Bad SMP gpa; are my chances ruined?

[fusionnoble]

Hello all! Just trying to lay out some thoughts here.

I am still hopeful for a career in medicine, but I realize things are looking grim and just wanted some feedback. If I'm being honest, I'll probably still apply, and continue to for a little while regardless of what's said in this thread, but I recognize my chances aren't in my favor and would love to hear some thoughts from people with experience.

Undergrad GPA was around a 3.1 with a slight upward trend with a science GPA closer to 2.9. MCAT is a pretty balanced 511. I am currently enrolled to take some higher level science courses at my alma mater while working full time at the hospital.

Here's the kicker though. I had attended an SMP and did very poorly at a 2.9. I mean the year really sucked, but ultimately I can't make excuses; I should have done better.

I've had people look at my app and basically I keep hearing that everything looks great other than the horrid GPA. Lots of clinical experience (scribing, PCA, volunteering), nonclinical volunteering (church helps a lot with the homeless), leadership, research, tutoring etc. I'm an ORM, but grew up really poor (single immigrant mother working as a waitress) and I think that gave me a pretty compelling story. My letter writers have all been extremely encouraging to me which makes me hope their letters are strong.

I think I'm in a very fortunate situation in that I can sustain myself at a livable wage for now while taking classes for free at my state university I attended in undergrad. I have no doubt I can excel in these classes as I believe I've figured out over the years why my academic performance has been so subpar in the past.

The one semblance of hope I am holding onto is that I applied last cycle and received 2 ii's from DO schools. I ended up being waitlisted and rejected from both, but it made me think I might not be completely DOA. That being said, rejections are still rejections. I am trying to improve the biggest glaring hole in my application, though I know it's often said to be a death sentence so I'm not sure how much getting taking some 5000 level classes are going to help.

What are your thoughts?

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[GreenDuck12]

You said your mcat is unbalanced, what is your breakdown?

 

[fusionnoble]

You said your mcat is unbalanced, what is your breakdown?

Oh I actually said it was pretty balanced; 130/128/126/127 for a 511.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Oh I actually said it was pretty balanced; 130/128/126/127 for a 511.

My bad!

 

[PorkChopsOG]

I know 4 different people who did poorly in an SMP, and none of them could get into medical school after multiple tries. A 2.9 in an just SMP does not look good.

 

[fusionnoble]

I know 4 different people who did poorly in an SMP, and none of them could get into medical school after multiple tries. A 2.9 in an just SMP does not look good.

This take is what I kinda figured and was scared for the most. I have heard a tiny glimmer of hope in taking a second SMP, but I don't think that financially burden is one I could take right now.

To be honest, I was very surprised to even get interviews after doing so poorly in an smp, but there very well might be a time where I need to cut my losses. Unfortunately I may have to be like your friends and try a few more times. I do really appreciate your input though.

 

[DokterMom]

I think I'm in a very fortunate situation in that I can sustain myself at a livable wage for now while taking classes for free at my state university I attended in undergrad. I have no doubt I can excel in these classes as I believe I've figured out over the years why my academic performance has been so subpar in the past.

You say you think you figured out why you did so poorly. So why?

Your track record suggests you're a bright person who doesn't do well in school, and that's not the picture you want to paint.

 

[GreenDuck12]

This is a tough one. The postbac route wouldve been advisable with your current MCAT score prior to the SMP. Had you done that, you would’ve been able to demonstrate academic improvement along with the ability to perform well on high stakes exams. The purpose of the classes are to demonstrate that you could handle the workload and rigors of medical school. The problem is you SMP performance demonstrates the opposite of that. I’m just not sure how a committee would evaluate more recent coursework, even if it is exemplary, as evidence you can succeed in medical school when they can see how you struggled in your SMP. Did you reach out to schools that rejected you post ii for feedback? If so, what did they say?

 

[Osminog]

I generally advise against going to SMP programs. The SMP students at my school who don’t get a 3.5+ generally don’t end up getting into medical school and switch to nursing, podiatry, pharmacy, etc. A DIY post-bacc at a local state school would have gotten the job done, and it would have likely been much less expensive and risky.

Obviously, you can’t time travel and stop yourself from enrolling in the SMP. At this point, your best options are: doing a second SMP at a DO school (ideally with linkage), or applying to SGU. I generally strongly advise against going to the Caribbean—but your options are very limited right now. SGU is the best Caribbean school, and your 511 MCAT indicates that you would likely not get weeded out.

Also, you could shadow a podiatrist and see if podiatric medicine would be a good fit for you.

 

[fusionnoble]

You say you think you figured out why you did so poorly. So why?

Your track record suggests you're a bright person who doesn't do well in school, and that's not the picture you want to paint.

A bit of a few things. Like I mentioned the smp year was particularly rough (mom lost her job, multiple family health issues, car accident I was in which yielded a bunch of legal issues still being dealt with, etc.). It was a lot of immaturity mixed with ego-- not in the sense that I was "too good", but the fear that I wasn't "good enough". It never was a matter of me having trouble understanding things (like how all my friends point people to me when people have like ochem/biochem problems they can't solve even though I got by far the worst grades), but rather just a pure lack of studying and committing/applying myself. I played a lot of games and I guess never really expected to do well academically. Lots of people told me to drop my major (biochem) for something easier, and I regrettably was too stubborn for that.

I did apply myself at least for a few weeks for the MCAT (taken after my smp) which, while isn't superb, I think it does speak at least a little about my ability. I completed accept the fact that if I'm not able to ace this current course load (8 credits) while working full time, then I have literally zero shot at medical school, but I'm, for the first time, confident I will apply myself and do well.

Mental health was a pretty big issue, but I've since talked to my physician about it, gotten some treatment, and I feel much more stable nowadays.

Thank you for taking the time to read my post; please let me know what you think!

For anyone reading, this is why SMPs are high risk, high reward. Several of my classmates entered with 504+/3.5 from undergrad and bombed the SMP and ruined their chances because they did not want to apply DO. Did you have a 511 before starting the SMP? A 2.9 sGPA from undergrad isn't the end of the world and it might have been better to do a DIY-post bacc and get it >3.0 and could have gotten you into a newer DO school.

If you do end up doing a second SMP make sure to do one with linkage otherwise it'll be a tough sell. Still possible, but financially and mentally stressful. Best of luck

I absolutely agree. I dove into that SMP when I was directionless and didn't know what to do with my life after I expectedly did not get a single ii my first cycle. Prior to starting my SMP I got a 509, but this was like my second year of undergrad. It expired so I retook it and got a 511. I think I can still apply next year with this score, but I have reason to believe I can get my MCAT much higher if it comes down to it, years in the future, since it isn't the big glaring hole in my application.

Like I mentioned above, financially I don't think I, or my family, could bear a second SMP right now. I'm very grateful for not having any debt from undergrad, but that one year getting that master's buried me. I think I'm beyond lucky right now that I can take classes for free once again.

I understand I'm going to end up looking like a poster child for why people shouldn't dive into SMP's, but I really, really hope my story does not end here. I appreciate for the wish for good luck!

This is a tough one. The postbac route wouldve been advisable with your current MCAT score prior to the SMP. Had you done that, you would’ve been able to demonstrate academic improvement along with the ability to perform well on high stakes exams. The purpose of the classes are to demonstrate that you could handle the workload and rigors of medical school. The problem is you SMP performance demonstrates the opposite of that. I’m just not sure how a committee would evaluate more recent coursework, even if it is exemplary, as evidence you can succeed in medical school when they can see how you struggled in your SMP. Did you reach out to schools that rejected you post ii for feedback? If so, what did they say?

Is it bad that I find hope that it's even a tough one? I get a lot of "bad SMP = DOA, end of discussion" from my peers, but hopefully this means I'm not literally hopeless.

I completely agree I went the wrong path here; like I just mentioned in the second part of this current post, I blindly went into SMP out of undergrad and I regret it. More so of course, I regret not knocking the SMP out of the park. It was a rough year (family health issues, mom losing her job, etc. I actually starved myself to pinch pennies, lost about 40 pounds, and then totaled my car which costs way more than any amount of eating properly would), but I can't make excuses for myself. I just want to focus on what I CAN do, so I'm hoping these 5000 level classes can at least attest to my academic potential at least a little.

I have not yet reached out to the schools that rejected me (I just got the "we aren't taking off the waitlist anymore" emails this week). Earlier in the cycle I had talked to a few schools that rejected me and the big surprise statement they said was that my gpa was not good. Thank you for the idea and your post though! I really appreciate you taking time to look at my thoughts and sharing yours.

I generally advise against going to SMP programs. The SMP students at my school who don’t get a 3.5+ generally don’t end up getting into medical school and switch to nursing, podiatry, pharmacy, etc. A DYI post-bacc at a local state school would have gotten the job done, and it would have likely been much less expensive and risky.

Obviously, you can’t time travel and stop yourself from enrolling in the SMP. At this point, your best options are: doing a second SMP at a DO school (ideally with linkage), or applying to SGU. I generally strongly advise against going to the Caribbean—but your options are very limited right now. SGU is the best Caribbean school, and your 511 MCAT indicates that you would likely not get weeded out.

Also, you could shadow a podiatrist and see if podiatric medicine would be a good fit for you.

I completely agree with you. I should absolutely not have dived into my SMP as blind as I did straight out of undergrad as the confused kid I was. And thank you for looking at potential options from the future for me; maybe I can hope to build a time machine more affordably than a second smp lol. I know I might get flamed for saying this on SDN, but I have considered Caribbean. I already have what should be a DOA-mark on my application and if this comes down to my absolute final option, I might have to give it a shot. I'm thinking of at least holding off while I try this flawed gpa repair tactic I have going right now, but like you said I do feel strongly that I would not get weeded out there.

I have actually shadowed a podiatrist! Unfortunately I do not feel it would be an ideal fit for me for a few reasons. If there ends of being a zero chance of medical school for me, I have a few other healthcare options I would like to consider ahead of podiatry, like PA for instance. That being said, my gpa is nowhere near competitive for even that, so I know I still have work to do.

 

[fusionnoble]

Wow, thank you to everyone reading and replying to my thread; I really appreciate it.

I hope my replies to your posts shed a bit more light on my current thoughts, and I would love to hear any thoughts as to what my best course of action might be, or even if my current one is okay.

 

[MedDoc305]

mom lost her job, multiple family health issues, car accident I was in which yielded a bunch of legal issues still being dealt with, etc.). It was a lot of immaturity mixed with ego-- not in the sense that I was "too good", but the fear that I wasn't "good enough". It never was a matter of me having trouble understanding things (like how all my friends point people to me when people have like ochem/biochem problems they can't solve even though I got by far the worst grades), but rather just a pure lack of studying and committing/applying myself. I played a lot of games and I guess never really expected to do well academically. Lots of people told me to drop my major (biochem) for something easier, and I regrettably was too stubborn for that.

I did apply myself at least for a few weeks for the MCAT (taken after my smp) which, while isn't superb, I think it does speak at least a little about my ability. I completed accept the fact that if I'm not able to ace this current course load (8 credits) while working full time, then I have literally zero shot at medical school, but I'm, for the first time, confident I will apply myself and do well.

Though a 511 is impressive for DO schools, since you say you only studied for a few weeks to obtain that 511, if you think studying for a few months can yield a much higher score then that, it would help mitigate the damages done to your GPA. Of course, this would need to be done while still taking upper-level science courses to try and show that you can handle the rigours of med school.
The only other option I see is to do an SMP at a DO/MD that has direct linkage. VCOM, LECOM, PCOM-PA, PCOM-GA, NOVA, Drexel and Temple come to mind for direct admission.

 

[fusionnoble]

Though a 511 is impressive for DO schools, since you say you only studied for a few weeks to obtain that 511, if you think studying for a few months can yield a much higher score then that, it would help mitigate the damages done to your GPA. Of course, this would need to be done while still taking upper-level science courses to try and show that you can handle the rigours of med school.
The only other option I see is to do an SMP at a DO/MD that has direct linkage. VCOM, LECOM, PCOM-PA, PCOM-GA, NOVA, Drexel and Temple come to mind for direct admission.

I know there are so many premeds on here who all say they believe hypothetically that they can score higher than they did on the MCAT, and unfortunately I belong to that group too. I guess I need to walk the walk to even have a shot though.

Thank you for your thoughts. I'll take classes and reapply, though I will keep in mind the thought of either a) improving my MCAT to prove myself like you said, or b) maybe try out a second SMP. LECOM is one of the schools that waitlisted (then rejected) me this past cycle, and their "affordable" tuition is very appealing so I might end up looking into that for the future.

At least for now though, I'll work on finishing my apps this cycle, and doing my best in the classes I'm enrolled in for this semester.

 

[GreenDuck12]

I would not recommend retaking the mcat unless it expires. A 511 is a strong score. I’m not surprised to hear that GPA was an issue, perhaps getting over the 3.0 cutoff would be beneficial. I would consider taking several semesters of classes for sustained academic achievement.

 

[fusionnoble]

I'm risk-averse so I wouldn't retake a 511 if it were me. The best thing you can do is get feedback from those schools. I know people with >3.7 GPAs who went from 507-513 (~5 point jumps etc) and I've also seen some get +/- 2 (still around a 510) but not a significant increase after studying for 3+ months for a retake. In your case, you could psyche yourself out during the exam and possibly drop lower since you mentioned dealing with mental health whereas someone with a 3.7+ would be more relaxed going into it and still not making a HUGE jump. AAMC data shows most retakes are around the same. I'd focus your application for DO schools. ~10% (will have to look up exact number) have a 511+ so you'll definitely stand out there but the GPA might need some improvement based on the feedback you get.

I would not recommend retaking the mcat unless it expires. A 511 is a strong score. I’m not surprised to hear that GPA was an issue, perhaps getting over the 3.0 cutoff would be beneficial. I would consider taking several semesters of classes for sustained academic achievement.

Ahh I'm kinda glad to get some conflicting advice since that means people are really putting thought into helping me, so I very grateful.

I took my MCAT 1/2019, so I guess my current thoughts are to take classes for awhile while applying this year and next (how many personal statements can one man write lol). And if things still aren't looking great at that point I'll consider taking it again then since it'll expire.

In terms of mental health, I never had any sort of testing anxiety; in fact, big tests were when I felt most comfortable. Undergrad was a lot of me doing poorly on smaller quizzes/homework/midterms, acing the final, and ending with a C. I always excelled with critical thinking, and did terribly with things that take time outside the classroom (like memorization). That being said, since my MCAT is not expired and not the weak point of my app, it makes sense to hold off on retaking it until I have to.

Thank you both for your continued thoughts.

For anyone else tuning in, I guess I'm still considering a few options.
a) the path I'm on now of taking more upper level undergrad courses (DIY postbacc) while working full time in a hospital
b) second smp (though money is an issue)
c) other options (like PA, or even going the RN -> NP route)
d) Caribbean

At the least, I hope I'm not going down a stupid path right now by taking more classes even with a botched smp, while continuing to apply.

 

[futureapppsy2]

Here’s a poster who did similarly poorly in an SMP, did well in another SMP, and subsequently got into med school, FWIW:

thinking of waving the white flag

well, this app season did not go well for me. basically when i called all of them to find out what to do to better my chances, i was told the same thing...raise my cum gpa. to do that is virtually impossible given i have a combined close to 300 credit hrs between grad and undergrad, so even...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[GreenDuck12]

You mentioned reapplying this year: what changed from your application last year to this year?

My advice about the mcat is consistent with the previous poster’s advice. An expired mcat necessitates a retake.

I vote against option D. The risks are simply too high to accept and the idea of being saddled with debt and a degree but unable to practice medicine is terrifying. I have a friend I did my postbac with who went that route as a more expedient way to be a doctor instead of improving their app - no word yet on how it will work out but their debt is expected to be

 

[fusionnoble]

Here’s a poster who did similarly poorly in an SMP, did well in another SMP, and subsequently got into med school, FWIW:

thinking of waving the white flag

well, this app season did not go well for me. basically when i called all of them to find out what to do to better my chances, i was told the same thing...raise my cum gpa. to do that is virtually impossible given i have a combined close to 300 credit hrs between grad and undergrad, so even...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Thank you for that; it does bring me hope. I think it's interesting it was at Midwestern, which is where I did my SMP. This path has already been a lot longer than I anticipated, though I don't want to give up just yet!

You mentioned reapplying this year: what changed from your application last year to this year?

My advice about the mcat is consistent with the previous poster’s advice. An expired mcat necessitates a retake.

I vote against option D. The risks are simply too high to accept and the idea of being saddled with debt and a degree but unable to practice medicine is terrifying. I have a friend I did my postbac with who went that route as a more expedient way to be a doctor instead of improving their app - no word yet on how it will work out but their debt is expected to be

I have a few smaller changes in my application, but honestly nothing major. It came down to some of my peers encouraging me to reapply because I was "so close" since I had received multiple (albeit 2) interviews from schools that obviously saw something more in me than my gpa (I'm guessing MCAT and my story), and did not get immediately rejected after the interview. While I don't think I'm a bad interviewer (not that anyone can know how good they themselves are), I couldn't help but imagine if I had knocked either out of the park, they would have accepted me (why else would they invite me after all).

That being said, since applying last cycle I've done a a few things. I continued to scribe in primary care for some time, then moved to my current job as a PCA to get more direct patient care opportunities. I have been tutoring several kids, especially since COVID changed school. I am in a leadership position in my church (Worship Director) and we've been pastorless for the past several months so I've been doing my best to keep my ministry in the best shape possible (and finally had an excuse to put my home studio to use lol). I've also met some people, like a DO letter writer that I actually transported as a patient at my job now and is currently helping me shape up my personal statement to ship out soon.

I know none of those are huge, nor do they address my biggest issue. I was hoping maybe I could get an interview this cycle too, and update them with good transcripts along the way. I know it's wishful thinking, but I wanted to put my all into it, and be prepared to reapply next cycle with an improved gpa if I don't luck out this cycle.

I promise I will stay away from international schools for the next years at least. May I ask what your continued thoughts are now?

 

[fusionnoble]

I have very similar numbers as you. 2.8 SMP (straight C's) with high mcat (512 then 514). I was accepted to DO school two cycles later and received multiple DO interviews on my last reapp. You will get in if you show persistence and continue to improve your app. I added some community volunteering and shadowed two DOs in primary care and received LOR from them. Good luck dawg you got this.

Thank you so so much; this is super inspiring to hear! Congrats on your path. I'll try to do as you said and persist a little longer.

Like you said, the second smp option just looks dangerously expensive right now, but I'll keep it as a real option for the future. I'm actually from Ohio so the Toledo thing is especially cool. That being said, I really want to go into primary care and would be completely happy at a DO school.

I understand you're probably an outlier, but it's so reassuring to hear it just might be possible. Thank you for your reply; I'm sure you understand how much it means to have a bit of hope in a situation like this.

 

[Goro]

Hello all! Just trying to lay out some thoughts here.

I am still hopeful for a career in medicine, but I realize things are looking grim and just wanted some feedback. If I'm being honest, I'll probably still apply, and continue to for a little while regardless of what's said in this thread, but I recognize my chances aren't in my favor and would love to hear some thoughts from people with experience.

Undergrad GPA was around a 3.1 with a slight upward trend with a science GPA closer to 2.9. MCAT is a pretty balanced 511. I am currently enrolled to take some higher level science courses at my alma mater while working full time at the hospital.

Here's the kicker though. I had attended an SMP and did very poorly at a 2.9. I mean the year really sucked, but ultimately I can't make excuses; I should have done better.

I've had people look at my app and basically I keep hearing that everything looks great other than the horrid GPA. Lots of clinical experience (scribing, PCA, volunteering), nonclinical volunteering (church helps a lot with the homeless), leadership, research, tutoring etc. I'm an ORM, but grew up really poor (single immigrant mother working as a waitress) and I think that gave me a pretty compelling story. My letter writers have all been extremely encouraging to me which makes me hope their letters are strong.

I think I'm in a very fortunate situation in that I can sustain myself at a livable wage for now while taking classes for free at my state university I attended in undergrad. I have no doubt I can excel in these classes as I believe I've figured out over the years why my academic performance has been so subpar in the past.

The one semblance of hope I am holding onto is that I applied last cycle and received 2 ii's from DO schools. I ended up being waitlisted and rejected from both, but it made me think I might not be completely DOA. That being said, rejections are still rejections. I am trying to improve the biggest glaring hole in my application, though I know it's often said to be a death sentence so I'm not sure how much getting taking some 5000 level classes are going to help.

What are your thoughts?

I can't sugar coat this, your medical career is over. I', not saying this to piss in your cornflakes, nor will I tell you whatyou want to hear, but what you need to hear.

You had the chance to prove yourself in med school-lite, and you didn't succeed. Your struggles were a predictor that you'd struggle badly in med school, which will be 3-5x harder than your SMP.

You received IIs because the schools were hoping that you would do well in the SMP.

Though a 511 is impressive for DO schools, since you say you only studied for a few weeks to obtain that 511, if you think studying for a few months can yield a much higher score then that, it would help mitigate the damages done to your GPA.

A high MCAT doesn't remediate a weak GPA; it only accentuates the disparity.

Suggestions that you go to the Carib are outright malicious. You're very mark that they salivate over, because weeding out struggling students is their business model.

And yes, there are people who bomb one SMP, and then get into med school after aceing a second, but these are outliers.

Podiatry might be doable, but I recommend nursing.

You do have a compelling life story, but no med school is doing you any favors by admitting you when you're in such a red flag risk zone.

 

[ciestar]

Ahh I'm kinda glad to get some conflicting advice since that means people are really putting thought into helping me, so I very grateful.

I took my MCAT 1/2019, so I guess my current thoughts are to take classes for awhile while applying this year and next (how many personal statements can one man write lol). And if things still aren't looking great at that point I'll consider taking it again then since it'll expire.

In terms of mental health, I never had any sort of testing anxiety; in fact, big tests were when I felt most comfortable. Undergrad was a lot of me doing poorly on smaller quizzes/homework/midterms, acing the final, and ending with a C. I always excelled with critical thinking, and did terribly with things that take time outside the classroom (like memorization). That being said, since my MCAT is not expired and not the weak point of my app, it makes sense to hold off on retaking it until I have to.

Thank you both for your continued thoughts.

For anyone else tuning in, I guess I'm still considering a few options.
a) the path I'm on now of taking more upper level undergrad courses (DIY postbacc) while working full time in a hospital
b) second smp (though money is an issue)
c) other options (like PA, or even going the RN -> NP route)
d) Caribbean

At the least, I hope I'm not going down a stupid path right now by taking more classes even with a botched smp, while continuing to apply.

RN to NP is the most viable. Average PA GPA is way above your’s.

Dont go carib. Dont retake that MCAT because if you do and do worse, you’re 100% finished.

I sympathize with your situation, but you should have withdrawn. S*** hit the fan with me first year of med school and it was an absolute disaster.

Basically to get into med school you have to prove you can do well. The SMP is the best way to do this and you didnt. Med school is also a lot of memorization.

 

[DokterMom]

The only chance for redemption I see is going to be time.

Lots of time.

Like five years -- which is enough time to study for and begin succeeding in an entirely new career in nursing or a different allied health field.

Why so long? Well, your reasons for doing poorly just aren't good enough... Life will continue to throw obstacles in your path -- sickness, unemployment, deaths in the family. You'll need to be able to handle them. You also mentioned mental health issues and immaturity. Those are big, big issues and are the most common reasons people drop out of medical school. You need to absolutely master those problems and demonstrate that you have.

After you've done that for five years, you can then make the argument that FutureYou is not the same person as PastYou, as evidenced by the strong and consistent strong track record you will have been carefully building during those five years. Taking 1-2 upper-level science courses at a time while you wait might be a good idea.

At that point - and emphatically not before - you could reapply and might entice someone to take a chance on you.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

OP, you still haven't demonstrated you can handle high level coursework. You need to be able to demonstrate that to have a chance at admission. Your good MCAT score after a few weeks of studying indicates you have good test taking skills and you are bright. It also indicates to me that you were lazy and didnt put the time in to master the courses you were taking. Bright and lazy is a bad combination for a doctor and would not be the doctor I would choose. I think a DIY post bac and nailing it might be your best chance. You would also have to prove to me that this lazy streak is gone. Just my 2 cents
Sorry if I was blunt. Good luck and best wishes.

 

[Damson]

RN to NP is the most viable. Average PA GPA is way above your’s.

Dont go carib. Dont retake that MCAT because if you do and do worse, you’re 100% finished.

I sympathize with your situation, but you should have withdrawn. S*** hit the fan with me first year of med school and it was an absolute disaster.

Basically to get into med school you have to prove you can do well. The SMP is the best way to do this and you didnt. Med school is also a lot of memorization.

uh what happened first year?

 

[ciestar]

uh what happened first year?

Well... my mom almost died my first month. She ended up with long QT due to a medication, had to be resuscitated and in ICU and subsequently ended up with DTs while there. Then... my depression was so profound I lost 30 lbs. Yada yada yada, more family stuff, deaths in my husband’s family...

 

[Damson]

@fusionnoble To expand on @Osminog 's suggestion to look overseas, I suggest looking into all MBBS and MD programs in Australia if you're prepared to live there. Some schools have admissions algorithms that will work with your profile.

I may be wrong here, but for some Australian schools, international applicants (US) holding a Masters or PhD degree are automatically assigned the highest score in its GPA ranking process. Regardless of the actual GPA earned during the graduate program.

You'll have to verify this because again I'm not sure. But if true, you will definitely get interviewed and get in somewhere due to your MCAT.

 

[Damson]

Well... my mom almost died my first month. She ended up with long QT due to a medication, had to be resuscitated and in ICU and subsequently ended up with DTs while there. Then... my depression was so profound I lost 30 lbs. Yada yada yada, more family stuff, deaths in my husband’s family...

oh holy ****. I commend you for pulling through and becoming a doctor anyway.

 

[fusionnoble]

I can't sugar coat this, your medical career is over. I', not saying this to piss in your cornflakes, nor will I tell you whatyou want to hear, but what you need to hear.

You had the chance to prove yourself in med school-lite, and you didn't succeed. Your struggles were a predictor that you'd struggle badly in med school, which will be 3-5x harder than your SMP.

You received IIs because the schools were hoping that you would do well in the SMP.

Though a 511 is impressive for DO schools, since you say you only studied for a few weeks to obtain that 511, if you think studying for a few months can yield a much higher score then that, it would help mitigate the damages done to your GPA.

A high MCAT doesn't remediate a weak GPA; it only accentuates the disparity.

Suggestions that you go to the Carib are outright malicious. You're very mark that they salivate over, because weeding out struggling students is their business model.

And yes, there are people who bomb one SMP, and then get into med school after aceing a second, but these are outliers.

Podiatry might be doable, but I recommend nursing.

You do have a compelling life story, but no med school is doing you any favors by admitting you when you're in such a red flag risk zone.

Thank you very much for the response Goro! The only thing I'd like to point out is that the year I applied was well after my SMP; they were not hoping I would do well, but rather they already saw that I had not done well a few years ago. This is the reason I had that tiny amount of hope; if for whatever reason they or another school decided to interview me in the future, maybe I would have a shot.

I know I'm so far from being a star applicant and I really appreciate the honesty. I think I'll spend this year applying, reconsidering, and seeing if this gpa "repair" I have planned will open up any doors to any sort of future in healthcare for me.

I'm not opposed to nursing, which I do see as a potential path for me to take in the years to come, I would prefer that route over podiatry in fact. I think I'll take some time on this though for right now.

Sorry, I know I sound like the stereotypical hopeless but hopeful premed, and I really do appreciate and value your input. Maybe I just need further proof that my chances are literally zero. May I ask if you still think I'm foolish for holding onto any hope just since these ii's were after they already saw my SMP?

The only chance for redemption I see is going to be time.

Lots of time.

Like five years -- which is enough time to study for and begin succeeding in an entirely new career in nursing or a different allied health field.

Why so long? Well, your reasons for doing poorly just aren't good enough... Life will continue to throw obstacles in your path -- sickness, unemployment, deaths in the family. You'll need to be able to handle them. You also mentioned mental health issues and immaturity. Those are big, big issues and are the most common reasons people drop out of medical school. You need to absolutely master those problems and demonstrate that you have.

After you've done that for five years, you can then make the argument that FutureYou is not the same person as PastYou, as evidenced by the strong and consistent strong track record you will have been carefully building during those five years. Taking 1-2 upper-level science courses at a time while you wait might be a good idea.

At that point - and emphatically not before - you could reapply and might entice someone to take a chance on you.

I agree that everything is going to take a long time regardless, which is why I wanted some thoughts about my situation, so I very much appreciate it. I have no doubt that the immaturity and mental health issues will not cause the problems they have in the past for me, but I know words literally do not matter; I plan on piling up my coursework and proving it myself in these upcoming semesters.

I think my future path is what you recommend-- taking 3 actually upperlevel science courses and waiting things out for a bit. It might be foolish of me, but I think I'm still going to apply as I go though. I messed up the past 5 years of my premed life, so it makes sense if it would take another 5 years to get anywhere from here.

RN to NP is the most viable. Average PA GPA is way above your’s.

Dont go carib. Dont retake that MCAT because if you do and do worse, you’re 100% finished.

I sympathize with your situation, but you should have withdrawn. S*** hit the fan with me first year of med school and it was an absolute disaster.

Basically to get into med school you have to prove you can do well. The SMP is the best way to do this and you didnt. Med school is also a lot of memorization.

This is what I've been told, and I'm not opposed to going the RN -> NP path, but I think I want to try and take some time and see what I can do to reinvent myself in the years to come. I guess with everyone's advice, I will abstain from taking the MCAT unless my score expires and I still have hope I can get in somewhere. That being said, I would still prefer the PA route if there is any hope in that, though I still need to add some things (on top of gpa repair) to be competitive for PA.

I agree. Like I've been mentioning, I had NO IDEA what I was doing at all on my premed track until after I botched my SMP, which I can see is like 5 years too late. I wish I withdrew, or powered through. Here I am now though.

I'm sorry to hear about your first year in medical school; I'm glad you were able to get through it.

 

[Damson]

Also @fusionnoble - Aussie grads have an edge over Carib grads when applying home to US residencies. But as an IMG, it's still very risky. Which is why you should also apply to Aussie internships as well if you go to Australia.

No international student graduating from an Australian medical school has ever gone without a postgraduate internship acceptance if they were willing to move near the hospital that accepted them. However
- we don't know if this will continue to be the case four years down the line
- this is assuming you're okay with staying in Australia

 

[fusionnoble]

Also @fusionnoble - Aussie grads have an edge over Carib grads when applying home to US residencies. But you should also apply to Aussie internships as well

No international student graduating from an Australian medical school has ever gone without a postgraduate internship acceptance if they were willing to move to the hospital that accepted them. However
- we don't know if this will continue to be the case four years down the line
- this is assuming you're okay with staying in Australia

I've never considered going to Australia, but I'll look into it as an option! Living in Australia would be a big change, to put it lightly.

 

[Damson]

I've never considered going to Australia, but I'll look into it as an option! Living in Australia would be a big change, to put it lightly.

Agreed, it'd be a big change, but it's still a western society and nation after all. Hope it's a viable option for you. Good luck.

 

[fusionnoble]

OP, you still haven't demonstrated you can handle high level coursework. You need to be able to demonstrate that to have a chance at admission. Your good MCAT score after a few weeks of studying indicates you have good test taking skills and you are bright. It also indicates to me that you were lazy and didnt put the time in to master the courses you were taking. Bright and lazy is a bad combination for a doctor and would not be the doctor I would choose. I think a DIY post bac and nailing it might be your best chance. You would also have to prove to me that this lazy streak is gone. Just my 2 cents
Sorry if I was blunt. Good luck and best wishes.

I completely agree. If I am unable to knock these upper level science classes out of the park these coming semesters, I will have zero problem admitting I have zero chance at finding success in this path. I'm glad to hear you think a DIY postbacc is the best choice here!

I was asking for blunt advice, and you provided, so I truly appreciate it. And to be blunt, I was lazy. Hopefully being bright (if I am) and fixing my laziness will take me somewhere in life though. Thank you for taking time to read my story thus far! I've been really downtrodden and obviously somewhat in denial about my situation, but I see what I need to do and I'm going to give it a shot.

 

[Isoval]

Just wanted to chime in because I saw this point come up:

A 511 indicates you are unlikely to be weeded out of a Caribbean school. This is true.
However, a 2.9 SMP indicates you are reasonably likely to be weeded out of a Caribbean school.

Considering that the MCAT is a worse indicator of first- and second-year performance than SMPs, I know which I trust.

I think you're in a deep, deep hole. I don't necessarily think you're totally dead in the water given what you've proven with your MCAT score, but it doesn't look bright. You're look at - minimum - additional DIY postbacc classes or another SMP, hopefully with direct linkage.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

I'm not opposed to nursing, which I do see as a potential path for me to take in the years to come, I would prefer that route over podiatry in fact. I think I'll take some time on this though for right now.

If the DIY-plan doesn't work out, then I also suggest going with the nursing path and highly advise against the Carribeans or other international medical school routes. The risks of being an IMG/FMG outweigh the benefits; at least with nursing (or PA), you have a great chance of graduating and having a career, with less debt.

Good luck!

 

[Osminog]

Just wanted to chime in because I saw this point come up:

A 511 indicates you are unlikely to be weeded out of a Caribbean school. This is true.
However, a 2.9 SMP indicates you are reasonably likely to be weeded out of a Caribbean school.

Considering that the MCAT is a worse indicator of first- and second-year performance than SMPs, I know which I trust.

I think you're in a deep, deep hole. I don't necessarily think you're totally dead in the water given what you've proven with your MCAT score, but it doesn't look bright. You're look at - minimum - additional DIY postbacc classes or another SMP, hopefully with direct linkage.

Do you have data that show that SMP GPA is strongly correlated to likelihood of successfully graduating medical school, or that it’s more correlated to medical school completion than MCAT performance? I don’t think such data exist, since too few people with low SMP GPAs end up going to medical school.

Since I don’t think we have any data, I have to depend on intuition. My intuition tells me that achieving a 2.9 GPA (mix of B’s and C’s) in a curriculum that’s meant to reflect the difficulty and course content of M1 would not indicate that one is “reasonably likely” to fail out of SGU. More than half of the students in SGU’s entering classes have MCAT scores in the 490s and have no business studying medicine; the ~30% of students who flunk out of SGU probably would have flunked out if they enrolled in an SMP.

In general, I strongly advise against going to the Caribbean, especially since Step 1 is going to be P/F... but the OP is running low on options, and his MCAT score will likely expire soon. A balanced 511 MCAT reflects a solid preparedness in the sciences, and I think it puts OP leagues ahead of the many of the unprepared, clueless people who go to SGU. Given the nature of the situation, I think it’s a reasonable backup option. That’s just my opinion.

 

[Goro]

Do you have data that show that SMP GPA is strongly correlated to likelihood of successfully graduating medical school, or that it’s more correlated to medical school completion than MCAT performance? I don’t think such data exist, since too few people with low SMP GPAs end up going to medical school.

Since I don’t think we have any data, I have to depend on intuition. My intuition tells me that achieving a 2.9 GPA (mix of B’s and C’s) in a curriculum that’s meant to reflect the difficulty and course content of M1 would not indicate that one is “reasonably likely” to fail out of SGU. More than half of the students in SGU’s entering classes have MCAT scores in the 490s and have no business studying medicine; the ~30% of students who flunk out of SGU probably would have flunked out if they enrolled in an SMP.

In general, I strongly advise against going to the Caribbean, especially since Step 1 is going to be P/F... but the OP is running low on options, and his MCAT score will likely expire soon. A balanced 511 MCAT reflects a solid preparedness in the sciences, and I think it puts OP leagues ahead of the many of the unprepared, clueless people who go to SGU. Given the nature of the situation, I think it’s a reasonable backup option. That’s just my opinion.

At my school, we see a nearly identical performance between SMP GPA and the med school. It's not perfectly linear. In fact, falls off of a cliff once you get down to the low 80s.

So a 90% SMP student will be a 90% medical student, and an 85% SMP will be an 85% medical student, but an 80% SMP student will be failing courses in med school. AND failing Boards.

So no, OP would most likely be dismissed at any Carib school.

OP, it's time for Plan B.

 

[Osminog]

At my school, we see a nearly identical performance between SMP GPA and the med school. It's not perfectly linear. In fact, falls off of a cliff once you get down to the low 80s.

So a 90% SMP student will be a 90% medical student, and an 85% SMP will be an 85% medical student, but an 80% SMP student will be failing courses in med school. AND failing Boards.

So no, OP would most likely be dismissed at any Carib school.

OP, it's time for Plan B.

I’m guessing you almost never accept SMP graduates with 80% averages (~2.7 GPAs), so how would you have a large enough sample size to reasonably conclude that this population has a high chance of failing out of medical school?

Also, if 90% medical students usually had a 90% in their SMPs and 85% medical students usually had an 85% in their SMPs, how would 80% medical students have performed in their SMPs?

Finally, at face value, why would getting B’s and C’s in medical school-level classes indicate a high likelihood of medical school failure? At least a quarter of my medical school class gets a C in any given pre-clinical basic science course, but >95% of us will pass boards and successfully graduate. SMP students at my school take many of the same classes as the medical students—but if they perform at the level of the bottom or third quartile of my medical school class, we’re supposed to deem them likely to flunk out of medical school when they’re taking the courses for a second time? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

 

[GreenDuck12]

I’m guessing you almost never accept SMP graduates with 80% averages (~2.7 GPAs), so how would you have a large enough sample size to reasonably conclude that this population has a high chance of failing out of medical school?

Also, if 90% medical students usually had a 90% in their SMPs and 85% medical students usually had an 85% in their SMPs, how would 80% medical students have performed in their SMPs?

Finally, at face value, why would getting B’s and C’s in medical school-level classes indicate a high likelihood of medical school failure? At least a quarter of my medical school class gets a C in any given pre-clinical basic science course, but >95% of us will pass boards and successfully graduate. SMP students at my school take many of the same classes as the medical students—but if they perform at the level of the bottom or third quartile of my medical school class, we’re supposed to deem them likely to flunk out of medical school when they’re taking the courses for a second time? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

You seem to really be digging in on this point and I’m not quite sure why? As for being at risk of flunking out, remember that at Caribbean programs, which you considered to be a reasonable option, use standardized questions to ”cull the heard” progressively during preclinical years to support their business model.

 

[Osminog]

You seem to really be digging in on this point and I’m not quite sure why? As for being at risk of flunking out, remember that at Caribbean programs, which you considered to be a reasonable option, use standardized questions to ”cull the heard” progressively during preclinical years to support their business model.

I’m “digging in” because I think that a lot of the ideas that are widely accepted as true on this forum don’t really have a basis in fact. I don’t like the idea of uncritically accepting internet wisdom and then using it as a foundation for academic advice.

“Use standardized questions to cull the heard [sic]”? I don’t know what that means. Anyway, I’m not a fan of Caribbean schools, and I don’t routinely recommend them to anybody, but given the dire circumstances here, I think SGU would be a sound backup plan. Also, note that I’m not recommending any Caribbean school except SGU, which has the best reputation and results (comparatively).

 

[GreenDuck12]

I’m “digging in” because I think that a lot of the ideas that are widely accepted as true on this forum don’t really have a basis in fact. I don’t like the idea of uncritically accepting internet wisdom and then using it as a foundation for academic advice.

“Use standardized questions to cull the heard [sic]”? I don’t know what that means. Anyway, I’m not a fan of Caribbean schools, and I don’t routinely recommend them to anybody, but given the dire circumstances here, I think SGU would be a sound backup plan. Also, note that I’m not recommending any Caribbean school except SGU, which has the best reputation and results (comparatively).

That’s a fair point about input from the internet.

As for what I meant in my post with culling the herd (misspelling noted ) SGU and other for profit entities use standardized question banks to formulate their exams that determine if students pass or need to repeat a course. When the class average is off target, they can increase the difficulty of the exam by adding questions that historically fewer students answer correctly. This is part of the business model because profit margins are highest during preclinical years. It is in SGU’s interest to gradually decrease their enrollment over their two preclinical years prior to contracting with US hospitals to provide clinical opportunities for their students, at which point their profit margin decreases significantly.

While I share your assessment about dire circumstances that the OP is in, I wouldn’t recommend SGU or any other foreign for profit entity for medical school. I especially would not recommend programs that pursue policies that serve their bottom line (increasing class sizes) while failing to address deficiencies in their programs that lead to many students being unable to graduate or unable to match into residency. Residency slots are not increasing, while IS MD and DO programs continue to expand. The loan repayment figures are too terrifying to recommend accepting that level of risk to become a doctor.

 

[Goro]

I’m guessing you almost never accept SMP graduates with 80% averages (~2.7 GPAs), so how would you have a large enough sample size to reasonably conclude that this population has a high chance of failing out of medical school?

We see it in our own SMP students. We have learned this the hard way. Those weak students no longer get accepted into our program


Also, if 90% medical students usually had a 90% in their SMPs and 85% medical students usually had an 85% in their SMPs, how would 80% medical students have performed in their SMPs?

Great question. I don't know. That would be retrospective data and I don't have access to that. Would make for a great medical education paper. But I suspect that an SMP student won't perform at the 80% level on the COM. It will be all or none above that cliff I mentioned.

Finally, at face value, why would getting B’s and C’s in medical school-level classes indicate a high likelihood of medical school failure? At least a quarter of my medical school class gets a C in any given pre-clinical basic science course, but >95% of us will pass boards and successfully graduate. SMP students at my school take many of the same classes as the medical students—but if they perform at the level of the bottom or third quartile of my medical school class, we’re supposed to deem them likely to flunk out of medical school when they’re taking the courses for a second time? That doesn’t make any sense to me.

All I can give you is the consistent data I see from my own school.

I believe that the underperforming cohort of SMP students hit the limit of their intellectual capabilities in the SMP, and then get overtaxed by the increased rigor of med school. You can't compare an SMP -> med school student to the generic med student pool; they are two different pools.

Also, some of these weaker SMP students usually have uneven performances; they're not straight 81% students. rather, they may have 1 A, three low Bs and one C. It's analogous to juggling cinder blocks. They can keep 3 or 4 in the air, but invariably, 1-2 land on their feet.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I’m “digging in” because I think that a lot of the ideas that are widely accepted as true on this forum don’t really have a basis in fact. I don’t like the idea of uncritically accepting internet wisdom and then using it as a foundation for academic advice.

“Use standardized questions to cull the heard [sic]”? I don’t know what that means. Anyway, I’m not a fan of Caribbean schools, and I don’t routinely recommend them to anybody, but given the dire circumstances here, I think SGU would be a sound backup plan. Also, note that I’m not recommending any Caribbean school except SGU, which has the best reputation and results (comparatively).

You dont need to do a DBRT to suggest it's raining outside. We know what the usual suspects look like. They are lower stat individuals. Our schools don't release the admission data on students who struggle academically for privacy reasons. At least that's what I'm told. When you and other faculty see students you interviewed and not recommended for admission in class, then watch them struggle, you see a pattern develop. Some do succeed as I have mentioned in other posts and its very hard to know who will and who wont. But the ones who don't pretty much all fit the same pattern. This excludes students with health issues or family problems. Students with above average stats are rarely in the floundering cohort, unless there are personal or health reasons. I'm not saying OP can't be a doctor, but for now they would be a high a high risk candidate IMO. I think at this point in time OP would be at risk for dropping out rather than failing as they admitted they were lazy in the past. They need to demonstrate they can succeed in difficult classes over an entire semester and not slack off.

 

[fusionnoble]

I think at this point in time OP would be at risk for dropping out rather than failing as they admitted they were lazy in the past. They need to demonstrate they can succeed in difficult classes over an entire semester and not slack off.

I agree with that last statement in terms of how I really need to prove it to myself too; being confident means nothing until I prove my grades. I find myself very blessed that I can take classes for free right now, while sustaining myself, so I'll go ahead and give it a go.

I still can't shake the feeling that I was "so close" by getting iis a year after a botched smp, so I'm going to push just a little longer. Maybe everyone saying I'm hopeless is right, but I just want to try this DIY postbacc thing for just a little and see if I can bleach this glaring red flag a little less red.

I appreciated seeing yet another Caribbean debate on SDN (and I'm now getting ads for SGU on here lol), but I will stay at home for now. Thank you everyone so, so, much for all the input! Please wish me luck on my adventure~

Thinking about my future the past few days has me feeling all sorts of things, but the semester starts tomorrow, so I'm going to take it a day at a time, grit my teeth, and study my brains out.

 

[YoungDrummer]

For anyone reading, this is why SMPs are high risk, high reward. Several of my classmates entered with 504+/3.5 from undergrad and bombed the SMP and ruined their chances because they did not want to apply DO. Did you have a 511 before starting the SMP? A 2.9 sGPA from undergrad isn't the end of the world and it might have been better to do a DIY-post bacc and get it >3.0 and could have gotten you into a newer DO school.

If you do end up doing a second SMP make sure to do one with linkage otherwise it'll be a tough sell. Still possible, but financially and mentally stressful. Best of luck

That is so unfortunate that they did an SMP with decent STATs. That is really too bad they didn't want to go to a DO school.

 

[YoungDrummer]

Yup! Some were forced by their MD parents to shoot their shot for MD rather than go to "icky" DO. A few went the Caribbean route after flunking outwhich has worse outcomes so I'm still trying to understand their rationale.

One would think that MD parents would think just as highly of the DO profession. And OH NO to the Caribbean route! Now they have to go through all that crap.