Best Body Radiology Fellowships in the US

[cwfergus]

What are some of the best body radiology fellowships in USA?

Any advice is much appreciated!

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[Radology]

Basically Every well known radiology department offers a good body training. Avoid places with scant mri time (Duke). Decide if procedures or electives are important to you.

 

[SageRad]

I do not know the answer. As a private practice radiologist, I would be looking to hire a body radiologist with either mammo skills or light IR skills (thoras, paras, biopsies, etc.) or, ideally, both. I would also like my newly trained body radiologist hire to be proficient in CT colons and prostate and rectal MRI.

That's what we need in our practice, others may be different. If you know where you would like to work, it might be useful to contact that practice and find out what skill sets they are looking for and find a fellowship that checks as many of the boxes as possible.

 

[choweee]

R4 here. For body, some programs are MRI heavy and others have no MR. Some programs include procedures, others not at all. So, the "best" fellowship is the one that fits your interests and is in a location where you would like to find a job.

 

[JoshSt]

I wish someone would take a legitimate stab at your question OP.

 

[Radology]

You can't just give a general ranking of body programs, for the reasons we've mentioned. they're too different

 

[Gadofosveset]

After someone attempts this, could he or she please rank mammals in terms of awesomeness? The more complex the rationale, the better.

 

[qwerty89]

R4 here. For body, some programs are MRI heavy and others have no MR. Some programs include procedures, others not at all. So, the "best" fellowship is the one that fits your interests and is in a location where you would like to find a job.

How can you have a body fellowship without body MR? Isn't that the whole point? You should feel comfortable reading body CTs after residency alone.

 

[sievert_fever]

Ok, I'll take a stab.

1) Honey Badger: for obvious reasons
2) Blue Whale: for being the largest mammal... of all time (*Kanye's voice*)
3) Red Panda: they're like the Pluto of panda bears
4) North American Oppossum: like most North Americans, it sleeps 18 hours per day and still somehow manages to "earn" a living
5) Pigs: for most potential culinary diversity (pork cutlets, whole hog, pork belly, bacon, pulled pork, pork ribs, ham, pork loin, and many more)
6) Chinese Pangolin: "...in Chinese legend pangolins are said to travel all around the world underground." Enough said.
7) Platypus: The unusual appearance of this egg-laying, duck-billed, beaver-tailed, otter-footed mammal baffled European naturalists when they first encountered it, with some considering it an elaborate hoax.
8) Pink Fairy Armadillo: the appearance and actual attributes are rather disappointing, but the name is tough to beat
9) Jackalope: the founder of Fake News, trolling school children since 1930
10) Humans: "With human-tamed animals occupying all of the previous nine positions of most populous mammals on Earth, it becomes quite evident that the topmost position in this list can be occupied by only one possible mammal. That is, the human beings that domesticated them themselves."

 

[Radology]

It's funny how much I thought I knew about body ct until I did a body fellowship

You only realize how foolish this sentiment is when you're on the other end.

But yes, there are programs with embarrassingly low MR volume, including big names.

 

[badasshairday]

It's funny how much I thought I knew about body ct until I did a body fellowship

Whaaaat? What kind of residency did you go to? One with a bunch of body fellows gobbling up cases?

 

[Radology]

No, quite the opposite. I was just pleasantly surprised that there were a lot of nuances still to learn during my fellowship. Maybe just having a different programs mentality, but CT was still quite beneficial

 

[JoshSt]

Sigh. I wish someone would take a shot. People certainly aren't shy about listing their perception of top IR training places and neuro fellowships.

Let me try and give some qualifiers:
1. Best body MR fellowships
2. Best balanced body imaging and procedural fellowships, little or no MR
3. Best balanced body imaging and procedural fellowships, good MR training
4. Best body imaging departments for residents

Let's say location is irrelevant

 

[Radology]

Surely, someone has done 30+ Body fellowships and can answer this question??

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

Surely, someone has done 30+ Body fellowships and can answer this question??

LOL

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Go to the one with the biggest pedigree and watch groups want you so they can advertise they have a Harvard doctor.

 

[JoshSt]

I mean people miraculously seem to have trained and have first hand experience at 10+ IR and neuroradiology places whenever those places are ranked. Also people can confidently rank top residencies just based off their interviews and the internet.

I'm just trying to spark conversation.

 

[Radology]

In IR, you have renown gurus and program specific areas of expertise.

A single great attending can make you better trained than 90% of programs in IR. This isn't really true of diagnostic radiology.

In body, everything is essentially the same. Every big name program will have the same pathology, same access to new/emerging techniques, same massive faculty with a wide range of teaching styles.

This is why ranking body programs is a fools errand. What you see will be the same everywhere, so choose based on location and curriculum that fits your desired experience.

 

[Gadofosveset]

No, quite the opposite. I was just pleasantly surprised that there were a lot of nuances still to learn during my fellowship. Maybe just having a different programs mentality, but CT was still quite beneficial

Agree: confidence is not the same thing as competence. It's hard to convince someone of that, though. I wouldn't have been convinced as a resident.

It's a routine: at the beginning of the year a new crop of body fellows arrives who implicitly or explicitly express that they have nothing left to learn in US and CT and are only there for advanced body MRI. At the end of the year, they've changed their minds about US and CT.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

In IR, you have renown gurus and program specific areas of expertise.

A single great attending can make you better trained than 90% of programs in IR. This isn't really true of diagnostic radiology.

In body, everything is essentially the same. Every big name program will have the same pathology, same access to new/emerging techniques, same massive faculty with a wide range of teaching styles.

This is why ranking body programs is a fools errand. What you see will be the same everywhere, so choose based on location and curriculum that fits your desired experience.

I don't know about that. Some programs definitely see more zebra stuff more than others (like multi visceral transplant or liver elastography).

I highly doubt that all good names are equal either. Are Brigham and Womens completely comparable to say...Emory? Both are big names, but I am sure the research projects and teaching will be a bit different, so are the procedural aspect.

I don't know anything about body fellowship ranking myself, however, and that's the other thing, a really stupid thing.

That is, people who aren't specifically familliar with your field are gonna assume the bigger brand is better. People who aren't in the know are going to assume a guy matched into BWH for IR had a better app than a guy who matched into Rush or MCW while in reality it's probably the reverse. I certainly will keep assuming MGH or BWH are the big dogs in body unless someone can spill some bean about why I am wrong.

 

[qxrt]

People who aren't in the know are going to assume a guy matched into BWH for IR had a better app than a guy who matched into Rush or MCW while in reality it's probably the reverse.

Hmm...possible, but the opposite may as well be true. Rush/MCW are big in the IR world, but IR fellowship applicants are still drawn by the big names and coastal locations. And for good reason, since many hiring groups outside of Chicago and Boston are still probably more likely to hire someone from, say, MGH, than someone from Rush, just because the brand name is so strong. A big name in a highly desirable location with an average fellowship can actually be more competitive than a lesser-known-name program in a less-than-ideal location with a stellar reputation specific to IR (sound familiar? because the same is true for DR residency). Not everyone, even the most competitive applicants, is hustling to get into MCW or MCVI. It's safe to say that most people did not just rank programs in order of which one impressed them the most, but let location and lay-person prestige play a big role in their lists. Most fellow interviewees I ran into on the trail already had preconceived notions of where they would generally rank programs, even before interviewing at those places.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Hmm...possible, but the opposite may as well be true. Rush/MCW are big in the IR world, but IR fellowship applicants are still drawn by the big names and coastal locations. And for good reason, since many hiring groups outside of Chicago and Boston are still probably more likely to hire someone from, say, MGH, than someone from Rush, just because the brand name is so strong. A big name in a highly desirable location with an average fellowship can actually be more competitive than a lesser-known-name program in a less-than-ideal location with a stellar reputation specific to IR (sound familiar? because the same is true for DR residency). Not everyone, even the most competitive applicants, is hustling to get into MCW or MCVI. It's safe to say that most people did not just rank programs in order of which one impressed them the most, but let location and lay-person prestige play a big role in their lists. Most fellow interviewees I ran into on the trail already had preconceived notions of where they would generally rank programs, even before interviewing at those places.

I absolutely agree with you and this effect probably happen to a great degree. However, having obtained a top IR fellowship at a very hot location myself, I know that my credential isn't as strong as some of the folks I ran into on the trail. We are talking about people with pages and pages of research CV and their own grant, people with step 1 score higher than I've ever heard of or people who are president of RFS section of SIR. All those people matched to a fellowship that at a glance seem to be less prestigous than mine. So personally I am seeing competitive folks aiming for the Rush and MCW of the IR world.

 

[Radology]

Are Brigham and Womens completely comparable to say...Emory?

Brigham is better if you want to do procedures. Otherwise, brighams body fellowships are two year programs, making them probably the worst choice of any program out there for a typical trainee.. a second year of body training confers no advantage for marketability purposes. So, no, they are not comparable. Emory is 100x better for most people.

Some programs definitely see more zebra stuff more than others (like multi visceral transplant or liver elastography).

Every body fellowship worth a damn will give you plenty of transplant exposure and elastogtaphy.

That is, people who aren't specifically familliar with your field are gonna assume the bigger brand is better.

Hiring committees know this isn't true when comparing one big brand to another (go ask the attending folks on auntminnie, not other Med students). The goal is to get a job, not impress your grandmother.

I certainly will keep assuming MGH or BWH are the big dogs in body unless someone can spill some bean about why I am wrong.

Surprised to hear an IR person say this, considering MGH is far from the best IR department

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Brigham is better if you want to do procedures. Otherwise, brighams body fellowships are two year programs, making them probably the worst choice of any program out there for a typical trainee.. a second year of body training confers no advantage for marketability purposes. So, no, they are not comparable. Emory is 100x better for most people.



Every body fellowship worth a damn will give you plenty of transplant exposure and elastogtaphy.



Hiring committees know this isn't true when comparing one big brand to another (go ask the attending folks on auntminnie, not other Med students). The goal is to get a job, not impress your grandmother.



Surprised to hear an IR person say this, considering MGH is far from the best IR department

I mean, the whole "best fellowship" thing is really a mental masturbation as I am sure all body fellowship in larger institution train you well, and so is body.

Point is, I am trying to say that I am not familiar with body fellowship at all and people like me automatically assume that Harvard programs are the best for this reason.

FYI, MGH IR places extremely well at some of the tougher markets. I wouldn't be surprised if MGH places better than Rush or MCW in California. And despite everyone talking smack about the Harvard IR programs they fill near top of their list year after year and find people good jobs year after year.

Kinda doesn't matter how much PAD you get if your fellowship doesn't automatically guarantee good jobs.

 

[qxrt]

Hiring committees know this isn't true when comparing one big brand to another (go ask the attending folks on auntminnie, not other Med students). The goal is to get a job, not impress your grandmother.

Surprised to hear an IR person say this, considering MGH is far from the best IR department

Problem (or good thing maybe, because it means a program can't rest on its laurels) with reputation in IR is that it is very fast-paced, and people assume that whichever program is putting out a bunch of papers/presentations at SIR one year or has access to PAD is suddenly a "top" program. I've already had several interviewers/attendings at other top institutions just this past season comment that several programs that are bandied about here as "top" programs, like Brown or UCSD, are no longer as great as they used to be. On the flip side, UCLA IR used to be considered an average to even below average fellowship as recent as less than a decade ago, but now it is considered one of the top programs. It was pretty interesting to hear all the discrepancies between what Auntminnie people and what actual attendings at top institutions had to say about other programs. Opinions on IR fellowships change very frequently and quickly. Brand name does not. And if you think about it, it seems silly to put such large difference between IR fellows when most train you at least adequately in the fundamentals, fellowship is only one year, and you do much of your learning after fellowship when you become an attending anyway.

 

[Cognovi]

Otherwise, brighams body fellowships are two year programs, making them probably the worst choice of any program out there for a typical trainee.. a second year of body training confers no advantage for marketability purposes.

BWH abdominal imaging fellowship duration is normally 1 year. The 2-year fellowships offered are for added IR training and/or research. The program director for the latter asks before you commit whether you're really really sure you want to do a two-year fellowship when you could get by with one. They know what's up.

Clinical Fellowship in Abdominal Imaging and Intervention - BWH Department of Radiology

 

[FleeYeVegans]

As doctors, I believe we should be somewhat evidence based. If you're having difficulty figuring out what body fellowship to pick, I would recommend look at the RESIDENCY application page. Usually they have more information regarding # of procedures, CT scanners and magnets. See how many residents they have and see how many fellows they have which you would potentially compete with. Fellowships are way less competitive than residency and you will likely be offered a position on the spot or up to a week later. You may be relegated to simply asking the fellows if they feel overworked or take long naps everyday during interview. A big name place sounds great for job applications but if you don't get enough experience, you're going to feel the burn in private practice and likely be kicked down the road until you adapt. Each program is different and has its advantages. You need to shore up your weaknesses and find a suitable program that does that for you.