Basic science research

[MindCastle15]

Hey...so I need some help on this one. I'm considering majoring in biomedical sciences or studying medicine (in the UK)...I'm mostly interested in medical research...I would've happily continued to graduate school, then PhD (I'm mostly interested in neuroscience and cancer research)....except that I've heard from many many people (who have personal experience) that PhDs rarely get stable jobs, and that research gets tedious after a while, its not something that can be continued for the rest of my life. So I basically want to know how life in academia is...is it better to study medicine? I like medicine but I'm not particularly interested in seeing patients for the rest of my life...some fields like pathology would suit me better, i think. Is it possible to do basic science research after medicine? If so, is it a long, hard path, involving a PhD, or can I do basic science research after a MBBS? Thanks in advance!
One thing I've noticed (in this forum, at least) is that most people, after doing a PhD, everybody ends up in medical school! Is the job stability factor a reason?

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[WedgeDawg]

In the US, you can do basic, translational, or clinical research after pursuing an MD, though many people will do a short research fellowship before doing basic research. However, in most other countries (not specifically sure about the UK, but I think it follows this trend), an MD/MBBS is not a research doctorate, and you have to have a PhD to do research. As for the job market for PhDs interested in basic science research in the UK, I don't know enough to comment, but in the US, the market is getting tighter due to an overabundance of applicants and decreases in biomedical research funding across the board.

The reason that you see many people here with a PhD going to medical school is likely self-selection because this is a board oriented toward careers in medicine. I can assure you that the majority of PhDs in the US in related fields do not also pursue an MD.

 

[Holmwood]

Hey...so I need some help on this one. I'm considering majoring in biomedical sciences or studying medicine (in the UK)...I'm mostly interested in medical research...I would've happily continued to graduate school, then PhD (I'm mostly interested in neuroscience and cancer research)....except that I've heard from many many people (who have personal experience) that PhDs rarely get stable jobs, and that research gets tedious after a while, its not something that can be continued for the rest of my life. So I basically want to know how life in academia is...is it better to study medicine? I like medicine but I'm not particularly interested in seeing patients for the rest of my life...some fields like pathology would suit me better, i think. Is it possible to do basic science research after medicine? If so, is it a long, hard path, involving a PhD, or can I do basic science research after a MBBS? Thanks in advance!
One thing I've noticed (in this forum, at least) is that most people, after doing a PhD, everybody ends up in medical school! Is the job stability factor a reason?

Everything gets tedious after a while, especially if it's a job. But if it pays the bills and is somewhat interesting, you'll find some small happiness in that.

Seems to me that you don't know very much about medicine to begin with, but you're gravitating towards that option because you need backup plans. Whatever you do, don't make medicine your backup option when you don't even enjoy working with patients...

If you're passionate about neuroscience and cancer, then pursue one of those with all your heart. Try looking for jobs online and see what the job prospects are like yourself and see what they require.

Here's to get you started for US jobs (lol indeed.com don't judge)...
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=neuroscience+research
http://www.indeed.com/q-Cancer-Research-jobs.html

I talked to one of my dear professors the other day, and he said that most of the PhDs that can't find jobs are unqualified to wear that doctorate hat to begin with. Something to look into!

 

[Jeffrety]

You don't seem to be a people person so you're not a great fit for academia or medicine my friend. You need outstanding social skills to get an tenure track job along with social capital. There is a glut of PhDs in science so chances are you'll end up bouncing between postdocs and adjunct gigs if you can't network or don't know the right people. Don't forget that your degree worth is absolutely tied to the prestige of your school. Have you seen any Cal State grads teaching at Stanford? No but you see the opposite all the time because there are so many desperate PhDs.

Medicine is much more of a meritocracy. People don't really care where your degree came from as long as it is American and says MD. But even the most cloistered academic physician has to deal with people.

 

[MindCastle15]

Ok, I think my post may have come out the wrong way...I don't dislike people, or patients, and I'm definitely not unsocial I don't mind talking to people at all! In fact, I'm also interested in working with organisations like WHO later on... I am just more interested in research, than seeing patients. I wouldn't hate it, but its not something I want to do for the rest of my life. Which is why I really like pathology.
If I pursue a PhD in biomedical sciences, I would only have research as a career option...and I've been warned against it. (My mother was interested in research in chemical engg, but after her PhD in it, she decided research was too competitive and academia was not for her) So at this point, I don't know if research is the best option for me in the long run- I like the idea, but I'm interested in knowing whether its the "publish-or-perish" situation everywhere. If I don't like it, there will be no other options left for me. It seems to me that medicine keeps a lot of options open. So how difficult is it to transition from MD to basic science research? Is a MD-PhD degree necessary? I'm actually an US citizen, so medical school in the US IS an option.
Also, (I know this isn't the correct forum), but what other job options are available after a PhD in biomedical sciences, OTHER than research and academia? Can I work in path labs? Pharmaceutical industries? Say, I specialise in pharmacology after MBBS, vs someone with an MS+PhD in pharmacology- what are the advantages and disadvantages? Sorry for asking these questions here, but I've searched the internet, and I'm not really getting a clear answer anywhere. Add to that a whole plethora of websites moaning about the fate of life science PhDs is really scaring me off course.

 

[MindCastle15]

Everything gets tedious after a while, especially if it's a job. But if it pays the bills and is somewhat interesting, you'll find some small happiness in that.

Seems to me that you don't know very much about medicine to begin with, but you're gravitating towards that option because you need backup plans. Whatever you do, don't make medicine your backup option when you don't even enjoy working with patients...

If you're passionate about neuroscience and cancer, then pursue one of those with all your heart. Try looking for jobs online and see what the job prospects are like yourself and see what they require.

Here's to get you started for US jobs (lol indeed.com don't judge)...
http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=neuroscience+research
http://www.indeed.com/q-Cancer-Research-jobs.html

I talked to one of my dear professors the other day, and he said that most of the PhDs that can't find jobs are unqualified to wear that doctorate hat to begin with. Something to look into!

Thank you, ur websites were very helpful! "Pays the bills"- this is exactly what everyone keeps telling me- that a PhD in biomedical sciences does NOT pay the bills...no stable jobs. I've heard plenty of people go into other fields after PhDs, because they do not get a stable job as a professor, but if I don't get to do research,I don't see the point of taking this route. I would much rather help patients than go into careers like 'medical writing' and stuff. No offense to anybody here, its just about my personal interests.

 

[allantois]

Here in the US, you will first go to undergrad and for all practical purposes major in biological sciences. During the course of your undergrad years, you will have the opportunity to get involved with research and decide for yourself whether a PhD or an MD is something that you want to do.

If you want to be a physician, you need to go to medical school in the country you want to live in.

 

[Holmwood]

Ok, I think my post may have come out the wrong way...I don't dislike people, or patients, and I'm definitely not unsocial I don't mind talking to people! I am just more interested in research, than seeing patients. I wouldn't hate it, but its not something I want to do for the rest of my life. Which is why I really like pathology.
If I pursue a PhD in biomedical sciences, I would only have research as a career option...and I've been warned against it. (My mother was interested in research in chemical engg, but after her PhD in it, she decided research was too competitive and academia was not for her) So at this point, I don't know if research is the best option for me in the long run- I like the idea, but I'm interested in knowing whether its the "publish-or-perish" situation everywhere. If I don't like it, there will be no other options left for me. It seems to me that medicine keeps a lot of options open. So how difficult is it to transition from MD to basic science research? Is a MD-PhD degree necessary? I'm actually an US citizen, so medical school in the US IS an option.
Also, (I know this isn't the correct forum), but what other job options are available after a PhD in biomedical sciences, OTHER than research and academia? Can I work in path labs? Pharmaceutical industries? Say, I specialise in pharmacology after MBBS, vs someone with an MS+PhD in pharmacology- what are the advantages and disadvantages? Sorry for asking these questions here, but I've searched the internet, and I'm not really getting a clear answer anywhere. Add to that a whole plethora of websites moaning about the fate of life science PhDs is really scaring me off course.

Well that's why some professors end up teaching at public unis. They're not as pressure to publish as their main job is to teach. That's a tricky situation considering how competitive those positions are. Some people even rotate around different campuses as a lecturer because they just don't qualify for a full time professor. I think @Jeffrety brings up good points; there's a lot of brown-nosing involved with the job.

If you want to do research and development (R&D), I think you need at least a master's... but I think those jobs are drying up. You can check this out as well: http://jobs.bio.org/jobseeker/search/results/ I get regular updates from them about potential jobs and their requirements. I went to a networking session a year ago and some lady was suggesting quality control for those people who don't want to pigeonhole themselves into a single role in research. Probably might be a good option for you if you don't want to dedicate yourself to one molecular pathway your entire life.

 

[MindCastle15]

Well that's why some professors end up teaching at public unis. They're not as pressure to publish as their main job is to teach. That's a tricky situation considering how competitive those positions are. Some people even rotate around different campuses as a lecturer because they just don't qualify for a full time professor. I think @Jeffrety brings up good points; there's a lot of brown-nosing involved with the job.

If you want to do research and development (R&D), I think you need at least a master's... but I think those jobs are drying up. You can check this out as well: http://jobs.bio.org/jobseeker/search/results/ I get regular updates from them about potential jobs and their requirements. I went to a networking session a year ago and some lady was suggesting quality control for those people who don't want to pigeonhole themselves into a single role in research. Probably might be a good option for you if you don't want to dedicate yourself to one molecular pathway your entire life.

So are you basically saying, that in the long run, a medical degree is better? I've also heard, that because of their MD degree, many doctors have an easier time getting grants for research- is it true? Most people I talk to about research say that it is not so much as discovering new things as writing grants, and trying to get a stable position. Mostly what @Jeffrety said.
Another question- what kind of research can I do if I specialise in medical genetics (after medicine)? I am really interested in genetics and this seems like a great field.

 

[MindCastle15]

Here in the US, you will first go to undergrad and for all practical purposes major in biological sciences. During the course of your undergrad years, you will have the opportunity to get involved with research and decide for yourself whether a PhD or an MD is something that you want to do.

If you want to be a physician, you need to go to medical school in the country you want to live in.

That's true. Going to med school in the US will give me time to decide. However, my situation is quite complicated! I currently live in India, am an US citizen and am thinking about UK medical education because while it is less time-consuming than the US, it is far superior to Indian medical education. I want to have the option to be able to practise in the US as well as India. Isn't it possible to complete a residency in the US by giving USMLE's?

 

[MindCastle15]

Also, if I have a bachelor's degree in biomedical sciences, then pursue an MPH (I'm interested in epidemiology), or do a masters in pharmacology/toxicology (I'm interested in forensics as well) what is the job outlook then? Or is it still better to pursue medicine?

 

[Holmwood]

Okay, this is a toughie.

You have a lot of interests but can't decide because you have minimal exposure to these fields is what I am assuming.

All I can tell you is that if you want a job in biotech, genetic counseling (maybe interested?), or forensic science, a master's is required. A PhD may not afford the job security it once did in the past, so perhaps you might want to just start with a master's first, work in industry for a bit, and then decide with more experience and knowledge whether a PhD is necessary for your next career leap. And you're not exactly stuck with one job either. A couple of my professors have transitioned from R&D work in biotech to guaranteed tenured positions at my university, so there's probably opportunity for movement in the career path if you feel dissatisfied for some reason. I even have one professor who planned to leave his position as faculty to start a biotech company....

And actually, if you wanted to work in the US, a master's degree could help land you a job that'll help you obtain permanent residence. You'll then have an easier time applying to competitive programs here in the US either for PhD or MD (competitive programs mean greater likelihood for jobs is what I'm hearing in this thread... at least for the PhD. Not so much the MD which is basically guaranteed job). I'm not an expert, but that's my best guess. I'm not sure what the job prospects for master's students are like relative to PhD, honestly. I just see a lot of job openings for Master's peeps, so I'm not sure if the PhD stigma applies to them.

The other route is to go directly for an MD either in the UK or any other foreign country. You can conduct research as an academic doctor by getting additional training in fellowships, but your main job is to treat patients... This is a route I can't recommend unless you get more exposure to the field because at this point, you prefer research over patients.... That kind of mindset is not ideal for the MD.

Others have mentioned MD/PhD, but you mentioned that time is likely an issue for you, so I can not recommend that path if you don't have a burning desire to pursue that MD.

 

[MindCastle15]

You have a lot of interests but can't decide because you have minimal exposure to these fields is what I am assuming.

Exactly. FINALLY someone who gets it Thank you very much....So basically my two options are going to the US. where I will have more time (and hopefully, experience, by then) to decide vs going to the UK, where the whole process will take much less time...If I REALLY don't like patient interaction, I will always have time to do a PhD, or switch to basic science. More than the time issue, I really don't know yet if I have the tenacity and dedication for a MD/PhD...I think I'll try to do some shadowing at a clinic, and see if the second option is a better option for me.

 

[MindCastle15]

You don't seem to be a people person so you're not a great fit for academia or medicine my friend. You need outstanding social skills to get an tenure track job along with social capital. There is a glut of PhDs in science so chances are you'll end up bouncing between postdocs and adjunct gigs if you can't network or don't know the right people. Don't forget that your degree worth is absolutely tied to the prestige of your school. Have you seen any Cal State grads teaching at Stanford? No but you see the opposite all the time because there are so many desperate PhDs.

Medicine is much more of a meritocracy. People don't really care where your degree came from as long as it is American and says MD. But even the most cloistered academic physician has to deal with people.

I see here that you are in a MD/PhD program: could you tell me whether a PhD or MD/PhD is necessary for those in medicine wanting to pursue basic research? Honestly, at this point, I'm not even sure if I would like clinical research or basic research better, but I want to know whether I will have the option. Thanks!

 

[belle88]

You could probably try working in a lab for awhile (I recommend a year) to see if you like research and volunteer/shadow at a hospital or clinic. That way you can compare the two. My friend got her PhD then went to medical school because she couldn't do the research that she wanted to. It probably depends on a lot of things, like the school you go to and what not, but if you want to do more medical research, MD may be the way to go.

 

[Goro]

With a PhD, getting a Faculty job is a matter of being in the right place at the right time. That and having a productive track record.

There are several paths open: head to Academia and do bench research, or teach.

OR head to Industry...and do research, but with with your company wants you to do.

Ok, I think my post may have come out the wrong way...I don't dislike people, or patients, and I'm definitely not unsocial I don't mind talking to people at all! In fact, I'm also interested in working with organisations like WHO later on... I am just more interested in research, than seeing patients. I wouldn't hate it, but its not something I want to do for the rest of my life. Which is why I really like pathology.
If I pursue a PhD in biomedical sciences, I would only have research as a career option...and I've been warned against it. (My mother was interested in research in chemical engg, but after her PhD in it, she decided research was too competitive and academia was not for her) So at this point, I don't know if research is the best option for me in the long run- I like the idea, but I'm interested in knowing whether its the "publish-or-perish" situation everywhere. If I don't like it, there will be no other options left for me. It seems to me that medicine keeps a lot of options open. So how difficult is it to transition from MD to basic science research? Is a MD-PhD degree necessary? I'm actually an US citizen, so medical school in the US IS an option.
Also, (I know this isn't the correct forum), but what other job options are available after a PhD in biomedical sciences, OTHER than research and academia? Can I work in path labs? Pharmaceutical industries? Say, I specialise in pharmacology after MBBS, vs someone with an MS+PhD in pharmacology- what are the advantages and disadvantages? Sorry for asking these questions here, but I've searched the internet, and I'm not really getting a clear answer anywhere. Add to that a whole plethora of websites moaning about the fate of life science PhDs is really scaring me off course.

 

[MindCastle15]

You could probably try working in a lab for awhile (I recommend a year) to see if you like research and volunteer/shadow at a hospital or clinic. That way you can compare the two. My friend got her PhD then went to medical school because she couldn't do the research that she wanted to. It probably depends on a lot of things, like the school you go to and what not, but if you want to do more medical research, MD may be the way to go.

Thanks! That was a lot of help...I was wondering why people with PhDs continue to med school...May I add that I <3 ur dp?

 

[belle88]

Thanks! That was a lot of help...I was wondering why people with PhDs continue to med school...May I add that I <3 ur dp?

You're welcome! And thanks!

 

[G.NA]

As was previously mentioned, you need to get more exposure to these fields ASAP. You're like a kid who just discovered the playground and wants to try every little thing, except playgrounds don't take years to complete and saddle you with massive debt and opportunity costs
How are you to do this? Go out and make connections. Conferences, referrals through professors, alumni networks.

There are plenty of non-academic jobs for PhDs. The question is if you can even get a smell at them. If your PhD is not at a top school then these yummy opps are largely off the table for you. PhD grads from my top school went to law firms, pharma companies, consulting firms, government, everything you can think of. But my impression is that you need the top credentials with the pubs to back it up