Benefits of Being Non-Trad?

[RaistlinMajere]

What do you think are the most important benefits of being a non-traditional pre-med student? Or do you view being older as a disadvantage?

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[MsEvolution]

What do you think are the most important benefits of being a non-traditional pre-med student? Or do you view being older as a disadvantage?

I think it's an advantage, and that's how I've portrayed it in my PS and my secondaries. Life experience. Anyone can learn the science... but nothing endows you with compassion and empathy like real life. Divorce. Financial struggles. Taking care of your elderly parents. All of these things will later allow you to understand, anticipate and advocate for your patient's access to healthcare.

 

[RaistlinMajere]

Well said. Thank you.

 

[mshheaddoc]

Just so you know there is a complete forum of Non-trads on this website:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forumdisplay.php?f=110

Lots of us out there if you are a non-trad

Cheers!

 

[RaistlinMajere]

I'll check it out. Thanks.

 

[Krazed_Medic]

yeah, us non trads know what it's like in the "real world". It's definately a totally different ball game out there.

 

[DrMom]

moving to the non-trad forum

 

[flighterdoc]

What do you think are the most important benefits of being a non-traditional pre-med student? Or do you view being older as a disadvantage?

Experience, maturity, and ways to destroy your opponents (Drako voice: I must break you)

Plus, we're not doing something because we're expected to, or don't have any other ideas of what to do - many of us have had pretty decent careers that paid well, and just don't thrill us any more.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

As an older non-trad, the adcoms know that you are comitted to medicine. Unlike the guppies just coming out of college (straight from HS), older, non trads are more mature and can handle pressure and patients better.

How many college kids do you know that can, feed an infant, chase a toddler, answer the phone, stir the pasta, fold the laundry, and clean the table at the same time?

 

[Dr Sum Day]

I want to echo all of your statements. Plus, for me, the experiences were very humbling, especially when I was a warehouse laborer during my late teens & early twenties. I was so darn tired after work.....and that stinking one-hour drive I did. Once home, I'd fall asleep in the chair without changing my dirt-covered clothes (I never wore white!). The military kicked my butt a few times too. The other good thing was I learned alot from different kinds of people; I listened without judgement. good thread

 

[njbmd]

As an older non-trad, the adcoms know that you are comitted to medicine. Unlike the guppies just coming out of college (straight from HS), older, non trads are more mature and can handle pressure and patients better.

How many college kids do you know that can, feed an infant, chase a toddler, answer the phone, stir the pasta, fold the laundry, and clean the table at the same time?

Hi there,

As the numbers show, your statement above is not exactly true. Non-traditionals tend not to do as well as trads in medical school and many have had great difficulty with the academics. Being able to handle your domestic chores has not translated into being being able to handle medical school which is a pre-req to being able to handle patients.

Those that make it through medical school have tended to be able to perform well in residency (myself included) but be very, very cautious with the smug attitude until you get there and get out. I have seen both sides of the coin and it is quite humbling. While I do not question your drive and dedication to the study of medicine, you have to get in and perform well. Medical school will challenge you on lots of levels that you can't imagine and residency is even more of a challenge.

I have an infinite amount of respect for my traditional colleagues as like me, they have made it through. The advantage of being non-traditional is that I am comfortable enough in my skin that I can accept my limitations and thrive in an ever changing career. ( I am a general surgeon). There are many things that I do much better than my traditional colleagues and there some things that they do better than me. In the end, we all strive to perform well and we are all fairly even.

Good luck!
njbmd

 

[NontradICUdoc]

I may not have been too clear on what I was trying to bring across. While more traditional students have also worked hard in order to get into medical school, many have not had to juggle other responsibilities such as going to school while raising a family while having a full time job.

They lack the wisdom and patience that only comes with time and experience. A 27 year old who went to medical school right from college certainly cannot understand what it is like not to be able to take a child to the doctor because of not having a babysitter for the other children or not being able to take care of two children by themselves so the medication was not given at the proper time.

A person who has never had to cope with the rigors of life cannot understand why a 50 year old man has a heart attack because he found out that he might lose his job and he still has 10 years left on the mortgage.

Also, while a person who went to medical school right out of college may have been preparing for this their whole life, they do not know what else is out there because they never experienced it and may want to experience it 1/2 way through school. Onthe other hand non-trads have "been there, done that" and usually will not quite 1/2 way through. At least, these are my hypotheses. Of course I am not on the other side and so I am only guessing.

 

[efex101]

I have to disagree being in medical school and observing what my colleagues have done. Most actually do *have* experience also I have met non-trads that have not much experience. I do not think that being older necessarily means being wiser and more experienced. There are some folks that have lived more in less years...just fyi. I do agree with Nat that non-trads because they do have more things vying for their time may actually not perform as well in medical school...this is not a blanket statement but just observations.

 

[peehdee]

Ok,
Most people will say things like, 'life experience, mature, seen the world' etc. etc.. when comparing older (lets say over 27) versus the young bucs (21 or 22). So in terms of being able to do well in medical school, doesn't it come down to being able to get honors or high pass and getting high board scores?

I don't how being older is going to let you have better grades and higher board scores. The ones right out of college, younger can probably study harder and longer than older applicants. Thus, they should in general get more honors. You could say an older applicant can get better marks in the clinics. But again, this may not be true. In the end if you don't care about being on top of your class, it doesn't really matter if you're older or 19. We will all get MD (or DO) after our names.

My questions are these:

1) are older applicants more likely to get in to top/competitive residencies? (since it is based on board scores and how many honors you have)
2) what are the stats on those?
3) do residencies actually care that you did 'other' things? I mean having work in the 'real' world is not going to get you pass a low board score is it? or not having honors is classes?


So I guess what I'm saying is that unless being older means you can get really good marks in the clinics, all the 'life experiences' won't get you high basic science or board scores. The basic science and board score reflect hard work and your memory as far as I'm concerned. We all learn the same things and read the same books. So those that do better just remember more facts better. And being older if anything would actually make you have diminished memory.

I'd like to hear your thoughs on this.

Cheers.

 

[efex101]

From talking to various residency directors and medical students ahead of me...it all boils down to NOT your first and second year grades although you do want to pass and beyond if you can...it is imperative that you do well on USMLE and kick arse in third and fourth year rotations THAT is what is important along with glowing LOR's from people in the specialty that you are looking into getting into .Do not go get LOR's from internal medicine if you are thinking of surgery that is a no brainer. Some residencies WILL be biased against older applicants and some will be biased against women that is just the nature of some residencies. Some of these may be neurosurgery and other residencies that require a long training. Also age comes into play when you are well into your thirties almost forty and applying for neurosurgery...this is just the opinion of some residents so it is not written in stone but it kind of makes sense. This will not affect (our age) for shorter residencies such as general surgery and the such..I think it is mostly for those specialties that the training is very very long. Also yes, residency directors do like folks with "life experience" and this should be a plus BUT the bottom line is USMLE, 3rd and 4th year grades, LOR's, research (for competitive ones)..

 

[Jeff3614]

The difference between 22 and 30 is huge. Working a full time job, paying a mortgage, raising a kid, being married, taking care of older parents - the list goes on and on. I'm not going to dis anyone who is applying to medical school in thier early twenties, but there is a huge level of 'real' responsibilites that younger college grads don't consider until they are living it themselves. I don't think anyone is calling traditional students stupid or incapable, but there is an undeniable deficit of real world experience that most grads have coming out of school. Most older folks will agree that they were the same way, myself included.

And, I don't believe traditional students have any more advantage than non-traditional students. If anything, you're doing yourself a favor by taking a few years off and getting a job and then going back to school. Judging by the national medical school age average of 25 years old and growing, it's pretty clear that medical schools value older students and encourage a few years off.

-Jeff-

 

[njbmd]

Ok,

My questions are these:

1) are older applicants more likely to get in to top/competitive residencies? (since it is based on board scores and how many honors you have)
2) what are the stats on those?
3) do residencies actually care that you did 'other' things? I mean having work in the 'real' world is not going to get you pass a low board score is it? or not having honors is classes?


So those that do better just remember more facts better. And being older if anything would actually make you have diminished memory.

I'd like to hear your thoughs on this.

Cheers.

Hi there,
I was one of the older students in my medical school class. I was no more likely to "forget" facts than the youngest person in my class who just happened to be my study partner. I outscored him on USMLE (all three steps) and outscored him in class rank and I am in a General Surgery residency ( he chose Internal Medicine). He had a very different learning style and is a very smart person having been in one of the BS-MD slots.

I do not think that my performance in medical school had anything to do with my age. I have always been a very good student and I have always been able to master material very quickly. USMLE and most allopathic medical schools that use traditional methods of lecture and recall exams tend to favor folks who can assimulate large amounts of material quickly. This is not, I repeat NOT age related.

When I interviewed for residency, I was one of the oldest applicants. Not one residency director ask about my age. Most commented on my excellent letters, my excellent performance in medical school and my research.

Being non-traditional does not confer any special abilities that you do not already have. Non-traditional students as a group tend not to do as well in medical school as their traditional counterparts but many do better. I have been fortunate to encounter attendings and program directors who are able to look at individual performance as opposed to trying to label a diverse group of people.

Performance in medical school is a very individual matter and is keyed to what you bring with you as opposed to what group you belong to. Surprisingly, it is very difficult to pick out the non-trads from the traditional students once classes start. Unlike pre-med studies where everyone is fixated on grade point averages and MCAT scores, medical students are a more homogeneous group. The difference between a 71 average and a 85 average is not readily apparent. In the end, the whole spectrum of my class graduated and all are excellent physicians who were able to get into good residencies.

njbmd

 

[peehdee]

thanks for the reply.

sounds to me like you're pretty much saying what i thought. being older doesn't really make that much of a difference. you can have a young student who can out do an older and vice versa. it all comes down to individual. so to say that being 'older' is an advantage doesn't really stand the test. does it?

cheers

Hi there,
I was one of the older students in my medical school class. I was no more likely to "forget" facts than the youngest person in my class who just happened to be my study partner. I outscored him on USMLE (all three steps) and outscored him in class rank and I am in a General Surgery residency ( he chose Internal Medicine). He had a very different learning style and is a very smart person having been in one of the BS-MD slots.

I do not think that my performance in medical school had anything to do with my age. I have always been a very good student and I have always been able to master material very quickly. USMLE and most allopathic medical schools that use traditional methods of lecture and recall exams tend to favor folks who can assimulate large amounts of material quickly. This is not, I repeat NOT age related.

When I interviewed for residency, I was one of the oldest applicants. Not one residency director ask about my age. Most commented on my excellent letters, my excellent performance in medical school and my research.

Being non-traditional does not confer any special abilities that you do not already have. Non-traditional students as a group tend not to do as well in medical school as their traditional counterparts but many do better. I have been fortunate to encounter attendings and program directors who are able to look at individual performance as opposed to trying to label a diverse group of people.

Performance in medical school is a very individual matter and is keyed to what you bring with you as opposed to what group you belong to. Surprisingly, it is very difficult to pick out the non-trads from the traditional students once classes start. Unlike pre-med studies where everyone is fixated on grade point averages and MCAT scores, medical students are a more homogeneous group. The difference between a 71 average and a 85 average is not readily apparent. In the end, the whole spectrum of my class graduated and all are excellent physicians who were able to get into good residencies.

njbmd

 

[Reckoning]

Hi guys,
I am a bit of lurker, but was intrigued by thread...

I am 30 and hope to begin Med school next year. In studying for my MCAT and writing applications I took basically the opposite opinion of my potential for medical school success as some of those posted. Although I am a dad, a "successful" engineer, homeowner, etc. which may make me a more balanced and responsible person than I was when I was 21, I decided I had to work doubletime to compete with recent college grads and still keep up with my responsibilities.

I don't think Med school is going to be any different. I figure I can't study all day, every day so I am going to get less sleep than my fellow traditional students. I am shooting for an orthopedics residency so I am going have to do well on top of my number one job: being a good dad and husband. It ain't gonna be easy but I'm ready to lay it on the line.

We gotta keep a level head, which we've earned with our life experiences.

Just my .02.

 

[punchberry]

I think one big advantage of being older is having spent more time contemplating one's career options, choices, and aspirations. It's my observation that non-trad pre-meds have a better understanding of why they want to be a doctor, what they are sacrificing, etc. I don't think this gives us an academic or professional advantage, but will hopefully increase our probability of being happier in the long run.

 

[DrDad]

good stuff in this forum .... YUP

 

[fuegorama]

This thread has filtered down over the past few days, but still has some life left in it. To echo what NJBMD has said, non-trads do "traditionally" perform at a lower level than their younger counterparts. This is not an absolute, but it holds up as a rule.
I am the old man (36) to a group of incredibly bright kidz. They make up the top 10% of my class. Although treated as a study and social equal, I rarely break out of the mid 80s while they repeatedly smash 90%.

They kindly attribute this to their recent graduation and familiarity with testing, but after a year of classes and exams together we have retained an amazingly even distribution.

Med school is an amazing ride, but it is not for the weak. I have had a fairly experienced life thus far, but I swear that the past year and 3 months feels like a lifetime. I would gamble large bags o'doubloons that my super-smart compadres do not feel this way.

Is this age or am I simply a slightly over-average student?
I don't know the answer to this question, but I do know what it feels like to leave a good paying job that gave me satisfaction and a feeling of self-worth. That sentiment is not something I am currently experiencing as a second year student.

From a non-trad who always dreamed of being a physician (after being a musician, firefighter, paramedic, successful house restorer, RN and husband) the clinical years better get a lot better or I have made a tremendous mistake.

On the flip-side, non-trad docs were always my favorite folks with which to work. They are better adjusted, and uber competent. They seemed to have a little better handle on how to get some living done. Unless you are a fairly exceptional kiddo, I really can't see the draw to medicine as the profession. How do these folks relate to Joe-the-rag-man when lthey haven't been exposed to Joe's world?

I've been Joe...now I want to be Joe's doc.

 

[peehdee]

This thread has filtered down over the past few days, but still has some life left in it. To echo what NJBMD has said, non-trads do "traditionally" perform at a lower level than their younger counterparts. This is not an absolute, but it holds up as a rule.
I am the old man (36) to a group of incredibly bright kidz. They make up the top 10% of my class. Although treated as a study and social equal, I rarely break out of the mid 80s while they repeatedly smash 90%.

do you mean to say that being equeal they simply do better than you in exams? and you think this might have to do with studying?


They kindly attribute this to their recent graduation and familiarity with testing, but after a year of classes and exams together we have retained an amazingly even distribution.


i think a lot has to do with the fact that these younger ones have something to 'prove'. they haven't done anything else in life. they still feel like they have to know everything. so they study and study and study. as an older student you tend to say, 'heck, if i need that i can look it up on a chart, not memorize it bc i'll forget it anyway. i think the first two years of medical school is a test of memory. if you can memorize the most facts you'll do well. i know we're supposed to 'think' and all, but it comes down to remembering if CD28 goes with B7 or some other receptor. or that DiGeorge's syndrome is a cancer of the cervix or thusmus problem. we all read just about the same things and it comes down to who remembered the most after studying and reading all the materials for class. and i think in general younger med students still have that competitive heart that says, i'm gonna get the highest i can get.




Med school is an amazing ride, but it is not for the weak. I have had a fairly experienced life thus far, but I swear that the past year and 3 months feels like a lifetime. I would gamble large bags o'doubloons that my super-smart compadres do not feel this way.

agreed


Is this age or am I simply a slightly over-average student?
I don't know the answer to this question, but I do know what it feels like to leave a good paying job that gave me satisfaction and a feeling of self-worth. That sentiment is not something I am currently experiencing as a second year student.


yeah, not haveing money sucks. big time. and people say, 'i dont' care about the money, i wanna help people'. only a naive 21 year old would say that

From a non-trad who always dreamed of being a physician (after being a musician, firefighter, paramedic, successful house restorer, RN and husband) the clinical years better get a lot better or I have made a tremendous mistake.



On the flip-side, non-trad docs were always my favorite folks with which to work. They are better adjusted, and uber competent. They seemed to have a little better handle on how to get some living done. Unless you are a fairly exceptional kiddo, I really can't see the draw to medicine as the profession. How do these folks relate to Joe-the-rag-man when lthey haven't been exposed to Joe's world?

i think this is probably true in general. on average the older ones will be able to relate better with their patients. think about it when you were 24 years old, would you have been comfy talking with a 40 year old about their problems? some younger ones do just fine. but on average the older ones do better. over stated but, something about being older. and contrary to what some people say, i'm talking about people who are in their late 20s. i'm not talking about a 21 year old who decided to take a year off to work in a lab and call that 'life experience'.


I've been Joe...now I want to be Joe's doc.

good luck buddy. what is it like being a husbang and studying? it must be hard? any kids? or trying? ;-)


redred

 

[peehdee]

how do i cut and paste so that if i'm responding to a long post that i can reply to just one paragraph or sentence at a time. look at my last post for an example.

 

[efex101]

I totally agree with the above poster...medical school is the by far the hardest thing I have EVER done period (combat was easier than this). There is ZERO time for yourself and much less for your family. Do I like it? most of the time but not all the time would I do it if I had know how this would be? I really do not know. I am in the first semester though which by far most have told me that it is the worst.....

 

[NonTradMed]

I think one big advantage of being older is having spent more time contemplating one's career options, choices, and aspirations. It's my observation that non-trad pre-meds have a better understanding of why they want to be a doctor, what they are sacrificing, etc. I don't think this gives us an academic or professional advantage, but will hopefully increase our probability of being happier in the long run.

I can't speak for others, but that is what I got out of my two years in the work world. My undergraduate was competitive, and it was easy to lose sight of 'reality' in school, because we lived in a bubble of grades, GPA, and professors.

After I left school to go to work, I got a better perspective of what life is, what having a job is like, and what would make me happier. I guess working in the work world gave me better perspective.

I'm not sure if being nontrad confers any admissions advantage, but I think, on average, the nontrad will have more emotional maturity. Certainly, people who follow a path less travelled, giving up their job, relocating their families etc have shown an amount of dedication many traditional students do not have to show. And I'd like to think people who are willing to make these types of sacrifices truly know they do this out of love for the profession.

 

[Paws]

A person who has never had to cope with the rigors of life cannot understand why a 50 year old man has a heart attack because he found out that he might lose his job and he still has 10 years left on the mortgage.

Also, while a person who went to medical school right out of college may have been preparing for this their whole life, they do not know what else is out there because they never experienced it and may want to experience it 1/2 way through school. Onthe other hand non-trads have "been there, done that" and usually will not quite 1/2 way through.

This makes me think of the great quote (from who? I can't remember ... Samuel Johnson?) that says: "what can you know of London, if London is all you know?"

In other words, you need to see and do other things in order to appreciate what you actually have right in front of you. I think being a nontrad helps me appreciate actually being here now. I know what it's like when you describe the man above, and I thought this was a great post.




On another comment people were making, I think of what my Histo professor said when I got a 70 on my first test, and thought: oh my God! I am flunking out already! He said, don't worry about the 21 year olds who are memorizing their way through the classes and acing the exams, just do your best and learn the materrial. When you get to the clinical years, you will do very well and that's where the people who get by on memorizing will tend to struggle.

That made me feel alot better, because that's where I am confident in my life skills and abilitites. In the end, I can always look up a formula or check a fact, but if I am not able to understand my patients and communicate well with them, then all my knowledge is diddly.

 

[golytlely]

I commend anyone who has been out in the real world for choosing the harsh reality of paychecks, and travelling, and independence to sacrifice and go to med school. I myself chose that route and never regret it. I am finished med school and in the middle of residency, and would like to dispel a couple of rumours for those on the fence.

1. Medical school is the hardest 4 yrs of your life.--- Way wrong, medical school is actually a walk in the park compared to your life after med school. Residency and above is now putting more pressure on docs despite the 80 hour work week. If you think once med school is over everything is candy canes and lollipops you are wrong.

2. After age 30 it isn't worth it to pursue another career. In the working world 30 is still a baby, and even a rigorous path that would be 12 years of training including med school you have 20-30 good yrs ahead of you, and that 12 yrs isn't wasted behind some desk punching buttons.

3. Medicine is a sure fire financial bet -- also wrong, you are usually 100-200 thousand in debt when it is all said and done, and the majority will only be making enough to squeak a mortgage and loan payments out with some left over for savings.

4. It isn't worth the pain - wrong-- It is so worth it and the first time you connect with and help someone get better you realize that. So keep on keeping on no matter how old you are.

Nontrad MD

 

[evajaclynn]

I commend anyone who has been out in the real world for choosing the harsh reality of paychecks, and travelling, and independence to sacrifice and go to med school. I myself chose that route and never regret it. I am finished med school and in the middle of residency, and would like to dispel a couple of rumours for those on the fence.

1. Medical school is the hardest 4 yrs of your life.--- Way wrong, medical school is actually a walk in the park compared to your life after med school. Residency and above is now putting more pressure on docs despite the 80 hour work week. If you think once med school is over everything is candy canes and lollipops you are wrong.

2. After age 30 it isn't worth it to pursue another career. In the working world 30 is still a baby, and even a rigorous path that would be 12 years of training including med school you have 20-30 good yrs ahead of you, and that 12 yrs isn't wasted behind some desk punching buttons.

3. Medicine is a sure fire financial bet -- also wrong, you are usually 100-200 thousand in debt when it is all said and done, and the majority will only be making enough to squeak a mortgage and loan payments out with some left over for savings.

4. It isn't worth the pain - wrong-- It is so worth it and the first time you connect with and help someone get better you realize that. So keep on keeping on no matter how old you are.

Nontrad MD

Nice post. Thanks for the reaffirmations!