So what is your opinion?? Which is the best country to work in for a doctor/surgeon (and to also do a residency there??) in terms of working conditions, financial salaries, and a decent life??
Salary - Uk
Salary/cost of life - Netherlands
Decent lifestyle/Happy living - Italy/Spain
Working conditions - Sweden/France/Uk
Don't know anything about Germany
But it's all relative, while you can generally earn more in UK, a derm or a plastic guy will definitively earn a lot of money no matter where...the real problem in europe is the insane cost of life...
As for happy living, you are correct. Both Spain and Italy are absolutely awesome in that respect ( people, climate, culture, food, women). But wages for junior doctors/ residents are so low that you will probably not survive without a monthly check from your parents, at least that is what I heard from an Italian med student ( Spain is supposed to be slightly better, but still tough). Furthermore, I was told both Italy and Spain have an oversupply of young doctors. If I think about the girls I met in Italy and the food, it makes me want to cry that this route is practically closed...
I'm going to try and research as much as I can about Netherlands and Belgium (as recently, one intern told me that they are a top choice among specialists/surgeons).
I've heard good things about the medical system in the Netherlands. They take education of their residents very seriously, a good place to do your residency in and an even better place to be as a specialist. Sadly, it is incredibly(!) difficult to get a residency in the Netherlands, even for Dutch graduates. Easier once you have finished residency, though. Belgium is supposed to be easier.
Do you already have a certain specialty in mind ?
Hi i'm from Belgium and i can give you some pretty accurate data if you wish. I'll echo one of the first posters about lifestyle etc...
Finding a residency spot in Belgium is fairly easy: they'll take anybody as long as they work and they are cheap (aka residents: 2k after taxes/month). But after that finding a job as a surgeon isn't all that easy and the pay is no were near to what you'll make in the US: on average i would estimate earnings roughly at 6k/month after taxes (this wouldn't be strait out of residency).
IMHO the best countries in Europe are France and Switzerland which combine high pay and good location/weather/leisure... The UK offers higher salaries but much like Belgium and the Netherlands the weather sucks *****.
I'll be happy to answer more questions PM me even if you post your questions on this thread because i don't come around this part of the forum very often.
Does the UK offer higher salaries? It's relatively low in the gradaute starting salaries table.
Yes, I've also read a lot of good things about Ireland. Their economy is doing quite well. And it's a very highly favorable destination for doctors as the pay is very good (better than Switzerland or the Scandinavian countries).
HI!
I am a medical student from Italy, and as far as I am concerned, I think you are right on a lot of things, but recently even Italy has come up to terms on the finances of young doctors/residents.
They have raised the salarys, so that
it is now possible to live on them without your parents help.. even though to enter a specialization, is not an easy task, even for us, you have to be good, but what really matters is how much you have sucked up to your proffesors your 6 years, and who you know..
So as far as I can tell you, they living and monetary view have much improved, but the knowledge you need to have is all relative to who you know!
Yes, I've also read a lot of good things about Ireland. Their economy is doing quite well. And it's a very highly favorable destination for doctors as the pay is very good (better than Switzerland or the Scandinavian countries).
Then it's pretty much the same everywhere...
I wouldn't really say everywhere....only Western Europe...the Central and Eastern European countries are still quite behind.
One person has mentioned Norway? You won't find better working/living conditions in any other European country, heck in any country in the world!
Hi there, I am thinking of doing residency in Western Europe, to skip the 2 years of House Surgeon work that I have to do here in New Zealand after medical school. ( I want to start specializing as soon as possible to pay of my HUGE debts) Unfortunately, I speak fluently only English and Russian . Are my options only UK and Ireland or there are some countries in Western Europe that might have training programs in English (or at least mostly in English)? Thank you.
IMHO the best countries in Europe are France and Switzerland which combine high pay and good location/weather/leisure... The UK offers higher salaries but much like Belgium and the Netherlands the weather sucks *****.
Hi. I am a medical student in the Dominican Republic. I have two years left to get my M.D. here. I'm seriously considering living in France and studying for a year or two while I finish getting my ECFMG certificate for the U.S.. I tried to look up some information about postgrad studies in France, but the system is so new to me, I would really appreciate some guidance.
My understanding is that to obtain a degree after my study, most programs last 3 years, but there are some 2-year programs. I am still not clear on the names of the different programs. I found and download a brochure not too long ago, but my computer did me the favor of losing it. What I remember is that the one that appealed to me more had the word "complementaire" in the description and was two years as opposed to three. Does that sound familiar to you at all? Could you steer me somewhere that I can continue to get program specifics? After searching for several hours, I thought maybe it was the ministry of education site that had the document and not campusfrance, but I couldn't find what I was looking for.
The main complaint seems to be cost of living. Would it be feasible to live with a family while I study? Would that help to cut the cost of living down significantly? I've seen figures ranging from 400-700 euros a month, and I won't be able to afford that without receiving money. My understanding about employment options is still fuzzy. My best skill would be teaching English, but I imagine that would conflict with the hospital/class schedule. I'm 27 now. That means when I start in France, I'll be 29 and just over the age-limit to receive financial aid from the government. What other options does that leave me?
As for the language, my understanding is that I must have a FLE at level B2 or higher. I've taken classes at l'Alliance Française before, so I know that there exams have that nomination: A1, A2, etc. up to C2; but is that a different test? I was confused by the information I found so far. Which level do you think is best to have, and do you know where I could supplement my knowledge with medical French before applying?
I hadn't considered Switzerland before, but if I do go that route, I'd want to live in the French-speaking part. I do know that it is not a part of the EU, so I'll have to choose one or the other because I don't think I can afford to apply for two visas. What do you suggest? Any and all information that you can offer would be greatly appreciated. I know there's a lot of questions, but I want to do this right the first time, and I'm starting to work on my schedule of deadlines from now.
what's it like in switzerland? is it hard to adjust?
All I can say is stay away from Romania. I'm sure you figured as much.
First year residents from basically all specialties are being paid like 300$/month.
I know that for whatever country you plan to practice in, you're required to learn its language. I don't believe Switzerland would be hard to adjust to if you know French. Also, I read that Switzerland is actually even paying doctors to come to the country for a time being in hope that they will raise a family and live there.
Switzerland is one of the few European countries which is practically impossible to get into as a doctor. It's possible! but nevertheless a long haul with lots of paperwork and waiting. The Swiss are way too picky when it comes to choosing doctors from other countries (although as you said, language is one of the biggies and having that qualification is of some help.) But the process isn't all that easy.
Switzerland is also one of the few countries that pays its doctors very very well (like Norway, and Netherlands) but it's also one of the most expensive countries to live in.
...we're looking for a EU country that has a good balance with pay, lifestyle, and adjustment....
FYI: Neither Switzerland nor Norway are members of the EU.
Well Netherlands is a great option indeed. I really wanted to live there for a couple of years because I fell in love with the place....but my dreams have been shattered after having visited Amsterdam and Rotterdam recently. The condition for doctors is really quite tight as of now. They've set up way to many standards and made it so much more harder for international students to work in their country (Belgium is slightly better in this aspect but still not easy).
To be honest, the only countries that are opening their doors right now are the Scandinavian countries...especially Sweden and Norway (I'm not too sure about Denmark). Both Sweden and Norway have been recruiting lots of international graduates for quite some time now and they also pay well (although Norway pays a lot higher salaries than Sweden...the primary reason why most of the Scandinavian docs are moving to Norway).
Sweden: you do have to be fluent in Swedish but there is no official test that you need to take to prove your fluency. One's fluency is assessed through the medical exam and the interview..and then you need to go through the process of getting your medical degree validated and so on.
Norway: There is an official language exam (The Bergen's test) that one needs to pass in order to be able to work there. And then the same process of getting your medical degree accredited by the Norwegian medical board. The advantages of living there: a great country in most aspects: educational standards, raising a family, same environment, high quality of living, lots of seafood . Disadvantages: cold cold cold!, long, dark days (and long, bright days in the summer, so that will take some time to get used to), very very expensive (I mean literally, a bottle of beer costed me 8-10 EUR), very reserved people (to the point that they come off as being "cold and unfriendly"...especially to an American), and finally it's just very "isoloated" if you know what I mean.
And I've mentioned with Switzerland, they're way too tight in recruiting candidates, even from the EU. They do sort of give a higher preference to candidates from France, Luxembourg and perhaps Germany. The whole language requirement is also a bit complicated. If you're living in the French cantons, fluency of French will suffice...unfortunately the french-speaking population of Switzlerland already has many many doctors and they're still pouring in from France and Belgium. In the German speaking part...there are 2 other populations: the pure German speaking cantons...and the Swiss german speaking population. The major advantage here is that they are recruiting many doctors...the disadvantage: learning the language. It just takes so many years because Swiss German is only a spoken language...it has no written from (they use High German when writing). So you would technically be learning 2 different languages with a very little overlap. And then there are the Rumantsch and the Italian cantons but they just make up the minority.
Countries I would recommend: the Scandinavian ones (if can overcome all the negatives of living there). And perhaps you can also look outside Europe...but I'm assuming you want to live in Europe. Germany is another choice but the pay is not so good (even despite the recent increase in salaries).