, but they'll probably move it anyway:

Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.


Is your school pass/fail? Are you a good test-taker? Are you smart? If all three are true, then yes, you can cram for a week (though I wouldn't call 7 days of studying 'cramming') and still pass. However, when you consider that medicine is now your life-long career, the thought that you should do as little as possible to graduate medical school seems silly. Your investment now will pay off later (in general, though I know some of the ridiculous trivia they ask us to memorize really is useless :)
 
One issue that hasn't come up is the responsibility we all have as future physicians to actually LEARN this material not for the sake of performing on a few tests, but so that we can actually apply the material eventually and care for patients.

Also, many schools grade on a curve of some form or another - and you are now being curved with the top students from all over. Trust me, they will be studying hard, and if you just try to cram, you will be on the left of that bell curve.
 
One issue that hasn't come up is the responsibility we all have as future physicians to actually LEARN this material not for the sake of performing on a few tests, but so that we can actually apply the material eventually and care for patients.
The retention of info during the basic science courses is minimal and doesn't really factor into patient care (how beneficial is it to patients that we memorize and remember the steps of the Krebs cycle?). During the clinical year is when you start to apply and learn/remember things that are actually applicable.

Again, I'm not saying "cramming is a great idea" but it's not going to make someone a worse doctor or know less in the future if cramming is what works for them. Step 1 might be a different story, however.
 
I think Flopo probably means learning for the practice of preparing yourself in the future to continue the same habits and practices you did in medical school. We all can dispute the relevance of the material we learn in the preclinical setting when it comes to actually becoming physicians. Seems to me that the students who are most successful in med classes are the ones who didnt cram even in undergrad and instead studied efficiently every day and when accepted to medical school, simply carried those study habits right over to a new setting (and of course there are always exceptions). Whatever the case may be, however, one thing is clear- one of the most valuable things that most med students will learn coming out of medical school (and Im still trying to right now) is methodology of learning how to learn. Most professors will tell you to not cram because the best and tried way of "learning how to learn" is studying consistently and will probably pay off if you make a habit of this since it will be a safety net when we are thrown out in teh world to take care of patients. Most of the material we learn in our lifetimes and in medical school will probably be unused and forgotten. However, the process of learning it and doing well as a result of learning how to learn it is probably something that will carry on for a very long time.
 
Again, I'm not saying "cramming is a great idea" but it's not going to make someone a worse doctor or know less in the future if cramming is what works for them. Step 1 might be a different story, however.

The point I tried to make was that if a pre-medical applicant was searching for "short-cuts" and ways to not work hard during medical school, they should re-evaluate their motivations.
 
What you described is not cramming! I listen to all lectures (at 2X) for the first time the night before an exam. Now that's cramming, but it's worked for me so far.


I'd like to post this in Allo, but they'll probably move it anyway:

Can med students successfully cram for pre-clinical exams? I don't mean day before the exam type of stuff, but like 10 hour studying days for a week or two before the block ends.

Ideally, I'd like to do nothing schoolwise but take notes in lecture until it comes to exam time. This may not be possible due to PBL, so I'd like to know what you guys think about this.
 
If you have to cram to survive, then that is what you do, and there is no shame in it. If you have a genetics exam and you know the questions will be ridiculous detail-oriented crap rather than conceptual understanding, then you write your flash cards, make your study sheets, and memorize details like hell. Better to pass this way than to fail, because you were so busy working on conceptual understanding and the recommended readings that you didn't have time to memorize those details. (Note that cramming an entire quarter-length course will actually take most of 3 12-hour days or more.)

It's nice to live with the illusion that if you studied differently, you might actually remember something by the end of fourth year, but really that's mostly an illusion. Your retention, as mentioned above, will be near-zero because you won't have used much of this stuff, and it truly is Use or Lose.

Unfortunately, there IS useful conceptual stuff that you will wish you had learned properly during the first 2 years. Unfortunately, you will not know what that stuff is until fourth year. Then you will be sorry. Like me. You will only take solace in the idea that you would probably have forgotten most of it anyway.
 
Sure, it's possible, but I agree that it's better not to plan on it. I feel a lot better and less stressed if I'm staying on top of the material. That being said, in anatomy where our tests are every three weeks or so, I did fall pretty far behind (like basically doing almost nothing, eventually not even reading anything) and then had to learn stuff less than a week before the tests. But that wasn't something I chose to do or would really recommend. On the other hand, in our biochem class I think it was perfectly feasible to pass just by going to lecture and listening, if you had a good previous background in it.
 
I don't know why I keep hearing this...but everyone I talk to at my school that went to medicine says they are having an easier time in medical school than they did in their undergrads...
 
Its true in the sense that all the classes you take should be relevant to your interests. Also as I said above, no jobs to work, no extracurriculars to do- just study.
 
hmm, I think sometimes med students exaggerate to pre-meds. Med school is manageable.
No and yes. ;) I don't think I exaggerate what goes on, because I've had some very very very difficult stretches in med school, much more so in second year than first. It's not that I don't have enough time to study as much as I'd like, it's that I don't have enough mental stamina to study enough to learn it all. It is manageable, but not for everyone. Eleven people left our first year class - some to repeat it, and some permanently.
 
I don't know why I keep hearing this...but everyone I talk to at my school that went to medicine says they are having an easier time in medical school than they did in their undergrads...
Undergrad was significantly easier. At times it was more time-consuming because I had to work a 24-hour shift as an EMT, write three lab reports, do a first draft of a paper on Petrarch, study for an exam, and check on my research, but it was not harder than med school.

One issue that hasn't come up is the responsibility we all have as future physicians to actually LEARN this material not for the sake of performing on a few tests, but so that we can actually apply the material eventually and care for patients.
At times I feel guilty for not knowing the material better, but I know that I'm honestly giving it my best effort, so I can't expect any more than that from myself. Still, a lot of my exams boil down to "Can I recognize the right answer from a list of five options?" rather than "Do I know the correct answer?"
 
Oh cramming, my best friend and worst enemy. How I both love and loath you.
 
flopotomist said:
One issue that hasn't come up is the responsibility we all have as future physicians to actually LEARN this material not for the sake of performing on a few tests, but so that we can actually apply the material eventually and care for patients.
At times I feel guilty for not knowing the material better, but I know that I'm honestly giving it my best effort, so I can't expect any more than that from myself. Still, a lot of my exams boil down to "Can I recognize the right answer from a list of five options?" rather than "Do I know the correct answer?"
I 100% wholeheartedly agree with this. I really think that 'acing tests' should be a rewarding side-effect of actually preparing yourself to handle physicianship. The basis of what we learn in medicine could potential be the difference between someone having a father for many more years, and losing them tommorrow. If there's something that I don't feel one hundred percent confident on when learning in medical school, I'm damn sure going to master it regardless of whether I can get a 100% on the test or not. There's just too much riding on our knowledge NOT to do our absolute best to prepare ourselves for actual medicine, rather than just being at the top of the class.
 
I really think that 'acing tests' should be a rewarding side-effect of actually preparing yourself to handle physicianship. The basis of what we learn in medicine could potential be the difference between someone having a father for many more years, and losing them tommorrow. If there's something that I don't feel one hundred percent confident on when learning in medical school, I'm damn sure going to master it regardless of whether I can get a 100% on the test or not. There's just too much riding on our knowledge NOT to do our absolute best to prepare ourselves for actual medicine, rather than just being at the top of the class.
1. Although people usually exaggerate about the amount of material in med school, there really is far too much to be 100% confident about everything unless you've studied it before, or sometimes even then. There simply isn't enough time.

2. Obviously if you were to fully know and understand "everything" you'd be getting 100% on the tests. The dichotomy between knowledge and scoring well on tests is a false one.

3. A lot of preclinical knowledge is not going to be relevant to the practice of medicine. Some of it probably is irrelevant for nearly everyone, and much of it will depend on your specialty. Everything that is really important will be covered several times and retained though repetition. We will also refresh the important preclinical topics while studying for Step I.

I'm not saying it isn't better to try to do one's best, but this self-righteous line about how patient's lives depend on every little shred of information we are exposed to in the preclinical years is absurd.
 
I 100% wholeheartedly agree with this. I really think that 'acing tests' should be a rewarding side-effect of actually preparing yourself to handle physicianship. The basis of what we learn in medicine could potential be the difference between someone having a father for many more years, and losing them tommorrow. If there's something that I don't feel one hundred percent confident on when learning in medical school, I'm damn sure going to master it regardless of whether I can get a 100% on the test or not. There's just too much riding on our knowledge NOT to do our absolute best to prepare ourselves for actual medicine, rather than just being at the top of the class.
Oh, my poor, naive friend, after you finish your first class or block of med school, you absolutely must come back and bump up this thread so that we can all share a good laugh. Anyone who tried to do what you are suggesting would likely never make it past the first week. They'd be stuck there forever because the usual state of things is that medical students are never 100% confident about *anything* they have learned in medical school. If you want to master everything about a very small subject, forget medical school and go get your PhD. Seriously.

P.S. If you do have to reapply next year, add MCG to your list. Getting into medical school is hard enough that anyone who can do it should absolutely take advantage of their home state advantage at state schools. You can do some away rotations at the more academically-oriented schools as a fourth year, but first get yourself in somewhere.
 
Oh, my poor, naive friend, after you finish your first class or block of med school, you absolutely must come back and bump up this thread so that we can all share a good laugh. Anyone who tried to do what you are suggesting would likely never make it past the first week. They'd be stuck there forever because the usual state of things is that medical students are never 100% confident about *anything* they have learned in medical school. If you want to master everything about a very small subject, forget medical school and go get your PhD. Seriously.

P.S. If you do have to reapply next year, add MCG to your list. Getting into medical school is hard enough that anyone who can do it should absolutely take advantage of their home state advantage at state schools. You can do some away rotations at the more academically-oriented schools as a fourth year, but first get yourself in somewhere.

Haha. perhaps, perhaps. We probably will indeed. But for now, I'd like to stick to my idealistic delusions as long as possible thank you very much. :)
"Having beliefs is fine. It's when we are unwilling to change them that we run into problems."

In addition, I was absolutely planning to add MCG to my list next year. When I started down this road I planned to be applying next year to start with and not this year. Since I got my MCAT back though, I decided to give it a whirl at some of the better schools. Next year I'll be applying much more realistically than this year.
 
If you want to master everything about a very small subject, forget medical school and go get your PhD.
Yeah, I don't know about that either. I'm not 100% confident that anything I said in my thesis was right. On the other hand I would probably do really, really well on a multiple choice test about HIV structure, so at least I have that.
 
Haha. perhaps, perhaps. We probably will indeed. But for now, I'd like to stick to my idealistic delusions as long as possible thank you very much. :)
"Having beliefs is fine. It's when we are unwilling to change them that we run into problems."

In addition, I was absolutely planning to add MCG to my list next year. When I started down this road I planned to be applying next year to start with and not this year. Since I got my MCAT back though, I decided to give it a whirl at some of the better schools. Next year I'll be applying much more realistically than this year.
Understandable. You've got a stellar score, and of course should try for whatever schools are your dream schools. Just don't expect getting into med school to be a cakewalk, and cover all your bases.
Yeah, I don't know about that either. I'm not 100% confident that anything I said in my thesis was right. On the other hand I would probably do really, really well on a multiple choice test about HIV structure, so at least I have that.
Point granted. I'll edit my former statement to say, "If you want to master everything that we currently think we know about a very small subject, forget medical school and go get your PhD. But be prepared for most of what you learn to be proven wrong in another decade or two." :smuggrin: ;)
 
We know a little about a lot- thats about sums up med school. To be 100% confident with anything in med school is to know a lot about a lot: if there ever existed a medical student who knew a lot about a lot, I heard that the universe implodes. True story.
 
What was that saying again?

There are three kinds of people:

Those that don't know much about anything.
Those that know a little bit, but not enough to know how much they don't know.
And those that know alot, which is enough to realize that they really know nothing.

I dunno, I thought I heard that somewhere, but maybe I just pulled it out of my ass. Either/or. haha.
 
What was that saying again?

There are three kinds of people:

Those that don't know much about anything.
Those that know a little bit, but not enough to know how much they don't know.
And those that know alot, which is enough to realize that they really know nothing.

I dunno, I thought I heard that somewhere, but maybe I just pulled it out of my ass. Either/or. haha.


And then there are those who know enough to know that a lot is actually two words.
 
And then there are those who know enough to know that a lot is actually two words.

Oh sry. I guess I'll add that one to my list, and a special one for you:

What was that saying again?

There are three kinds of people:

Those that don't know much about anything.
Those that know a little bit, but not enough to know how much they don't know.
And those that know alot, which is enough to realize that they really know nothing.

Those that don't know that 'alot' is actually 'a lot'
Those that don't know how to use quotation marks

I dunno, I thought I heard that somewhere, but maybe I just pulled it out of my ass. Either/or. haha.


:p
 
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