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Most kids are influenced by early contacts with other kids who are different than they. If kids build relationships with others who are of other races, that's probably not going to change much as they get older, they will see people of other races as just people--different culturally---but potentially as friends. The other truth is that EVERYONE thinks of themselves as better than someone else---but that doesn't HAVE to be racially motivated. Most people don't hate others who don't threaten them--but fear is often racially inspired. The KKK, white nationalists and nazis can usually trace their extreme biases and hatreds to fear and threats---not because Pappy or Uncle Jim Bob told them to hate people of color. Sure---for some that's enough---no doubt. But for most of us?
Racism is all about 2+2=9....
 
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Dr.Sticks

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Most kids are influenced by early contacts with other kids who are different than they. If kids build relationships with others who are of other races, that's probably not going to change much as they get older, they will see people of other races as just people--different culturally---but potentially as friends. The other truth is that EVERYONE thinks of themselves as better than someone else---but that doesn't HAVE to be racially motivated. Most people don't hate others who don't threaten them--but fear is often racially inspired. The KKK, white nationalists and nazis can usually trace their extreme biases and hatreds to fear and threats---not because Pappy or Uncle Jim Bob told them to hate people of color. Sure---for some that's enough---no doubt. But for most of us?
Racism is all about 2+2=9....
To them they fear change, they fear a world where people will look diverse, they by misinformation fear they are losing their culture.
Studying basic evolution just clearly shows how primitive of a feeling racism is.
 

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Yes it is. Especially when the line for what constitutes hateful or racist things keeps moving further and further to the left. Is expressing support for ending the DACA program or building the wall hateful? What about expressing a desire that affirmative action be ended? Saying "all lives matter?" In a world where medical schools are giving applicants the option of identifying as a gender other than male or female, and allowing them to make up their own pronouns that they will then be addressed by, there is no limit to what can be considered hateful or offensive.
Whether something is hateful or not depends as much on how the person says it as the content. A person can express their political stance in intelligent terms without directing hate or prejudice at anyone or any specific groups.
I do think the safest thing to do is to not say anything political at all on the internet. It does not serve any purpose.
 
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Yes it is. Especially when the line for what constitutes hateful or racist things keeps moving further and further to the left. Is expressing support for ending the DACA program or building the wall hateful? What about expressing a desire that affirmative action be ended? Saying "all lives matter?" In a world where medical schools are giving applicants the option of identifying as a gender other than male or female, and allowing them to make up their own pronouns that they will then be addressed by, there is no limit to what can be considered hateful or offensive.
Yup. I've been accused of being racist because I suggested that illegal immigrants make things more difficult for legal immigrants.
 
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Whether something is hateful or not depends as much on how the person says it as the content. A person can express their political stance in intelligent terms without directing hate or prejudice at anyone or any specific groups.
I do think the safest thing to do is to not say anything political at all on the internet. It does not serve any purpose.
When certain groups of our generation have decided that anyone who disagrees with them is racist, it doesn't matter how logically and calmly you state your position, nor how well reasoned it is.
 

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When certain groups of our generation have decided that anyone who disagrees with them is racist, it doesn't matter how logically and calmly you state your position, nor how well reasoned it is.
That goes for both sides. Some people will always be offended when you disagree with them, no matter what you say. But if you explain yourself logically, fewer people would be misunderstanding you.
 

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That goes for both sides. Some people will always be offended when you disagree with them, no matter what you say. But if you explain yourself logically, less people would be misunderstanding you.
Yup. Goes both ways.

And my whole point is that those people don't care how logically you present your arguments. The second you disagree with them, they start calling you racist, etc.
 
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Yup. Goes both ways.

And my whole point is that those people don't care how logically you present your arguments. The second you disagree with them, they start calling you racist, etc.
Yes, yes they do.
Which goes to my point that it's the safest to not say anything at all :rolleyes:
 

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Yes, yes they do.
Which goes to my point that it's the safest to not say anything at all :rolleyes:
Not sure what the eyeroll is for. I agree with you there. I was responding to your assertion that if you present your argument logically, fewer people are likely to misunderstand you. That was a thing you said that I qualified.
 
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That goes for both sides. Some people will always be offended when you disagree with them, no matter what you say. But if you explain yourself logically, fewer people would be misunderstanding you.
Unfortunately, only one side controls medical school admissions. So, better to keep one's mouth shut.
 

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Unfortunately, only one side controls medical school admissions. So, better to keep one's mouth shut.
I guess it can be thought of like this: physicians ought not express political stances in a clinical setting because their personal political stances do not matter when they treat patients.
 

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I guess it can be thought of like this: physicians ought not express political stances in a clinical setting because their personal political stances do not matter when they treat patients.
Med school isn't a clinical setting though....and I sure seem to get a lot of medical association emails that are heavily political with the assumption that I agree with them

*edit....med school, as in the process of getting accepted and then dealing with admin
 
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Med school isn't a clinical setting though....and I sure seem to get a lot of medical association emails that are heavily political with the assumption that I agree with them

*edit....med school, as in the process of getting accepted and then dealing with admin
I'm naive but I can see how it makes sense that Adcoms might expect us, as aspiring doctors, to learn not to bring our personal opinions into the professional setting related to medicine like the admission process. Not saying it should or should not be that way.
 

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Yes it is. Especially when the line for what constitutes hateful or racist things keeps moving further and further to the left. Is expressing support for ending the DACA program or building the wall hateful? What about expressing a desire that affirmative action be ended? Saying "all lives matter?" In a world where medical schools are giving applicants the option of identifying as a gender other than male or female, and allowing them to make up their own pronouns that they will then be addressed by, there is no limit to what can be considered hateful or offensive.
^^^ this deserves so many likes!

And I took some time writing up a further reply, but I had to stop because of fear of having my words twisted. I'll just leave you guys with one thing, I'm originally from Chicago.
 
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I'm naive but I can see how it makes sense that Adcoms might expect us, as aspiring doctors, to learn not to bring our personal opinions into the professional setting related to medicine like the admission process. Not saying it should or should not be that way.
Well you have to put those opinions aside

You can't be a competent doctor if you have biases against people.

I don't think a Nazi can be a competent doctor for example, the Nazi will not treat Jewish patients like he would White patients.

Or a homophobe, and I dont mean "I believe in traditional marriage", but an outright homophobe..

Or a transphobe, or an islamaphobe..

A job in any kind of service field, be it law enforcement, EMS/FIRE, Healthcare, retail, it isn't for people like them.
 
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Well you have to put those opinions aside

You can't be a competent doctor if you have biases against people.

I don't think a Nazi can be a competent doctor for example, the Nazi will not treat Jewish patients like he would White patients.

Or a homophobe, and I dont mean "I believe in traditional marriage", but an outright homophobe..

Or a transphobe, or an islamaphobe..

A job in any kind of service field, be it law enforcement, EMS/FIRE, Healthcare, retail, it isn't for people like them.
I think you misread my post -- I agree with your points.
 

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Well you have to put those opinions aside

You can't be a competent doctor if you have biases against people.

I don't think a Nazi can be a competent doctor for example, the Nazi will not treat Jewish patients like he would White patients.

Or a homophobe, and I dont mean "I believe in traditional marriage", but an outright homophobe..

Or a transphobe, or an islamaphobe..
True. But people will always have biases no matter what. That should hopefully not impact care, but it will make doctors think "drug seeker" and things similar to that.

A job in any kind of service field, be it law enforcement, EMS/FIRE, Healthcare, retail, it isn't for people like them.
For curiosity's sake, I went on Stormfront (the White Nationalist forum) to see what it is on there (I'm Jewish). There was a large thread asking what members did for a living. There were in fact a lot of first responders and nurses on there. It always made me wonder if anyone at the hospital is racist. But on the bright side, I don't know because no one has given any reason to think so.
 

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Well you have to put those opinions aside

You can't be a competent doctor if you have biases against people.

I don't think a Nazi can be a competent doctor for example, the Nazi will not treat Jewish patients like he would White patients.

Or a homophobe, and I dont mean "I believe in traditional marriage", but an outright homophobe..

Or a transphobe, or an islamaphobe..

A job in any kind of service field, be it law enforcement, EMS/FIRE, Healthcare, retail, it isn't for people like them.
For someone who claims to hate prejudice, you have a really authoritarian and restrictive view on who should be allowed to work in certain fields
 

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I think you misread my post -- I agree with your points.
You are right, I did.
True. But people will always have biases no matter what. That should hopefully not impact care, but it will make doctors think "drug seeker" and things similar to that.



For curiosity's sake, I went on Stormfront (the White Nationalist forum) to see what it was on there (I'm Jewish). There was a large thread asking what members did for a living. There were in fact a lot of first responders and nurses on there. It always made me wonder if anyone at the hospital is racist. But on the bright side, I don't know because no one has given any reason to think so.
Racism is a closet thing in this era
 

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For someone who claims to hate prejudice, you have a really authoritarian and restrictive view on who should be allowed to work in certain fields
I am not saying they shouldn't; I am however saying they wouldn't be able to do their jobs right.

Think of it this way; If a cop is a racist; Do you think they can do their jobs right?
Don't you think they will ve more inclined to be harsher on minorities?
 

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For someone who claims to hate prejudice, you have a really authoritarian and restrictive view on who should be allowed to work in certain fields
I can appreciate his point though, in regards to field that involve life and death. But as long as people follow the Hippocratic oath and thus do no harm, and do best for the patient no matter what, then it's okay.

Racism is a closet thing in this era
It is. But people need to ask themselves what actually constitutes racism? Is it believing that you are superior to another race, or is it made up of prejudices (even subconscious)? For example, if you were walking down the street in Chicago, would you feel threatened if you saw teenagers from the wealthy North Shore walking toward you?
 
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Well you have to put those opinions aside

You can't be a competent doctor if you have biases against people.

I don't think a Nazi can be a competent doctor for example, the Nazi will not treat Jewish patients like he would White patients.

Or a homophobe, and I dont mean "I believe in traditional marriage", but an outright homophobe..

Or a transphobe, or an islamaphobe..

A job in any kind of service field, be it law enforcement, EMS/FIRE, Healthcare, retail, it isn't for people like them.
With my limited experience in healthcare I have not knowingly seen anyone discriminate or treat differently based on those factors. Not that those definitely couldn't impact care, though.

I have seen many examples of differential treatment due to perceived socioeconomic status, physical characteristics, and mental status.
 

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I am not saying they shouldn't; I am however saying they wouldn't be able to do their jobs right.

Think of it this way; If a cop is a racist; Do you think they can do their jobs right?
Don't you think they will ve more inclined to be harsher on minorities?
In the same way that a black cop can faithfully defend a kkk rally from attack, a racist can actually choose to provide competent care to those they don't like.

I know a number of racist tradesmen that do good work for everyone, most people like money more than they dislike others
 

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With my limited experience in healthcare I have not knowingly seen anyone discriminate or treat differently based on those factors. Not that those definitely couldn't impact care, though.

I have seen many examples of differential treatment due to perceived socioeconomic status, physical characteristics, and mental status.
That's why it takes special kinds of people to be in certain fields. For instance, emergency medicine physicians have to deal with patients often coming from a low perceived socioeconomic status as well as with drug abuse, crime, etc... Psychiatrists often need to deal with addiction as well as significant mental illness (not just simple depression or anxiety). I have great respect for the physicians that deal with that day in and day out.
 
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In the same way that a black cop can faithfully defend a kkk rally from attack, a racist can actually choose to provide competent care to those they don't like.

I know a number of racist tradesmen that do good work for everyone, most people like money more than they dislike others
Doctors in Israel treat patients from Egypt and Iran who actively want them dead. Part of being in healthcare is putting those biases aside and treating the patient as a person and not their personalities.
 
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But people will always have biases no matter what.
That is true, and anyone can be a patient, including homophobic, transphobic, or islamophobic people. But having biases is different from having total disrespect. The magnitude of bias is important. All of us have biases, but not all of us have extremely strong disgust for particular groups of people to the point that it fundamentally influences the decisions we have to make about their lives, if we could.
 
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sb247

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That's why it takes special kinds of people to be in certain fields. For instance, emergency medicine physicians have to deal with patients often coming from a low perceived socioeconomic status as well as with drug abuse, crime, etc... Psychiatrists often need to deal with addiction as well as significant mental illness (not just simple depression or anxiety). I have great respect for the physicians that deal with that day in and day out.
It's also important to suss out why people from different economic situations are treated differently. I'm a jerk if I just don't run that cxr because I figure poor people's aortas don't dissect. I'm not a jerk if I realize you won't fill the expensive name brand trulicity because you don't have insurance but you will fill the generic insulin
 

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That is true, and anyone can be a patient, including homophobic, transphobic, or islamophobic people. But having biases is different from having total disrespect. The magnitude of bias is important. All of us have biases, but not all of us have extremely strong disgust for particular groups of people to the point that it fundamentally influences the decisions we have to make about their lives, if we could.
You mean like extremely strong disgust for particular groups that fundamentally influence what career decisions you think they can make about their lives?
 

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You mean like extremely strong disgust for particular groups that fundamentally influence what career decisions you think they can make about their lives?
Hey, Adcoms are dying to find any reason to reject an applicant... It doesn't take extremely strong disgust.
 

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Hey, Adcoms are dying to find any reason to reject an applicant... It doesn't take extremely strong disgust.
And with the current environment being overrun with leftist SJWs, I'm scared to think what reasons people can be rejected (not to medical school per se, but just about anything). It's almost impossible to not offend anyone these days. I should probably stop wearing the Medline Generation Pink gloves because it's bound to offend someone.
 
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You mean like extremely strong disgust for particular groups that fundamentally influence what career decisions you think they can make about their lives?
I didn't read your previous comment. Makes sense.
 
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I'm getting a lot of mixed advice on this thread. Do I need to take down my Taliban support videos or not?
Taliban should be fine. Hamas will probably give you a leg up. Just make sure it's not ISIS. ;)
 

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In the same way that a black cop can faithfully defend a kkk rally from attack, a racist can actually choose to provide competent care to those they don't like.

I know a number of racist tradesmen that do good work for everyone, most people like money more than they dislike others
How can you be a racist and not have it affect your service/attitudes towards others?
Being a craftsman us one thing, being a cop is a seprate matter

Black Lives Matter: A Commentary on Racism and Public Health
 

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I'm to the point where I think that you should use facebook only for wishing others a happy birthday and posting funny and cute animal videos. You can't go wrong. I have never successfully won anyone over to my perspective in an online discussion, so I gave up long ago. Instead, I just try to ask people genuine questions about why they believe what they believe to get them to think through the issues. It probably doesn't work, but it can't be any worse than trying to convince them otherwise.
 
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No they really aren't.....it's just a conscious decision to do your job well despite how you may feel about the customer

Even despicable racists can make decisions to be competent if they want to
But will they?
If I found out someone was racist I wouldn't hire them
I might give them a job if it involves zero public interaction and they can do it.
It is a HUGE liability though

They post something on social media and you have a PR crisis..

Best to not hire a racist I guess
 
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But will they?
If I found out someone was racist I wouldn't hire them
I might give them a job if it involves zero public interaction and they can do it.
It is a HUGE liability though

They post something on social media and you have a PR crisis..

Best to not hire a racist I guess
I'm just pointing out how over the top your statement was....it was silly

Of course people with stupid opinions can still do their job

And your unwillingness to consider their qualifications and performance based on your opinion of them as people is a lot like the misbehavior you assume of them
 
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I'm just pointing out how over the top your statement was....it was silly

Of course people with stupid opinions can still do their job

And your unwillingness to consider their qualifications and performance based on your opinion of them as people is a lot like the misbehavior you assume of them
If I know they are racist, they are a liability to me and the company.

If someone is racist but nobody would ever know, then yeah you are right

Why do you think a lot of republican governors and politicians distance themselves from Trump?
I am not going to comment my opinion on it
However he has said some over the top non-PC things

That's a liability
That is why people distance themselves from him, to cover their behind

Same concept in me not wanting to hire a racist or a sexist

They might be brilliantly qualified, but if they are openly racist then I would totally higher a lesser qualified candidate who wouldn't be a liability.
 

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If I know they are racist, they are a liability to me and the company.

If someone is racist but nobody would ever know, then yeah you are right

Why do you think a lot of republican governors and politicians distance themselves from Trump?
I am not going to comment my opinion on it
However he has said some over the top non-PC things

That's a liability
That is why people distance themselves from him, to cover their behind

Same concept in me not wanting to hire a racist or a sexist

They might be brilliantly qualified, but if they are openly racist then I would totally higher a lesser qualified candidate who wouldn't be a liability.

As a business owner, I agree with the idea of liability, but it runs deeper than just the racist (or openly racist) views.

A large part of the issue regarding people who are openly racist (or open about contentious beliefs) is that they lack wisdom, social intelligence, self awareness, and even self control. All of us have views that others disagree with. Some of us know that we should keep those views to ourselves in specific situations because we have a level of social intelligence that tells us that those disagreements may hinder us socially and professionally. People who are loose cannons are a liability not necessarily because of their views, but because they lack those important characteristics.
 

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As a business owner, I agree with the idea of liability, but it runs deeper than just the racist (or openly racist) views.

A large part of the issue regarding people who are openly racist (or open about contentious beliefs) is that they lack wisdom, social intelligence, and even self control. All of us have views that others disagree with. Some of us know that we should keep those views to ourselves in specific situations because we have a level of social intelligence that tells us that those disagreements may hinder us socially and professionally. People who are loose cannons are a liability not necessarily because of their views, but because they lack those important characteristics.
Yes; Fair point, and I agree with that.

I reckon we can all agree there is sometimes a thing such as too much honesty.

Don't be a Dwight Schrute or a Sheldon Cooper to sum it up
 
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sb247

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If I know they are racist, they are a liability to me and the company.

If someone is racist but nobody would ever know, then yeah you are right

Why do you think a lot of republican governors and politicians distance themselves from Trump?
I am not going to comment my opinion on it
However he has said some over the top non-PC things

That's a liability
That is why people distance themselves from him, to cover their behind

Same concept in me not wanting to hire a racist or a sexist

They might be brilliantly qualified, but if they are openly racist then I would totally higher a lesser qualified candidate who wouldn't be a liability.
I'm fine with making a liability decision, I'm not ok with the silly hand wringing that just because they are a jerk with a dumb opinions that they can't function at a job. It's just illogical
 

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This should be a fun thread when it inevitably ends up in SPF.
 

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What's SPF @WingedOx ?

BTW, fellow peeps:

I would suggest that people NOT talk about raves/getting trashed/stoned/swear like a something or other in Skype, Discord, TeamSpeak, or any other medium where you are with people you do not know (would suggest you do none of that anyway but I be old). People can cut/copy/paste that into Imgur and do things you wish would not be done. In this competitive landscape, please protect yourself.

For instance, on a certain chat (voice/text) application, I'm currently watching a non-trad talk openly and pretty "interestingly" about her rave last night and how she got too drunk to finish her secondary and was too hung over today to care asking that said school maybe would look at that failure as something she's learning from.
 

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If I know they are racist, they are a liability to me and the company.

If someone is racist but nobody would ever know, then yeah you are right

Why do you think a lot of republican governors and politicians distance themselves from Trump?
I am not going to comment my opinion on it
However he has said some over the top non-PC things

That's a liability
That is why people distance themselves from him, to cover their behind

Same concept in me not wanting to hire a racist or a sexist

They might be brilliantly qualified, but if they are openly racist then I would totally higher a lesser qualified candidate who wouldn't be a liability.
Have you ever worked a job where you were forced to work with people of all different views, including racists? I have literally seen racists pull people of color from a fire because that's their job.
 
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Planes2Doc

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I'm just pointing out how over the top your statement was....it was silly

Of course people with stupid opinions can still do their job

And your unwillingness to consider their qualifications and performance based on your opinion of them as people is a lot like the misbehavior you assume of them
If I know they are racist, they are a liability to me and the company.

If someone is racist but nobody would ever know, then yeah you are right

Why do you think a lot of republican governors and politicians distance themselves from Trump?
I am not going to comment my opinion on it
However he has said some over the top non-PC things

That's a liability
That is why people distance themselves from him, to cover their behind

Same concept in me not wanting to hire a racist or a sexist

They might be brilliantly qualified, but if they are openly racist then I would totally higher a lesser qualified candidate who wouldn't be a liability.
I agree with both of these statements. For anyone that has seen my posts, they would know that I'm all about separating one's personal life from professional life. Before the advent of MySpace (the original social network if anyone still remembers), people were still probably doing the same things they are doing now, and still doing their jobs. Therefore, people were still getting trashed and stoned on weekends, then coming into work on Monday and doing a fine job for the rest of the week. But with the proliferation of social media, individuals are being scrutinized for many reasons, from big to small.

I 100% agree with @sb247 that people who are inherently racist can and would most likely still perform a good job. But I also agree with @Dr.Sticks that these people end up as a liability. Remember the fallout from Charlottesville? The marchers that were identified in photos lost their jobs when people contacted their employers. So even if they were doing great at their job, they got let go. We also see those posts on Facebook, where people who post racist or other offensive material get fired when it is brought to the attention of their employer. On the other hand, there weren't any Facebook posts regarding Antifa or BLM protestors that were outed and terminated by employers. Here is what the Washington Post said about Antifa in one of their articles: "Years before the alt-right even had a name, antifascists were spending thankless hours scouring seedy message boards and researching clandestine neo-Nazi gatherings. They were tracking those who planted the seeds of the death that we all witnessed in Charlottesville. Agree or disagree with their methods, the antifa, who devote themselves to combating racism, are in no way equivalent to alt-right trolls who joke about gas chambers. Behind the masks, antifa are nurses, teachers, neighbors, and relatives of all races and genders who do not hesitate to put themselves on the line to shut down fascism by any means necessary." So yes, people are picking sides. Posting just about anything on Facebook typically involves some level of paranoia, because it can smack you right back in the face. Even if you're pointing things that are painfully obvious such as the violence in Chicago (far bigger than an 800lbs gorilla in the room), you can still be blasted and deemed a racist.

So in an ideal world, people can all get along in a professional way whether they are racists or not. But we don't live in an ideal world.
 
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