Bachelor of Veterinary Science (BVSc) vs. Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (DVM)

[saratogian]

Hello all,

I am considering applying to Massey for their semester one program (the five year program) that begins in late February next year. The schools looks fabulous, but I was concerned about a couple things. Why do they regard their program as an undergraduate program where you will graduate with a bachelor's in veterinary science? Do people look down on the bachelor's? What is the difference between this and a DVM? I want to be a doctor of something when I finish vet school!

Also, are foreign vet graduates coming back to practice in the states able to find employment equally with the US vet graduates?

I know they are probably the same and I am just being paranoid, but I just wanted to check... Thanks!

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[birdvet2006]

Hello all,

I am considering applying to Massey for their semester one program (the five year program) that begins in late February next year. The schools looks fabulous, but I was concerned about a couple things. Why do they regard their program as an undergraduate program where you will graduate with a bachelor's in veterinary science? Do people look down on the bachelor's? What is the difference between this and a DVM? I want to be a doctor of something when I finish vet school!

Also, are foreign vet graduates coming back to practice in the states able to find employment equally with the US vet graduates?

I know they are probably the same and I am just being paranoid, but I just wanted to check... Thanks!

You need to read more of the international-school threads. Like Glasgow, RVC, Murdoch. Because this topic has been discussed over and over. In Australia, New Zealand and the UK, students begin vet school straight out of high school. Their high school is higher quality/higher level than the USA's high school, so the students are better prepared for a professional degree. They even start medical school straight from high school. Graduate degree in the UK means PhD or Masters. Nothing else. Only those with a PhD can be called "Doctor".

In the UK and Australia/NZ, human "doctors" do not have a "doctorate" degree and are not called doctors. The same goes for veterinarians and dentists. They go by Mr./Ms./Miss or just by their first names. This still does not make them any less qualified than USA vets, dentists and doctors. It's just a cultural difference. Just because these countries speak English doesn't mean they are at all like the USA.

However, all vets, dentists, and GPs/doctors in the USA are called "doctor". You can legally be called "doctor" here in the USA as long as you are licensed to practice in one of these professions. You CANNOT sign your name and then list a degree that you do not legally have (i.e. DVM). My signature for prescriptions and such is: Cinthia Fulton, BVMS, MRCVS. I can be referred to on medical charts/records as "Dr. Fulton" - it is totally legal, and all the clients are supposed to call me Dr. Fulton. Sometimes they will ask what BVMS means, and I tell them that I graduated in a different country. No problem.

It's really kind of silly to make a big deal out of it. Lots of the professors and specialists at US schools are from schools abroad and have BVSc, BVM&S, BVMS etc. after their names. They are still called doctor and are highly respected as with anyone else who teaches at a vet school.

Everyone I know who has graduated from a foreign vet school (AVMA accredited and also Ross) has had no difficulty finding employment. Me included (currently job hunting for July but think I have found *the* place).

 

[Hollycozza]

Actually in Australia vets and medical doctors feel free to call themselves Dr. And dentists too... Definitely don't need a doctorate to do it here

 

[birdvet2006]

Actually in Australia vets and medical doctors feel free to call themselves Dr. And dentists too... Definitely don't need a doctorate to do it here

Wow, sorry for the assumption they were like the UK. The UK certainly is set in its ways in this respect - they are adamant that they are not to be called doctors.

 

[su_grad2007]

Wow, sorry for the assumption they were like the UK. The UK certainly is set in its ways in this respect - they are adamant that they are not to be called doctors.

Why?

 

[Hollycozza]

because doctors there have to have a doctorate........

(or be medical doctors? They're still called Dr aren't they??? I used to live in Britain but as a kid and I cannot recall)

but yeah, doctorate-less vets don't make the cut.

I like the German system where you accumulate titles. One of my friends has a PhD and is now doing vet, so when she finishes, in Germany, they could call her Doctor Doctor

 

[ratbandit]

For those of you going to schools where the veterinary degree is a bachelors...would you say that more people tend to go on to do a masters or PhD program? I guess there's no way to really know if it is more likely for oversees students to complete their bachelors in vet med and then go on to do more graduate work in the field than those in the states unless you've been a student in both schools. I know that I would be much more likely to go on to research and graduate studies if I had only 5 years of school behind me rather than 8.

 

[birdvet2006]

For those of you going to schools where the veterinary degree is a bachelors...would you say that more people tend to go on to do a masters or PhD program?

No, I can't honestly think of a single person in my class who wanted to go on to further studies. A few of us wanted to do internships. Vets get paid poorly in the UK...and it's not any better to get your Masters or PhD (you'd have to do it for the love of research and/or teaching).

 

[quakk]

No, I can't honestly think of a single person in my class who wanted to go on to further studies. A few of us wanted to do internships. Vets get paid poorly in the UK...and it's not any better to get your Masters or PhD (you'd have to do it for the love of research and/or teaching).

you don't say... rumour here (in oz) has it that the UK is the place to go to get paid well - you get good money, car, house, etc. they're careful to point out that it's not in the major cities, more out in the country, but still. that's what they say.

i would concur regarding additional studies - graduating with a bvms is equivalent to a dvm in the u.s. there's no reason to do any additional studies, unless you like research. the uni here likes its avma accreditation, and they do everything they can to churn out well-rounded, competent veterinary graduates. the navle is an important part of that, and they're setting up training programs designed to prepare graduates to take and pass the navle. guess the main difference here is the distribution of species and diseases we study.

good luck with your job search, cindy. it's great to hear that your internship was worthwhile.

 

[Hollycozza]

you don't say... rumour here (in oz) has it that the UK is the place to go to get paid well - you get good money, car, house, etc. they're careful to point out that it's not in the major cities, more out in the country, but still. that's what they say.
.

Then again I think vets are VERY well paid in the UK compared to here in Australia! Vets seem to be better paid in lots of other countries than Australia.

Good thing we have a lot less debt though too (for locals... internationals I guess probably mostly go home to higher pay to pay off their vast debts......)

 

[Mr. McDuck]

Urm, I was on this forums browsing about veterinary stuff, and I ran across this thread. Medical doctors--i.e., physicians--in the UK and Ireland most definitely call themselves "Doctor". You're thinking of surgeons, who go under the title "Mister" once they enter surgical training. It isn't because of the bachelor's thing, it's out of tradition.

 

[laurafinn]

For those of you going to schools where the veterinary degree is a bachelors...would you say that more people tend to go on to do a masters or PhD program?

Nope. A few do, not many. A master/doctoral degree is not the norm here in NZ for vets, BVSc serves quite well.

 

[birdvet2006]

you don't say... rumour here (in oz) has it that the UK is the place to go to get paid well - you get good money, car, house, etc. they're careful to point out that it's not in the major cities, more out in the country, but still. that's what they say.

Well, consider currency. The UK pound is very very strong. The US dollar is equal to only 50 pence right now (there are 100 pence in a pound)! The Australian dollar is even lower in strength, worth only 0.41 pence. So when you go make your salary in pounds, you are earning more. Oh - the car and housing they provide are usually very cheap. In the US, we really enjoy having a variety of cars (they contribute to our individuality). We don't necessarily want a station wagon ("estate car") that smells like cows all our lives. We also like to say that we own our own property and housing. At least, this is from a Californian's perspective.

When I say the UK vets are paid poorly, I mean that even considering the strength of the pound - it's not the same salary in US dollars. US vets are making $65-100k easily. That would be 32500-50000 pounds. I think most new grads are making about 30k in the UK (pounds)...but I could be wrong. One thing that IS nice about the UK (and probably Oz) is the month-long or more holidays! In the US, 2 weeks per year is the norm.

 

[Hollycozza]

Even just on the dollar comparison the average salary in Australia is poor. Especially the starting salary of AU$37,000, eg US$29000 or about 15,000 pounds...

Sounds like from income vs cost of living the best earnings are in the US....


Two weeks holiday a year is awwwwwful!

 

[cyrille104]

Two weeks holiday a year is awwwwwful!

It is? I thought that was decent

 

[giles]

Actually in Australia vets and medical doctors feel free to call themselves Dr. And dentists too... Definitely don't need a doctorate to do it here

Yep. same in NZ. Medical doctors, dentists and vets are all "Dr".

 

[annichi]

Hi guys,

all your posts are making me more confident about attending a school where I will only graduate with a BVsc....

but my mum has been getting all bent on me not getting a "doctorate" degree... do any of you know whether or not after getting a BVsc, a vet graduate from overseas can somehow attain a DVM? After passing the NAVLE exam, does that not make you a licensed vet in the state you took it in and therefore, a doctorate of veterinary medicine??

really worried about committing myself to a school that will only give me a bachelor's, which i will already have!

 

[nessaf7]

I was wondering about that too actually, because I have seen vets' names with BVSc followed by DVM or I believe there is a professor listed at WCVM who graduated from somewhere in Europe, but has a DVM, and if I remember it said honorary also... not sure what that means!

 

[ebrewha]

I will most likely be accepting my offer to Glasgow and I have had some similar questions.

Specifically - does anyone know the process a Glasgow student would have to go through if they wanted to specialize in surgery in the US after graduation? Will I be able to complete the same "matching" process that US students complete to find internships and eventually residencies in surgery?

Also, do US veterinary surgeons acquire additional acronyms in addition to the DVM or BVSc after their names after passing the surgical boards and becoming a board certified surgeon?

Thanks everyone for the help!

 

[ratbandit]

"It should be noted that titling of first professional degrees in the above-named fields as a "doctorate" is a uniquely American convention that is not utilized in most other countries. In many other countries, the equivalent degree is often a bachelor's or master's degree (for example, Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery, Bachelor of Law). In fact, U.S. law schools used to name their law degree the LL.B (Bachelor of Law) before renaming the degree to J.D. (Doctor of Jurisprudence). Many countries award doctorates only for academic research degrees. For example, in the United Kingdom and many other Commonwealth countries, the Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery is the first professional degree and the M.D. is a research degree reserved for those who have contributed significantly to the academic study of medicine or surgery. This typically involves either a number of publications or a thesis, and is examined in a similar fashion to a Ph.D degree"

I got this from wiki, just thought it was kind of interesting. I would seriously suggest to anybody getting hung up about the letters behind their name to get over it and be proud that your degree represents the awesome school that you went to instead of trying to be like everyone else in the US. Feel free to rip me apart because it's really a sore subject for me and I would actually like to be more empathetic towards the other side of this argument.

 

[kate_g]

After passing the NAVLE exam, does that not make you a licensed vet in the state you took it in and therefore, a doctorate of veterinary medicine??

The diploma is the doctorate. The license is just a license to practice and write prescriptions - granted based on your qualifications (doctorate or bachelor's) and your knowledge as demonstrated on the exam. Getting a license doesn't give you a doctorate degree. And having either the doctorate or the bachelor's gets you called "Dr." in the U.S., license or not! (In the rare cases it's possible to begin practicing without an individual license, e.g. some academic/institutional situations.)

 

[Hollycozza]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

 

[laurafinn]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

Absolutely! Pretty much the only person who will care you have a BVSc and not a DVM is you. If you look on vet school faculties you can usually see a BVSc or two mixed in with the DVM's.

That said, for the person who asked about acronyms, sure, there are a ton you can put after your name if you put enough work into the process

For example:

DABVP
DAVCS
DAVCIM

Note that the D in these stands for diplomate, not doctor.

 

[birdvet2006]

I will most likely be accepting my offer to Glasgow and I have had some similar questions.

Specifically - does anyone know the process a Glasgow student would have to go through if they wanted to specialize in surgery in the US after graduation? Will I be able to complete the same "matching" process that US students complete to find internships and eventually residencies in surgery?

Also, do US veterinary surgeons acquire additional acronyms in addition to the DVM or BVSc after their names after passing the surgical boards and becoming a board certified surgeon?

Thanks everyone for the help!

Just like a graduate from any other AVMA accredited school, you would need to first do an internship (small or large animal rotating medicine AND surgery) after graduating (at least, an internship makes you MUCH more likely to get a residency) - and second, do a residency in surgery. During your residency you conduct the required research and/or case reports and after you finish your residency you take the ACVS (Am. College of Veterinary Surgeons) specialty board examination. If you have completed all these steps to ACVS's satisfaction, you are board certified. Often, you need to pay a certain fee regularly to maintain your board qualifications.

When you are board certified in *any* specialty, you may put this after your name. It would be like: Sam S. Snyder, BVMS, MRCVS, Dipl.ACVS. (Some people will write DACVS instead of Dipl., where D = diplomate).

MRCVS = Member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons. You cannot work as a vet in the UK without this qualification. You gain this qualification by passing your UK vet school final exams, paying the registration fee, and participating in a special ceremony (the "swearing in"). Americans and others can join the RCVS, by a different method. You have to pay your registration fee annually, and the fee is reduced if you practice overseas.