Away Rotation: Hennepin vs. Christus Spohn

[Fox800]

Hi all. I'm a third-year DO student with one elective to use this spring. I've been accepted to do an away rotation at both Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis and Christus Spohn in Corpus Christi. I have quite a few classmates who have rotated at Christus Spohn and they had really good experiences/letters, but I don't know anyone around here who's rotated at Hennepin.

This will be my first audition rotation. Hennepin obviously has a big name and reputation but I'm thinking it might be tougher to get a good letter because they probably attract more competitive applicants. Christus Spohn is a newer program and is unopposed except for an FM residency program, so the EM residents get to do a lot and that trickles down to the rotating medical students (or so I'm told).

Also of note, Christus Spohn provides housing (nice bonus) while Hennepin does not.

Any advice about picking one program vs. the other?

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[Tri4thlete]

HCMC in Minnesota?

If so, I'm from MN and I was an EMT for years. We transferred many patients to HCMC. They are well known for having a superb burn unit. It's also a county hospital so they get a high volume of patients which means you will see anything and everything. Overall, I think it's a great hospital. Can't comment on the program itself, just giving you my two cents from the times I've been there

 

[Fox800]

HCMC in Minnesota?

If so, I'm from MN and I was an EMT for years. We transferred many patients to HCMC. They are well known for having a superb burn unit. It's also a county hospital so they get a high volume of patients which means you will see anything and everything. Overall, I think it's a great hospital. Can't comment on the program itself, just giving you my two cents from the times I've been there

That's the one!

 

[shoal]

Hcmc is a mecca for em... One of the best programs in the country, you're correct, it'll be harder to honor there then the other hospital. With your medic experience youll like have a leg up on others. Do whichever one u want.

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[DrDrummer]

I'll put in a vote for Hennepin based on my experience there. I earned honors as an out-of-state visiting medical student and I don't feel like I am exceptional in any regard, so I wouldn't say that their grading scheme makes it very difficult to do well quantitatively-- do study for the shelf at the end if you go there, and make sure you go over the assigned reading, since they assess the nitty gritty there. But overall, very fair grading.

Hennepin is absolutely one of the best programs in the country. I've had the privilege to be invited on interviews at a lot of the other "best" programs since rotating there, and many of my interviewers have mentioned the high esteem they hold the place in. It's a great place to see what an almost aggressively autonomous, academic, county-but-high-functioning program looks like. The faculty there have authored a good proportion of the chapters in Rosen's. The IM/EM residents and the PGY-3 pit bosses are very bright, very capable, and do a good job teaching. Beyond that, you get ownership of patients more than I've seen anywhere else-- you're the provider of record in Epic, you write a chart, and you can put in orders (that are then pended and either approved or changed by the resident you're working with). It was a disappointment to go back from here to my home institution, where I had very little "ownership" of the patients I was seeing. Will you intubate at HCMC? Nope. But will you learn a lot and come away with a guaranteed interview at one of the best programs in the nation, and a good chance at a very highly-respected letter with a fair grade on it? Yup.

 

[normtheniner]

I'll put in a vote for Hennepin based on my experience there. I earned honors as an out-of-state visiting medical student and I don't feel like I am exceptional in any regard, so I wouldn't say that their grading scheme makes it very difficult to do well quantitatively-- do study for the shelf at the end if you go there, and make sure you go over the assigned reading, since they assess the nitty gritty there. But overall, very fair grading.

Hennepin is absolutely one of the best programs in the country. I've had the privilege to be invited on interviews at a lot of the other "best" programs since rotating there, and many of my interviewers have mentioned the high esteem they hold the place in. It's a great place to see what an almost aggressively autonomous, academic, county-but-high-functioning program looks like. The faculty there have authored a good proportion of the chapters in Rosen's. The IM/EM residents and the PGY-3 pit bosses are very bright, very capable, and do a good job teaching. Beyond that, you get ownership of patients more than I've seen anywhere else-- you're the provider of record in Epic, you write a chart, and you can put in orders (that are then pended and either approved or changed by the resident you're working with). It was a disappointment to go back from here to my home institution, where I had very little "ownership" of the patients I was seeing. Will you intubate at HCMC? Nope. But will you learn a lot and come away with a guaranteed interview at one of the best programs in the nation, and a good chance at a very highly-respected letter with a fair grade on it? Yup.

I've got a Hennepin interview coming up. This makes me excited to see the program!

 

[noshie]

As a fellow DO... I would go with Christus Spohn. I actually did a little research on Hennepin last year when I was applying for auditions, and I personally think it would be a better experience than Christus. However, the only reason I didn't pursue Hennepin was because they are not super DO friendly. Last year, my research showed 0% DOs in the program. They currently have one DO in their new class, so hopefully their low DO numbers will continue to increase. Christus has around 50% DOs in their program. That is a huge difference in terms of DO friendliness and I feel that it reflects the possibility of getting into one of these residences.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I'd be a bit careful how you interpret the percentage of DOs at a program. Sometimes selection bias and other factors play more of a role in how many wind up in the program than how the program feels about DOs.

Things to keep in mind, there are a lot of MN grads who apply to and wind up EM at HCMC. People in MN often like to stick around. There are no osteopathic medical schools in MN and the surrounding area, so there might not be a lot of DOs applying there in the first place compared to other places. Since its a high caliber program that doesn't historically have a lot of DO residents, that can further deter people from applying who might actually have had a shot.

There are actually two DOs right now, one a first year in the EM program, and one a second year in the EM/IM program. The caliber of their EM/IM residents is extremely high and if they are willing to accept a DO, that indicates, to me at least, that they aren't opposed to taking well qualified applicants in either program.

With regards to rotations, I can't speak as a Med Student or resident, but I can say that my med student friends who rotated there felt it was a great rotation and it is considered a highly desired rotation by students at the U of MN. I also spent some time doing clinical research in the ED as part of my grad program and was impressed by the amount of teaching given to students and residents, as well as the level the residents seemed to perform at (as much as I can assess as an allied health professional anyway). My real job is at another big teaching institution where I work with a lot of residents and fellows and do some teaching and I was more impressed with the HCMC folks than a lot of folks here at big famous place...

 

[Tri4thlete]

From my experience, it seems MN as a whole is really DO friendly, I wouldn't think you would have any problem with bias.

 

[John146]

As a fellow DO and 3rd year resident at a MD program in the Northeast who rotated and interviewed at Corpus, I think it's an excellent program and definitely the wiser choice to do a rotation. I can't say enough good things about that program.

I disagree with some other posters who say not to over-read into how many DO's are in a program. Being heavily involved in the interview process at my institution for 3 years now, DO's are looked at as MD-equivalents at very few institutions (no matter what anyone tells you). Even at my shop which is "very DO friendly," you have to be a MUCH stronger applicant on paper just to get an interview, we take very few DO's, and will rank an MD higher if two applicants are "the same on paper."

I highly recommend seeking out "DO friendly" places not only for interviews but for rotations as that always will give you a the best chance of successfully matching.

 

[Fox800]

I ended up going with Hennepin. Had a great time, learned a lot, saw a part of the country I hadn't seen before. Smart, capable residents, great didactics, and a (relatively) smoothly-functioning hospital system. Got honors as a visiting D.O. student, so it all worked out.

 

[DrDrummer]

Hennepin is awesome. Has DO residents, and is an amazing rotation all around. Go there.

 

[SalemK]

Regarding DOs rotating at Hennepin:
From the Hennepin website --Application Criteria (for a 3rd or 4th year rotation)
Applications from foreign medical school students and osteopathic students must include USMLE Step 1 score which would need to be above 225 and your class rank in the top 10% of your class.

Anyone know if there is any wiggle room on those rules? My Step 1 was 223 (sigh) and I'm in the top 25%, but not top 10%. I'll be honest, though, seeing this makes me feel like the program is anti-DO and I should spend my time elsewhere. Thoughts?

 

[alpinism]

I wouldn't say they're anti-DO per se since looking at their website they have 2 DOs who are current residents.

As far as MD residencies go they're probably middle of the road in terms of being DO friendly. Remember, there are still some MD residencies who don't even accept DOs (unofficially) and quite a few others who require great board scores to even be considered (>230). The away rotation criteria probably falls in line with what many competitive MD programs look for when evaluating DO applicants for residency. On the bright side, at least you know this up front rather that finding it out after you already rotated.

With that being said, I'd want to rotate at a program where I had a good shot at matching. Unless you have strong ties to MN or know for certain its one of your top choices I'd personally look elsewhere.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Fox800]

Regarding DOs rotating at Hennepin:
From the Hennepin website --Application Criteria (for a 3rd or 4th year rotation)
Applications from foreign medical school students and osteopathic students must include USMLE Step 1 score which would need to be above 225 and your class rank in the top 10% of your class.

Anyone know if there is any wiggle room on those rules? My Step 1 was 223 (sigh) and I'm in the top 25%, but not top 10%. I'll be honest, though, seeing this makes me feel like the program is anti-DO and I should spend my time elsewhere. Thoughts?

I'm a DO student and NOT top 10%, more like top 30% (did very well on Step 1 though) and they accepted me for a rotation. However one of my classmates who I'm pretty sure is top 10% of my class was rejected, so it seems random. Just go ahead and apply, the worst they can do is say no.

I wouldn't say they are super DO-friendly, but they are open to it. I met one of the EM/IM residents who was a PGY-3, and he was the first DO they've ever taken. They have taken another one since then.

It's a great program, so apply.