“BA to Ph.D” VS “LCSW to PhD”

[Danagirl]

Hi I am heading back to school soon for LCSW track in Southern California; however, I just researched that some programs and realized you can do PhD at some accredited schools without a Masters. Has anyone here done this? I would like to apply sometime within the next 12 months potentially and I would prioritize the PhD since a Psychologist can do more. I would like to be able to be making decent money in 5 years even if I am still in school/internship. I’m great at writing and research but I am returning to school after 8 years working at age 30. I don’t have any clinical or medical school experience. My major for BA is also non related to psychology but I can start coursework for that this year.

Has anyone done the Bachelor to PhD/PsyD if so, do you have any tips?

For those who did something like LCSW to PhD/PsD, is it possible to start accumulating LCSW hours while in major?
Did you attempt to layer LCSW supervision work under your PhD time?
Do you feel the PhD actually increased your pay or made the quality of work offered to you better than just the LCSW? I’ve heard some people say the PhD didn’t increase their pay. I really want a private practice in the future but hirability is always something in the back of my mind. LCSW according to many people have more opportunities.

Since I am 30 I am trying to make the best financial decision with potential debt while also considering the time it’s going to take to complete and the stress of financial burden in older age.

All answers opinions and experiences welcomed and appreciated!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I think you'll find that most of us around here went into phd program without getting a masters first. That's the typical route forvdictoral training in psychology.

Be aware that masters in social work is is a whole different field than psychology, with it's own training model and standards, as well as accreditation. Most of your coursework and clinical experience wontvapply to graduate training in psychology. Its also unlikely to make you more competitive for phd programs.

 

[Danagirl]

I think you'll find that most of us around here went into phd program without getting a masters first. That's the typical route forvdictoral training in psychology.

Be aware that masters in social work is is a whole different field than psychology, with it's own training model and standards, as well as accreditation. Most of your coursework and clinical experience wontvapply to graduate training in psychology. Its also unlikely to make you more competitive for phd programs.

Interesting it wouldn’t make my application more competitive. It seems like a better deal to go for Psychology PhD or PsyD directly. What do you feel makes a person’s application more “competitive”? Would it make more sense to just take some psychology courses for a semester and then apply? My BA is in a completely different field and I know I will need references from people who seem relevant.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Interesting it wouldn’t make my application more competitive. It seems like a better deal to go for Psychology PhD or PsyD directly. What do you feel makes a person’s application more “competitive”? Would it make more sense to just take some psychology courses for a semester and then apply? My BA is in a completely different field and I know I will need references from people who seem relevant.

This is a common question on this board , and there's lots of great info on here. Make sure to search and read through other threads. In short, getting some research experience (such as working as research assistant in a psych lab) is what you need the most to be competitive for a funded phd program. If you ha e no psych courses, it may be necessary to take some. Get high scores on your GREs. Its very competitive and a lot of work. Psyd program (and bad phd program) competitiveness runs the gamut form being the same as a funded phd program to basically just having pulse and the ability to sign a promissary note.

Again- lost of more detailed info on this board related to this topic, as well as deciding if doctoral training makes sense given your goals and history. Take a look around.

 

[Danagirl]

This is a common question on this board , and there's lots of great info on here. Make sure to search and read through other threads. In short, getting some research experience (such as working as research assistant in a psych lab) is what you need the most to be competitive for a funded phd program. If you ha e no psych courses, it may be necessary to take some. Get high scores on your GREs. Its very competitive and a lot of work. Psyd program (and bad phd program) competitiveness runs the gamut form being the same as a funded phd program to basically just having pulse and the ability to sign a promissary note.

Again- lost of more detailed info on this board related to this topic, as well as deciding if doctoral training makes sense given your goals and history. Take a look around.

Thank you. I will research some more for the details. This gives me a great point to start!

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

I'm sorry to say that you will likely not be making decent money in 5 years if you choose to go the PhD route.

 

[Sanman]

I'm sorry to say that you will likely not be making decent money in 5 years if you choose to go the PhD route.

I'm not sure what "decent money" is to the OP, but it will not happen in 5 years. 6-10 yrs is the average and given that the OP does not have relevant coursework, I am betting more on the higher end of the spectrum.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

I'm not sure what "decent money is to the OP, but it will not happen in 5 years. 6-10 yrs is the average and given that the OP does not have relevant coursework, I am betting more on the higher end of the spectrum.

Yes, definitely. I went straight from undergraduate, "only" took 5 years of graduate school, and "only" completed a 1 year post-doc - so best case scenario, started making good money on Year 7.

 

[Danagirl]

Yes, definitely. I went straight from undergraduate, "only" took 5 years of graduate school, and "only" completed a 1 year post-doc - so best case scenario, started making good money on Year 7.

That’s a thought I had too, everything takes longer then you expect and God forbid you need to take a break or have a crisis. I live in Los Angeles so due to the expense of just living I feel like getting the LCSW first might be more practical. I don’t want to take out loans for rent and bills when a lot of counselors and psychologists don’t seem happy with their pay.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

That’s a thought I had too, everything takes longer then you expect and God forbid you need to take a break or have a crisis. I live in Los Angeles so due to the expense of just living I feel like getting the LCSW first might be more practical. I don’t want to take out loans for rent and bills when a lot of counselors and psychologists don’t seem happy with their pay.

I will say I am happy with my pay now - with the caveat that I did not take out loans and lived on my stipend and with the knowledge that I wouldn't be making decent money for many many years.

 

[PsyDr]

Social work is a wholly separate profession. IMO, the curriculum is wholly inadequate. In the programs I have reviewed, the first year is generally related to social work theory, and the second year is about mental health. For example: in review of an Ivy's curriculum, the MSW students take THREE total classes that are directly related to clinical work. And then it is all practica and internship. Does that sound okay?

Many clinical psych programs will not allow you to practice under a different license while in school.

 

[Danagirl]

Many clinical psych programs will not allow you to practice under a different license while in school.

now that I did not know. That would make the LCSW practically pointless in terms of being able to work part time while in school, sigh. If money were no object I would just do the PhD but I’m trying to be practical because I know there’s no one I can financially count on but myself.

for people who are practicing at PhD level do you atleast feel financially stable with a good amount of autonomy

I’m trying to get out of what I call the financial warzone where people are basically laid off every few years due to corporate take overs or just down right greed. All your co-workers are competitors. Your boss wants you to train the person who they are hiring to replace you at a lower salary. I’ve worked at companies where the older, higher paid staff are cut first.

I even noticed in college that professors seem to now be in the trenches. This semester you see them,next semester you don’t. There were professors teaching at 3 different colleges nowhere close to each other, counties away!

Tech is overglorified, I know people who went that route and I have seen the lack of autonomy and How fast they get rid of people if they are ill. Not a good industry to age in from what I have seen. So this is one of reasons why I want to not just learn a profession but also how to set my self up for a financially stable well paying private practice. And not feel like I’m going to get punished for actually using my autonomy.

Something doesn’t quite sit as well with me about LCSW but I know it’s got tons of demand that would increase stability which seems like an underrated consideration. But if I can’t practice for 5-7 years we can hang that up.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

now that I did not know. That would make the LCSW practically pointless in terms of being able to work part time while in school, sigh. If money were no object I would just do the PhD but I’m trying to be practical because I know there’s no one I can financially count on but myself.

for people who are practicing at PhD level do you atleast feel financially stable with a good amount of autonomy

I’m trying to get out of what I call the financial warzone where people are basically laid off every few years due to corporate take overs or just down right greed. All your co-workers are competitors. Your boss wants you to train the person who they are hiring to replace you at a lower salary. I’ve worked at companies where the older, higher paid staff are cut first.

I even noticed in college that professors seem to now be in the trenches. This semester you see them,next semester you don’t. There were professors teaching at 3 different colleges nowhere close to each other, counties away!

Tech is overglorified, I know people who went that route and I have seen the lack of autonomy and How fast they get rid of people if they are ill. Not a good industry to age in from what I have seen. So this is one of reasons why I want to not just learn a profession but also how to set my self up for a financially stable well paying private practice. And not feel like I’m going to get punished for actually using my autonomy.

Something doesn’t quite sit as well with me about LCSW but I know it’s got tons of demand that would increase stability which seems like an underrated consideration. But if I can’t practice for 5-7 years we can hang that up.

This, unfortunately, can also happen in healthcare, depending on your hospital system/clinic/practice. Maybe not as often as in some other industries, though.

For me personally, I do feel stable both financially and with respect to my position (knock on wood and all that). I have an adequate amount of autonomy, typical healthcare bureaucracy notwithstanding. Mental health is generally a field folks can age in successfully. Stability is typically good, but there's some variability. It's interesting (to me), and there's always something new to learn. All in all, there are worse fields and professions to pursue. But yes, I wouldn't count on earning a decent living for at least 6-7 years. At that point, especially if like to burn the candle at both ends, you could probably be more than happy with your income.

 

[PsyDuck90]

It's a few years old, but here is a link to an article discussing the APA's workforce study that came out in 2017. This can give you an idea for salaries.

Running a successful private practice will, by and large, have more to do with your business acumen than your clinical skills. If you search through these forums, some of the well-established folks on here have dropped nuggets of information here or there about running a private practice and all the overhead expenses, billing insurance, and the like.

Another thing to note, if you pursue a PhD, there is a significant chance that you will have to relocate for grad school. There are some great programs, like UCLA, but the majority of the programs in California are sub-par and/or will put you in an extraordinary amount of debt. The majority of programs are fully funded, but there are several programs that cost an arm and a leg to attend. These tend to be concentrated in heavily desirable areas like California and NYC. Many people relocate for doctoral training, sometimes multiple times between grad school, internship, and post-doc. Just be prepared for this possibility. Grad school debt can definitely crush your dreams of financial independence and stability. Psychologists do not make enough to justify six-figure debt loads.

 

[thebalmofhurtminds]

Yes, if we're talking about running a private practice, it's certainly at least 15 years down the line before any measure of stability.

 

[Sanman]

now that I did not know. That would make the LCSW practically pointless in terms of being able to work part time while in school, sigh. If money were no object I would just do the PhD but I’m trying to be practical because I know there’s no one I can financially count on but myself.

for people who are practicing at PhD level do you atleast feel financially stable with a good amount of autonomy

I’m trying to get out of what I call the financial warzone where people are basically laid off every few years due to corporate take overs or just down right greed. All your co-workers are competitors. Your boss wants you to train the person who they are hiring to replace you at a lower salary. I’ve worked at companies where the older, higher paid staff are cut first.

I even noticed in college that professors seem to now be in the trenches. This semester you see them,next semester you don’t. There were professors teaching at 3 different colleges nowhere close to each other, counties away!

Tech is overglorified, I know people who went that route and I have seen the lack of autonomy and How fast they get rid of people if they are ill. Not a good industry to age in from what I have seen. So this is one of reasons why I want to not just learn a profession but also how to set my self up for a financially stable well paying private practice. And not feel like I’m going to get punished for actually using my autonomy.

Something doesn’t quite sit as well with me about LCSW but I know it’s got tons of demand that would increase stability which seems like an underrated consideration. But if I can’t practice for 5-7 years we can hang that up.

While there is relative stability in some areas (I work for the federal government, some universities and AMCs, etc) I am not sure that it is that different from other careers. Plenty of hospitals looking to hire LCSWs over psychologists to save money. Plenty of universities paying for part-time labor rather than tenure track jobs. Private practice is great for autonomy, but it is not always stable either. Look at COVID, clients stop coming to the office, adapt or go broke. That said, it you don't have others to help you that is something to consider. There are more w-2 jobs available to you as an LCSW and you can work your way up. For example, I worked with a social worker that worked in a nursing home for money while getting hours to become a therapist. This is important if you are starting out and don't have anyone to lean on for money while building a business or finishing your degree. LCSW can also have their own private practice, they are just more limited in what they can do (therapy vs assessment ,etc). So, the thing to consider here is that you are risking more in the beginning to get the PhD (When you have to move across the country for internship or post-doc, who is paying your expenses? Security deposit on your new place? EPPP materials and licensing costs?). I had parents to help if my car broke down or I needed a small loan. Many people had spouses with a job. However, you stand to make a bit more as a psychologist if you navigate the rough first decade.

 

[WisNeuro]

Plenty of work in neuropsych. In my metro, most of us are sitting at 6+month wait lists. I recently got more into the IME game, and I probably have requests for IME's at about 4X the volume than I can actually accommodate. It'll probably slow down as the COVID backlog starts to clear, but other colleagues in the area turn down for more cases than they take on. So, there's good money to be made, but reputation matters, and as @Sanman states, about a decade of living like a grad student, very long weeks, and such. But, for some of us, a 30 hr work week, with complete control of your schedule, and income well into the six figures is likely. But, it's not the mean, nor the median.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Plenty of work in neuropsych. In my metro, most of us are sitting at 6+month wait lists. I recently got more into the IME game, and I probably have requests for IME's at about 4X the volume than I can actually accommodate. It'll probably slow down as the COVID backlog starts to clear, but other colleagues in the area turn down for more cases than they take on. So, there's good money to be made, but reputation matters, and as @Sanman states, about a decade of living like a grad student, very long weeks, and such. But, for some of us, a 30 hr work week, with complete control of your schedule, and income well into the six figures is likely. But, it's not the mean, nor the median.

It is also pretty specific work. There are a lot of people who are drawn to psychology to provide therapy and whatnot, though those people don't tend to be a great fit for neuropsych. It's not that neuropsych ppl can't also offer therapy, but it is just not common for a range of reasons including financial but also area of interest.

For students reading, it's difficult to do neuropsych, it can't be done "on the side", there are numerous hurdles to jump over to do it right, and competition is usually pretty stiff at each level of the process. It's also not the panacea that some students think, as the day to day work can be challenging for different reasons than for people who do mostly/all therapy. There is often a forensic component and you are far more likely to have to deal with lawyers. There is also a heavy reliance on research and stats. It's not so much "producing" research as it is consuming a lot of articles and using it in the work.

As for the supply v. demand....it is very geographically dependent. There are saturated areas like NYC, CHI, most/all of CA, and S. FL where there are a ton of hacks that siphon off cases and then do a really poor job. Well trained neuropsychologists can do well in most settings, but students often over-estimate their abilities and believe they can be the outliers....but statistics teach us.....that's not as likely to happen.

 

[deleted343839]

now that I did not know. That would make the LCSW practically pointless in terms of being able to work part time while in school, sigh. If money were no object I would just do the PhD but I’m trying to be practical because I know there’s no one I can financially count on but myself.

You can live on a stipend, just not lavishly. Honestly not even very comfortably depending on locale. But after the first couple of years of school, it tends to lighten up a little and many people find ways to make income on the side.

for people who are practicing at PhD level do you atleast feel financially stable with a good amount of autonomy

If it helps, I have never grossed less than $100K plus health insurance and retirement contributions in any full-time position since postdoc.

I even noticed in college that professors seem to now be in the trenches. This semester you see them,next semester you don’t. There were professors teaching at 3 different colleges nowhere close to each other, counties away!

Adjunct life sucks and I don't recommend it.

 

[Sanman]

It is also pretty specific work. There are a lot of people who are drawn to psychology to provide therapy and whatnot, though those people don't tend to be a great fit for neuropsych. It's not that neuropsych ppl can't also offer therapy, but it is just not common for a range of reasons including financial but also area of interest.

For students reading, it's difficult to do neuropsych, it can't be done "on the side", there are numerous hurdles to jump over to do it right, and competition is usually pretty stiff at each level of the process. It's also not the panacea that some students think, as the day to day work can be challenging for different reasons than for people who do mostly/all therapy. There is often a forensic component and you are far more likely to have to deal with lawyers. There is also a heavy reliance on research and stats. It's not so much "producing" research as it is consuming a lot of articles and using it in the work.

As for the supply v. demand....it is very geographically dependent. There are saturated areas like NYC, CHI, most/all of CA, and S. FL where there are a ton of hacks that siphon off cases and then do a really poor job. Well trained neuropsychologists can do well in most settings, but students often over-estimate their abilities and believe they can be the outliers....but statistics teach us.....that's not as likely to happen.

I will agree with this and add that geographic flexibility is helpful even when in an in-demand specialty. There are markets where experienced clinicians have the good positions and contracts sewn up.