Baylor vs. UTSW

Niko

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    Hey Everybody...I hope you're all not stressing about the rank list coming up. I'm from the West Coast, but have been sold on the Texas Programs. I was hoping some of you can post your interview impressions of these two programs, and what you feel sets one apart from the other. I'm pirmarily interested in the following:

    1) Fellowship placement
    2) Malignancy/Resident Satisfaction
    3) Reputation outside of Texas
    4) Houston vs. Dallas (since I grew up in Cali)

    Hope hope some of you current Baylor and UTSW med students and residents will reply as well.
     

    Fantasy Sports

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      Niko said:
      Hey Everybody...I hope you're all not stressing about the rank list coming up. I'm from the West Coast, but have been sold on the Texas Programs. I was hoping some of you can post your interview impressions of these two programs, and what you feel sets one apart from the other. I'm pirmarily interested in the following:

      1) Fellowship placement
      2) Malignancy/Resident Satisfaction
      3) Reputation outside of Texas
      4) Houston vs. Dallas (since I grew up in Cali)

      Hope hope some of you current Baylor and UTSW med students and residents will reply as well.

      1. Both have good fellowship placement. UTSW is generally the better regarded IM program, but BCM is located in the TMC which has ridiculous fellowship opportunities

      3. Both have a good reputation as far as Ive seen on their match lists, though many like to stick around TX since the TMC is so ridiculous.

      4. Dallas is a craphole, and the area around UTSW isnt very nice. BCM is in the TMC, which is one of the nicer parts of Houston.
       

      fourthyearmed

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        I'm guessing that Fantasy Sports is from Houston! As a non-Texan who externships at both schools (but not in IM) I learned that there is a strong division between people who are Houston people and those who are Dallas people. Everyone likes one city and hates the other. I personally preferred Dallas over Houston. I thought Houston was just too big and crowded. But each city has it's pluses and minuses and it really depends on what you are looking for.
         
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        Pili

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          Niko said:
          Hey Everybody...I hope you're all not stressing about the rank list coming up. I'm from the West Coast, but have been sold on the Texas Programs. I was hoping some of you can post your interview impressions of these two programs, and what you feel sets one apart from the other. I'm pirmarily interested in the following:

          1) Fellowship placement
          2) Malignancy/Resident Satisfaction
          3) Reputation outside of Texas
          4) Houston vs. Dallas (since I grew up in Cali)

          Hope hope some of you current Baylor and UTSW med students and residents will reply as well.
          Don't hesitate: Baylor-Houston. Same rep as UTSW, but less malignant (honestly, not malignant), and in the Texas Medical Center, with access to anything.
           

          Pili

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            Fantasy Sports said:
            1. Both have good fellowship placement. UTSW is generally the better regarded IM program, but BCM is located in the TMC which has ridiculous fellowship opportunities

            3. Both have a good reputation as far as Ive seen on their match lists, though many like to stick around TX since the TMC is so ridiculous.

            4. Dallas is a craphole, and the area around UTSW isnt very nice. BCM is in the TMC, which is one of the nicer parts of Houston.
            Ridiculous= immense (just clarifying)
             

            Pili

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              fourthyearmed said:
              I'm guessing that Fantasy Sports is from Houston! As a non-Texan who externships at both schools (but not in IM) I learned that there is a strong division between people who are Houston people and those who are Dallas people. Everyone likes one city and hates the other. I personally preferred Dallas over Houston. I thought Houston was just too big and crowded. But each city has it's pluses and minuses and it really depends on what you are looking for.
              Houston=Texas Medical Center. 'nuff said
               

              Fantasy Sports

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                fourthyearmed said:
                I'm guessing that Fantasy Sports is from Houston! As a non-Texan who externships at both schools (but not in IM) I learned that there is a strong division between people who are Houston people and those who are Dallas people. Everyone likes one city and hates the other. I personally preferred Dallas over Houston. I thought Houston was just too big and crowded. But each city has it's pluses and minuses and it really depends on what you are looking for.

                Actually, almost every single Dallas person I know at my school has within a year grown to like Houston and would choose to live there given a choice between those two.

                But don't take my work for it, check out the Dallas Medical Center, and then check out the TEXAS Medical Center (in Houston) and see which area you like better.

                Something tells me you might favor the largest medical center in the world located in a fairly upscale but still affordable area.
                 

                barrytee

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                  Hmmm. This is a tough one to answer. Let me start by disclosing the fact that I grew up in Houston. UTSW definitely has the better reputation (for IM...Baylor probably better medical school) but Baylor still very solid. Both do very well for fellowships.....maybe UTSW has slight edge. In terms of cities, Houston bigger, more diverse, more down to earth, lots of restaurants/bars/musueums. I'm not a big fan of Dallas but take that with a huge lump of salt b/c Im biased. But Dallas can be a fun city, slightly smaller (i.e. less traffic), though stereotypes of people walking around with there noses in the air never fails to be reinforced. This help? Would love to hear more thoughts on the subject.
                   

                  UTSouthwestern

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                    As a totally unbiased observer of this debate, I will take Dallas over super smog, road raging/crime capital, if you live there you'll triple your chances to both work at and be a patient of the TMC, Houston. :D Just kidding. I love both Dallas and Houston, but I felt that Dallas provided a more relaxed and cleaner environment to live in.

                    I think both programs are great for IM. The IM residents here work hard, but they are among the happiest residents in the entire program. They enjoy a great deal of respect among their residency peers and faculty and I have yet to meet a medicine resident here that wasn't well trained, confident, and extremely knowledgeable. We don't have the big donors to help us match the facilities of TMC, but somehow we still manage to train among the finest internists in the nation with spectacular fellowship placement.
                     

                    anesthesia1

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                      I agree with ut southwestern. I am a senior medicine resident and ut southwestern is the strongest program in Texas. What you all have to understand is that the TMC is the biggest but all the facilites are all seperate from one another financially and most definitely in their politics and internal processes. Many of the hospitals there are competing against each other etc..You will be training at either Baylor or UT Houston for medicine and I can assure you, they don't sleep in the same bed.
                       

                      Fantasy Sports

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                        anesthesia1 said:
                        I agree with ut southwestern. I am a senior medicine resident and ut southwestern is the strongest program in Texas. What you all have to understand is that the TMC is the biggest but all the facilites are all seperate from one another financially and most definitely in their politics and internal processes. Many of the hospitals there are competing against each other etc..You will be training at either Baylor or UT Houston for medicine and I can assure you, they don't sleep in the same bed.

                        UTSW is the strongest internal medicine program in TX, but fellowship wise, UTSW doesnt hold a candle to BCM or, in several programs, UTH.

                        Yes the TMC is all seperate, but its all accessible within 2 schools: BCM (St Lukes, TCH, VA, Ben Taubstill at Methodist) and UTH (Hermann and all its affiliates, St. Lukes). The competing aspect is overrated, as the TMC is one of the few places where there are way more doctors than students. And the diversity of hospital types is unparalleled. And even though we don't sleep in the same bed as BCM, each program by itself is easily larger than UTSW (which tells you how big the TMC is).

                        UTSW is a great place for internal medicine, and so is the TMC. But if you're interested in fellowships, the TMC is where the action is.
                         

                        UTSouthwestern

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                          Fantasy Sports said:
                          UTSW is the strongest internal medicine program in TX, but fellowship wise, UTSW doesnt hold a candle to BCM or, in several programs, UTH.

                          Yes the TMC is all seperate, but its all accessible within 2 schools: BCM (St Lukes, TCH, VA, Ben Taubstill at Methodist) and UTH (Hermann and all its affiliates, St. Lukes). The competing aspect is overrated, as the TMC is one of the few places where there are way more doctors than students. And the diversity of hospital types is unparalleled. And even though we don't sleep in the same bed as BCM, each program by itself is easily larger than UTSW (which tells you how big the TMC is).

                          UTSW is a great place for internal medicine, and so is the TMC. But if you're interested in fellowships, the TMC is where the action is.

                          No one is disagreeing with that point. TMC just by sheer size and numbers has many more fellowships and fellowship positions available to offer. I'd imagine there are multiple cardiac, GI, nephrology, and other fellowships in just the TMC proper.

                          Does it mean you have to do your residency there to get one of those fellowships? No. It helps, but isn't necessary.

                          Just emphasizing the point that while we can't compete with TMC from a size and numbers perspective, we have plenty of quality here. All of the IM fellowships at Southwestern are top notch and our size gives us a benefit in that we have no competition for the patient population that each subspecialty sees, with tons of regional referrals from neighboring states as well.
                           

                          Fantasy Sports

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                            UTSouthwestern said:
                            No one is disagreeing with that point. TMC just by sheer size and numbers has many more fellowships and fellowship positions available to offer. I'd imagine there are multiple cardiac, GI, nephrology, and other fellowships in just the TMC proper.

                            Does it mean you have to do your residency there to get one of those fellowships? No. It helps, but isn't necessary.

                            Just emphasizing the point that while we can't compete with TMC from a size and numbers perspective, we have plenty of quality here. All of the IM fellowships at Southwestern are top notch and our size gives us a benefit in that we have no competition for the patient population that each subspecialty sees, with tons of regional referrals from neighboring states as well.

                            Agreed, UTSW is a great place to train as well, and aside from the size and numbers standpoint, the fellowships in TMC are highly competitive. The hospitals are state of the art (well, at least the privates...), and there are almost never too many students on a team because there are just so many physicians interested in teaching in this area. And in terms of "competition for patients" there is no shortage of people that need treatment in the TMC, and people from all over the world fly here for care. Id venture that the TMC is second only to Boston, Baltimore, and Mayo in referrals to our subspecialties.

                            I think the competition aspect is way overblown-- there are plenty of patients of all different types of means, origins, and illness that need help in the TMC. And I am yet to hear an attending say "oh I really wish we could get the OTHER hospital's patients as well." If anything, UTSW has to compete and generally loses out to the TMC for patients not from the immediate Dallas area or northern LA/Arkansas/OK/NM.

                            And the incredible thing is, we are still growing! The largest medical center in the world, with a lot of the top-shelf fellowships and hospitals, is actually expanding at an incredible rate.

                            But honestly, the only way for someone to decide which environment they like better is to visit both. UTSW and TMC are both great places to train, but Ill put my money where my mouth is and stick around the TMC.
                             
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                            UTSouthwestern

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                              Fantasy Sports said:
                              Agreed, UTSW is a great place to train as well, and aside from the size and numbers standpoint, the fellowships in TMC are highly competitive. The hospitals are state of the art (well, at least the privates...), and there are almost never too many students on a team because there are just so many physicians interested in teaching in this area. And in terms of "competition for patients" there is no shortage of people that need treatment in the TMC, and people from all over the world fly here for care. Id venture that the TMC is second only to Boston, Baltimore, and Mayo in referrals to our subspecialties.

                              I think the competition aspect is way overblown-- there are plenty of patients of all different types of means, origins, and illness that need help in the TMC. And I am yet to hear an attending say "oh I really wish we could get the OTHER hospital's patients as well." If anything, UTSW has to compete and generally loses out to the TMC for patients not from the immediate Dallas area or northern LA/Arkansas/OK/NM.

                              And the incredible thing is, we are still growing! The largest medical center in the world, with a lot of the top-shelf fellowships and hospitals, is actually expanding at an incredible rate.

                              But honestly, the only way for someone to decide which environment they like better is to visit both. UTSW and TMC are both great places to train, but Ill put my money where my mouth is and stick around the TMC.

                              You would be suprised by the number of referrals we receive both regionally and non-regionally and from physicians at the TMC, so your assertion that Southwestern generally loses referrals to the TMC is a generalization. Both institutions have their strengths and weaknesses and as everyone will agree to, it is best to weigh each of them for your personal decision making process.

                              I would add one last point in that Southwestern is a truly resident driven institution that provides its residents with more autonomy at an earlier stage than most programs. You are the doctor from day one and you will be confident and well trained in all that you do.
                               

                              EvilNewbie

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                                Don't believe that Baylor - Houston is better than UTSW. Baylor LOST their teaching hospital because of their oversized ego AND in fact, lost a large number of doctors AND departments who transferred away from Baylor to go to the teaching hospital. UTSW is stable all around and has alot of big names. Baylor - Dallas is a private hospital affiliated with Baylor and it's an okay place. UT - Houston is very nice AND massive with a boat-load of hospitals. I can't believe people are saying Baylor-Houston is good after that fiasco. Geez...
                                 

                                bicycle

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                                  Fantasy Sports said:
                                  And the incredible thing is, we are still growing! The largest medical center in the world, with a lot of the top-shelf fellowships and hospitals, is actually expanding at an incredible rate.
                                  QUOTE]

                                  Wow! Everything really is bigger in Texas
                                   

                                  Fantasy Sports

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                                    EvilNewbie said:
                                    Don't believe that Baylor - Houston is better than UTSW. Baylor LOST their teaching hospital because of their oversized ego AND in fact, lost a large number of doctors AND departments who transferred away from Baylor to go to the teaching hospital. UTSW is stable all around and has alot of big names. Baylor - Dallas is a private hospital affiliated with Baylor and it's an okay place. UT - Houston is very nice AND massive with a boat-load of hospitals. I can't believe people are saying Baylor-Houston is good after that fiasco. Geez...

                                    So this is kind of weird territory for me, since I dont go to BCM, but BCM didnt lose Methodist, it switched to St. Lukes. And Methodist wanted to control their academic partner, which is the reason my school (UTH), UTMB, and supposedly UTSW rejected affiliation with Methodist!

                                    And in terms of departments, my roommate tells me that they expect 1% turnover in faculty, and that only 3 depts were affected (path, neurology, neurosurg). But apparently neurosurg is moving to MD Anderson (huge upgrade), and path and neurology are planning to increase their affilations with MDA, TCH, St. Lukes-- so big plusses there for the TMC.

                                    And it appears Methodist has shot itself in the foot with its hubris, because the ACGME wouldnt allow them to call themselves a Cornell residency... so it looks like they have become a de facto community program.

                                    UTSW isnt as stable as you might think, especially considering the recent paper about the inefficiency of Parkland and thoughts about changing the way things are run there. I dont know anything about Baylor-Dallas, but its no TMC thats for sure. In any case, the two Dallas centers are dwarfed by even a third of the TMC in just about any aspect. There's a reason its called the TEXAS medical center.

                                    Can't agree with you more on UT-H, we're doing extremely well and are growing a ton, but so is the whole TMC.

                                    To be honest, I think both BCM and UTH benefitted from cutting the cord/not allying with Methodist. Methodist is really full of itself, thinking it can tell the medical schools what they can and can't do. I think they forgot that without the academics, Methodist is nothing more than a building...

                                    But overall, the TMC is where its at, and I couldnt imagine getting similar training anywhere else in the region. You really have to see this place to believe the kinds of incredible things going on here.
                                     

                                    UTSouthwestern

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                                      Fantasy Sports said:
                                      UTSW isnt as stable as you might think, especially considering the recent paper about the inefficiency of Parkland and thoughts about changing the way things are run there.

                                      I believe that was the Dallas VA Hospital. You have an interesting version of the Methodist situation. You should ask more questions about it because that version is not complete.
                                       

                                      Fantasy Sports

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                                        UTSouthwestern said:
                                        You have an interesting version of the Methodist situation. You should ask more questions about it because that version is not complete.

                                        And what is missing? A weird statement on your part, considering you a) are not even in the TMC med center b)didnt provide any counterpoints c) didnt back up your counterpoints with a source...

                                        The whole issue, as far as Ive seen, was a new outpatient center that BCM wanted to build on its own. Methodist did not want that since it might take away from its own new outpatient center. And thus it began.

                                        UTH and UTMB did not want to have anything to do with Methodist since right now we are both in control of our own destiny, so to speak.

                                        Ive read the Chronicle coverage, Ive talked to BCM and UTH attendings about it, and I was actually very much interested in where Methodist's affiliation would lie after it got split. As I learned more about the issue, I realized that it was probably for the best that we didn't pursue them any further, considering the healthy and mutually-beneficial relationship we have with Hermann.

                                        In any case, I am yet to see any private hospital try to dominate its relationship with its academic counterpart in order to better its financial status and succeed. And it is for that reason Im glad we're allied with a hospital that actually cares about the academic practice of medicine.
                                         

                                        Fantasy Sports

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                                          UTSouthwestern

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                                            "There's no doubt that this is a system overwhelmed by a large number of patients," he said. "A lot of inefficiencies at Parkland, including long wait times and access problems, are not occurring because we think it's useful for educational purposes. It's just the only way to cope."

                                            That article could be printed each year. As I have said before, we are not a super rich program that has hotel-like hospitals catering to the financially elite. We take ALL comers without question and guess what - that means a lot of times you have to wait. Many hospitals take indigent care, but few take ALL comers regardless.

                                            We take indigent patients from all over Texas including, yes Houston and surrounding communities, all border states, and foreign countries without any regard to the financial impact it has on our program. It isn't a sound business principle, but it is the way we do it.

                                            Imagine trying to provide the bulk of indigent and low income care for the city of Houston with only Methodist or St. Luke's.

                                            Here are a few more choice quotes:
                                            "Parkland has very competent and dedicated physicians who provide excellent quality of care to their patients. The reorganization and refocus of the specialty care outpatient clinics, however, must be a significant priority for Parkland's administration and for its physicians in order to more effectively and efficiently meet the needs of its patients."

                                            •

                                            "The backlog in emergency rooms does not correlate so much with how many people arrive for care, but, rather, with how readily and successfully the emergency department is able to admit patients to beds in the hospital. . .

                                            •

                                            "It is not uncommon for patients to be admitted to the hospital for a surgical procedure, wait in a bed for several days because their surgeries have gotten 'bumped' by emergency trauma cases, sometimes leave the hospital and come back another day. This is poor patient care, unnecessary utilization of inpatient beds (for which services cannot be billed because no service was provided), and a guarantee that any patients who have other options to get their care elsewhere (i.e. are insured) will do just that."

                                            •

                                            "Patients are often kept in acute care beds in Parkland Hospital because of the difficulty of finding long-term care (nursing home) beds for them in private institutions. This is a particular problem for patients who may have ongoing medical, substance abuse, mental health, social or a combination of these problems. ... Public hospital systems around the country address the issue of long-term care quite differently. Some – Chicago, San Francisco, Memphis, New York and Indianapolis – have long-term care beds as part of their systems."

                                            •

                                            "Most physicians work substantially in other venues and admit [patients] to other hospitals. The chairmen of [Parkland] departments are UT Southwestern chairmen, who have responsibilities at several different hospitals. They are faced with different and often competing missions and expectations from their roles with the hospital and the university. ... "
                                             

                                            bigtuna

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                                              Guess I'll weigh in here. I grew up in texas and went to med school at baylor. I have a lot of friends that are doing IM at both programs. I decided to go out of state for IM.

                                              1) reputation - UTSW definitely has the edge here, especially in the northeast. This would be a factor if you want to do your fellowship at a big name place in the northeast or possibly even west coast. Otherwise, doesn't matter.

                                              2) dallas vs houston - I've lived in both cities. Overall, both very similar. Everybody has their personal preference but probably wouldn't let this influence my decision on programs.

                                              3) Facilities - baylor has a big edge here. Ben Taub is the equivalent of parkland with crazy cases, large workload, high level of resident autonomy, etc. The houston VA blows away the dallas VA. Baylor has some very impressive faculty at their VA (Doug Mann for cardiology, Dan Musher for ID, etc.) St. Lukes is a much bigger part of the residency at baylor than the private experience at southwestern. I would not worry about the methodist situation at all in regards to baylor. The methodist rotations were some of the weakest and least well liked for baylor IM residents and st lukes has some great rotations.

                                              4) Malignancy - On the grand scheme of things these are both 2 of the harder working programs in the country but southwestern may be one the most malignant in the country in terms of work hours, etc. However, UTSW residents are extremely competent and well-trained as a result. If you want to go to a program where you can call the shots from Day 1, then UTSW may be the place for you.


                                              Bottom line - You will work harder at UTSW than baylor. UTSW has a definite edge in reputation and possibly a slight edge in terms of quality of training. Baylor has a superior hospital system.
                                               

                                              Fantasy Sports

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                                                That article could be printed each year. As I have said before, we are not a super rich program that has hotel-like hospitals catering to the financially elite. We take ALL comers without question and guess what - that means a lot of times you have to wait. Many hospitals take indigent care, but few take ALL comers regardless.

                                                We take indigent patients from all over Texas including, yes Houston and surrounding communities, all border states, and foreign countries without any regard to the financial impact it has on our program. It isn't a sound business principle, but it is the way we do it.

                                                Imagine trying to provide the bulk of indigent and low income care for the city of Houston with only Methodist or St. Luke's.

                                                =================================================

                                                That's my point though, in Houston we DO take care of the indigent (LBJ, Ben Taub HCHD, etc) and the vets (VA) but we also have the privates as well (Hermann, St Lukes). TCH will also accept ANY child that comes through the door regardless of socioeconomics.

                                                My whole point is that the TMC has just about every kind of hospital you can imagine, that the specialty and subspecialty opportunities are bar-none, and that there are so many different kinds of pathologies and types of patients here that it makes the TMC an incredible place to learn-- and in my estimation, the best medical learning experience in this region.

                                                There is no doubt that UTSW is a top notch program, and in fact its IM is more highly regarded tham any in the TMC, this is a fact. What is also a fact is that when you're looking at IM fellowships or non-IM specialties, the TMC is unparalleled in this region in its training opportunities.

                                                But to be honest, you can't go wrong in either Dallas or Houston. Its just for me, I prefer the way the TMC is set up. But the only way for prospectives to find out is to check it out themselves.
                                                 
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                                                Fantasy Sports

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                                                  dochuffman said:
                                                  if it is just the TMC then would those TMC advocates choose UT Houston over UTSW? (just curious)

                                                  I would for certain fellowships (cardiology, CT surgery, ER, trauma surgery, oncology, neurowhatever etc) but not for others (endocrinology, opthalmology, a few others are better at UTSW). But if you are talking about an IM resident trying to get a fellowship, then out of sheer chance they're more likely to find a better fellowship in the TMC. If you know you want to do, say, endocrinology, then going to UTSW and staying there is your best bet.
                                                   

                                                  dochuffman

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                                                    Fantasy Sports said:
                                                    I would for certain fellowships (cardiology, CT surgery, ER, trauma surgery, oncology, neurowhatever etc) but not for others (endocrinology, opthalmology, a few others are better at UTSW). But if you are talking about an IM resident trying to get a fellowship, then out of sheer chance they're more likely to find a better fellowship in the TMC. If you know you want to do, say, endocrinology, then going to UTSW and staying there is your best bet.

                                                    Interesting...very interesting. I interviewed at all these texas programs and they were all great (UTSW, Baylor houston and dallas, UT Houston, UTSA, UTMB, Scott and White). Isn't it great to be a Texan with so many options!
                                                     

                                                    Fantasy Sports

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                                                      dochuffman said:
                                                      Interesting...very interesting. I interviewed at all these texas programs and they were all great (UTSW, Baylor houston and dallas, UT Houston, UTSA, UTMB, Scott and White). Isn't it great to be a Texan with so many options!

                                                      Definitely, and with a couple more schools slated up to open over the next decade, things are looking on the up and up in TX!
                                                       
                                                      I interviewed at both programs, and neither program was completely forthcoming about fellowship placement.

                                                      1. Baylor gives you a list of programs their graduating residents have matched at over the past six years, without indicating when they matched or how many matched at given programs.

                                                      2. UTSW sends you a list of places their 2002 and 2003 classes matched at. On the UTSW residency website, there's a list of where 2004 graduating residents went, but it's suspiciously short--there are 35 or so residents listed from a program with 50+ residents per class. The 2004 class has had two fellowship application cycles to go somewhere. What gives?

                                                      Since we have an assemblage of people for and against each program, anybody care to fill in the info? Is there a reason these programs are more opaque about fellowship match results compared to all the other programs I interviewed with? Can somebody point me to a place where I can get the breakdown of where Baylor residents have been going more recently? And what's going on with that last UTSW fellowship list?
                                                       

                                                      cwy

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                                                        Before I start, I want to point out that I am in no way affiliated with either institution, and I have never even lived in Texas. Just want to shed some light on this from the perspective of those outside of Texas.

                                                        I am almost surprise that there is even a discussion regarding which one is the stronger IM PROGRAM. I have never even though of Baylor as in the same tier as UTSW. UTSW has one of the strongest IM programs in the country, period. This is a view shared by most in the academic world. I go to a top 5 med school (not that this matters, just want to provide a little insight as to what the less biased faculty of top academic centers outside of Texas think), and when I met with the PD of the IM program at my school to discuss my IM application in the beginning of the year, he gave me some advice of different programs in the country. He suggested that I should strongly consider UTSW, as it is regarded as among one of the top IM programs by faculty and fellowship directors, comparable to the likes of Michigan, Wash U, Hopkins, Duke, etc. in terms of their program quality. Many of the UTSW IM graduates are highly recruited by fellowship programs at my institution (I've worked with quite a few of them). I then proceeded to ask about Baylor, since that was the other Texas program I could think of at that time. He told me that Baylor is a strong program, but not regarded in the same league as UTSW in terms of academic reputation for the IM residency. He said that he would put it in the same category as other strong programs like Wisconsin, Colorado, Maryland, UNC-Chapel Hill, etc.

                                                        Now, I must confess that I didn't apply to either one of the programs, as I'm not interested in moving to Texas. The point of my post is that true, there are more fellowship positions at TMC by number compared to UTSW. However, (1) the UTSW fellowships are still some of the top academically, and (2) if you want to get fellowship positions at top programs outside of the TMC, you would be at a much bigger advantage coming from UTSW (remember that without much objective selection criteria, residency program reputation actually plays a pretty bigh part in fellowship applications). Just something that you might want to consider.

                                                        Disclaimer: the IM PD at my school is not from Texas and not affiliated in any way with either institution.
                                                         

                                                        Pili

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                                                          cwy said:
                                                          Before I start, I want to point out that I am in no way affiliated with either institution, and I have never even lived in Texas. Just want to shed some light on this from the perspective of those outside of Texas.

                                                          I am almost surprise that there is even a discussion regarding which one is the stronger IM PROGRAM. I have never even though of Baylor as in the same tier as UTSW. UTSW has one of the strongest IM programs in the country, period. This is a view shared by most in the academic world. I go to a top 5 med school (not that this matters, just want to provide a little insight as to what the less biased faculty of top academic centers outside of Texas think), and when I met with the PD of the IM program at my school to discuss my IM application in the beginning of the year, he gave me some advice of different programs in the country. He suggested that I should strongly consider UTSW, as it is regarded as among one of the top IM programs by faculty and fellowship directors, comparable to the likes of Michigan, Wash U, Hopkins, Duke, etc. in terms of their program quality. Many of the UTSW IM graduates are highly recruited by fellowship programs at my institution (I've worked with quite a few of them). I then proceeded to ask about Baylor, since that was the other Texas program I could think of at that time. He told me that Baylor is a strong program, but not regarded in the same league as UTSW in terms of academic reputation for the IM residency. He said that he would put it in the same category as other strong programs like Wisconsin, Colorado, Maryland, UNC-Chapel Hill, etc.

                                                          Now, I must confess that I didn't apply to either one of the programs, as I'm not interested in moving to Texas. The point of my post is that true, there are more fellowship positions at TMC by number compared to UTSW. However, (1) the UTSW fellowships are still some of the top academically, and (2) if you want to get fellowship positions at top programs outside of the TMC, you would be at a much bigger advantage coming from UTSW (remember that without much objective selection criteria, residency program reputation actually plays a pretty bigh part in fellowship applications). Just something that you might want to consider.

                                                          Disclaimer: the IM PD at my school is not from Texas and not affiliated in any way with either institution.
                                                          I agree that UTSW is perceived as a better program outside of Texas, but to put Baylor in the same league as U Maryland and the likes is delusional. Baylor is a top 10-top 15 institution. I think only those that have visited the TMC truly have an idea of how immense it is.
                                                           

                                                          UTSouthwestern

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                                                            aboogabooga said:
                                                            I interviewed at both programs, and neither program was completely forthcoming about fellowship placement.

                                                            1. Baylor gives you a list of programs their graduating residents have matched at over the past six years, without indicating when they matched or how many matched at given programs.

                                                            2. UTSW sends you a list of places their 2002 and 2003 classes matched at. On the UTSW residency website, there's a list of where 2004 graduating residents went, but it's suspiciously short--there are 35 or so residents listed from a program with 50+ residents per class. The 2004 class has had two fellowship application cycles to go somewhere. What gives?

                                                            Since we have an assemblage of people for and against each program, anybody care to fill in the info? Is there a reason these programs are more opaque about fellowship match results compared to all the other programs I interviewed with? Can somebody point me to a place where I can get the breakdown of where Baylor residents have been going more recently? And what's going on with that last UTSW fellowship list?

                                                            The last fellowship list is not complete. I knew quite a few of the people that aren't listed when they were interns and I saw them at the graduation party last year. I have sent a departmental e-mail to their site administrator to complete the list. I believe that the breakdown of the rest of their class falls as 2 to ophthamology, 2 to nephrology, 3 to cardiology, 3 to gastroenterology, 2 to pulmonary and critical care, 1 each to allergy/immunology and endocrinology, and the rest to private practice.
                                                             

                                                            anesthesia1

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                                                              This thread is becoming silly. BCM is the stronger of the two medical schools but going back to my original statement, UTSW is the best medicine program in TX. I do not believe that US NEWS rankings are the greatest thing in the world but you will see UTSW in the top ten every year and Baylor is never in the top twenty (see the IM rankings). Deans around the country are asked to rank these places. They don't know everything about these programs but what they do know is the overall perception and reputation (accurate or not). There is a reason for this! Baylor's chair Stephen Greenberg is not that strong (I am not the only person who thinks this...his credentials are not big time ID...he was an interim chair for the longest period of time). On the other hand, UTSW recruited one of the IM superstars in Greg Fitz. UTSW has had probably one of the top 4 most stable chair positions in the country (see how many chairs they have had over the last 40 years as compared to Baylor). Fitz is a big time researcher, amazing clinician and former chief resident at UCSF. Greenberg does not have those kind of credentials (Greenberg went to med school at Maryland and did his IM residency there then fellowship at Baylor. These are ok places but Fitz went to med school at Duke, his residency and fellowship at UCSF). Comparing head on there is no comparison. I am just giving you guys the facts ok. I don't give a rats a... about IM or either one of these programs because I am going into anesthesia in 5 months when I finish IM.
                                                               

                                                              anesthesia1

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                                                                CWY, your thoughts are very well said and it is clear to me that you know what you are talking about. I think that is exactly how the two are perceived outside of Texas. I too have no affiliation with either one but give credit where it is deserved.
                                                                 
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                                                                Fantasy Sports

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                                                                  cwy said:
                                                                  He told me that Baylor is a strong program, but not regarded in the same league as UTSW in terms of academic reputation for the IM residency. He said that he would put it in the same category as other strong programs like Wisconsin, Colorado, Maryland, UNC-Chapel Hill, etc.

                                                                  I at no point stated that IM at BCM or UTH is stronger than at UTSW, what I did say is that if you're interested in fellowships, with a few exceptions, the TMC dominates in terms of both quality and quantity.

                                                                  And while I will not dispute that the programs you listed are strong, the PDs on my away rotations told me they view BCM more along the lines of UNC and Colorado (agreed), but also with other strong programs like UAB, Emory, UCSD, NYU. And though US News is by no means a good barometer, it seems to concur with the PD evals.
                                                                   

                                                                  usmlestep12

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                                                                    Since I am a non-texan interested in doing residency at TMC this thread is like a hidden treasure for me...
                                                                    Well I know about both Baylor & UT-H (did not interview at Southwestern)
                                                                    From what I perceive is that TMC has ample oppurtunities...both Baylor as well as UT-H..in terms of clinical as well as basic science training...
                                                                    probably biggest in the world that I have ever heard of or thought of anywhere else...
                                                                    And it's growing by leaps and bounds day by day with the fundings and donations amounting to millions....
                                                                    Also the number of experts in their respective feilds are greater and more at TMC than at anywhere else in the country barring Boston...
                                                                    If you are considering Cards or Heam-Oncology after internal medicine then TMC is the best place to train in terms of training and future prospects for fellowships...
                                                                    Also just look at the cutting edge research work going on at TMC both in clinical and basic science areas...
                                                                    Some of the top who's who of Cards in the world are at TMC ..and same is true for other medicine sub-specialities...
                                                                    I think TMC is an amazing place...it's a city in itself...
                                                                    you can have an idea of the international referrals that the centre would be getting by just looking at the growth of hotel & hospitality industry around the region...
                                                                    overall I got a feeling that TMC is a wonderful place to get trained at ....
                                                                     

                                                                    Pili

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                                                                      anesthesia1 said:
                                                                      This thread is becoming silly. BCM is the stronger of the two medical schools but going back to my original statement, UTSW is the best medicine program in TX. I do not believe that US NEWS rankings are the greatest thing in the world but you will see UTSW in the top ten every year and Baylor is never in the top twenty (see the IM rankings). Deans around the country are asked to rank these places. They don't know everything about these programs but what they do know is the overall perception and reputation (accurate or not). There is a reason for this! Baylor's chair Stephen Greenberg is not that strong (I am not the only person who thinks this...his credentials are not big time ID...he was an interim chair for the longest period of time). On the other hand, UTSW recruited one of the IM superstars in Greg Fitz. UTSW has had probably one of the top 4 most stable chair positions in the country (see how many chairs they have had over the last 40 years as compared to Baylor). Fitz is a big time researcher, amazing clinician and former chief resident at UCSF. Greenberg does not have those kind of credentials (Greenberg went to med school at Maryland and did his IM residency there then fellowship at Baylor. These are ok places but Fitz went to med school at Duke, his residency and fellowship at UCSF). Comparing head on there is no comparison. I am just giving you guys the facts ok. I don't give a rats a... about IM or either one of these programs because I am going into anesthesia in 5 months when I finish IM.
                                                                      What! Tell me this post is a joke. I am a UTSWer myself, but to say that Dr, Greenberg is anything but a fabulous chairman! And to quote where he went for med school as an argument! I know idiotic people that went to Harvard and UCSF, and I know people in average med schools that consistently scored in the 99 percentile in every shelf and every board, who for various reasons did not apply to the tops. And, the places where Dr. Greenberg trained are anything but average.
                                                                      You are one snobby poster!
                                                                       

                                                                      cwy

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                                                                        Pili said:
                                                                        I agree that UTSW is perceived as a better program outside of Texas, but to put Baylor in the same league as U Maryland and the likes is delusional. Baylor is a top 10-top 15 institution. I think only those that have visited the TMC truly have an idea of how immense it is.

                                                                        Unfortunately, it seems to me that many people don't understand that top hospital doesn't necessarily mean top program. No doubt, TMC is an incredible place, being the largest medical center in North America. However, we are talking about academic reputation and quality here, which are not measured by how many buildings you have. Baylor may be a top 10-top 15 INSTITUTION as a whole, it's IM department and residency program is certainly not. It is more in the 25-35 range. If you don't think so, let's just count out the obvious ones that have better academic reputations than the Baylor program: Harvard x 3, JHU, Wash U, Duke, Penn, NYP x 2, UCSF, UCLA, Stanford, Seattle, Chicago, Michigan, Northwestern, UTSW, Yale, Vanderbilt. That's already 19. Then you still have a whole list of others that are more similar to Baylor in terms of reputation such as Mayo, UCSD, Emory, Pittsburg, Wisconsin, UNC, etc. That's why I think it is more in the 25-35 range at best.
                                                                         

                                                                        cwy

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                                                                          Fantasy Sports said:
                                                                          I at no point stated that IM at BCM or UTH is stronger than at UTSW, what I did say is that if you're interested in fellowships, with a few exceptions, the TMC dominates in terms of both quality and quantity.

                                                                          And while I will not dispute that the programs you listed are strong, the PDs on my away rotations told me they view BCM more along the lines of UNC and Colorado (agreed), but also with other strong programs like UAB, Emory, UCSD, NYU. And though US News is by no means a good barometer, it seems to concur with the PD evals.

                                                                          True, TMC has more top fellowship programs compared to UTSW, and thus Baylor grads would have an advantage for these positions. But UTSW grads would have an advantage over Baylor grads for the other top fellowship spots IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. That's why I think you would give yourself more opportunities for top fellowship positions by training at UTSW compared to Baylor.

                                                                          Also, I agree with the list of programs that you have. I think those are some of the programs that are similar to Baylor in terms of their academic reputation.
                                                                           

                                                                          Fantasy Sports

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                                                                            cwy said:
                                                                            True, TMC has more top fellowship programs compared to UTSW, and thus Baylor grads would have an advantage for these positions. But UTSW grads would have an advantage over Baylor grads for the other top fellowship spots IN THE REST OF THE COUNTRY. That's why I think you would give yourself more opportunities for top fellowship positions by training at UTSW compared to Baylor.

                                                                            Also, I agree with the list of programs that you have. I think those are some of the programs that are similar to Baylor in terms of their academic reputation.

                                                                            I wonder if that's true, the only way to see is to compare match lists. I only have a physical copy of both Houston programs. If someone has an online link I would love to compare straight up.

                                                                            From my understanding, both TX programs tend to keep their own for fellowships. But again, Id prefer to see the match list comparison first.
                                                                             

                                                                            EvilNewbie

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                                                                              Do you know why the REAL reason Baylor lost Methodist? Baylor wanted a larger cut from Methodist for carrying the Baylor name... Methodist said take a hike and in fact is working with UT-Houston right now for residents to go into their hospital. Baylor is trying to secure spots INSIDE of UT-Houston affiliated hospitals because they don't have a teaching hospital. In fact, someone at St. Luke mentioned they prefer UT-Houston to Baylor residents in fellowships anyday but it was more PROFITABLE to carry both in training. Baylor has tried to spread misinformation about why they lost Methodist (it was their main TEACHING hospital... you don't just SUDDENLY lose one and say it was their fault). I talked to a few of the doctors (not residents) out there and their ideas are that Baylor (some don't even Baylor existed) is NOW not as comparable to UTSW (which continues to grow). Don't get me wrong, I am not going to go to UTSW for residency, I plan on going to somewhere else... but when I do become an attending, Baylor doesn't cut it like UTSW or UT-Houston (a notion more than a few already share)...
                                                                               

                                                                              Pili

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                                                                                EvilNewbie said:
                                                                                Don't believe that Baylor - Houston is better than UTSW. Baylor LOST their teaching hospital because of their oversized ego AND in fact, lost a large number of doctors AND departments who transferred away from Baylor to go to the teaching hospital. UTSW is stable all around and has alot of big names. Baylor - Dallas is a private hospital affiliated with Baylor and it's an okay place. UT - Houston is very nice AND massive with a boat-load of hospitals. I can't believe people are saying Baylor-Houston is good after that fiasco. Geez...
                                                                                Do you have a bad experience regarding Baylor? Care to share? It would help those of us ready to do the ranking :laugh:
                                                                                 

                                                                                bigtuna

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                                                                                  I hope everyone realizes that this is complete misinformation. This is not at all the reason that baylor disaffiliated with methodist and methodist was never the primary teaching hospital for baylor. In terms of internal medicine, Ben Taub, VA, and st lukes have always been a bigger part of the experience than methodist.

                                                                                  I do not want to step on any toes but I think the people who are mentioning UT houston in the same breath as baylor and UTSW are smoking crack. In my opinion, UT houston is probably only the 5th best IM program in the state with UTSW, baylor, UTMB, UTSA, and baylor dallas all being stronger training programs. Remember, one of the most important qualities of a residency program is the strength of the other residents as you end up learning the most from your upper level residents.
                                                                                   

                                                                                  Fantasy Sports

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                                                                                    bigtuna said:
                                                                                    In my opinion, UT houston is probably only the 5th best IM program in the state with UTSW, baylor, UTMB, UTSA, and baylor dallas all being stronger training programs.

                                                                                    Maybe UTSA, but you couldn't be more wrong on UTMB and Baylor-Dallas in regards to IM...
                                                                                     

                                                                                    Pili

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                                                                                      bigtuna said:
                                                                                      I hope everyone realizes that this is complete misinformation. This is not at all the reason that baylor disaffiliated with methodist and methodist was never the primary teaching hospital for baylor. In terms of internal medicine, Ben Taub, VA, and st lukes have always been a bigger part of the experience than methodist.

                                                                                      I do not want to step on any toes but I think the people who are mentioning UT houston in the same breath as baylor and UTSW are smoking crack. In my opinion, UT houston is probably only the 5th best IM program in the state with UTSW, baylor, UTMB, UTSA, and baylor dallas all being stronger training programs. Remember, one of the most important qualities of a residency program is the strength of the other residents as you end up learning the most from your upper level residents.
                                                                                      I have to agree with bigtuna that, albeit UT-Houston is probably the second best medical school in the state (along with Baylor, with UTSW being number 1), the IM residents are among the worst at UT. I am not sure why that is. UT also has outstanding residents, it's a very heterogeneous mix. I think this is improving though, and when I interviewed there the PD said the applicant pool this year was excellent. I think it's a matter of someone having established a tradition of taking way too many IMGs, and the probation years. It's obvious to me that UTH is atop school and that the residents it attarcts will show that in the coming years. The PD is making a big effort in that regard. Baylor OTOH has top residents.
                                                                                       

                                                                                      EvilNewbie

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                                                                                        No, no bad experiences with Baylor. I think it was a good program but has been losing ground for the last couple of years. How Baylor turns out the next couple of years is anybody's guess? It depends on how they move forward, if you great confidence from your interviews on their vision for the future, then by all means rank them high. Personally, I can't say how well they will do in the future (and I am not going to find out) but they may end up being superstars after all of this. You all will definitely get excellent training at Baylor or UTSW and make an excellent physician regardless. Personally, I am looking at more NE hospitals and some in the midwest, that's why Texas isn't on my list anymore... I interviewed in most of the Texas programs (cause before, that's where I thought I would be) but Texas isn't my cup of tea anymore...

                                                                                        as to why Methodist was lost... this information was gathered from partly Baylor, St. Luke's, and UT-Houston attendings... so take it with a grain of salt since this is secondhand information...
                                                                                         

                                                                                        Fantasy Sports

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                                                                                          EvilNewbie said:
                                                                                          as to why Methodist was lost... this information was gathered from partly Baylor, St. Luke's, and UT-Houston attendings... so take it with a grain of salt since this is secondhand information...

                                                                                          Well, the problem is the second-hand info was patently false and Im not sure how anyone could be so wrong:

                                                                                          "Methodist said take a hike and in fact is working with UT-Houston right now for residents to go into their hospital"

                                                                                          Actually, BCM residents will continue to go through Methodist in certain departments (which from what my roomie told me, the only depts that shifted over right now are Medicine and Surgery). If UTH residents get to as well, the more the merrier. It would be just like St. Lukes. So that's just a lie.

                                                                                          "Baylor is trying to secure spots INSIDE of UT-Houston affiliated hospitals because they don't have a teaching hospital."

                                                                                          Again another lie, there is absolutely no chance Hermann is going to let significant numbers of BCM students rotate through our hospitals. BCM doesnt have a teaching hospital? Thats another lie. Methodist wasnt even BCM's primary teaching hospital BEFORE the split-- it was a close 3rd. The bigtime players were/are Ben Taub, VA, TCH, and now St. Luke's. Hardly not having a teaching hospital (they have 4! that's more than any other med school in TX)-- especially when you consider BCM is building its own clinic.

                                                                                          Honestly EvilNewbie, not a single thing you said is accurate. Im not sure what your hatred towards BCM/TMC is, but its completely unfounded. But it would be nice if you wouldn't spread rampant lies, especially considering how you are not even a student in the TMC.

                                                                                          So to go around spreading lies about the TMC is just plain dumb. There is a reason no school in TX wanted to partner up with Methodist and that they had to go all the way to NYC to find a partner (and only because they are part of the same health system!). Please get your facts straight next time before posting :rolleyes:
                                                                                           

                                                                                          Fantasy Sports

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                                                                                            dochuffman said:
                                                                                            What negatives do you percieve about UTMB and Baylor Dallas versus UT Houston (just curious)

                                                                                            Its not really the negatives about UTMB and Baylor-Dallas, but rather the positives of UTH (location in TMC, strength of Hermann hospital, solid leadership in IM especially fellowships). UTH is rising in terms of IM, and there is a big push from faculty to strengthen IM to levels that the fellowships are at. While UTH IM has not been good in the past, there is a new push to limit the number of IMGs, DOs, etc and in terms of faculty recruitment.

                                                                                            I can speak about UTMB from personal experience, but Baylor-Dallas only from having friends in Dallas.
                                                                                             

                                                                                            EvilNewbie

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                                                                                              Dang, didn't mean to set someone off with my remarks. It seems you really like Baylor and that's fine, I don't have anything against Baylor, it's just not my choice (that's my opinion). The rampant lies, well I guess truth is in the eye of the beholder... you have your side.. I have mine... whose right? Really at this point anymore who cares anymore, I am just stating what I heard through the grapevine? (and I stated I heard as secondhand information) As for facts, Methodist is a 1,000 bed hospital the Ben (~600), childrens (~400), and the VA is over 1,000 - for it to not be a primary teaching facility by Baylor (I think the numbers speak for themselves). Don't get me wrong, the VA is a major (critical even) learning center and its among the best in the nation (no dispute about it). I don't want to drudge the issue on, I'll say that Baylor is an excellent choice (as I said in my previous post)... it's just in troubled times right now and how it proceeds should be in consideration of would-be applications.... I will leave it at that...
                                                                                               

                                                                                              bigtuna

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                                                                                                "I have to agree with bigtuna that, albeit UT-Houston is probably the second best medical school in the state (along with Baylor, with UTSW being number 1"


                                                                                                :) I just can't let this one slide. Pili - honestly, are you a student at UTH? I don't think that there is anyone else in the world who believes this.
                                                                                                 
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