Australian Medical schools as an American

[rrcru7]

Hey all,
I was hoping to solicit some advice on studying medicine abroad in OZ. My quick background:
Just graduated, studied Neuroscience at Rutgers University in NJ. (3.3 gpa, 3.3 sci gpa), 30 on the MCAt (9p, 11v, 10bio)

applied to medical school this cycle, 1 interview turned waitlist, rest rejections

While I was an undergrad, I studied abroad in OZ (at Macquarie, in Sydney) and I loved it.

Given my situation I am beginning to think about applying to Aussie medical schools next year, but I am apprehensive about it because no one I talk to knows anything about going down under. Has anyone done this? Any advice?

Specifically,
- is it hard to get in? Rather, with my stats would I have a shot?
- how is the education different?
- how hard is it to come back to the states?
- how hard is it to stay in oz to move permanently?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

- rrc

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[Winged Scapula]

I would suggest doing a search in this forum because your questions are very common and there are probably a dozen such threads which deal with the same issues.

 

[DrCos]

Australian Medical Schools are great places to study. Australian medical graduates are well regarded internationally. There are six Australian Universities in The Times' Top 50 Universities for Life Sciences and Biomedicine. Australian universities love international students like yourself.

Check out the following link:

http://www.amsa.org.au/publications/MedSchoolGuide.pdf

It lists all the current medical schools in Australia with contact details. Applications are made via individual medical schools. Australian medical schools may accept students straight from high school (usually a 5-6 year degree) or will accept post graduate students much like in the US. Post-graduate medical education is becoming the way to go at the moment. Recently the University of Melbourne has made their degree exlusively post graduate.

We have a small summary on our MyMedicalCareer website for prospective students. The following is a great link to get you started and should be all you need.

http://studyinaustralia.gov.au/Sia/Splash.aspx


Good luck.http://www.thegoodguides.com.au/

 

[lyndal]

Hi rrc

Great link by DrCos!

For what its worth, your scores are very competitive for the University of Wollongong. Let me know if you need any info. We are recrruiting now for 2009

Lyndal

 

[KCShaw]

I did exactly this, going to medical school at the University of Sydney. In my year there were ~9 or so U.S. born students, of...20-something total international students? (Crude estimate, I forget the number of international positions they have, and it has fluctuated some.) I'd say your numbers are competitive as an international student, but I'm not sure if USyd still accepts the MCAT. They are a 4 year program, but be sure to check if you seriously look at other Oz programs as some are still 6 year programs and some are/were in between.

You'll still have to sit the USMLE -- essentially, the requirements are identical to that of U.S. students except you'll also have to take the Test of English as a Foreign Language (I'm not kidding, but yes it is absurdly easy if English is your first language) in order to get ECFMG certification. Although while I was there the focus was less on basic sciences and more on clinical sciences, making Step I relatively un-taught, most of us who took it still did very well. Since then, the program has drifted towards a slightly more traditional style, though still with a lot of clinical focus and problem-based small-group sessions.

You will also carry the stigma of being an international medical graduate, which some programs in the U.S. still feel threatened by, though that is moderated by being U.S. born. Sad, but true. Australian medical schools, however, seem to be viewed better than many other foreign medical schools, which also tempers the IMG issue.

Financially I found it comparable to, even cheaper than, most places in the U.S., though the exchange rate was much more favorable at the time. I was also able to get Stafford loans. Tuition was AU$30k/year for an international student, as I recall. Sydney is relatively expensive for Oz, but for comparison I lived in a share apartment 15 minutes from the beach in a nice, safe area for $AU130/week (my share).

 

[Zuckman]

Hey KCShaw,

Great informative post. Did you have Canadians in your class? Were they able to match into the US as well? Also, what fields did your American and Canadian classmates match into?

Also, did you do your intern year in Oz and any RMO years or did you simply match into the US right after your graduation from Sydney med. Thanks for your help.

Zuck

 

[Blimp]

I am interested in attending Medical School is Australia. How do I get more information?

Thanks

 

[KCShaw]

First, I'm seeing that USyd is now up to $AU51k+ per year (!), but that appears to be the most expensive in the country. There's another thread (sorry, didn't save the link) in the "Australasia and Oceania" section that discusses tuition fees.

There were a few Canadians in my year -- 5 or fewer? I only remember one clearly, who did well on USMLE but I don't know how they fared in the match. Of the other Americans, one returned and eventually got into orthopedic surgery. Another person in my year, an Australian, came to the U.S. with her husband after internship and got into pediatrics. Several of the North American group stayed on in Oz, or I lost track of once we started internship. Since my year the ratio of Canadians to Americans has inverted -- I've heard they've had more than 10 Canadians most years. Again though, unfortunately, I don't know how any fared in trying to go to the U.S. or back to Canada.

I stayed and did an intern year in Oz because I wanted to leave the door open to staying, and wasn't 100% sure I wanted to go straight back to the U.S., or stay forever in Oz. At the time it was very easy to stay and get an internship at a central location, but it was very difficult to stay and get permanent residency status afterwards as a doctor (now it's easier). I entered the match towards the end of my internship year, which runs mid-January to mid-January. There was some difficulty in scheduling interviews of course, and I did some phone interviews for residency -- that was the most onerous part of the process to me.

 

[Zuckman]

KCShaw,

So for some residency programs they allow phone interviews? I didn't know that. I thought you'd have to interview in person. What did you match into? Did you find that you were on par with all the American students once you were in residency?

Did you find you were severely restricted in the US match for residencies?
If I go to Oz I don't mind doing an intern year. I think that would be good clinical training. Even after the intern year, the RMO years seem like pretty good pay.

Zuck

 

[KCShaw]

I didn't -feel- any more restricted than my numbers would support, at least in terms of getting interview offers. I did do some (er, a couple?) late phone interviews from Oz after my 2-3 week interview tour in the U.S., probably because those programs were not feeling lucky with who they had already interviewed. I wouldn't count on phone interviews as the path to success -- you'll really want to have several weeks back in the U.S., late enough in the season (up to just before Christmas, at the earliest, IMO) that you're likely to have all your interview offers in. I applied for, interviewed at, and matched in pathology, which had always been my specialty of choice (but wasn't considered the most competitive specialty). Once in residency, I felt at least on par with others at my year level.

Right now, junior/trainee docs in Oz get pretty good pay. During internship we actually got paid by the hour, so although they quoted a "salary" based on a 40hr work week (ha ha, ho ho) everyone took home significantly more. Still, the hours weren't bad -- rostered overtime about once every 7-10 days (either a 15 hour weekend day, or staying after hours until 10:30 PM), but nights were covered by a dedicated shift so most of us only covered 2 or 3 weeks of nights all year (except on ER, which had its own schedule). An average working week was probably ~60'ish hours, less if you buckled down during the day and wanted to head out to the beach, more if you had lots of rostered overtime and a heavy patient load.

One of the hard parts for me was deciding what programs were any good -- being based in Oz where most of my peers were NOT planning on going to the U.S. meant I had minimal information on residency programs beyond what ALWAYS INFINITELY ACCURATE information could be found online. Finding and keeping good contacts in the specialty you end up liking will, I think, give you a leg up.

 

[lyndal]

KCShaw

Thanks for these really informtaive posts on your experience.. great to hear how you found the process, and your advice I will pass on to the North American students currently in our program
Cheers

Lyndal
------------------------------------------------------------------
Associate Professor Lyndal Parker-Newlyn

Associate Professor of Medical Education
Academic Leader, Admissions and Selection
Head, GSM Shoalhaven Campus

Graduate School of Medicine
University of Wollongong NSW 2522
Ph (+61 2) 4429 1502 Fax (+61 2) 4429 1505
[email protected]

 

[shan564]

I didn't -feel- any more restricted than my numbers would support, at least in terms of getting interview offers. I did do some (er, a couple?) late phone interviews from Oz after my 2-3 week interview tour in the U.S., probably because those programs were not feeling lucky with who they had already interviewed. I wouldn't count on phone interviews as the path to success -- you'll really want to have several weeks back in the U.S., late enough in the season (up to just before Christmas, at the earliest, IMO) that you're likely to have all your interview offers in. I applied for, interviewed at, and matched in pathology, which had always been my specialty of choice (but wasn't considered the most competitive specialty). Once in residency, I felt at least on par with others at my year level.

Right now, junior/trainee docs in Oz get pretty good pay. During internship we actually got paid by the hour, so although they quoted a "salary" based on a 40hr work week (ha ha, ho ho) everyone took home significantly more. Still, the hours weren't bad -- rostered overtime about once every 7-10 days (either a 15 hour weekend day, or staying after hours until 10:30 PM), but nights were covered by a dedicated shift so most of us only covered 2 or 3 weeks of nights all year (except on ER, which had its own schedule). An average working week was probably ~60'ish hours, less if you buckled down during the day and wanted to head out to the beach, more if you had lots of rostered overtime and a heavy patient load.

One of the hard parts for me was deciding what programs were any good -- being based in Oz where most of my peers were NOT planning on going to the U.S. meant I had minimal information on residency programs beyond what ALWAYS INFINITELY ACCURATE information could be found online. Finding and keeping good contacts in the specialty you end up liking will, I think, give you a leg up.

What sort of USMLE score did it take for you to get into pathology?

 

[EtOHWithdrawal]

FYI, The TOEFL and CSA are no longer required for ECFMG certification, they have been replaced by the USMLE Step 2 CS (similar to an Australian OSCE). Required exams for ECFMG cert are USMLE step 1, 2CK and 2CS.

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Honestly, with a 30 MCAT and a 3.3 GPA overall, have you considered Osteopathic Medical schools in the US? These days there is no real difference between MDs and DOs, you might want to look at this route as well, if you are planning to live and work in the US after finishing school.

 

[Zuckman]

KCShaw,

That's great that you got your first choice of residency. Great information. Thanks very much!

Zuck

 

[JoeNamaMD]

Staying in Australia is very tricky especially in New South Wales and Victoria. If you go to a school in either of these states, the only way you are going to be able to stay is if you fall in love and marry an Australian, there are not enough internship spots in those States, and you need an internship to be considered a "Doctor" to immigrate through skilled migration. Even more silly is that international students who do get internships are considered "Overseas Trained Doctors", Huh??? Sad but true.

Really though, if you are planning to just work in the US the Osteopathic route will be far less painful and nerve wracking than going to any school outside Canada or the US.