PhD/PsyD Being "large" and the Doctoral Admissions Process

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CogNeuroGuy

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I wanted to get some opinions from everyone here to see what you think about this important topic, yet not discussed often: Body image (weight) and doctoral admissions.

According to this article: https://www.apa.org/gradpsych/2013/11/body-size.aspx

The listed article above mentions a study conducted by Bowling Green State University and obesity amongst doctoral and master's program admissions. Essentially, they find that obese applicants are denied admissions more-so than their normal BMI counterparts, especially female applicants. Do you find larger people being turned down from admission into a Ph.D. program (clinical or counseling psych.) due to their weight?

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I have never notice discrimination based on body style in the admission process. That is, it is never an open point of discussion when meeting for applicant review. Are there biases? Of course. Being attractive plays huge roles in many parts of society, including getting jobs. I think the literature between attractiveness and perception of personality features/innate qualities and abilities/competencies is pretty robust.
 
That study is based on an overweight n=22. Not saying that this doesn't exist, just that I'd be wary of generalizing to grad admissions in general without better tudies replicating the effects. My program was probably split between what I would consider overweight and normal. Also, I'm not a fan of using BMI as a measure of overweight. I've played sports since I was a kid and throughout college, and continue to regularly lift weights. Due to bone density and muscle mass, I am "overweight" by BMI standards even though my body fat is on the average range.
 
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Interesting question.

Much of this work (what i'm more familiar) originated in the corp world...and unfortunately had similar results in regard to hiring, promoting, rating, etc. I'm not sure if it perfectly translates as most of the original work was more sales oriented (think attractive pharma rep peddling new meds), but that may be worth digging up.
 
Interesting question.

Much of this work (what i'm more familiar) originated in the corp world...and unfortunately had similar results in regard to hiring, promoting, rating, etc. I'm not sure if it perfectly translates as most of the original work was more sales oriented (think attractive pharma rep peddling new meds), but that may be worth digging up.

I acknowledge some bias likely exists in both settings, I'd be interested in seeing the effect sizes though. I would think the corp setting would be larger given that there are clear monetary incentives to do so (e.g., sales settings, lowered insurance costs, etc).
 
I'm sure it happens, I'd need to pull up the study to see if it was a particularly convincing demonstration of that (I'm doubtful).

Its very hard to answer if you've "seen" this. Have I seen extremely qualified overweight candidates denied admission? Of course. Its a competitive field and I've seen extremely competitive candidates of all sizes denied admission. I've never had a professor come back from meeting candidates and say "Wow, so-and-so is a really stellar applicant. I'd totally insist we accept them if they weren't such a fatty". That may well happen on occasion, but its likely the overwhelming minority of discrimination cases. Most are likely to be far more subtle or even implicit. Unfortunately, its pretty tough to address. I'm not 100% certain, but I recall hearing that even cases that go to court (meaning they likely entail more extreme discrimination than average) are rarely found in favor of the plaintiff, just because hiring decisions are so complex and its very difficult to prove bias. Humans are humans, which isn't a justification but does mean this isn't likely to go away anytime soon. Physical attractiveness certainly extends far beyond just weight and I'm sure matters too...its just harder to quantify.
 
oh good, I thought this was going to be another thread how my penis size was going to prevent me from getting places.
 
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Ok, I admit the title is a bit subjective in wording and interpretation :p.
 
Speaking as an obese faculty member, I don't think weight plays a big role in admissions or even in getting a job (perhaps I am naive). For graduate admissions, applicants often don't realize the risk the professor is taking by accepting a student. We are making a long-term commitment to you, and a poor student is a significant drain on time and resources. I am not being dramatic with this, I had a poor student cost me on average 5 - 10 hours per week, which is brutal when you are on tenure track. Thus, I am very cautious about who I accept, and I would never consider taking someone who was less qualified because of appearance. As for getting a job many of the same rules apply: we are making a long-term commitment to you and we don't want to regret it. We want someone who will be able to make tenure and won't be a pain in the behind. I think every department has seen what happens when you tenure the wrong individual, and again, it is too big of a risk to take just because someone is attractive. Further, the natural assumption many people make when they see an obese person is that the individual is lazy, but an impressive vita can quickly overcome this bias. Therefore, in my personal experience and opinion, I don't think weight plays a huge role in admissions or job decisions in psychology. That said, this is all anecdotal, and if a large empirical study disagreed then I would defer to the empirical literature.
 
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On a personal note, I was over 100 pounds overweight when I applied to doctoral programs. I didn't feel any overt sense of judgement from any of the faculty members interviewing me at any of the programs I applied to. However, I do think that you feel like you have to work harder to convince others of your capabilities when you are overweight. For example, it's hard not to believe that if two candidates were equally qualified that the candidate of average weight might not be given preference over the overweight candidate, even if it wasn't done so intentionally. Also, when I was in my Master's program I remember my advisor telling me not to go to interviews for doctoral programs but to do them over the phone because of my weight. (Yep, he was a jerk.) I went anyways, because if a program wouldn't want me because of my weight then why would I want to be there.

On a side note, a psych professor at UNM was censured for "fat shaming." He tweeted, " "Dear obese PhD applicants: if you didn't have the willpower to stop eating carbs, you won't have the willpower to do a dissertation #truth." So I think the fear of being rejected is very really.
 
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Fat shaming is wrong of course, but I do think it important to set examples of healthy behavior. Personally, given the work I do, I don't feel like I really have the luxury of letting myself gain weight, smoke, not exercise, or eat crappy though. That's just my personal stance for me though.
 
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Fat shaming is wrong of course, but I do think it important to set examples of healthy behavior. Personally, given the work I do, I don't feel like I really have the luxury of letting myself gain weight, smoke, not exercise, or eat crappy though. That's just my personal stance for me though.

Kind of funny considering that I remember thinking how odd it is that a Psychologist would have an avatar pic of a person smoking, as it seemed like a bad example of "healthy behavior." ;-)

(Yes, I am aware of how sassy this comment is. I guess I feel like I try to set examples of healthy behavior for clients, but part of my doing so is acknowledging that I am overweight and I can be proud of myself even if I struggle with that domain of who I am.)
 
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What about those who may not have the type of healthy behavioral approaches you may have? Would they be considered less-than or below par, especially if compared to other normal BMI-type candidates? As a psychologist, do you focus on this one variable to the point to where others aren't considered equally? It brings up the idea of academic standardized tests. Do we simply say that those who score below certain percentiles on an exam are not as smart, motivated or goal striving? I understand the concept for wanting to weed out massive amounts of applicants via an "objective" score, however it really does leave out other competing and equally relevant factors that can contribute to success.

Personal story: After my mother and I were in a car accident when I was 7 years old I had slowly become encapsulated with learning disabilities. From 7 years of age until present I was always classified as learning disabled, especially with math. Going through middle and high school was not fun as I was always "special" in terms of being provided watered-down versions of tests, especially the TAKS test when I was a senior in high school. At no point did any of these school diagnosticians really seek to help me hone in and manage my learning disabilities, and as a kid and an eventual teenager, I was submissive to their authority and was under the assumption they knew best. I never applied myself in academics in grade school, all I did was focus on playing the trombone and got really really good at it for 15 years. I never took proper algebra or geometry as it was not required under my learning disability services in school. I scored a 13 on the ACT, however I was already accepted to Juilliard and other conservatories of music with the set mind that I would become a professional musician and never need to focus on academics (naive, I know). The point is, when the point in my life came to make the decision to switch careers, it was hard one, especially with the self-defeating prophecy I seemed to be fulfilling towards taking college-level academics in my undergrad. Rather than focusing on what my "normal" counterparts in class did, I focused on how I could function and how I could function doing it well. Admittedly, I was slow, taking 2-3 classes a semester, balancing out hard classes with less effortful ones to build up strength in how I studied. I started back at a community college and worked my way up to a university and graduated with a 3.75. I took multiple statistics courses in college with A's in both, these all became validating factors that the system was broke and that if the system had its way, I wouldn't have seen a B.A. hanging on my wall let alone a master's. The same is holding true with the GRE, this factor that was suppose to predict my performance in graduate school, especially the first year couldn't have been more wrong. I am getting A's in neuro-related courses, in doctoral level courses while researching and maintaing an active poster, manuscript and clinical life.

The moral to this story is, looking at one specific variable is harmful and not always representative, and it really is disheartening to see our profession be the one falling into the trap when we know so much about assessments, variability, diagnoses, etc. Subjectively, I feel like I will have to work much harder than a lot of my colleagues to achieve what they are doing...and that's fine, I love impossible goals :). I hope that people are not biased against larger applicants whether it be implicitly or explicitly, the net result is the same towards the applicant.
 
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I am not sure if that was directed at me, but I think we are at a point where we have a pretty well established list of healthy vs unhealthy behaviors.
 
No, not at you, only the "healthy behaviors" comment. Would an applicant who may not be establishing what is deemed "healthy" behaviors like over eating, lack of exercise be unfit to be a psychologist? It reminds me of a physician who denounces smoking towards their patients yet smoke themselves. It doesn't mean that doctor is incompetent nor are they providing inaccurate professional advice to their patient, but they are making their own independent choices about their personal lives. I would think that when the boundary of a professional's personal life impedes upon treating a patient, that would be cause for concern.
 
Unfit? No. Less buy in from clients if you are running a healthy lifestyles group? Probably.
 
I just want to chime in that although I live a relatively healthy lifestyle, I worry about the dangers of psychology being too puritanical. I have seen lectures on health psychology that basically implied that a goal of psychology was to make us all live forever by eating gluten free, vegan, soy-based, eco-friendly diets. I miss the days when psychologists could make everything about sex while smoking cigars.
 
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I haven't seen that level of health propaganda anywhere I've worked in psychology. I see more of the advocating for general healthy behaviors, e.g., smoking cessation, getting a minimum of exercise, glucose management, etc.

Maybe they're pushing for the hippie stuff on the coasts, but everything I've seen from health psychologists in institutional settings has focused on pragmatic behavior change.
 
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I haven't seen that level of health propaganda anywhere I've worked in psychology. I see more of the advocating for general healthy behaviors, e.g., smoking cessation, getting a minimum of exercise, glucose management, etc.

Maybe they're pushing for the hippie stuff on the coasts, but everything I've seen from health psychologists in institutional settings has focused on pragmatic behavior change.

I've also seen more of this as well. I have seen SOME of what smalltownpsych is talking about, but it seemed to me to have mostly been spouted by psychs who were clueless about nutrition/exercise research and were reaching way past their competencies.
 
I've also seen more of this as well. I have seen SOME of what smalltownpsych is talking about, but it seemed to me to have mostly been spouted by psychs who were clueless about nutrition/exercise research and were reaching way past their competencies.
That is exactly what I was seeing too. However, I do worry a bit about the "advocating" for healthy behaviors perspective. I don't like psychologists to advocate too much because it can be such a slippery slope. Should I advocate for people to not smoke marijuana? or drink wine? or to not have "risky" practices in their sex lives? or smoke cigars? or fight in the UFC? or play football? All of these behaviors can have significant health risks. The flip side would be should I as a psychologist advocate for parents to stay married? for people to be involved in a church? For gay marriage? These have been associated with positive health outcomes. Who decides where we draw the lines? It can blur the lines of science and opinion.
 
That's not exactly how health psychology works in practice. We don't dictate what people do. We can educate them on healthy and unhealthy behaviors as the literature says. If they have no desire to change said behaviors, that is their choice, health psychologists work on education, and when a desire to change an unhealthy behavior is indicated, they work with the individual to make that change. The patient draws the line.
 
I was more referring to psychologists in general should be on guard against this type of thinking as opposed to a critique of one specialty. A couple of times I have read things in the APA monitor that concerned me as to what they are advocating at times. I would rather have them focus on advocating for more money for us!
 
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I was more referring to psychologists in general should be on guard against this type of thinking as opposed to a critique of one specialty. A couple of times I have read things in the APA monitor that concerned me as to what they are advocating at times. I would rather have them focus on advocating for more money for us!

Do you remember what it was? Just curious.
 
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I am not surprised that it stated this was seen more with women. I mean no disrespect towards men by this statement, but the standards of beauty set forth for women are stricter than men. We are supposed to fit into this social role of pretty, thin yet curvy, smart yet not too smart, motherly yet independent so on and so forth. This is not to say that everyone views us in this light and will deny us admission based upon the fact that our eyebrows are not waxed, but women are held to a certain standard. Is this sexism? Yes, yes indeed. I am not trying to exclude men on this post, but the general idea of the post has been touched on enough so I felt like bringing up the gender aspect.
 
Might be a reason for that.

Cournot, M., Marquie, J. C., Ansiau, D., Martinaud, C., Fonds, H., Ferrieres, J., & Ruidavets, J. B. (2006). Relation between body mass index and cognitive function in healthy middle-aged men and women. Neurology, 67(7), 1208-1214. doi: 10.1212/01.wnl.0000238082.13860.50
 
There are several limitations to that study. To start, the decline in working memory as measured by Word List/recall was attributed to general aging, not obesity. In fact, you can see in the results that in each follow up when measured vertically, each recall of Word List Learning increased but decreased longitudinally at each follow up visit. Secondly, age stratification is not entirely representative of a typical graduate student cohort. Most of their ages were 32, 42, 52 and 62. This presents some confounding variability in that in the fifth decade of life, while accented symptoms of AD (probable or possible) are not seen, 52 is generally the typical prodromal period for many people that progress into possible and then probable AD that later develop more accented features of cortical dementia. In their discussion, they admit that at baseline, higher BMI correlated with declining cognitive function when assessed at follow up. However, generally speaking BMI by itself did not predict decline in cognitive function. Also, they mentioned their results indicated that their sample consisted of a general tendency to gain weight due to aging, this weight subsequently was not directly attributable to cognitive decline.

I think they could have done better by providing a more representative body (18-20, 21-25, 26-30, etc.) Also, their sampling technique was based on profession, so there is slight convenience to that. Also, if interjecting a more broad sample, DSST presents significant ceiling effects in the 18-35 range, so some other assessment would need to be used in a counterbalanced fashion. Overall, it made for a good study I think, very interesting to see that baseline BMI showed a better progression in cognitive decline. However, to use this study as a means to correlate that obese 26 year olds applying to a Ph.D. with pre-existing 4-6 years of post-secondary education would somehow due to their BMI their cognitive capacity would apparently be impaired and detrimental as a future professional.
 
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I am not surprised that it stated this was seen more with women. I mean no disrespect towards men by this statement, but the standards of beauty set forth for women are stricter than men. We are supposed to fit into this social role of pretty, thin yet curvy, smart yet not too smart, motherly yet independent so on and so forth. This is not to say that everyone views us in this light and will deny us admission based upon the fact that our eyebrows are not waxed, but women are held to a certain standard. Is this sexism? Yes, yes indeed. I am not trying to exclude men on this post, but the general idea of the post has been touched on enough so I felt like bringing up the gender aspect.

Well, it is akin to a job interview, so anyone showing up not conforming to general ideas about interview appearance standards is probably in bad shape. Women certainly have to do more than men to get to the body state that is considered interview-acceptable.

I don't think I've ever seen someone be treated badly based on appearance at doc programs interviews, having been on both sides of it now. Faculty would have no idea what people look like until they get to the interview, and most of us care infinitely more about competency than appearance.

Edit: Thinking about it, I could see that kind of thing coming from grad students who have bad boundaries maybe, if they were more interested in a potential mate than a colleague. Again, not something I've ever SEEN but I'd bet it happens on occasion.
 
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Adding to some of the above--I've never heard of, seen, or felt a tacit trend to rank an applicant poorly based on weight/body size/body type. I certainly have heard appearance (particularly dress) come into play when it was deemed "inappropriate," though. Same goes for social behaviors (e.g., being "too familiar" or too informal, cursing, being significantly anxious, coming across as exceedingly cocky or disinterested, etc.).

Just in my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt and all that--the dress-related comments typically
 
Adding to some of the above--I've never heard of, seen, or felt a tacit trend to rank an applicant poorly based on weight/body size/body type. I certainly have heard appearance (particularly dress) come into play when it was deemed "inappropriate," though. Same goes for social behaviors (e.g., being "too familiar" or too informal, cursing, being significantly anxious, coming across as exceedingly cocky or disinterested, etc.).

Just in my personal experience, so take it with a grain of salt and all that--the dress-related comments typically

My experience is the same on the "dressed like you're about to hit a nightclub" thing, and rudeness to others (including other applicants, which some applicants seem to think is ok for some reason...).
 
My experience is the same on the "dressed like you're about to hit a nightclub" thing, and rudeness to others (including other applicants, which some applicants seem to think is ok for some reason...).

Yep, that sums up most of what I've seen be addressed. Very occasionally staff members will say the applicant was overtly rude/dismissive toward them, but like you've mentioned, it's more frequently brought up based on actions toward other applicants during lunch, group interviews, down time, etc.
 
My experience is the same on the "dressed like you're about to hit a nightclub" thing, and rudeness to others (including other applicants, which some applicants seem to think is ok for some reason...).
Yep, or sleeping during the "welcome to interview day" meeting--as exhausting as the interview trail can be, this has zero chance or reflecting well on an applicant.
 
Couldn't this result be explained by the Halo Effect?
 
Cogneuroguy,

Usually in formal debate, we offer empirically supported alternate views.
There is truth to that statement; however, I don't know if there would be a published study showing no connection between weight and cognitive decline because studies with no findings don't get published. Also, I think a critique of the study including alternative explanations for the findings is quite appropriate and is standard practice within the study itself. My critical thinking skills as a researcher immediately go to the limitations of a study whenever I read it and I am glad that a psych student is doing just that.
 
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High weight is a solid risk factor for cerbrovascular insult. It contributes to the major risks (diabetes, hypertension, hyperlipidemia). In older studies you will definitely see lower cog function in high BMI individuals. Now, if you controlled for the secondary effects I don't know what you'd see, but then again, I don't see too many >30BMI patients who don't have high blood pressure, cholesterol, and diabetes, so I think those would be hard to parcel out in a large enough sample.
 
High weight is a solid risk factor for cerbrovascular insult. It contributes to the major risks (diabetes, hypertension, hyperlipidemia). In older studies you will definitely see lower cog function in high BMI individuals. Now, if you controlled for the secondary effects I don't know what you'd see, but then again, I don't see too many >30BMI patients who don't have high blood pressure, cholesterol, and diabetes, so I think those would be hard to parcel out in a large enough sample.

250 lbs, 8% bf checking in. BMI of 32. Perfect labs.

JK, I know you mean general population. :)
 
True, I hate the BMI for it's inaccuracy with people who are fit and exercise regularly as well. But, in my patient population, those people are <5% of who I see. I've always been less than average in bf% and obese by BMI standards, That's what you get for exercising and lifting weights for 2 decades.
 
Pretty shameful, and worse when they use their credentials (i.e. being a Ph.D. professional) to further their abrasive/abusive/ignorant causes. After reading that article, I figured that I would be pretty open in my response to their unfounded and unfair criticism. Even more interesting, growing up, I think most of us were taught that bullying, making fun of others, etc. was wrong and cruel, but when one reaches a certain age it all of a sudden becomes standard and accepted practice, in environments that are competitive. I remember working for a company and I had a colleague and my boss repeatedly keeping on hounding me about going to a gym, etc. It was pretty offensive, and none of their business.
 
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I guess my main question is do the rates of this bias differ at all? We can all agree that this type of thing exists, that's not a question. I'm just not sure there is an epidemic of it in psychology. We can always drum up an anecdote or two, but the plural of anecdote is not data.
 
"250 lbs, 8% bf checking in. BMI of 32. Perfect labs."


Typo? Perfect labs or perfect abs?

My labs are perfect. :p no cholesterol or other problems.

The "95% of diets fail" thing is popular right now. A large amounts of diets fail, or a large amount of people fail to adhere to them? (which is fine, do what you want with your own body, but the weight regain is due to falling into old habits not due to broccoli containing more calories after you have been on a diet for 4 months)
 
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My labs are perfect. :p no cholesterol or other problems.

The "95% of diets fail" thing is popular right now. A large amounts of diets fail, or a large amount of people fail to adhere to them? (which is fine, do what you want with your own body, but the weight regain is due to falling into old habits not due to broccoli containing more calories after you have been on a diet for 4 months)

Also, the initial failure rate of dieting should not be a disclaimer to try again. Take smoking for example, most people try to quit at least a handful of times before being successful in stopping in the long run. The people who quit cold turkey and maintain in in the first go round are in the vast minority. No need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
 
My labs are perfect. :p no cholesterol or other problems.

The "95% of diets fail" thing is popular right now. A large amounts of diets fail, or a large amount of people fail to adhere to them? (which is fine, do what you want with your own body, but the weight regain is due to falling into old habits not due to broccoli containing more calories after you have been on a diet for 4 months)

The "95% of diets fail and so we should never diet" thing (which, AFAIK, comes from one fairly small n study in the 1950s) seems akin to saying that most people who try to quit smoking fail, so ergo, smokers should never attempt to quit. There's definite reason to talk about sustainable lifestyle changes instead of crash diets, though, because no one can (or should) eat nothing but grapefruit for the next 40 years, and crash diets don't teach sustainable, flexible changes in eating habits that can be carried out long term.
 
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The "95% of diets fail and so we should never diet" thing (which, AFAIK, comes from one fairly small n study in the 1950s) seems akin to saying that most people who try to quit smoking fail, so ergo, smokers should never attempt to quit. There's definite reason to talk about sustainable lifestyle changes instead of crash diets, though, because no one can (or should) eat nothing but grapefruit for the next 40 years, and crash diets don't teach sustainable, flexible changes in eating habits that can be carried out long term.

Completely agree. If I hadn't kept trying to give up smoking after I failed the first time I tried to quit (or the 5th time!), I would still be a smoker. It's just really really hard, but you just have to keep at it. And yes, dieting is all about lifestyle changes. Not just working out until you get to your "goal weight," but making exercise a part of your routine even after you have lost the weight. I used to drink a lot of soda, now I don't drink any at all. It took me awhile to get from a lot of soda a day to a little bit a day to none at all, but it made a big difference (health reasons, lost an extra 10 pounds). Not advocating that people deprive themselves of something completely, I just lost the desire to drink soda over time. When the changes you make in your lifestyle (exercise, diet) include the goal of being healthier overall in addition to losing weight, I think they stick easier, and as a result, the weight you lose stays off.
 
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The "95% of diets fail and so we should never diet" thing (which, AFAIK, comes from one fairly small n study in the 1950s) seems akin to saying that most people who try to quit smoking fail, so ergo, smokers should never attempt to quit. There's definite reason to talk about sustainable lifestyle changes instead of crash diets, though, because no one can (or should) eat nothing but grapefruit for the next 40 years, and crash diets don't teach sustainable, flexible changes in eating habits that can be carried out long term.

Pure anecdote - I gained 40-50 pounds between internship and postdoc, hit a BMI of 32.5 (I'm tall). Lost 60 of it halfway through postdoc via Atkins, gained back about half of that a year later and have kept the rest of since (most of the gain was lean - lot of weightlifting). Sustainability is what it's all about.
 
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