Backing out of a Contract

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anny44

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I signed an attending contract today and regret my decision. Can I back out the same day without repercussions since it's same day ?
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Does the contract say anything about termination? Have they given you any money yet? I doubt much will come out of deciding to back out of a contract aside from making some people angry, which might or might not be a big deal.
 
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Honestly, they'll probably be angry for a second and then immediately thereafter exceedingly pleased to have you as far away from them as possible.
 
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Tomorrow's thread: Guys how do I back out of the backing out of a contract I did today?
 
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Why are you having second thoughts right after signing the contract? Unless there's something newly emergent that just came up right after you signed, I'd strongly consider seeing your contract through. Medicine is a small world, particularly if you are looking to settle in a specific city or state. Also, if you don't take this job, do you already have another one lined up? Your current boss will likely not be too excited about enthusiastically recommending you for another position, especially if they stuck their neck out to help you get this one.

It might help us give you more specific advice if you gave us some info about what the issue is with this job. But short of some type of personal/family emergency, I can't think of too many situations where breaking a contract that you voluntarily signed is the better option in the long term.
 
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anny44 said:
I signed an attending contract today and regret my decision. Can I back out the same day without repercussions since it's same day ?
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Once you have a contract, backing out contrary to the terms will be a breach and the other side may incur damages that you are on the hook for. There is no "same day" exception. As mentioned, is there a termination provision and can you legally terminate immediately and without notice (doubtful)? Does the contract specify what damages, attorneys fees etc you might be liable for in a breach of contract situation? The company may not care if they had ample backup applicants/CVs for the job, but it's also not inconceivable that if you leave abruptly and in breach, the place may need to spend thousands of dollars finding a suitable replacement and you could be on the hook for those damages.
 
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It's interesting how peoples advice range from good and appropriate (make sure you don't want this job before backing out) to horrible advice (suck it up and stick with the job). That last advice (suck it up bro) (i'd strongly suggest seeing your contract through) is one of the most ******ed I've heard. Of course you shouldn't stick with a job after you've decided you don't want it especially if it's before you started where the ramifications are minor.

BTW I did talk with one of the leading physician contract attorneys in my state regarding this issue and he said it was a non-issue, especially if you've backed out very quickly. If they take me to court the judge will just throw it out. Please stop giving stupid advice if you don't know what you're talking about. It's much better to exit a job before you start than quitting once you've already started.

Also reneging on contracts happens routinely (both from the experience of hiring chairs, the peers in my field, and per 2 physician contract attorneys I spoke with). This almost never leads to a law suit and if it does the only damages they can obtain is the difference in price between a locum and my fee (which would be negligible).
 
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sb247 said:
So your word means nothing?
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In a court of law, my words means nothing. That's the only thing that can affect me and that I would care about.
 
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anny44 said:
In a court of law, my words mean nothing. That's the only thing I'm concerned with.
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It's interesting that you edited out your original response of "are you 12?" as though honesty only matters to children
 
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sb247 said:
It's interesting that you edited out your original response of "are you 12?" as though honesty only matters to children
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You're mentally pretty young and have things to learn. Continue to spend your time arguing with random people about terrorism on the internet.
 
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anny44 said:
You're mentally pretty young and have things to learn. Continue to spend your time arguing with random people about terrorism on the internet.
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You find an expectation of integrity to be childish?
 
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sb247 said:
You find an expectation of integrity to be childish?
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I find your attitude towards employers and health-care coorporations extremely naive. They wouldn't give 2 sh.its about you or their previous spoken word to you and will try to screw you out of every dollar they can get away with. In the real world things are different than your interactions with your friends and parents. I'm curious, are you a medical student?
 
anny44 said:
I find your attitude towards employers and health-care coorporations extremely naive. They wouldn't give 2 sh.its about you or their previous spoken word to you and will try to screw you out of every dollar they can get out of you. In the real world things are different than your interactions with your friends and parents. I'm curious, are you a medical student?
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I'm a student who in a prior life personally negotiated and awarded 9 digits worth of labor and material contracts. I'm not remotely under the impression that hospitals are trustworthy.

I'm asking why you are ok with not being trustworthy...
 
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sb247 said:
I'm a student who in a prior life personally negotiated and awarded 9 digits worth of labor and material contracts. I'm not remotely under the impression that hospitals are trustworthy.

I'm asking why you are ok with not being trustworthy...
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Because I'm interacting with an untrustworthy entity. I'm living in the real world and not in the movies. I'm guessing your a big fan of braveheart. LOL
 
anny44 said:
That last advice (suck it up bro) (i'd strongly suggest seeing your contract through) is one of the most ******ed I've heard.
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You started this thread to ask if you could back out of the contract. The possible responses you could have expected would be 'no,' 'yes but you shouldn't,' and 'yes and go for it.' If you feel one or two of these are 'the most ******ed' things you've ever heard, then I wonder why you bothered starting this thread. You have access to the greatest lawyer ever, so why would you even think of asking us?

Can you help me make sense of your rather angry reaction to responses to a thread you seemingly had no reason to start?
 
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anny44 said:
...
BTW I did talk with one of the leading physician contract attorneys in my state regarding this issue and he said it was a non-issue, especially if you've backed out very quickly. If they take me to court the judge will just throw it out. Please stop giving stupid advice if you don't know what you're talking about. It's much better to exit a job before you start than quitting once you've already started.

Also reneging on contracts happens routinely (both from the experience of hiring chairs, the peers in my field, and per 2 physician contract attorneys I spoke with). This almost never leads to a law suit and if it does the only damages they can obtain is the difference in price between a locum and my fee (which would be negligible).
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Um no. You asked if you can break a contract without repercussions. Legally the answer is probably not, and certainly not a certainty. Your contract may specify damages for breach, and places can incur damages if they find themselves short handed or need to perform a search for a new attending thanks to your breach. You might be easily replaceable but you might not - we don't know enough about you or the position to assess that.

No judge will "just throw [a] case out" if there's a contract, evidence you breached it, and the other party can assert that they reasonably incurred damages making themselves whole. That's not how our legal system works. Saying reneging on contracts "happens all the time" is irrelevant - people risk being sued in many of those settings and your question was about liability/consequences not whether there are people who run risks. saying "this almost never leads to a lawsuit" though perhaps true, kind of misses the point of your original question. You didn't ask how likely it was that you'd be sued, just if you could get out of the deal Scott free. Again, possibly not.

As for saying the damages would be the difference between you and a locum employee, that's not really the case. If they are hiring an attending of certain credentials and qualifications for a full time employment, that's what they get to try and replace you with. No court is going to equate that to a cheaper part time option -- they get to be made whole - what they bargained for. If that takes them two months and a hefty headhunter service fee, that's their reasonable damages and you could theoretically be on the hook for that, depending on what the contract says.

You apparently posted to try and get people to tell you what you wanted the answer to be, not what it actually is. That's not the way advice works. The short answer is that there are always potential consequences when you renege on a contract, and any lawyer who tells you otherwise is not a "leading" contract attorney in any state. (More likely you just made him up.)
 
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Law2Doc said:
Um no. You asked if you can break a contract without repercussions. Legally the answer is probably not, and certainly not a certainty. Your contract may specify damages for breach, and places can incur damages if they find themselves short handed or need to perform a search for a new attending thanks to your breach. You might be easily replaceable but you might not - we don't know enough about you or the position to assess that.

No judge will "just throw [a] case out" if there's a contract, evidence you breached it, and the other party can assert that they reasonably incurred damages making themselves whole. That's not how our legal system works. Saying reneging on contracts "happens all the time" is irrelevant - people risk being sued in many of those settings and your question was about liability/consequences not whether there are people who run risks. saying "this almost never leads to a lawsuit" though perhaps true, kind of misses the point of your original question. You didn't ask how likely it was that you'd be sued, just if you could get out of the deal Scott free. Again, possibly not.

As for saying the damages would be the difference between you and a locum employee, that's not really the case. If they are hiring an attending of certain credentials and qualifications for a full time employment, that's what they get to try and replace you with. No court is going to equate that to a cheaper part time option -- they get to be made whole - what they bargained for. If that takes them two months and a hefty headhunter service fee, that's their reasonable damages and you could theoretically be on the hook for that, depending on what the contract says.

You apparently posted to try and get people to tell you what you wanted the answer to be, not what it actually is. That's not the way advice works. The short answer is that there are always potential consequences when you renege on a contract, and any lawyer who tells you otherwise is not a "leading" contract attorney in any state. (More likely you just made him up.)
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As two attorneys with more knowledge and experience than you stated that you are wrong, I'd rather go with what they said and state that you are wrong. I posted this prior to my contact with said attorneys. Law2Doc I did not make him up and you shouldn't accuse one of making stuff up. Your knowledge of law is very limited despite your name so why don't you go shove it.
 
hamstergang said:
You started this thread to ask if you could back out of the contract. The possible responses you could have expected would be 'no,' 'yes but you shouldn't,' and 'yes and go for it.' If you feel one or two of these are 'the most ******ed' things you've ever heard, then I wonder why you bothered starting this thread. You have access to the greatest lawyer ever, so why would you even think of asking us?

Can you help me make sense of your rather angry reaction to responses to a thread you seemingly had no reason to start?
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I didn't seek ******ed advice and this thread was made prior to contact with said attorneys. Someone can say jump off a cliff. I'd reply that that's a ******ed answer.
 
anny44 said:
As two attorneys with more knowledge and experience than you stated that you are wrong, I'd rather go with what they said and state that you are wrong. I posted this prior to my contact with said attorneys. Law2Doc I did not make him up and you shouldn't accuse one of making stuff up. Your knowledge of law is very limited despite your name so why don't you go shove it.
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Yeah good luck with that. Troll no more.
 
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Law2Doc said:
Yeah good luck with that. Troll no more.
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Do you just come to random threads, give them horrible advice, then when they say you're wrong call them Trolls? I see this in a pattern of your advice and postings.

When you reneg an employment contract quickly it gives you leeway with both the employer and the law.

Some here did give good advice like the aprogdirector, others like you give bad advice and are probably as.sholes in real life.
 
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anny44 said:
Do you just come to random threads, give them horrible advice, then when they say your wrong call them Trolls? I see this in a pattern of your advice and polstings.

Some here did give good advice like the aprogdirector, others like you give bad advice and are probably as.sholes in real life.
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Dude, you asked for legal advice and a lawyer came on your thread and gave you some. The appropriate response is "fantastic - thank you so much!". To be confrontational and insulting to responders is the definition of trolling so I assert you are one. Nothing you've said here makes me question that.
 
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Law2Doc said:
Dude, you asked for legal advice and a lawyer came on your thread and gave you some. The appropriate response is "fantastic - thank you so much!". To be confrontational and insulting to responders is the definition of trolling so I assert you are one. Nothing you've said here makes me question that.
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A lawyer with zero experience in this matter gave bad advice. I'm a doctor but probably shouldn't be doing any brain surgery. I'm pretty sure the patient won't be thanking me after I mess up their brains. "thank you so much, you just made me paralyzed".
 
anny44 said:
A lawyer with zero experience in this matter gave bad advice. I'm a doctor but probably shouldn't be doing any brain surgery. I'm pretty sure the patient won't be thanking me after I mess up their brains. "thank you so much, you just made me paralyzed".
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Now I doubt that you're even a doctor...
 
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I'm smelling one of these that's so rank it's making my sinuses melt and leak out of my nose:
Internet-Troll.jpg



So you make a post asking a question, then talk to lawyers, hear what you want to hear from them, but then get pissy when you hear what you don't want to hear???
Reported. That's sound you hear is the banhammer being cocked. You'll feel a slight stinging sensation.



anny44 said:
As two attorneys with more knowledge and experience than you stated that you are wrong, I'd rather go with what they said and state that you are wrong. I posted this prior to my contact with said attorneys. Law2Doc I did not make him up and you shouldn't accuse one of making stuff up. Your knowledge of law is very limited despite your name so why don't you go shove it.
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anny44 said:
Do you just come to random threads, give them horrible advice, then when they say you're wrong call them Trolls? I see this in a pattern of your advice and postings.

BTW the employer called me and said good luck in my pursuits. When you reneg an employment contract quickly it gives you leeway with both the employer and the law.

Some here did give good advice like the aprogdirector, others like you give bad advice and are probably as.sholes in real life.
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I'm just an old Professor in one of the basic Sciences, but I think I'd listen to the guy who actually was lawyer before he was a doctor.

Law2Doc said:
Um no. You asked if you can break a contract without repercussions. Legally the answer is probably not, and certainly not a certainty. Your contract may specify damages for breach, and places can incur damages if they find themselves short handed or need to perform a search for a new attending thanks to your breach. You might be easily replaceable but you might not - we don't know enough about you or the position to assess that.

No judge will "just throw [a] case out" if there's a contract, evidence you breached it, and the other party can assert that they reasonably incurred damages making themselves whole. That's not how our legal system works. Saying reneging on contracts "happens all the time" is irrelevant - people risk being sued in many of those settings and your question was about liability/consequences not whether there are people who run risks. saying "this almost never leads to a lawsuit" though perhaps true, kind of misses the point of your original question. You didn't ask how likely it was that you'd be sued, just if you could get out of the deal Scott free. Again, possibly not.

As for saying the damages would be the difference between you and a locum employee, that's not really the case. If they are hiring an attending of certain credentials and qualifications for a full time employment, that's what they get to try and replace you with. No court is going to equate that to a cheaper part time option -- they get to be made whole - what they bargained for. If that takes them two months and a hefty headhunter service fee, that's their reasonable damages and you could theoretically be on the hook for that, depending on what the contract says.

You apparently posted to try and get people to tell you what you wanted the answer to be, not what it actually is. That's not the way advice works. The short answer is that there are always potential consequences when you renege on a contract, and any lawyer who tells you otherwise is not a "leading" contract attorney in any state. (More likely you just made him up.)
Click to expand...
 
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As I've said before I listened to a lawyer who does this for a living. If I had listened to law2docs advice I would have been very nervous about backing out of the contract and may have not done so. As I've stated the employer has already contacted me and said that was it was fine allowing me to pursue the better option.

People should be careful on giving shi.tty advice neelyweely. As a basic science professor you shouldn't be giving any advice or opinion in this matter, honestly neither should medstudents, or anyone who hasn't actually been through the process of reneging a contract.
 
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Raryn said:
:laugh:

This thread is a hoot. Clearly anny doesn't have a serious question and is expert trolling.
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I seriously don't see how any of my comments were trollish. I wanted to see if anyone has personal experience in this matter (I myself have personally known of 2 people who reneged on their contracts). A bunch of medstudents, basic science professors, and people with zero experience on this matter came on this thread and gave their opinions as expert opinion. This irritated me a bit which is why I got peeved.

This is what I learned from my experience which would be useful to folks in the future. If you want to back out of a physician employment contract, do so as early as possible. It is commonly done and is not a big deal.
 
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anny44 said:
I didn't seek ******ed advice and this thread was made prior to contact with said attorneys. Someone can say jump off a cliff. I'd reply that that's a ******ed answer.
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You sort of missed what i was really trying to understand. I get that you started this thread hoping to get advice to go ahead and break the contract, and that you later paid a lawyer to actually tell you that. I can see how you'd be unhappy with the advice given here.

However, I don't get why you'd be angry at the advice given here. Saying that the advice is '******ed' and giving it makes posters 'as.sholes' is quite an overreaction. Something doesn't quite add up here.
 
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hamstergang said:
You sort of missed what i was really trying to understand. I get that you started this thread hoping to get advice to go ahead and break the contract, and that you later paid a lawyer to actually tell you that. I can see how you'd be unhappy with the advice given here.

However, I don't get why you'd be angry at the advice given here. Saying that the advice is '******ed' and giving it makes posters 'as.sholes' is quite an overreaction. Something doesn't quite add up here.
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Telling someone to commit a physician job that they don't want is very very bad advice. Also once you start a job there are all sorts of ramifications (including noncompetes) that you can't get out of. You worked decades to get there so you shouldn't settle for a job because you signed their contract if a better one comes around before you start. Clearly people like sb247 have zero experience in this matter and is just giving his opinions, but people should be quiet when they don't know what they're talking about.
 
anny44 said:
Telling someone to commit a physician job that they don't want is very very bad advice. Also once you start a job there are all sorts of ramifications (including noncompetes) that you can't get out of. You worked decades to get there so you shouldn't settle for a job because you signed their contract if a better one comes around before you start. Clearly people like sb247 have zero experience in this matter and is just giving his opinions, but people should be quiet when they don't know what they're talking about.
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Doesn't want physician job... signs contract to said job
Shouldn't have to settle for a job just because you sign contract... While in said contract you committed to the job
Asks SDN for advice... Pays lawyer for advice anyways then is annoyed because no one on SDN is an experienced lawyer
Flip flopping more than my pancakes this morning
 
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bon22 said:
Doesn't want physician job... signs contract to said job
Shouldn't have to settle for a job just because you sign contract... While in said contract you committed to the job
Asks SDN for advice... Pays lawyer for advice anyways then is annoyed because no one on SDN is an experienced lawyer
Flip flopping more than my pancakes this morning
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-Doesn't want physician job because better one came around same day.
-Shouldn't settle for a job because you worked too hard to get there and signing a contract isn't the end of all things. People can and do get out of physician employment contracts routinely.
-I asked SDN advice to see if anyone had personal experience (as a physician) in this matter. I got upset when people with no experience in this matter where coming off as experts and giving advice that I should settle for the job I don't want after working >14 years after HS to get there.

I hope that clarified things for you.
 
Law2Doc said:
Meh, he was outed before hitting 20 posts. Hardly counts as "expert" trolling. The better trolls go hundreds of posts before lowering the boom.
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There should be a tool where you can ban someone from your thread.
 
Law2Doc said:
Once you have a contract, backing out contrary to the terms will be a breach and the other side may incur damages that you are on the hook for. There is no "same day" exception. As mentioned, is there a termination provision and can you legally terminate immediately and without notice (doubtful)? Does the contract specify what damages, attorneys fees etc you might be liable for in a breach of contract situation? The company may not care if they had ample backup applicants/CVs for the job, but it's also not inconceivable that if you leave abruptly and in breach, the place may need to spend thousands of dollars finding a suitable replacement and you could be on the hook for those damages.
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We recently had a thread that was NOT a troll where someone said this exact thing happened to them - they signed a contract, pulled out early, and had to pay a whole bunch of money. They had all sorts of reasons and were wondering if getting an attorney would get them out of it. Definitely too late once you've resigned. When you have signed a contract the only damage control is getting an attorney ASAP, and at the end of the day you can be out all the same money plus attorney fees.

I don't doubt there are cases where there are no repercussions just because the employer chooses to let it go, just saying we have anecdotal proof this is NOT always the case and while one can always hope, I would never count on it in a case like this.
 
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Crayola227 said:
We recently had a thread that was NOT a troll where someone said this exact thing happened to them - they signed a contract, pulled out early, and had to pay a whole bunch of money. They had all sorts of reasons and were wondering if getting an attorney would get them out of it. Definitely too late once you've resigned. When you have signed a contract the only damage control is getting an attorney ASAP, and at the end of the day you can be out all the same money plus attorney fees.

I don't doubt there are cases where there are no repercussions just because the employer chooses to let it go, just saying we have anecdotal proof this is NOT always the case and while one can always hope, I would never count on it in a case like this.
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The employer can always choose not to enforce his rights. That's very different than suggesting he doesn't have those rights.
 
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Crayola227 said:
We recently had a thread that was NOT a troll where someone said this exact thing happened to them - they signed a contract, pulled out early, and had to pay a whole bunch of money. They had all sorts of reasons and were wondering if getting an attorney would get them out of it. Definitely too late once you've resigned. When you have signed a contract the only damage control is getting an attorney ASAP, and at the end of the day you can be out all the same money plus attorney fees.

I don't doubt there are cases where there are no repercussions just because the employer chooses to let it go, just saying we have anecdotal proof this is NOT always the case and while one can always hope, I would never count on it in a case like this.
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What you are saying is false. I've done a search and no such threads were listed. Most likely you are talking out of your as.s. If not, prove it and point us to said thread.
 
anny44 said:
What you are saying is false. I've done a search and no such threads were listed. Most likely you are talking out of your as.s. If not prove it and point us to said thread.
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Does it sting to know you started so strong and let it fall apart so quickly? You're like the golden state of trolling
 
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