average student at top programs

[jules777]

I've only recently decided to go for an internal medicine residency. After reading these threads by stellar applicants, I'm starting to get a little bit scared about this whole process. So I'm trying to figure out where I would be competitive. I know that these posts can be annoying, but any input would be greatly appreciated.

I have a 238 on step I. As far as clinical grades, I have honors in medicine and emergency medicine, high pass in all others. I come from a top 50 school in the northeast. I have two 2nd author publications in basic science research.

I think my stats are about average. So my question is do I even have a shot at the top IM programs like Columbia, MGH, Cornell? Or should I not waste my time doing electives at these programs?

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[nole stomper]

I just matched in medicine at a different program but was pretty upset I didn't get into any of the programs you mentioned. Here are my numbers:

--Step 1 >250
--At a top-30 med school in the Northeast
--Honors in medicine, surgery, psych, peds, ob/gyn and all my 4th-yr rotations
--AOA (4th year)
--7 publications in journals such as JBC, Oncogene, Blood (none of them as 1st author, though)
--Did an away sub-I at one of the programs you mentioned and was told by my attending there that I was 2 years ahead of where I should be

Don't get me wrong, I ended up at a great program. I just did not get my first or second choice, and I have no real hard explanation as to why. This doesn't mean you shouldn't apply to these places. If I were you, though, I wouldn't spend all my effort trying to get into one of them. I would choose a second-tier program (whatever that means; just not Hopkins, Brigham, MGH, Duke, UCSF) and make it clear to that one that that's where you want to go.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Crypt Abscess]

I think you would have a fairly good shot at Cornell or maybe even Columbia. I think you are a above average applicant that will match at a solid program.

I would not consider Duke as quite on the same level as Hopkins/MGH/UCSF because I know several folks that match at Duke from lower tier state med schools that had 230s Step 1 and Senior AOA.

In terms of med school rank- I truly think that it only matters for the top 10 med schools and if your school has a top ranked IM department. For example- UTSW (which barely eclipses the top 20 med school list most years) consistently places students at Hopkins/UCSF, and ocasional at MGH.

Just my .02

Good luck.

 

[fang]

I just matched in medicine at a different program but was pretty upset I didn't get into any of the programs you mentioned. Here are my numbers:

--Step 1 >250
--At a top-30 med school in the Northeast
--Honors in medicine, surgery, psych, peds, ob/gyn and all my 4th-yr rotations
--AOA (4th year)
--7 publications in journals such as JBC, Oncogene, Blood (none of them as 1st author, though)
--Did an away sub-I at one of the programs you mentioned and was told by my attending there that I was 2 years ahead of where I should be

Don't get me wrong, I ended up at a great program. I just did not get my first or second choice, and I have no real hard explanation as to why. This doesn't mean you shouldn't apply to these places. If I were you, though, I wouldn't spend all my effort trying to get into one of them. I would choose a second-tier program (whatever that means; just not Hopkins, Brigham, MGH, Duke, UCSF) and make it clear to that one that that's where you want to go.

Just my 2 cents.

What do you think went wrong? Those seem like excellent stats.

 

[nole stomper]

The thing that hurt me the most was that I was somewhat geographically restricted as to where I could apply, so I couldn't go all over the country. I'm pretty sure if I had, I would have ended up at a top-10 program. Sadly, I think another reason is that I'm a white male. Not much I can do about that.

 

[PrimaMD]

What does you being a white male have to do with anything? Look around you, most people in medicine are white males.

 

[manning18]

PrimaMD, I think you answered your own question when you said, "most people in Medicine are white males." Nole Stomper can speak for himself, but he seems to be implying that, as a white male, it'r harder to get selected at top programs than as a female or person of color. If you take someone who is the "opposite" of white male, a Black Female, it would be MUCH easier for her to match at MGH than for Nole Stomper. By MUCH easier, I mean that she would not have to have the kind of numbers, grades and research that Nole Stomper (who couldn't get in) had. It would be like applying to Harvard, Hopkins, etc for Medical School. The standards are going to be much higher for Caucasian (and Asian) applicants than for Hispanic or African-American applicants. That's not to say that there aren't eqaully smart African-Americans or Hispanics out there, but that's just how it goes. The same would go for applying to top Law or Business schools. Is this right? I don't know if that question can be answered, but it is reality!

 

[fang]

PrimaMD, I think you answered your own question when you said, "most people in Medicine are white males." Nole Stomper can speak for himself, but he seems to be implying that, as a white male, it'r harder to get selected at top programs than as a female or person of color. If you take someone who is the "opposite" of white male, a Black Female, it would be MUCH easier for her to match at MGH than for Nole Stomper. By MUCH easier, I mean that she would not have to have the kind of numbers, grades and research that Nole Stomper (who couldn't get in) had. It would be like applying to Harvard, Hopkins, etc for Medical School. The standards are going to be much higher for Caucasian (and Asian) applicants than for Hispanic or African-American applicants. That's not to say that there aren't eqaully smart African-Americans or Hispanics out there, but that's just how it goes. The same would go for applying to top Law or Business schools. Is this right? I don't know if that question can be answered, but it is reality!

I'd agree if you include white, Asian, and Indian male and female applicants. Half or more than half of medical schools are now female, and even though the distribution varies between specialties, I don't think internal medicine is hurting for female applicants. (Let's not make this an AA thread though.)

I bet NoleStomper could have gone to a top 10 program if he'd applied outside his area, and I bet geography had more to do with it than race. Sorry to hear that though NS; at least you get to stay in the city you like!

 

[DrNick2006]

To OP, columbia and cornell are great programs by rep, but not any better than about 20 other great programs across the country IMO. You should definitely do aways at these programs as while you do have a competitive app, you could still get lost in the mix with all the apps that get sent out every year to these programs. Doing aways is really only of benifit if you do them at reach places, cause you're unlikely to hurt yourself if you don't do well, but if you do well it easily makes the difference between an interview or not. If your heart is set on a program do an away, get a letter and you should have no troubles getting an interview. I think there are really only 3 or 4 programs where a good applicant can do a great away and still get overlooked, MGH, BWH, UCSF, JHU.

BTW, I go went to a middle of the road state school and we match people to BWH every year, UCLA, U Chicago, Michigan etc. so med school I think is of limited importance.

 

[DrNick2006]

I just matched in medicine at a different program but was pretty upset I didn't get into any of the programs you mentioned. Here are my numbers:

--Step 1 >250
--At a top-30 med school in the Northeast
--Honors in medicine, surgery, psych, peds, ob/gyn and all my 4th-yr rotations
--AOA (4th year)
--7 publications in journals such as JBC, Oncogene, Blood (none of them as 1st author, though)
--Did an away sub-I at one of the programs you mentioned and was told by my attending there that I was 2 years ahead of where I should be

Don't get me wrong, I ended up at a great program. I just did not get my first or second choice, and I have no real hard explanation as to why. This doesn't mean you shouldn't apply to these places. If I were you, though, I wouldn't spend all my effort trying to get into one of them. I would choose a second-tier program (whatever that means; just not Hopkins, Brigham, MGH, Duke, UCSF) and make it clear to that one that that's where you want to go.

Just my 2 cents.

You sound like a shoe-in to any program in the county to me.

 

[inositide]

Having been through the IM application process as well, I am quite surprised that nomestomper did not get into his/her first or second choice program.

The application sounds stellar to me.

My suspicion is that there *might* have been some comment in one or more of the letters of rec that did not go over too well with the PDs or an interview did not go as optimally as it should have.

Some of my fellow classmates with seemingly weaker applications as compared to nomestomper successfully matched to what were NS's top choices.

It is strange. However, as I have said before, sometimes IM placements are hard to predict because so many applicants have strikingly similar applications and it can become luck of the draw as to who gets an interview and who is placed where on the rank list.

My advice for the original message author would be to apply strategically, but broadly, when it comes time for residency applications.

 

[matakanan]

Of course how u perform at an interview matters A Lot !

 

[TheFreshPrince]

I'd agree if you include white, Asian, and Indian male and female applicants. Half or more than half of medical schools are now female, and even though the distribution varies between specialties, I don't think internal medicine is hurting for female applicants. (Let's not make this an AA thread though.)

I bet NoleStomper could have gone to a top 10 program if he'd applied outside his area, and I bet geography had more to do with it than race. Sorry to hear that though NS; at least you get to stay in the city you like!

I wasn't aware there was AA in residency applications. This is why a lot of urms go into primary care because they aren't competitive for the more coveted residency spots. Yes there is AA in business and law school apps. However, to compare residency apps to law and business apps isn't really fair. However, I'm probably wrong so to each his own. Why would these programs lower standards? I'm not saying it isn't harder as a white male, but I was under the impression that residency placement was base on merit and sometimes on who you know.

 

[neutropenic]

I'm not saying it isn't harder as a white male, but I was under the impression that residency placement was base on merit and sometimes on who you know.

Diversity is a goal in residency just as much as in medical school admissions.

 

[TheFreshPrince]

Diversity is a goal in residency just as much as in medical school admissions.

I see.

 

[tofurious]

Diversity is a goal in residency just as much as in medical school admissions.

How do you go about ensuring diversity on a rank list when you may be missing desired applicants #4 to #8 but get #9 and #12 by their choice?

 

[neutropenic]

Diversity is a goal. Whether one can actually "ensure" it on a rank list remains a not so perfect science. Not all programs are as diversity hungry, but it remains a general overall mission of many programs, probably more so in say in specialties like medicine than in ortho.

 

[Tinsley]

minority applicants at my medical school actually did NOT do well in the match. Especially minority males. I was curious whether anyone else noticed this at their medical schools this year.

 

[Hard24Get]

I wasn't aware there was AA in residency applications. This is why a lot of urms go into primary care because they aren't competitive for the more coveted residency spots. Yes there is AA in business and law school apps. However, to compare residency apps to law and business apps isn't really fair. However, I'm probably wrong so to each his own. Why would these programs lower standards? I'm not saying it isn't harder as a white male, but I was under the impression that residency placement was base on merit and sometimes on who you know.

Hold up, you guys. The ERAS does not allow a place for race to be listed, so this means that up to the interview the process is color-blind. Therefore, everyone being interviewed has numbers that are acceptable to that program.

Second of all, I don't think FreshPrince looks anything like his pic , or he would know that the majority of URMs that go into primary care do so because they want to, not because they can't compete. It's a historical preference based on culture, like men being more prominent in surgery and women filling up most of the ob/gyn slots. Is it because men can't compete in ob/gyn? no.

minority applicants at my medical school actually did NOT do well in the match. Especially minority males. I was curious whether anyone else noticed this at their medical schools this year.

According to Iserson's guide, minorities have a tougher time matching sometimes because most residency directors say they don't want "too many" at their program (by anonymous poll of course). Thus, depending on the size of the program, only 1-2 URMs will be ranked to match.

 

[neutropenic]

Page Ten - Race
Page ten allows you to enter your race. This question is optional, if you choose not to indicate your race please select No Answer. The options you have for race are:


White
Black
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Asian (Asian Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Filipino, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, or other Asian)
Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander (Native Hawaiian, Guamanian or Chamorro, Samoan, or other Pacific Islander)
Other

http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/usemyeras/application.htm#p10

Page Eleven - Ethnicity
Page eleven allows you to enter you ethnicity. Like page ten, this page is also optional; you are not required to identify your ethnicity. If you choose not to disclose your ethnicity click on None. The ethnicity options you have are:

http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/usemyeras/application.htm#p11

I don't know where you go to school but the URMs at my school did very well in the match and most all went into specialties that were competitive (e.g. rads, surgery, hard to get IM programs).

* * *

According to Iserson's guide, minorities have a tougher time matching sometimes because most residency directors say they don't want "too many" at their program (by anonymous poll of course). Thus, depending on the size of the program, only 1-2 URMs will be ranked to match.

Isserson's book is out-of-date. I hope in this day in age program directors would be hesitant to say they don't want too many "d*mn minorities" in their programs, especially when the patient base is turning more and more brown. IMHO diversity is definitely a goal of most programs. This year we matched an AA ortho resident in a field that is typically not diverse.

 

[Wonderous]

Thanks for your insight! How often do people actually enter their race? I'm thinking of not giving mine so that the haters know that I could get an interview with or without it.

http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/usemyeras/application.htm#p10



http://www.aamc.org/students/eras/usemyeras/application.htm#p11

I don't know where you go to school but the URMs at my school did very well in the match and most all went into specialties that were competitive (e.g. rads, surgery, hard to get IM programs).

* * *



Isserson's book is out-of-date. I hope in this day in age program directors would be hesitant to say they don't want too many "d*mn minorities" in their programs, especially when the patient base is turning more and more brown. IMHO diversity is definitely a goal of most programs. This year we matched an AA ortho resident in a field that is typically not diverse.

 

[Hard24Get]

Thanks for your insight! How often do people actually enter their race? I'm thinking of not giving mine so that the haters know that I could get an interview with or without it.

I'm definitely not listing mine. Thanks for the clarification, neutropenic!

 

[jrisley]

I've only recently decided to go for an internal medicine residency. After reading these threads by stellar applicants, I'm starting to get a little bit scared about this whole process. So I'm trying to figure out where I would be competitive. I know that these posts can be annoying, but any input would be greatly appreciated.

I have a 238 on step I. As far as clinical grades, I have honors in medicine and emergency medicine, high pass in all others. I come from a top 50 school in the northeast. I have two 2nd author publications in basic science research.

I think my stats are about average. So my question is do I even have a shot at the top IM programs like Columbia, MGH, Cornell? Or should I not waste my time doing electives at these programs?

1. yer an idiot, and yer posts are def annoying.
2. although it probably actually inflates your pathetic ego to hear that not every applicant has a step 1 score >85% and hails from a top tier school, I sincerely hope you don't even match you pathetic piece of sh_it.

 

[Hard24Get]

1. yer an idiot, and yer posts are def annoying.
2. although it probably actually inflates your pathetic ego to hear that not every applicant has a step 1 score >85% and hails from a top tier school, I sincerely hope you don't even match you pathetic piece of sh_it.

His thread gets hijacked and then he gets insulted!

 

[jules777]

1. yer an idiot, and yer posts are def annoying.
2. although it probably actually inflates your pathetic ego to hear that not every applicant has a step 1 score >85% and hails from a top tier school, I sincerely hope you don't even match you pathetic piece of sh_it.

too late now, but my original post was to figure out where i should be doing away electives. and yes i know, i'll most likely match. but by no means am i a top notch candidate. my board score is good, but 3rd year sucked big time for me with HP in all rotations except for two. i was told recently by an advisor at my school that clinical year grades are what matters most and even though my board score is fine that i have a slim shot at the bigger name places as listed above. simple. that is all i wanted to know. if you think that is "pathetic" then fine. if u still want to get all worked up about my original post then that is your own issue.

anyway, thanks to others for the helpful advice... and the random AA tidbits.