Become an Anesthesiologist or AA?

[jv00927]

Hi! I've lately been contemplating whether to become an AA or an anesthesiologist. I would like to hear why you chose to go get your MD and become an anesthesiologist and not become an AA (or CRNA). Sometimes, I just get turned off by the amount of years and effort I would have to spend going through med school and residency and take all the board exams and certifications to become an anesthesiologist. But I'm sure it's nice to have the depth of knowledge anesthesiologists have and the paths they could take in their careers (i.e. do a fellowship in a subspecialty, research or administrative). Anyway, I'd love to hear what you guys think. Thanks.

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[aredoubleyou]

I hate to be corney - but the reason people become MDAs is because first and foremost they want to be doctors and are interested in medicine. No one goes into med school as means to become an anesthesiologist - in other words - if it were a choice between being a non anesthesiologist doctor (making medical decisions, planning care, DDx, etc) and being an CRNA (doing anesthesia- but not really the one plannig the care for the pt) - I bet most everyone here would choose another specialty within medicine rather than CRNA.

Conclusion - if your goal is to intubate and run cases and make good money, I'd train to be a crna. If your primary interest is medicine, then go to medical school.

 

[no oxygen]

agree 100% w/ RW.

 

[Noyac]

I think what RW is trying to say is that if you want to be a doctor, then go to med sch. If all you want to do is gas people then consider AA. Going to med sch (to me ) is more than just saying, I want to be an anesthesiologist. Its about learning and experience and being able to commit to something that you feel strongly about. Its not about being just one certain thing, an anesthesiologist for instance. You should know if med sch is right for you and if you have the interest and dedication to go through with it. When people say that they are not sure they want ot go through the whole med sch thing b/c of time involved, I wonder if they know what they really want.

 

[pmichaelmd]

You are being too diplomatic. Yes, med school, subsequent residency and board certification are time consuming and difficult. If somebody is asking the question "Should I be an anesthesiologist or an AA," I think the answer is self-evident. If jv is concerned about the hard work and time necessary to become a physician then it's likely he shouldn't become one because he'll only make himself miserable in the process.
JV, would you prefer to be a sheep or the shepherd? Only you can answer this question. (Please don't take that comment personally, it is a joke and I know people are sensitive).

Cheers,
PMMD

I think what RW is trying to say is that if you want to be a doctor, then go to med sch. If all you want to do is gas people then consider AA. Going to med sch (to me ) is more than just saying, I want to be an anesthesiologist. Its about learning and experience and being able to commit to something that you feel strongly about. Its not about being just one certain thing, an anesthesiologist for instance. You should know if med sch is right for you and if you have the interest and dedication to go through with it. When people say that they are not sure they want ot go through the whole med sch thing b/c of time involved, I wonder if they know what they really want.

 

[IlianaSedai]

Yeah, I agree with what's said above. If you go to medical school, you need to have some desire to be a "doctor." During medical school, you carefully consider many of the other fields of medicine (internal medicine, surgery, pediatrics, obstretrics & gynecology, psychiatry, radiology, pathology, etc). Most of us don't go to medical school thinking we'll become anesthesiologists -- probably many of us thought we were going to become some other type of "doctor" (or surgeon), treating our own patients.

It does take an awful lot of time (years), money (loans, expenses), compromise (family), commitment (again, you could be in your early, mid, or late thirties by the time you're "done" and ready to take a "real" job after all of residency and whatever fellowships you do), and perseverence. It's not surprising that, given the time and money required, a few people say they wouldn't do med school again.

If you are satisfied with being an adjunct / midlevel provider (i.e. you don't mind not being "the doctor") I think you might find that to be a very satisfying career. I've met a lot of midlevels who have no desire to be MD's. Some say it's because they don't want "ultimate responsibility" for the scarier aspects of patient care; others say they feel the time and money required to become an MD aren't worth it; others have families and other personal commitments that they want to leave lots more time for.

Best wishes.

 

[Monty Python]

..... If you go to medical school, you need to have some desire to be a "doctor." ......If you are satisfied with being an adjunct / midlevel provider (i.e. you don't mind not being "the doctor") ...... others say they feel the time and money required to become an MD aren't worth it;

I've been a CRNA since 1995. I have a very nice salary, lifestyle, toys, etc. It's been very good to me, and I've enjoyed the combination of hands-on and headwork involved.

I'm happy to leave that behind to scratch the never-ending itch I've had for a while, seeking more academic challenge, intellectual stimulation and enrichment, greater professional scope-of-practice and responsibilities (achieved by education, not by legislative fiat), and being the person where the buck stops for patient care. I wanted to be all that I could be. I also didn't want to lie on my deathbed decades from now, wondering "what if?"

My early Christmas present came last week when I got my med school acceptance letter for next August, and I eagerly look forward to the challenges and steep hills I'm about to climb.

Picture yourself lying on your deathbed xxx years from now, having pursued a career as an XYZ. How do you envision yourself looking back --- with warm feelings, or with wistful remorse?

 

[adleyinga]

Hi! I've lately been contemplating whether to become an AA or an anesthesiologist. I would like to hear why you chose to go get your MD and become an anesthesiologist and not become an AA (or CRNA). Sometimes, I just get turned off by the amount of years and effort I would have to spend going through med school and residency and take all the board exams and certifications to become an anesthesiologist. But I'm sure it's nice to have the depth of knowledge anesthesiologists have and the paths they could take in their careers (i.e. do a fellowship in a subspecialty, research or administrative). Anyway, I'd love to hear what you guys think. Thanks.

I agree with what everyone else said. But if want to look at pure financial aspect- Peter Sebel wrote an abstract many years ago saying- financially better to be CRNA because of cost of school . lost income(opportunity cost) and power of compound tax free interest--CRNA or AA ends up with larger retirement stash at end.

Except maybe for those Dallas groups -

 

[Monty Python]

I agree with what everyone else said. But if want to look at pure financial aspect- Peter Sebel wrote an abstract many years ago saying- financially better to be CRNA because of cost of school . lost income(opportunity cost) and power of compound tax free interest--CRNA or AA ends up with larger retirement stash at end.

Except maybe for those Dallas groups -

Money isn't everything. You can't buy happiness - it isn't available in a jar at Target. Both CRNA/AA and physician avenues will allow you to have an enjoyable lifestyle and comfortable retirement. But, again, money isn't everything and I know some unhappy (deep down inside) people with big bank accounts. I'm giving up ~$170K total package to go back to school but to me the intangibles are priceless.

What truly motivates you? From what do you reap your true inner rewards? What gives you a sense of satisfaction, a job well done, a day well spent, using your talents and abilities to their fullest possible extent? After making sure the essentials in life are covered, with a little left over for toys and fun, more and more money is really just a bunch of marks on an accounting sheet.

Without trying to throw religion down anyone's throat here, my personal goal is to stand at my Eternal Judgement and hear the words "well done." I don't see the addendum "and congrats for dying with the most toys, and with the largest bank account" in there anywhere.

 

[zippy2u]

If ole Zip wins that lottery, he's gonna be one helluva happy camper. Money = Freedom. Mo' money ya got, the mo' freedom ya got. Last time I checked, everybody and their momma loves freedom. ----Zip

 

[me454555]

If you're planning on going to medical school b/c you want to be an anesthesiologist, I think your better off being a CRNA b/c its less schooling. Medical school is A LOT of work and if you're not motivate it can be a long and lonely road. You've gotta go through a lot of bs before you even start your first aneshesia rotation and you may not want to go through all that. After you do an anesthesia rotation, you still have to go through the match, then intern year and then finally, you will get to practice anesthesia. To go to medical shool you have to want to be a Dr. not just an anesthesiologist.

 

[threepeas]

I've been a CRNA since 1995. I have a very nice salary, lifestyle, toys, etc. It's been very good to me, and I've enjoyed the combination of hands-on and headwork involved.

I'm happy to leave that behind to scratch the never-ending itch I've had for a while, seeking more academic challenge, intellectual stimulation and enrichment, greater professional scope-of-practice and responsibilities (achieved by education, not by legislative fiat), and being the person where the buck stops for patient care. I wanted to be all that I could be. I also didn't want to lie on my deathbed decades from now, wondering "what if?"

My early Christmas present came last week when I got my med school acceptance letter for next August, and I eagerly look forward to the challenges and steep hills I'm about to climb.

Picture yourself lying on your deathbed xxx years from now, having pursued a career as an XYZ. How do you envision yourself looking back --- with warm feelings, or with wistful remorse?

CONGRATULATIONS I AGREE 100%. WHAT WILL BE YOUR LEGACY? I WAS A PA BEFORE MED SCHOOL AND LOVE THE DECISION TO ADVANCE MY CAREER. ITS THE JOURNEY NOT THE POT OF GOLD AT THE END THAT BUILDS CHARACTER AND TRUE HAPPINESS. MY TWO CENTS IS...TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND MEDICAL CARE AND BECOME A MDA. MID LEVELS ARE LIKE CHILDREN WHO CANT LEAVE HOME AND ARE STILL ON THEIR PARENTS CAR INSURANCE. WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG EVERYONE SUFFERS. I COULD NOT LIVE WITH MYSELF ANYMORE KNOWING MY DECISIONS COULD HURT SOMEONE ELSES CAREER. IN A FEW YEARS I WILL BE STANDING ON MY OWN TWO FEET. ITS NOT ABOUT ADDING UP XYZ ITS ABOUT COMMITTMENT AND RESPONSIBILITY. IF YOUR HEART IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE YOU WILL NEVER REGRET GOING TO MD SCHOOL I PROMISE-THIS STUFF IS TOO COOL NOT TO DO THE REAL DEAL !!!

 

[jetproppilot]

MID LEVELS ARE LIKE CHILDREN WHO CANT LEAVE HOME AND ARE STILL ON THEIR PARENTS CAR INSURANCE.

Whats a mid level?

 

[fval28]

Whats a mid level?

Jet,
A mid level is a CRNA, NP, PA, etc. Short for midlevel provider.

 

[jetproppilot]

Jet,
A mid level is a CRNA, NP, PA, etc. Short for midlevel provider.

Thanks, fval. But I knew the answer.

Wanted threepeas to answer so I could blast him for his unneeded midlevels are like children.... post.

Unless youre Michael Roizen, threepeas, you need to take that s hit elsewhere. What a stupid comment. Actually, even if you ARE Michael Roizen, its still a stupid comment.

Like it or not, patients would be waiting for months to have procedures done if CRNAs/AAs didnt exist.

And yes, I'll be the first to blast a militant CRNA/SRNA who posts militant, I-can-do-what-you-can propeganda here. Most arent like that, though.

The team approach is alive and well, like it or not.

Again, I am pro-team-approach. I am anti militant-CRNA.

Threepeas, learn not to fire unless fired upon.

 

[Gudbrand]

Im 18 but say i went to medical school, it would take around 8 years to become an anesthesiologist wouldnt it? how do you work in that time and where do you live? is it a good idea to become a crna then go to medical school?

 

[jetproppilot]

Im 18 but say i went to medical school, it would take around 8 years to become an anesthesiologist wouldnt it? how do you work in that time and where do you live? is it a good idea to become a crna then go to medical school?

No, Gud,

it would take you twelve years to be an anesthesiologist. Four years of college, four years of med school, and four years of residency...

"Residency" is where you work for a hospital, learning your trade....

wanna be a pediatrician? 3 years residency

wanna be a general surgeon? 5 years residency

etc etc

 

[Gudbrand]

yes this is what i meant but i skipped the general college part, can you tell me what you did in between that time?

 

[jetproppilot]

yes this is what i meant but i skipped the general college part, can you tell me what you did in between that time?

The only "in-between" time I had was between high school and college...I graduated from high school in 1982, and worked as a firefighter/paramedic for 2 years.

Then,

1985-1988 college....Bachelors degree
1988-1992 med school...MD degree
1992-1996 residency....anesthesia residency

 

[Gimlet]

Im 18 but say i went to medical school, it would take around 8 years to become an anesthesiologist wouldnt it? how do you work in that time and where do you live? is it a good idea to become a crna then go to medical school?

yes this is what i meant but i skipped the general college part, can you tell me what you did in between that time?

In the time between college and being a doctor? You go to med school and do your residency...those are your only jobs during that time (for most sane people, at least). Read the FAQ at the top of the forum, it will answer a lot of your questions. It's not necessary to become a CRNA before going to medical school, but it wouldn't hurt your application if you did.

 

[jwk]

CONGRATULATIONS I AGREE 100%. WHAT WILL BE YOUR LEGACY? I WAS A PA BEFORE MED SCHOOL AND LOVE THE DECISION TO ADVANCE MY CAREER. ITS THE JOURNEY NOT THE POT OF GOLD AT THE END THAT BUILDS CHARACTER AND TRUE HAPPINESS. MY TWO CENTS IS...TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND MEDICAL CARE AND BECOME A MDA. MID LEVELS ARE LIKE CHILDREN WHO CANT LEAVE HOME AND ARE STILL ON THEIR PARENTS CAR INSURANCE. WHEN SOMETHING GOES WRONG EVERYONE SUFFERS. I COULD NOT LIVE WITH MYSELF ANYMORE KNOWING MY DECISIONS COULD HURT SOMEONE ELSES CAREER. IN A FEW YEARS I WILL BE STANDING ON MY OWN TWO FEET. ITS NOT ABOUT ADDING UP XYZ ITS ABOUT COMMITTMENT AND RESPONSIBILITY. IF YOUR HEART IS IN THE RIGHT PLACE YOU WILL NEVER REGRET GOING TO MD SCHOOL I PROMISE-THIS STUFF IS TOO COOL NOT TO DO THE REAL DEAL !!!

Regardless of the path chosen, MD, AA, CRNA, or otherwise, it's an individual decision, based on a multitude of factors, but to imply that those of us without an MD degree are "children" is a TOTAL crock.

And how the hell do your decisions hurt someone else's career?

PPP, you're already working on the big ego. Thank god you've seen the light brothah P, how did the MD's make it without you this long? Are they actually paying you to go to medical school just to bring you into the fold?

 

[mountaindew2006]

this is a thread that has sprung up because of guys like slick (jet and Mil) advocating 'the team approach'.

perhaps having extra hands is a great idea. HOWEVER....a ANESTHESIOLOGIST is different from a Anesthesiologist Assistant. They arent even COMPARABLE. the assistant is just that an assistant. a anesthesiologist is a PHYSICIAN.

guys like milMD and JET should be shamed of themselves. its because of ppl liek you that our profession has been compared to an assistant's job. Do you ever hear of ppl saying....hmmmmmmmmm should i be a SURGEON or a PA ?

NOPE. why? because surgeons maintain their profession and it's status. It's because you guys are sooooo friggin laid back that ppl think of anesthesiologists as 'nurses',etc. During my third year i had seen it way too often when anesthesiologists were treated as some ancillary staff member by the OR team.

 

[jetproppilot]

this is a thread that has sprung up because of guys like slick (jet and Mil) advocating 'the team approach'.

perhaps having extra hands is a great idea. HOWEVER....a ANESTHESIOLOGIST is different from a Anesthesiologist Assistant. They arent even COMPARABLE. the assistant is just that an assistant. a anesthesiologist is a PHYSICIAN.

guys like milMD and JET should be shamed of themselves. its because of ppl liek you that our profession has been compared to an assistant's job. Do you ever hear of ppl saying....hmmmmmmmmm should i be a SURGEON or a PA ?

NOPE. why? because surgeons maintain their profession and it's status. It's because you guys are sooooo friggin laid back that ppl think of anesthesiologists as 'nurses',etc. During my third year i had seen it way too often when anesthesiologists were treated as some ancillary staff member by the OR team.

And what level training are you? Are you even who you say you are?

Are you misrepresenting yourself?

 

[militarymd]

And what level training are you? Are you even who you say you are?

Are you misrepresenting yourself?

He 's a medical student. I posted in another thread.

 

[militarymd]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=1814812#post1814812

 

[militarymd]

guys like milMD and JET should be shamed of themselves. its because of ppl liek you that our profession has been compared to an assistant's job. Do you ever hear of ppl saying....hmmmmmmmmm should i be a SURGEON or a PA ?

OUR profession?

I believe you have not even matched....

 

[mountaindew2006]

OUR profession?

I believe you have not even matched....

my bad...i forgot you sold out on us. So i guess everybody's EXCEPT your profession

 

[jwk]

my bad...i forgot you sold out on us. So i guess everybody's EXCEPT your profession

They sold out a med student?

You're a student - you don't have a profession.

 

[militarymd]

my bad...i forgot you sold out on us. So i guess everybody's EXCEPT your profession

Seriously,

I hope that there are plenty of folks like you matching into anesthesia this year and in foreseeable future.

As long as folks like you continue to match and train in anesthesia, I'll never have to worry about the job market and continue to have a fulfilling and prosperous career.

 

[bryanboling5]

this is a thread that has sprung up because of guys like slick (jet and Mil) advocating 'the team approach'.

perhaps having extra hands is a great idea. HOWEVER....a ANESTHESIOLOGIST is different from a Anesthesiologist Assistant. They arent even COMPARABLE. the assistant is just that an assistant. a anesthesiologist is a PHYSICIAN.

guys like milMD and JET should be shamed of themselves. its because of ppl liek you that our profession has been compared to an assistant's job. Do you ever hear of ppl saying....hmmmmmmmmm should i be a SURGEON or a PA ?

NOPE. why? because surgeons maintain their profession and it's status. It's because you guys are sooooo friggin laid back that ppl think of anesthesiologists as 'nurses',etc. During my third year i had seen it way too often when anesthesiologists were treated as some ancillary staff member by the OR team.

Actually, I know quite a few people who wanted to go into surgery who debated between PA and MD. And if you're of the opinion that surgeons are so professional, maybe you should apply to surgery programs when it comes time to match....just a thought.

 

[threepeas]

Regardless of the path chosen, MD, AA, CRNA, or otherwise, it's an individual decision, based on a multitude of factors, but to imply that those of us without an MD degree are "children" is a TOTAL crock.

And how the hell do your decisions hurt someone else's career?

PPP, you're already working on the big ego. Thank god you've seen the light brothah P, how did the MD's make it without you this long? Are they actually paying you to go to medical school just to bring you into the fold?

the bottom line is whether you like it or not medicine takes an extreme committment to the training. PA/NP/CRNA is a shortcut to practicing medicine. Why cant MDs just get 2 years training and start working? MDs are the standard of care. People who choose mid-level are by definition lazy because they dont want to make the committment. "i want to practice medicine but i dont want to have to work that hard to do it" is a common response why peeps dont go the MD route, and that is exactly what the post stated that started this thread. I chose the PA profession for the same reason. I didnt want to make that long committment to medical training so i chose the PA route. But I have to be honest with myselft---I was being lazy not wanting to work hard enough for the privelage of taking care of our society's health needs. As a "dependent practicioner" I had to ask permission in certain situations to do things, style my practice to that of my supervisiong physician, and if I screwed up my supervising doc had to share in the responsibility. This relationship when i thought about reminded me a parent-child relationship. If all these people that are mid-levels went to medschool and then into anesthesia we would have enough practioners all at the MD level and society would be better off. but they dont want to make that committment and are therefore lazy. Anyway...it is not about arrogance. i dont care what someone decides as long as they are honest about what they are choosing and why.

 

[militarymd]

People who choose mid-level are by definition lazy because they dont want to make the committment.

whooaaaa....that's crossing the line my friend.

 

[threepeas]

whooaaaa....that's crossing the line my friend.

I KNOW...IT'S HARD TO ADMIT. BUT WHAT IS THE MAIN REASON PEOPLE CHOOSE MIDLEVEL? IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE MONEY IS BETTER. IT IS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE AUTONOMY AND RESPONSIBILITY. ITS NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE BETTER TRAINED. WHY WOULD ANYONE PURPOSEFULLY CHOOSE A PROFESSION THAT IS DEPENDENT ON ANOTHER WHEN THEY HAVE THE APTITUDE AND ABILITIES TO DO THE OTHER? YOU ARE SIMPLY CHOOSING THE PATH MOST EASILY TRAVELED. SORRY YOU DISAGREE, BUT IF YOU GOT A BETTER IDEA I AM ALL EARS.

 

[Gimlet]

I KNOW...IT'S HARD TO ADMIT. BUT WHAT IS THE MAIN REASON PEOPLE CHOOSE MIDLEVEL? IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE MONEY IS BETTER. IT IS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE AUTONOMY AND RESPONSIBILITY. ITS NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE BETTER TRAINED. WHY WOULD ANYONE PURPOSEFULLY CHOOSE A PROFESSION THAT IS DEPENDENT ON ANOTHER WHEN THEY HAVE THE APTITUDE AND ABILITIES TO DO THE OTHER? YOU ARE SIMPLY CHOOSING THE PATH MOST EASILY TRAVELED. SORRY YOU DISAGREE, BUT IF YOU GOT A BETTER IDEA I AM ALL EARS.

Dude, this issue has already been hashed out a million and a half times on SDN. Please take it somewhere else. And don't type in all-caps...IT'S REALLY ANNOYING.

 

[jwk]

I KNOW...IT'S HARD TO ADMIT. BUT WHAT IS THE MAIN REASON PEOPLE CHOOSE MIDLEVEL? IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE MONEY IS BETTER. IT IS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE AUTONOMY AND RESPONSIBILITY. ITS NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE BETTER TRAINED. WHY WOULD ANYONE PURPOSEFULLY CHOOSE A PROFESSION THAT IS DEPENDENT ON ANOTHER WHEN THEY HAVE THE APTITUDE AND ABILITIES TO DO THE OTHER? YOU ARE SIMPLY CHOOSING THE PATH MOST EASILY TRAVELED. SORRY YOU DISAGREE, BUT IF YOU GOT A BETTER IDEA I AM ALL EARS.

So you're telling us that YOU were just a lazy SOB as a PA until you saw the light? WTF, how could you waste all those years?

You and Dew should hook up and go into practice together. You can stroke each other's egos in that $100k-a-year ideal rural all-MD anesthesia practice.

 

[threepeas]

So you're telling us that YOU were just a lazy SOB as a PA until you saw the light? WTF, how could you waste all those years?

You and Dew should hook up and go into practice together. You can stroke each other's egos in that $100k-a-year ideal rural all-MD anesthesia practice.

First, sorry about the all CAPS. thanks for the forum edicate suggestion.
Second, this issue is relevant to the thread "MDA or AA" so fault the person starting this thread. I am just giving food for thought.
Third, even though other forums have supposedly discussed this i havent given my opinion on this issue b/c I am relatively new to the forum so if you dont want to hear it drive on.
Fourth, yes, in general, choosing a midlevel career is a inherently a professional lazy decision. i havent heard any intelligent rebuttle to this statement just a bunch of ya da ya da.
Fifth, i am open to other opinions about this so lets hear it if you disagree.
sixth, i am not saying that midlevels are lazy when they show up for work or they dont do a good job. i am saying they are not willing to take full responsibility for practicing medicine and that is why they are "dependent" practicioners, and in my mind that makes them "professionally" lazy.
seventh, i have absolutely nothing against midlevels existing and practicing. they are needed and excellent at what they do as long as there scope of practice is well defined with proper supervision that's all.

so in summary, if you dont think i am right tell me why choosing a midlevel career isnt a decision mainly based on laziness.

look at this guys question that started the thread..."Sometimes, I just get turned off by the amount of years and effort I would have to spend going through med school and residency and take all the board exams and certifications to become an anesthesiologist."

i have heard this a thousand times from my fellow midlevels...

i am telling this guy who started the thread that if he wants to practice medicince and specifically anesthesia dont choose AA because you are lazy and dont want to do the work to become an MD. choose midlevel because they provide something to medicine that is inherently different, like...they spend more time with patients, or they are better listeners, or they are more primary care minded than MDs or something like that.

 

[jwk]

First, sorry about the all CAPS. thanks for the forum edicate suggestion.
Second, this issue is relevant to the thread "MDA or AA" so fault the person starting this thread. I am just giving food for thought.
Third, even though other forums have supposedly discussed this i havent given my opinion on this issue b/c I am relatively new to the forum so if you dont want to hear it drive on.
Fourth, yes, in general, choosing a midlevel career is a inherently a professional lazy decision. i havent heard any intelligent rebuttle to this statement just a bunch of ya da ya da.
Fifth, i am open to other opinions about this so lets hear it if you disagree.
sixth, i am not saying that midlevels are lazy when they show up for work or they dont do a good job. i am saying they are not willing to take full responsibility for practicing medicine and that is why they are "dependent" practicioners, and in my mind that makes them "professionally" lazy.
seventh, i have absolutely nothing against midlevels existing and practicing. they are needed and excellent at what they do as long as there scope of practice is well defined with proper supervision that's all.

so in summary, if you dont think i am right tell me why choosing a midlevel career isnt a decision mainly based on laziness.

look at this guys question that started the thread..."Sometimes, I just get turned off by the amount of years and effort I would have to spend going through med school and residency and take all the board exams and certifications to become an anesthesiologist."

i have heard this a thousand times from my fellow midlevels...

i am telling this guy who started the thread that if he wants to practice medicince and specifically anesthesia dont choose AA because you are lazy and dont want to do the work to become an MD. choose midlevel because they provide something to medicine that is inherently different, like...they spend more time with patients, or they are better listeners, or they are more primary care minded than MDs or something like that.

Still waiting to hear why YOU became a PA and when you came to the realization that you were inherently lazy.

Just because someone doesn't want to spend 8 or more years in med school and residency doesn't mean they're lazy. By that logic, ANYONE who is not a physician is lazy. That's just a total crock and you know it. There's plenty of reasons not to go to medical school. Time is one, money is another, family concerns, stress, higher risk of suicide, etc., there's plenty more.

There are a lot of AA's (and RN's and CRNA's and PA's and NP's and RT's, etc.) that might have wanted to go to medical school and weren't accepted, so another healthcare field was their alternative. Are they lazy as well? And again, why did you go the PA route? Were you too lazy to start with?

You may think all non-physicians are lazy, but they're not. I know I'm not. I help manage an anesthesia department with more than 100 providers, am in the OR doing cases every day, and work an average of 70-80 hours a week, which includes nights, weekends, and holidays (right along with the non-lazy MD's). I might be lots of things but lazy isn't one of them by anyone's standards (except yours of course, PA-not-yet-MD).

 

[sleepwithme]

you know, if you had not spelled "etiquette" as edicate, I would have read the rest of your post, but seriously man. First you say you were lazy and did your PA, then you can't spell etiquette? Maybe it was not that you were lazy, you simply did not have the intellectual capabilities!

 

[bell412]

threepeas, your like the alchoholic that has become sober. Now that you have seen the "light" you have become self-righteous.

You were the only one who was lazy because YOU knew that the PA route was the easy route for YOU. YOU should have gone to medical school from the start because that is what YOU wanted to do from the start.

 

[threepeas]

you know, if you had not spelled "etiquette" as edicate, I would have read the rest of your post, but seriously man. First you say you were lazy and did your PA, then you can't spell etiquette? Maybe it was not that you were lazy, you simply did not have the intellectual capabilities!

the truth is yes i was too lazy to pursue a medically degree at the time because there was easier option and although my life has turned out great i would of done it different. so i am encouraging those who are choosing a midlevel career because there is less committment just dont go into medicine at all. but i do believe this is why most people go this route. if there are other reasons then so be it. i am just challenging people (those who are considering these careers) to consider laziness as a motivation for their decision.

but once again...anyone opposed to my view cant do anymore than yadayada..

the funny thing is i totally forgot how to spell etiquette and i tried looking it up but i was so off that, that was what the dictionary gave me. sorry that spelling mistakes are so offensive to you, but if you could try and stay focused on the topic and respond to the content of my posts that would be a bit more constructive.

 

[threepeas]

Still waiting to hear why YOU became a PA and when you came to the realization that you were inherently lazy.

Just because someone doesn't want to spend 8 or more years in med school and residency doesn't mean they're lazy. By that logic, ANYONE who is not a physician is lazy. That's just a total crock and you know it. There's plenty of reasons not to go to medical school. Time is one, money is another, family concerns, stress, higher risk of suicide, etc., there's plenty more.

There are a lot of AA's (and RN's and CRNA's and PA's and NP's and RT's, etc.) that might have wanted to go to medical school and weren't accepted, so another healthcare field was their alternative. Are they lazy as well? And again, why did you go the PA route? Were you too lazy to start with?

You may think all non-physicians are lazy, but they're not. I know I'm not. I help manage an anesthesia department with more than 100 providers, am in the OR doing cases every day, and work an average of 70-80 hours a week, which includes nights, weekends, and holidays (right along with the non-lazy MD's). I might be lots of things but lazy isn't one of them by anyone's standards (except yours of course, PA-not-yet-MD).

TIME=what does time have to do with it. if you are doing what you enjoy ("practicing medicine") then whether you are training to do it or practicing in the field you should be enjoying what you do.
MONEY=regardless of debt incurred during school you diffenently come out financially ahead in the long run, and with some specialities in the short run. I gave up a $130K/ 50hr a week job to go to school. money is just an excuse not a reason. if you want to go to practice medicine money should never stop you.
FAMILY CONCERNS=I have 3 children under seven, married for 10 years, another child on the way (i will ahve to change my call sign to "fourpeas" soon) and we are doing just fine. allowing family issues to keep you from going to med school is a cop out.
STRESS=life is stress. sounds like your job is more stressful than any med school training i am going to go through.
SUICIDE=let me think...i wont become a doctor because i might committ suicide, but instead i will take the easy road, get a midlevel degree, work the same hours, less autonomy and get paid half as much. that scenario would make me committ suicide.

So frankly I see all your "reasons" as excuses...now on to the rest of your response, which by the way i thank you for atleast writing a decent reply.

As far as those peeps not getting accepted to medschool...that is a double edged sword for a reason to pursue midlevel. not capable of getting into medschool so i will.......but I know only about 10-20% of my colleagues who applied multiple times then chose midlevel. most people talk themselves out it because they are laaaazzzzzy.

if you want to know why i went midlevel there are a few reasons.
i got bad advice from people who had a skewed perspective of medicine. i applied twice and was a borderline canidate on paper and didnt make the cut, so having a midlevel option made it easy to move on. otherwise i would of kept trying sooner than waiting till i was 36 because i would of been miserable doing anything else but medicine. so in the interim i got a M.S. in physio, did some research with a major publication, and improved my MCAT score and applied. but i didnt talk myself out it because i "thought" it was going to be hard.

as i said in a previous post. i dont think anyone (MDs/midlevels) is inherently lazy when they come to work. you are missing my point totally. i am saying when faced with two choices and you pick one because it is easier (which may not be why you chose it) you are being lazy. i can honestly say that most of the people i have met state the short, less rigorous training as their #1 reason for going midlevel.

i am writing these posts to tell the guy who started this thread...dont chose midlevel because its easier. you will regret it. put the work in to become an MD and for the rest of your career enjoy the autonomy, responsibility, the education and training, money, and privelages that come with being an MD.

 

[Monty Python]

.....Fourth, yes, in general, choosing a midlevel career is a inherently a professional lazy decision...... i am saying they are not willing to take full responsibility for practicing medicine and that is why they are "dependent" practicioners, and in my mind that makes them "professionally" lazy....

I usually just walk away from such subjective nonsense without wasting bandwidth, but this particular post managed to push my button. Congratulations - you're the first in quite a while.

I take great exception to calling my "midlevel career" a lazy decision. How f**king dare you? For a multitude of personal and family reasons, medical school was simply not an option 20 years ago when I made the conscious decision to pursue my BSN degree and proudly work as an ICU RN for two years, taking full responsibility for my nursing actions and making independent professional nursing judgements within my nursing scope of practice and nursing licensure. I don't consider weaning an intubated patient, managing vasoactive drips, intra-aortic balloon pumps, etc, as professional lazy. Oh, that's usually three ICU patients at a time, with roller skates on my feet. Who knows? It may have been one of your family members I comforted at 0200 when they died all alone and no family member was there at the bedside. It was me who cleaned up their crap and piss and vomit and leaking colostomy and stage 4 decubiti etc. Sorry, but that doesn't fit under my definition of lazy. Note: I entered nursing school to practice nursing, not medicine. I later entered nurse anesthesia school to practice anesthesia as a specialty of nursing care, in concert with physicians who specialize in the medical practice of anesthesia.

Next time you have a couple of free hours, I invite you to observe at the nursing station on a med-surg ward. You will see RNs going 12 hours straight without sitting down, without a break, without a meal, so they can properly and professionally administer dedicated patient care while trying to keep their heads above the sea of paperwork. You mention the word "lazy" in that context and you'll leave the nursing station in a body bag.

If you carry that mentality into practice as a med student or beyond you will soon suffer the full wrath of the nursing staff. "Let's see, how many times can we page Med Student X/Resident Dr. X between 0130 and 0430 THIS morning? More than yesterday?"

As to "dependent" practice, that is up the legislatures of the various states to define and promulgate in codified laws, not up to you to define. May I suggest you run for office since you wish to give legal definitions to everything?

Now that my personal and family situations allowed me to consider medical school, does that (by definition) make me unlazy?

Oh, one more question: when I was the sole anesthesia provider (as a nurse anesthetist) for 5000 sailors on an aircraft carrier, did that make me lazy? Shirking responsibility? Taking the easy and fast way out? Where were you -chasing skirts and sleeping under a warm blanket each night?

 

[threepeas]

I usually just walk away from such subjective nonsense without wasting bandwidth, but this particular post managed to push my button. Congratulations - you're the first in quite a while.

I take great exception to calling my "midlevel career" a lazy decision. How f**king dare you? For a multitude of personal and family reasons, medical school was simply not an option 20 years ago when I made the conscious decision to pursue my BSN degree and proudly work as an ICU RN for two years, taking full responsibility for my nursing actions and making independent professional nursing judgements within my nursing scope of practice and nursing licensure. I don't consider weaning an intubated patient, managing vasoactive drips, intra-aortic balloon pumps, etc, as professional lazy. Oh, that's usually three ICU patients at a time, with roller skates on my feet. Who knows? It may have been one of your family members I comforted at 0200 when they died all alone and no family member was there at the bedside. It was me who cleaned up their crap and piss and vomit and leaking colostomy and stage 4 decubiti etc. Sorry, but that doesn't fit under my definition of lazy. Note: I entered nursing school to practice nursing, not medicine. I later entered nurse anesthesia school to practice anesthesia as a specialty of nursing care, in concert with physicians who specialize in the medical practice of anesthesia.

Next time you have a couple of free hours, I invite you to observe at the nursing station on a med-surg ward. You will see RNs going 12 hours straight without sitting down, without a break, without a meal, so they can properly and professionally administer dedicated patient care while trying to keep their heads above the sea of paperwork. You mention the word "lazy" in that context and you'll leave the nursing station in a body bag.

If you carry that mentality into practice as a med student or beyond you will soon suffer the full wrath of the nursing staff. "Let's see, how many times can we page Med Student X/Resident Dr. X between 0130 and 0430 THIS morning? More than yesterday?"

As to "dependent" practice, that is up the legislatures of the various states to define and promulgate in codified laws, not up to you to define. May I suggest you run for office since you wish to give legal definitions to everything?

Now that my personal and family situations allowed me to consider medical school, does that (by definition) make me unlazy?

Oh, one more question: when I was the sole anesthesia provider (as a nurse anesthetist) for 5000 sailors on an aircraft carrier, did that make me lazy? Shirking responsibility? Taking the easy and fast way out? Where were you -chasing skirts and sleeping under a warm blanket each night?

you are taking this way to personal. you know zero about me. zero. i am not accusing you as an individual as being lazy. try and separate the two.

i am not saying that while you practice your trade you are lazy. i am saying "most" choose a midlevel career because they dont wan to put the work in to become a doc, and in my mind that is a decision based on laziness. i am not saying everyone has done that, but "most". that "most" is based on real world experience while i was a PA knowing hundreds of NPs, PAs, and CRNAs. there really is not too many other reasons not to go to med school. as i have said before---you get paid more, are better trained, have more autonomy and responsibility, etc. so why not go? the reason i am bringing this up as i have said a thousand times is that the person who started this thread hinted he didnt want to do the work for medschool. i am saying dont go into medicine at all if that is your position. if you want to be midlevel choose it for reasons that inherently unique to the midlevel field. so stop everyone getting their dander up and focus in a little.

further, i have worked 3 years at 24 bed med surg ICU with only one other intensivist. i know what it is like for nurses (it sounds like your responsibilities went way beyond a typical RN), please spare your career accolade drama. i know what goes on...i dont treat anybody with despair because they are a midlevel. but if i ask so why didnt you go to medschool and they say i didnt want to put all those years of hard work-then i will say to myself that is sign of lazy character if you dont like it so what..that is my opinion.

 

[Monty Python]

...... then i will say to myself that is sign of lazy character if you dont like it so what..that is my opinion.

Respecting your right to your opinion, we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[VentdependenT]

I should just paste the hundreds of these crappy similar threads together, which seem to spawn relentlessly like pimples on a teenager, print em out, and build a toilet for me to poop on.

 

[freshity]

this enormous (but still not as big as you think) pissing contest reminds me of funny joke i just heard. in speaking with an anesthesiologist, he joked about the curtain in the o.r. separating him from the sterile field. he said, "in the o.r. we refer to it as the blood-brain barrier." pretty funny.

 

[mountaindew2006]

I KNOW...IT'S HARD TO ADMIT. BUT WHAT IS THE MAIN REASON PEOPLE CHOOSE MIDLEVEL? IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE MONEY IS BETTER. IT IS NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MORE AUTONOMY AND RESPONSIBILITY. ITS NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE BETTER TRAINED. WHY WOULD ANYONE PURPOSEFULLY CHOOSE A PROFESSION THAT IS DEPENDENT ON ANOTHER WHEN THEY HAVE THE APTITUDE AND ABILITIES TO DO THE OTHER? YOU ARE SIMPLY CHOOSING THE PATH MOST EASILY TRAVELED. SORRY YOU DISAGREE, BUT IF YOU GOT A BETTER IDEA I AM ALL EARS.

yo THreePeas

believe me ppl on here are mostly midlevels OR midlevel sympathizers. As a result everyone here get's offended whenever someone crosses them (see my previously incited threads).

I agree w/ you. I have MANY family members who are RNs, etc. I think they do contribute a lot to society. HOWEVER..if it is medicine they want to pursue...then they should become a MD ...like yourself.

All too often I think hospitals try to engage these midlevels by contriving this arbitary term, "team approach". IF anything it makes these midlevels feel like they are on par w/ the MDs. Nevertheless, ppl go to medical school for a reason to become a DOCTOR of MEDICINE. Meaning they dont just treat numbers etc, but rather the WHOLE patient. I believe doctors go through many more years of training, etc because they are then able to have a bird's eye view of the patient, not just the tunnel vision. THe doctor asks WHY. Pursues a list of differentials and then comes up w/ a management plan that he/she believes is appropriate. In no other field is this done.

I think all to often these midlevels are allowed to wear the long white coats, scrubs of the same color etc and that just gets to their heads.

Bottom line: Want to practice medicine/anesthesiology.....BECOME A DOCTOR!

 

[rn29306]

I think all to often these midlevels are allowed to wear the scrubs and that just gets to their heads.

Oh Great Confucius, what would you have people wear in the OR if not scrubs? Are you honestly trying to imply that the wearing of scrubs is solely dedicated to the physician realm?

Have you honestly been in an OR lately - you have to ask yourself "Do I really want to see these individuals WITHOUT scrubs?"

 

[mountaindew2006]

Oh Great Confucius, what would you have people wear in the OR if not scrubs? Are you honestly trying to imply that the wearing of scrubs is solely dedicated to the physician realm?

Have you honestly been in an OR lately - you have to ask yourself "Do I really want to see these individuals WITHOUT scrubs?"

i've visited many 'great' institutions where physicians and midlevels wear different colored scrubs. Perhaps this may be a little extreme...however...certainly i do not think a x ray tech or a nurse should wear a LONG or ANY type of white coat.

White coats to the PATIENT signal a physician. All to often a patient will think the white coated nurse or tech is their doctor. I say STOP the deception. If you all want to wear the white coats that WE earned....go the extra mile. Stop kidding YOURSELVES and YOUR patients become a physician. What's the big deal?? ThreePeas did it. It's attainable. I think all to often ppl demand respect and this feeling of importance....here's an idea....go the extra mile like ThreePeas did and EARN IT. It'll make you feel better and it will allow for better patient care.

 

[jetproppilot]

Oh Great Confucius, what would you have people wear in the OR if not scrubs? Are you honestly trying to imply that the wearing of scrubs is solely dedicated to the physician realm?

Have you honestly been in an OR lately - you have to ask yourself "Do I really want to see these individuals WITHOUT scrubs?"

RN,

Save your breath.

Mountain is representing something that he is not.

I ask you, if it is really an MS-4, how could it have formulated such opinions so early in a doctors career???????